Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us $3,400 per month for bandwidth bills alone, and since we don't believe in shoving popup ads to our registered users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
«108 »
  • Post
  • Reply
DreamShipWrecked
Jan 11, 2013

Things could be going better


Mordja posted:

I think it's going more for a Witcher but historical type thing than a M&B.

Pretty much this, if you were one of the guards singing to himself in front of large buildings. You aren't the hero of the story, you're just Some Dude with a grudge that occasionally does mercenary work in large battles.

I'm intrigued by this game because sim games always interest me, and the idea that you are treated by citizens not only by what you wear, but also how shiny and clean your armor is, is pretty neat. The historical focus will be something, since medieval life was pretty boring for the common serf. It also doesn't explain how populations are going to work; if you break into someone's house and kill them, is the house just empty forever? It'd be pretty weird for simulation if there was just someone back the next day running the same script, but it's likely that is how it will work.


Captain Oblivious posted:

Hes an alt right gamergater so people are hesitant to give money or the benefit of the doubt to a transparently bad person.

The whole historical realism argument for not including women thing also doesn’t really withstand any kind of scrutiny because the game already isn’t realistic on a number of fronts, the portrayal of combat probably the biggest offender. This game does not depict anything resembling actual 14th century combat. So you have to ask yourself why is that (pretty significant) historical inaccuracy okay but not, say, playable women?

aw gently caress, why are nerds such poo poo people

I did notice that the combat is hardly realistic as well, they put a lot of ad space in with how the fighting is "based on real techniques", but sword-and-board combat just was not as common as most media depicts it. Teaching someone to fight with a sword requires training. Teaching someone to fight with a spear is a matter of "take this and put the pointy end in the other guy". This is especially true for large battles, where the majority of the plebs fighting would just be using spears or something close to them.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

SlightlyMad
Jun 7, 2015


DreamShipWrecked posted:


I did notice that the combat is hardly realistic as well, they put a lot of ad space in with how the fighting is "based on real techniques", but sword-and-board combat just was not as common as most media depicts it. Teaching someone to fight with a sword requires training. Teaching someone to fight with a spear is a matter of "take this and put the pointy end in the other guy". This is especially true for large battles, where the majority of the plebs fighting would just be using spears or something close to them.

You are partly right in my uninformed opinion, since polearms were the primary weapon for armies of the time, but grave finds show plenty of sword and board action did take place as well. I have seen the game feature polearms, axes and maces too, it is not all swords all the time. As a counterpoint to how unrealistic you think the combat is, a historical european martial arts guy commented that at least compared to other games this one gets it "closer" to reality than most. It was on a youtube video by Skallagrim, talking about the Beta version. I can not judge personally either way, I am not a martial arts historian. For all I know we could all be wrong in our assumptions, historians included.

Captain Oblivious
Oct 12, 2007
Probation
Can't post for 3 days!


DreamShipWrecked posted:

Pretty much this, if you were one of the guards singing to himself in front of large buildings. You aren't the hero of the story, you're just Some Dude with a grudge that occasionally does mercenary work in large battles.

I'm intrigued by this game because sim games always interest me, and the idea that you are treated by citizens not only by what you wear, but also how shiny and clean your armor is, is pretty neat. The historical focus will be something, since medieval life was pretty boring for the common serf. It also doesn't explain how populations are going to work; if you break into someone's house and kill them, is the house just empty forever? It'd be pretty weird for simulation if there was just someone back the next day running the same script, but it's likely that is how it will work.


aw gently caress, why are nerds such poo poo people

I did notice that the combat is hardly realistic as well, they put a lot of ad space in with how the fighting is "based on real techniques", but sword-and-board combat just was not as common as most media depicts it. Teaching someone to fight with a sword requires training. Teaching someone to fight with a spear is a matter of "take this and put the pointy end in the other guy". This is especially true for large battles, where the majority of the plebs fighting would just be using spears or something close to them.

Yeah the time period this game depicts is well into where medieval warfare was “pikespikesPIKESPIKES” and the sword was primarily a thrusting weapon not a Heroic Fantasy slashing weapon.

gasman
Mar 21, 2013

hey now

Pikes and polearms are battlefield weapons that you'd not run around with on a daily basis.
Swords are easier to lug around, while you do ye olde fetch quests and stuff.

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May

Yep, hence the term side arm. Dudes didn't just carry pikes or halberds around- though a few of the gameplay videos to depict "pitched" battles where the presence of such weapons would make more sense.

Phi230
Feb 2, 2016
Probation
Can't post for 7 days!


One of the gameplay videos has the player getting owned by a halberd

DreamShipWrecked
Jan 11, 2013

Things could be going better


SlightlyMad posted:

You are partly right in my uninformed opinion, since polearms were the primary weapon for armies of the time, but grave finds show plenty of sword and board action did take place as well. I have seen the game feature polearms, axes and maces too, it is not all swords all the time. As a counterpoint to how unrealistic you think the combat is, a historical european martial arts guy commented that at least compared to other games this one gets it "closer" to reality than most. It was on a youtube video by Skallagrim, talking about the Beta version. I can not judge personally either way, I am not a martial arts historian. For all I know we could all be wrong in our assumptions, historians included.

Mostly it's a question of how the damage model will work. You cannot fight an unarmored person and an armored one the same way, slashing might work against a dude in a tunic but all you are going to do is dull your blade against armor. So swinging against rando bandits with your sword might make sense, but how are they going to attack you if you are in full plate? Nothing but attempts to pierce the mail with stabbing attacks, as they should? But that would break the whole combat model. But if they have it so sword swings penetrate, then you are off model with armor. Hell, even knights didn't use swords as their primary weapons, they were either using lances, poleaxes, or just daggers. Swords were solidly Plan B, they carried them but they weren't the primary weapons. You did not want to go toe to toe with another heavily armored knight in a swordfight in a real battle because then some dirt-caked serf would stab you in the rear end with his pike.

Hell, if a person is in full plate the easiest thing for a bandit to do is to just shove you over and stab you in the neck with a dagger while you are on the ground. Armored plate fighters are like tanks, they either fight one on one or they do it with light unit support.

I do have some hope because the armor-on-armor fight in the trailer showed the PC beating the poo poo out the other guy with a mace, which is a solid plan. But idk how its going to work out with just regular enemies.

DreamShipWrecked fucked around with this message at Feb 9, 2018 around 19:53

corn in the bible
Jun 5, 2004

Oh no oh god it's all true!


SlightlyMad posted:

I have come across some remarks about controversies regarding the main character being male and everybody in the game being white europeans, but I don't get what the problem is if the game aims for historical realism in those regards. If the lead dev dabbles in historical re-enactments of vikings that does not mean he's automatically some nazi sympathizer either. Seems like there's a risk of jumping into conclusions, as is commonplace on the net. I will give the benefit of the doubt since I don't know either way what the details of that are. There was also some chatter about DLC content where a female lead character might get introduced if the game sold well or something. Can not confirm or deny that one.

In that time period, women would have been in a radically different role in society than nowadays, and Europe in general was not racially diverse either. If you had been of middle eastern appearance or such, you'd probably get skewered for suspicion of being a "Heathen Saracen", I'd think.

Now, if you had a game taking place 10,000 years ago the ethnicities would have been wildly different again, with dark skinned blue eyed Europeans running around. Sometimes I wish there was a game that portrayed prehistory accurately, but that is another discussion. There was a fascinating discovery recently of British prehistoric people that goes into detail about dark skin having been common in the ice age or post-ice age Europe. Us "whites" are recent mutants it seems. And we have Neanderthals in our ancestral family tree. Cross-breeding, aww yiss. Makes the racists all the more ignorant, doesn't it?

Anyways, I hope the game is good. Not trying to derail the conversation in any form. I'd appreciate if the discussion remains civil and factual as much as possible.

you and also the game dev know nothing about history, hth

Skoll
Jul 26, 2013

Oh You'll Love My Toxic Love


Grimey Drawer

History sperging aside, will there be a way to play in third person?

Ulio
Feb 17, 2011



I am pretty sure it is first person because third person would probably break the type of combat they are aiming for.

exquisite tea
Apr 21, 2007

Carly shook her glass, willing the ice to melt. "You still haven't told me what the mission is."

She leaned forward. "We are going to assassinate the bad men of Hollywood."

Not only is it first-person, the type of helmet you're wearing obscures your field of vision.

Skoll
Jul 26, 2013

Oh You'll Love My Toxic Love


Grimey Drawer

lol if you won't be able to mod in third person. FPS extended melee is never fuckin fun.

DreamShipWrecked
Jan 11, 2013

Things could be going better


The reason why there aren't girls to play as or fight is because of a six hour coffee binge where the lead designer and armor historian had a heated debate over boob armor.

Skoll posted:

lol if you won't be able to mod in third person. FPS extended melee is never fuckin fun.

I'm sure it will be modded in, people are already working on total conversion mods for a game that isn't even on the market yet

corn in the bible
Jun 5, 2004

Oh no oh god it's all true!


Skoll posted:

lol if you won't be able to mod in third person. FPS extended melee is never fuckin fun.

Yeah but I;m sure this game will be goud

Vahakyla
May 3, 2013

My battleboo just said "yeah, us. Ma'am. We'll be going to war. Not you."


SlightlyMad posted:

I have come across some remarks about controversies regarding the main character being male and everybody in the game being white europeans, but I don't get what the problem is if the game aims for historical realism in those regards. If the lead dev dabbles in historical re-enactments of vikings that does not mean he's automatically some nazi sympathizer either. Seems like there's a risk of jumping into conclusions, as is commonplace on the net. I will give the benefit of the doubt since I don't know either way what the details of that are. There was also some chatter about DLC content where a female lead character might get introduced if the game sold well or something. Can not confirm or deny that one.

In that time period, women would have been in a radically different role in society than nowadays, and Europe in general was not racially diverse either. If you had been of middle eastern appearance or such, you'd probably get skewered for suspicion of being a "Heathen Saracen", I'd think.

Now, if you had a game taking place 10,000 years ago the ethnicities would have been wildly different again, with dark skinned blue eyed Europeans running around. Sometimes I wish there was a game that portrayed prehistory accurately, but that is another discussion. There was a fascinating discovery recently of British prehistoric people that goes into detail about dark skin having been common in the ice age or post-ice age Europe. Us "whites" are recent mutants it seems. And we have Neanderthals in our ancestral family tree. Cross-breeding, aww yiss. Makes the racists all the more ignorant, doesn't it?

Anyways, I hope the game is good. Not trying to derail the conversation in any form. I'd appreciate if the discussion remains civil and factual as much as possible.

Yeah except every day we discover more and more female influence and participation in societies of past now that "white chauvinist rich men" aren't the only style of a historian publishing research. Naturally the role of men dominating society in many ways is true, but that is no reason why we can't have believeable and well-fitting female characters in games we deem realistic and historical. From Boudicca, Cleopatra, Theodora, to Katerina, we have plenty of leadership figures that are well known, and the rank and file surely had more female adventurers and warriors than just the ones we know now, but there might be a good reason why their stories weren't told. You know, with rich white chauvinist men being in charge in Europe and all. Can you imagine how interesting a game like Kingdom Come could be with a female character that faces opposition in every act and discussion she faces, and not only fights against sword and pike, but also the raging male supremacy of the time? That'd be pretty baller imho. There's also a really good argument made for giving minority and other-than-straight guys and gals the chance to identify with their characters, and not stomp all over games with sparkly clean straight white guys in the name of "biotruths and history" that don't seem to hold against closer observation anyway.

Ever heard of Makouraino? Matilda of Tuscany? Jeanne Hachette? loving Isabella of France? Queen Rudrama Devi? Blanche of Castile? Razia Sultana? Mercadera? Matilda of Boulogne? Isabel of Conches?




Yeah.

Vahakyla fucked around with this message at Feb 9, 2018 around 21:02

OutofSight
May 4, 2017


Vahakyla posted:

Yeah except every day we discover more and more female influence and participation in societies of past now that "white chauvinist rich men" aren't the only style of a historian publishing research. Naturally the role of men dominating society in many ways is true, but that is no reason why we can't have believeable and well-fitting female characters in games we deem realistic and historical. From Boudicca, Cleopatra, Theodora, to Katerina, we have plenty of leadership figures that are well known, and the rank and file surely had more female adventurers and warriors than just the ones we know now, but there might be a good reason why their stories weren't told. You know, with rich white chauvinist men being in charge in Europe and all. Can you imagine how interesting a game like Kingdom Come could be with a female character that faces opposition in every act and discussion she faces, and not only fights against sword and pike, but also the raging male supremacy of the time? That'd be pretty baller imho. There's also a really good argument made for giving minority and other-than-straight guys and gals the chance to identify with their characters, and not stomp all over games with sparkly clean straight white guys in the name of "biotruths and history" that don't seem to hold against closer observation anyway.

Ever heard of Makouraino? Matilda of Tuscany? Jeanne Hachette? loving Isabella of France? Queen Rudrama Devi? Blanche of Castile? Razia Sultana? Mercadera? Matilda of Boulogne?

I would be important to point out, that all these figures are women of wealth and upper class. Persons in position of powers and influential networks.

What if little Katina of Bushwack Ville, Bohemia never heard of these inspiring persons because like a lot of people in the lower classes, regardless of gender, she neither can write or read and only hears mostly gossip from the next bigger town?
Being a woman of low class in a medival simulation can be a terrifying experience.

I like your pitched game concept, but the execution would face so many gameplay problems.

Pablo Nergigante
Apr 16, 2002



OutofSight posted:

I like your pitched game concept, but the execution would face so many gameplay problems.

Would it?

OutofSight
May 4, 2017



Think of social stats in old tabletop roleplay games. Start out as a daughter or wife of a peasant farmer. Your lord owns your land and you can't leave. You have to decide if you want to flee to the uprising new cities, to get rid of your bonds ("Stadtluft macht frei.")and be a low wage pauper or join the local peasant rebellion, which will be brutally beaten down by the troops of the local lord. Getting ambushed and raped by local bandits in the woods in this time of strife as optional horror encounter.
I admit i exaggerated the gruesome setting a bit.

An interesting experience, but not fun for most "power fantasy" players.

Skoll
Jul 26, 2013

Oh You'll Love My Toxic Love


Grimey Drawer

Playing as a peasant female in medieval society is something I didn't know I wanted because it's 2018 and I'm woke as gently caress. Furthermore,

Pablo Nergigante
Apr 16, 2002



OutofSight posted:

Think of social stats in old tabletop roleplay games. Start out as a daughter or wife of a peasant farmer. Your lord owns your land and you can't leave. You have to decide if you want to flee to the uprising new cities, to get rid of your bonds ("Stadtluft macht frei.")and be a low wage pauper or join the local peasant rebellion, which will be brutally beaten down by the troops of the local lord. Getting ambushed and raped by local bandits in the woods in this time of strife as optional horror encounter.
I admit i exaggerated the gruesome setting a bit.

An interesting experience, but not fun for most "power fantasy" players.




Skoll posted:

Playing as a peasant female in medieval society is something I didn't know I wanted because it's 2018 and I'm woke as gently caress. Furthermore,

Heh,

corn in the bible
Jun 5, 2004

Oh no oh god it's all true!


OutofSight posted:

Think of social stats in old tabletop roleplay games. Start out as a daughter or wife of a peasant farmer. Your lord owns your land and you can't leave. You have to decide if you want to flee to the uprising new cities, to get rid of your bonds ("Stadtluft macht frei.")and be a low wage pauper or join the local peasant rebellion, which will be brutally beaten down by the troops of the local lord. Getting ambushed and raped by local bandits in the woods in this time of strife as optional horror encounter.
I admit i exaggerated the gruesome setting a bit.

An interesting experience, but not fun for most "power fantasy" players.

ah yes, the popular "everyone was constantly raped" idea of the past. big fan of game of thrones here huh

corn in the bible
Jun 5, 2004

Oh no oh god it's all true!


Also who gives a poo poo, they clearly don't actually care about accuracy cause they think people used swords to cut people lol

Gobblecoque
Sep 6, 2011


Vahakyla posted:

Yeah except every day we discover more and more female influence and participation in societies of past now that "white chauvinist rich men" aren't the only style of a historian publishing research. Naturally the role of men dominating society in many ways is true, but that is no reason why we can't have believeable and well-fitting female characters in games we deem realistic and historical. From Boudicca, Cleopatra, Theodora, to Katerina, we have plenty of leadership figures that are well known, and the rank and file surely had more female adventurers and warriors than just the ones we know now, but there might be a good reason why their stories weren't told. You know, with rich white chauvinist men being in charge in Europe and all. Can you imagine how interesting a game like Kingdom Come could be with a female character that faces opposition in every act and discussion she faces, and not only fights against sword and pike, but also the raging male supremacy of the time? That'd be pretty baller imho. There's also a really good argument made for giving minority and other-than-straight guys and gals the chance to identify with their characters, and not stomp all over games with sparkly clean straight white guys in the name of "biotruths and history" that don't seem to hold against closer observation anyway.

Ever heard of Makouraino? Matilda of Tuscany? Jeanne Hachette? loving Isabella of France? Queen Rudrama Devi? Blanche of Castile? Razia Sultana? Mercadera? Matilda of Boulogne? Isabel of Conches?

I agree that a game where you play as a peasant woman rather than a peasant man could be cool but you're pretty much just naming rich, powerful (and mostly white) women. Sounds like Crusader Kings 2 might be more up your alley.

Vahakyla
May 3, 2013

My battleboo just said "yeah, us. Ma'am. We'll be going to war. Not you."


Gobblecoque posted:

I agree that a game where you play as a peasant woman rather than a peasant man could be cool but you're pretty much just naming rich, powerful (and mostly white) women. Sounds like Crusader Kings 2 might be more up your alley.

There’s probably a good argumen to be made about a local ravaging bandit leader lady not being recorded as diligently as her wealthier equivalents.

gasman
Mar 21, 2013

hey now

corn in the bible posted:

Also who gives a poo poo, they clearly don't actually care about accuracy cause they think people used swords to cut people lol

Care to elaborate?

Vahakyla
May 3, 2013

My battleboo just said "yeah, us. Ma'am. We'll be going to war. Not you."


gasman posted:

Care to elaborate?

You ain’t cutting through plate armor like you do in movies.

Skoll
Jul 26, 2013

Oh You'll Love My Toxic Love


Grimey Drawer

gasman posted:

Care to elaborate?

You stab motherfuckers with swords.

Pablo Nergigante
Apr 16, 2002



Nintendo

corn in the bible
Jun 5, 2004

Oh no oh god it's all true!


also two-handed swords were like big expensive clubs, you beat people up with them

Vahakyla
May 3, 2013

My battleboo just said "yeah, us. Ma'am. We'll be going to war. Not you."


corn in the bible posted:

also two-handed swords were like big expensive clubs, you beat people up with them

And there are many that weren't designed to be very sharp on the cutting edge in the first place, just at the tip.

OutofSight
May 4, 2017



corn in the bible posted:

ah yes, the popular "everyone was constantly raped" idea of the past. big fan of game of thrones here huh

I apologize. I was aware it is a cheap "grimdark medival age" trope.

I wonder if i could write in a catch-22 and the city, you try to flee to, is ridden by the bubonic plague.

OutofSight fucked around with this message at Feb 9, 2018 around 21:40

gasman
Mar 21, 2013

hey now

Vahakyla posted:

You ain’t cutting through plate armor like you do in movies.

I haven't seen any gameplay of someone doing that.

Mordja
Apr 26, 2014



A quick google on thrust v cut is

quote:

While the great diversity of cutting and thrusting swords around the world testify to the importance of both cutting and thrusting in fencing, there is something of a pervasive myth of a supposed "superiority" of point over edge in swordplay, and predominantly in European swordplay. Yet, with only a few minor exceptions, prior to the early 18th century there was no "cut versus thrust" debate among Western swordsmen.

Many swords of the world were in actuality compromise designs that attempted to blend and combine in one weapon those elements ideally best for slashing and stabbing. There are many, many possible design solutions. There are types of swords with straight backs yet curved edges, and others that widen toward the point but then taper sharply. In most cultures acutely pointed cut-and-thrust swords existed side by side with more dedicated cutting blades for centuries with neither replacing the other.

The thrust and cut alike were common, even fundamental fighting techniques among warrior cultures...
From http://www.thearma.org/essays/thrus...ml#.Wn4UcedG2Ul

Like no kidding you're not cutting through plate armor with a short sword, but you'd sure slash at a guy wearing a shirt why not.

gasman
Mar 21, 2013

hey now

Mordja posted:

A quick google on thrust v cut is

From http://www.thearma.org/essays/thrus...ml#.Wn4UcedG2Ul

Like no kidding you're not cutting through plate armor with a short sword, but you'd sure slash at a guy wearing a shirt why not.

And that's what they're trying to simulate according to this video at least: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBDzczSqEk4

Phi230
Feb 2, 2016
Probation
Can't post for 7 days!


A lot of people complaining seem to have not watched any gameplay.

also to the poster above, kinda hard to make a game with a female protagonist facing a male dominated society when your lead developer is a fuckin chud

Phi230
Feb 2, 2016
Probation
Can't post for 7 days!


This is a trailer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N14tTn01qEo

gasman
Mar 21, 2013

hey now

Yea, that's... I don't know.

OutofSight
May 4, 2017


gasman posted:

Yea, that's... I don't know.


I guess they go for some eastern european humor in the trailer and in the game itself (intense metabolsim mechanics).

I don't know, if this can be charming in its own way... or just a very eastern european game i don't get.

OutofSight fucked around with this message at Feb 9, 2018 around 22:16

Phi230
Feb 2, 2016
Probation
Can't post for 7 days!


For those who don't know, you can poo poo in this game. and you can also read a book while you are taking a poo poo. I know that if you eat too much food you will get "bloated" and your stamina will be lowered because of this you will get tired quicker. so say if I eat a lot more than I was supposed to and get bloated, will taking a poo poo alleviate this and return my stamina back to normal? what other benefits does taking a dump have in the game?

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Dandywalken
Feb 11, 2014

I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation. I actually named my daughter after the Pink ranger and will provide proof if challenged.


Yeah ugly guys stream looks much better than the earlier videos did. Definitely more intrigued now.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply
«108 »