"Lesser of two evils" voting

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > "Lesser of two evils" voting

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

i'm of the opinion that voting for the lesser evil enables said evil to maintain and/or grow its control over the dem party. for example, the dem party apparatus being used to block progressive candidates and help manchins and emmanuels be elected instead. the manchins and emmanuels of the dem party then use what influence you give them by electing them to make sure you will never get a choice but them.

# ¿ Feb 14, 2018 00:37

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# ¿ Apr 23, 2024 21:06

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

CarlCX posted:

It is not only possible but ethical to serve both continua simultaneously. Be constantly dissatisfied with your political parties, get involved with your politics, agitate constantly for change and support independent options, especially in local elections that give them a much better chance for success. Hell, agitate for changing polling laws and systems to make them more favorable to a wider subset of options. Serve your conscience.

When the flawed systems that currently exist narrow down to a subset of suboptimal choices that do not serve your conscience, support the candidate who is closest to your ideology, which is hopefully not sympathetic to monstrous bigotry, cruelty and inequality. That closeness may come down to "is marginally less likely to inflict suffering" and you may find this personally dissatisfying. You are right to be dissatisfied. You should vote for it anyway. It is the better choice for the world outside of your head.

disagreed. in a better world you would be right, but the sad fact is that those "suboptimal" choices reinforce themselves. they become incumbents with institutional advantages protecting them from being primaried, they work to help make sure more suboptimal candidates are elected and perpetuate their ideology, and they do not respond to your calls for change. see for example, one joe manchin. he yelled at activists to primary him if they wanted things to change cause he certainly wasn't going to. one's now running, but she has an extremely uphill battle against her cause manchin has massive institutional advantages in the dem party, despite being about as far from what the dem party is supposed to represent as possible.

# ¿ Feb 14, 2018 00:49

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

awesmoe posted:

but at that point in the voting process, your options are someone who will implement some of her hateful policies or someone who will implement all of her hateful policies
or you don't vote, and then the greater evil wins and things are worse (see trump, donald)
it would be great if those weren't the outcomes

those are the only outcomes because lesser evilism is rewarded with votes. you can't expect things to change if the lesser evil can always count on your vote as long as they're a hair away from the greater evil. that's why macron and co feel free to implement lepen's fascist policies.

it's not like the fascists won big time or anything in france, or the right did well in the election. in fact, lrem swept most of the seats. so why are they implementing fascist policy unless they feel they can get away with it because.... they're the lesser evil

Condiv fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Feb 14, 2018

# ¿ Feb 14, 2018 00:58

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

Owlofcreamcheese posted:

It's stupid to just call everything that doesn't agree with you "evil" then pack up your brain and stop thinking.

i don't think he said that at all

# ¿ Feb 14, 2018 01:09

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

CarlCX posted:

What you're saying only works if, in response to losing their elections, the left (with an extremely generous use of "left" for most actual left parties in the first world right now, but pragmatically speaking) corrects to the left in the event of lost elections. They generally correct to the right, because the right won the election and that presents a path forward that's more likely to lead to victory next time, aided by their having far more financial incentive to appeal right rather than left.

I feel like you're hitting a hard stop with the "in a better world" logic you were talking about in response to me. In a better world, we kick the bastards out and only good candidates make it to general elections where in the current world we are inevitably forced into bad choices. Punishing lovely left-wing parties for not being left enough by tacitly supporting right-wing parties in general elections does not effectively send the message that they need to move left or die, but it does give those right-wing parties the opportunity to entrench their own power and make it harder for left candidates to succeed--the same exact thing a Manchin does, but with even more negative impact for the rest of the community.

how do you explain lrem shifting right when the right hadn't won recently? and not voting for the lesser evil isn't tacitly supporting evil. sorry

if the supposed lesser evil doesn't responds to losing by shifting right and responds to winning by shifting right, then by voting for and entrenching the lesser evil you are enabling their continual shift right. the fact of the matter is that with less people in power, lovely parties like the dems are easier to take control of. this has been evidenced by more and more dems moving left (at the very least rhetorically) since hillary's loss, and this evidence runs counter to your idea that the dems will just shift right in response to trump. some will (like manchin, schumer, etc.) but they're additional dead wood that needs clearing out, not coddling.

Condiv fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Feb 14, 2018

# ¿ Feb 14, 2018 01:40

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

roomforthetuna posted:

The problem with voting for the lesser of two evils is the Overton window still gets shifted further in the direction of evil every cycle.
The problem with voting for nothing is the Overton window still gets shifted in the direction of evil, and by more than it would have been had you voted for the lesser evil, assuming everyone else's votes are between the big two. And the risk of the greater evil winning in the short term is also increased by the non-vote.
Voting for a third party stands some chance of shifting the Overton window towards that party's policies, even if that party's existence acts as a spoiler and lets the greater evil win. Perhaps especially if it acts as a spoiler. In the short term the risk of the greater evil winning is still increased.

I'm in favor of the longer term goal that suggests voting for a third party, because I've witnessed the effect of the Overton window moving to almost exclusively Neoliberal options in several countries, and it sucks. Voting for the lesser evil doesn't even prevent the greater evil from winning, half the time, so the "protest vote" in the hope that maybe later the flow of poo poo can be stopped seems more valuable than a vote to maybe weakly slow the flow of poo poo.

A different voting system sure would be nice though, so I could fruitlessly vote both to shift the Overton window in my preferred direction and weakly slow the flow of poo poo.

it's important to always vote, even if it's for a third party. not voting doesn't help anything. also fighting to move things to the left is very important.

# ¿ Feb 14, 2018 01:44

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

CarlCX posted:

I'm not going to even pretend to be knowledgeable enough about French politics to render an educated opinion on the history of its political spectrum, but I would say the worldwide wave of nationalism and extremism borne on the back of a number of global propaganda campaigns that have successfully moved the window of political dialogue farther to the right than it's been in decades is giving a bunch of opportunistic politicians chances to run to the new right-aligned center, particularly when LREM is rallying around a dude like Macron who, regardless of campaign rhetoric, was tied as hell to corporatism and banking. Victory and loss impact political movement, but they're not the only things that matter.

that's true, but loss can clearly shift the leftwing parties leftward, as evidenced by what's been happening in the dem party since hillary's loss, and what's been happening in labour in the UK despite corbyn losing. it's not the only thing that has to be done to shift a party leftward, outside organization is clearly necessary as well, but it's clearly necessary as the lesser evil is politically stronger when enabled with victories.

quote:

If there's no feasible peripheral option and the only realistic choice for winning an election is one of the two big parties, and one is demonstrably less evil than another, if you are arguing for people to not support the less evil choice in favor of a morally good but pragmatically infeasible choice you are tacitly supporting the more evil one. You can also be trying to achieve the entirely noble goal of sending a message and trying to enact positive change. The two aren't mutually exclusive, as you yourself pointed out by agreeing with roomforthetuna:

this logic doesn't work at all. it boils down to trying to claim third party voters are intrinsically supporting both the lesser evil and the greater evil at the same time, and that's clearly not the case. check your reasoning.

republican voters can make the exact same claim you're making, that a third party voter is intrinsically supporting the dems, and with the same amount of validity. that both sides can make the claim shows that it's not really logically valid, just sad griping that not everyone you think should be supporting your choice is with you.

Condiv fucked around with this message at 11:08 on Feb 14, 2018

# ¿ Feb 14, 2018 10:56

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

Baron Porkface posted:

Social media wasn't as prevalent back then and it was 10 eyars ago, I could just not be remembering.

Are you able to quantify the anti-obama propaganda?

hillaryis44

# ¿ Feb 15, 2018 10:00

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

Owlofcreamcheese posted:

Yeah right, they mostly turn out for smugly telling you they didn't vote and for rushing into every conversation they can find to parrot every republican fox news talking point they can manage to sand down enough to pretend they are saying it because they are actually so woke and leftist

Meeting evidence-founded argument with unfounded accusations of leftists being crypto-republicans is not a particularly effective strategy

# ¿ Feb 15, 2018 13:46

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

Owlofcreamcheese posted:

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/878946025662296064

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/782264189574377472

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/727791165341356032

etc

is trump supposed to be leftist according to you? cause he asked for evidence of leftists parroting fox news talking points

# ¿ Feb 15, 2018 20:45

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

Owlofcreamcheese posted:

I agree with the left because I am on the left. The people who are not on the left is anyone who does not vote democrat, who try to stop anyone else from voting democrat or seem to display even the slightly hesitation in being able to instantly name that the democratic version of any policy is almost without exception incalculably better than the republican policy. If you ask about voting for the lesser of two evils and come to any conclusion but "I'm gonna vote democratic, of course, DUH" you are not on the left.

dude, you think uber is good for labor.

i think it's a bit early to be saying you're on the left

# ¿ Feb 18, 2018 03:10

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

Owlofcreamcheese posted:

I think that the driver getting 80% of the fare and the company getting 20% is much closer to an ideal system than a driver getting a wage.

Nothing else in the US social system or labor laws supports that model very well so generally the gig economy is pretty awful (no one gives you insurance, there is no safety net if you don't make enough, ect). But the ideal company in utopia would run way more like uber than yellow cab.

no, a wage is better because then the driver isn't hurt if business is slow or the company hires too many drivers.

# ¿ Feb 18, 2018 03:28

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

Ytlaya posted:

1. Democratic politicians don't necessarily know why people didn't "take the deal" (that is, vote). Some people may have chosen to "reject the deal" because they weren't left enough, while others may have chosen to reject it because they're pro-choice or whatever.

that's why you do vote, just for good candidates instead of manchins

# ¿ Feb 18, 2018 20:05

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

https://twitter.com/yashar/status/968242634526547968

support the lesser of two evils unless she speaks out against a serial sexual offender

# ¿ Feb 27, 2018 00:54

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

the lesser of two evils strategy is a loser's strategy that just ensures the democrats continue to become more and more evil

besides, centrists don't even bother to adhere to the lesser of two evils strategy, because they want to try to ensure the party doesn't drift left. that's why they abandon and torpedo certain dems in the general despite them being better than a republican. why shouldn't we adopt their tactics to make sure the party doesn't drift rightwards?

# ¿ Feb 27, 2018 21:12

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

i'd also like to know why people should bother to vote the "lesser" evil when the DCCC is doing everything in their power at the moment to make sure that evil is the only choice come the GE? in what world is it not enabling the dems to grow more evil if I vote for dem candidates that would be comfortable in the republican party that the DCCC is trying to shove down our throats? how does voting for union busting corporate lawyers doing anything but helping the dems grow more evil? why should we reward the DCCC trying to act like kingmakers?

# ¿ Feb 27, 2018 21:20

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

Potato Salad posted:

Brings us back to the need to close the chair and rules vote gap.

This also sounds like a reason to register people D where counter-democratic closed primaries still exist.

i think voting for poo poo dems in the general doesn't help close that gap

also, i agree, we should push as hard as we can in the primaries and organize outside the elections to try to push the dems left. i just don't see how voting for lovely dems forced on us in the general does anything to help push the dems left, or help much of anything at all

# ¿ Feb 27, 2018 21:55

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

Potato Salad posted:

I look forward to the ~~concentration camps~~ detention centers

You aren't dragging bad Dems left or ousting them by disengaging. The "cut me a better deal" mentality doesn't work. HTH.

if dems actually care to prevent that kind of stuff they can choose not to kill voter turnout by rigging their own primaries can't they?

# ¿ Feb 27, 2018 21:59

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

Potato Salad posted:

The gently caress?

We will only eliminate closed primaries and superdelegates by force, not by sidelining ourselves.

how is voting for the people keeping primaries closed a show of force potato salad?

# ¿ Feb 27, 2018 22:01

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

tbh i agree with potato salad. it's horrible that trump is going to build concentration camps with the help of centrist democrats. where i disagree with him is his bizarre idea that voting for more centrists will help stop that in any way

# ¿ Feb 27, 2018 22:08

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

Potato Salad posted:

Our political revolution was never about winning the White House alone. It was about building a movement of millions of Americans uniting to upend the status quo and transform our country.

It is about fighting and winning, not just in blue states and districts, but also in places Donald Trump won. Because the continued decline of the middle class, grotesque levels of income and wealth inequality, disastrous trade policies and an inadequate educational system affect them, too.

-Bernie about 8 minutes ago

yes, and how is voting for centrists that will help continue the decline of the middle and lower classes, encourage grotesque levels of income and wealth inequality, and force disastrous trade policies and gut our education systems fighting and winning? seems more like giving in and losing to me.

# ¿ Feb 27, 2018 22:19

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

Potato Salad posted:

"At least losing this time around resulted in lip support for a bill that can't pass before 2020."

Do you deny that the ACA is going to cost us ~25B more this year despite covering fewer people?

lip support and the possibility of it happening in 2020 vs "nope, it'll never ever ever happen"

i think "maybe in 4 years" is a lot of progress past "never"

# ¿ Feb 27, 2018 22:23

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

Potato Salad posted:

Winning it for the capacity to eliminate superdelegates, get a progressive into the chair. I'd like to see a chair to prioritizes support for local footsoldiering, which more than anything in the last year has turned people out.

how is turning out for centrists that are against all of these things going to help with any of this?

# ¿ Feb 27, 2018 22:33

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

i'm not sure how you consider "vote for the guy who wants to prevent reform" a pragmatic approach to reforming the dem party potato salad

# ¿ Feb 27, 2018 22:35

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

Potato Salad posted:

I'm wondering if reading this aloud would help you out.

makes sense to me. if you wanna pull people into the party you can't just say "vote for us for 10 years and then you'll be rewarded!". you have to actually offer them something up front

too bad you've decided the only thing you'll offer up front is scorn

# ¿ Feb 27, 2018 22:42

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

Ytlaya posted:

I think I replied with something similar to this before, but the really big and important differences here are that 1. the other player has goals other than winning and would possibly rather lose than fulfill your demands and 2. the other player doesn't necessarily know why you rejected the deal (and in the case of the Democratic Party, they're likely to interpret it as "because we weren't racist enough" or something).

Your argument is valid as an explanation of why lesser evil-ism is a bad strategy for the Democratic Party if it wants to win, though (i.e. that people will disengage if they feel they aren't being treated fairly/adequately).

in number 1, you've already reached a bad point in the game and you can't recover by acquiescing

for number 2, that's why you vote, just for a candidate you like

# ¿ Feb 27, 2018 22:46

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

as this conversation drags on you're becoming less and less intelligible potato salad

# ¿ Feb 27, 2018 23:43

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

Potato Salad posted:

Like, say, wrest for control of the Dems?

you still haven't explained how voting for bad dems helps this goal

# ¿ Feb 27, 2018 23:45

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

Potato Salad posted:

What you're describing is centrist Dems dragging left on LGBT equality despite not being primaried out of office. You're literally describing a change that took place slowly because nobody primaried these fucks out of office. There is greater efficacy in engaging in, to invent a term, first strike activism where you elect leftists and don't need to endanger anyone by empowering a hostile majority.

That isn't helped by ensuring that the progressive movement is as cynical and disengaged as possible. Sure, fine, hold out for the 2012-style , after-the-fact evolution of party policy if you want. I don't loving trust centrist Dems enough to crawl leftward quickly enough to diminish oppression adequately.

uh, centrist dems didn't drag left on LGBT equality. they were dragged left by outside groups after all the hard work was done despite centrist efforts to stymie them. hth

# ¿ Mar 1, 2018 13:35

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

TyroneGoldstein posted:

Just a point here....You can steer centrists from your own party, especially now as 3rd Way centrism is on the run and reeling. You cannot steer the opposition.

it's almost impossible to steer them, and they will fight you tooth and nail. and they will betray you at critical moments. they are false friends and it doesn't really help us to help them attain power, especially when they're in the middle of stacking the deck in the primaries in order to prevent anything we want from happening

# ¿ Mar 1, 2018 15:06

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

Nevvy Z posted:

Don't let him win it.

it's tough when the establishment has firmly placed their thumb on the scale for him. not that people aren't going to try to win the primary

# ¿ Mar 2, 2018 17:46

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

Ytlaya posted:

The 2016 election is making me seriously doubt the conventional wisdom of "Democrats doing poorly never compels them to become better" (which is more or less the main logic behind lesser evil voting always being optimal). Even though the party itself is obviously resisting change, I feel like our society is having a bunch of discussions about certain topics that would have never occurred had Clinton won (or at least they wouldn't have been acknowledged as much by the media). Now, was it worth Trump becoming president? Probably not*, but it still means there's some consideration of pros and cons at play and it's not impossible that Democrats failing could prompt positive change.

*If, by some miracle, Democrats end up passing universal healthcare or some similarly significant good legislation after regaining power (and Trump doesn't start a war) it might be possible to actually judge the 2016 outcome positively in hindsight, but I seriously doubt that's going to happen. At best we've probably just pushed up the schedule for any future adoption of more left-leaning policy.

imo, a trump or trump-like president was inevitable on the old trajectory we were on. the establishment dems were not resisting sliding right at all. so, if trump didn't become president in 2016, he or someone worse would've been president in 2020. the dems have been paving the path to trump for years.

# ¿ Mar 3, 2018 09:37

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

Potato Salad posted:

On issues like DACA (deportation), poverty (functional slavery, missed opportunity), healthcare (death)... there are victims without an "undo" option.

it's too bad then that the dems completely abandoned dreamers, and refused to do what was needed back when they had power

# ¿ Mar 3, 2018 18:58

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

fishmech posted:

Wow, sounds like the left should have united in the first round instead of doing the typical squabbling which allowed Macron and Le Pen be the two choices in the second round. I guess that would have required a bunch of people to have voted for a "lesser evil" instead of their preferred candidate though, boo hoo hoo.

too bad the french version of the dem party pulled the "our right wing candidate lost, we endorse an even more right wing third party candidate instead of our own nominee" trick. really sucked for hamon when his own party stabbed him in the back and threw the primary to macron like that

guess lesser evilism doesn't apply to centrists like it's expected to apply to leftists

# ¿ Mar 3, 2018 21:21

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

fishmech posted:

That's nice dear. In reality a bunch of them didn't vote for Macron. In fact, enough them didn't vote for Macron that if they had voted for Melenchon instead, Melenchon would be in the second round.

Surely you do agree at least that both Hamon and Melenchon are significantly more left than Macron?

you realize the centrists self-destructed the PS after their pick, valls, lost to hamon right? you realize that it's idiotic to expect a party in turmoil to immediately unify with a new party right? like, maybe if the PS hadn't been ripped into pieces by its leadership after the primary, a push to unify with melenchon could've occurred, but they didn't have enough time to organize poo poo like that post-implosion in the middle of france's much shorter election cycle

also, melenchon and hamon are working together a lot these days, so the unification is in fact happening.

Condiv fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Mar 3, 2018

# ¿ Mar 3, 2018 21:45

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

fishmech posted:

Yes I realize it's the French Left's fault they refused to pick a French Left candidate to agree on, thus guaranteeing there were no French Left candidates in the second round. That's why it rings so hollow when they mope in about how boo hoo hoo i only had Macron and Le Pen to choose from - its because they hosed up unifying, again.

Again, you wouldn't even need the whole 6%+ of Hamon voters to go Melenchon to get him into second round ahead of Le Pen et al, you'd need less than 1/3 of hamon's votes added on to Melenchon to tick up over Le Pen.

and again, the machinery to get those 6% of hamon voters to go to melenchon didn't exist anymore cause the centrists destroyed it. what part of the PS was rudderless do you not understand fishmech? how do you expect them to instantly unify the PS with melenchon's third party after an unanticipated betrayal by the center of the party?

the center quickly solidified around macron because they obviously had planned to betray the PS if they lost to hamon. and so the former leadership of PS was not in disarray in the middle of the general, unlike the new left leadership which clearly did not expect to be knifed in the back because the petulant center did not get its way.

the worst thing you can fault the left for in the french election is having too much faith in weaselly centrists.

Condiv fucked around with this message at 22:44 on Mar 3, 2018

# ¿ Mar 3, 2018 22:40

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

SSNeoman posted:

I need to ask, are all of you here just trying to justify your inaction or third-party votes? Because if so, then this topic is a waste of everyone's time. I'm not hearing any good arguments against the ideas in the OP.

what would i need to justify ssneoman? we're here to discuss whether the lesser of two evils strategy is worthwhile at all.

# ¿ Mar 3, 2018 22:45

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

fishmech posted:

The machinery to get people to realize they should just vote for Melenchon instead of sticking with Hamon and the collapsing PS is called "a brain". Though I guess I'd have to agree a significant portion of the French Left lacked one of those.

Remember, you don't even need all of the Hamon vote to get Melenchon in the second round. You need less than a third. And it had been widely reported in the polls and news that Hamon was continuing to lose favor with Melenchon being the primary beneficiary. Doesn't take a rocket surgeon to realize the best option for the left in the first round was Melenchon by that point.

and that's why most of the left jumped to melenchon fishmech. but you can't honestly expect every single person to jump ship without convincing. maybe you don't have a functioning brain if you can't understand even the most basic aspects of human behavior

# ¿ Mar 3, 2018 22:48

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

fishmech posted:

I'm not expecting every person to jump ship. Just another 2%, it's all it would have taken.

and greater organization would've been needed for that 2%. organization that was not really possible considering the state the PS was in. the worst thing you can fault the left with in that election is that they did not expect to be betrayed, and did not prepare for it.

# ¿ Mar 3, 2018 23:04

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# ¿ Apr 23, 2024 21:06

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

fishmech posted:

Wow, maybe the French Left shouldn't have been so incompetent and unexpecting of obvious scenarios then. 🤔

they should've expected it, yes. this isn't the first time centrists have pulled that poo poo, and leftists should've known better than to think centrists would stick to their "lesser of two evils" bullshit when it came to supporting the leftist that got nominated. hopefully the lesson has been learned; centrists are not allies, and were never allies.

and yes, i fully expect something similar to happen in 2020 if a leftist is the dem presidential nominee

# ¿ Mar 3, 2018 23:21

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > "Lesser of two evils" voting

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