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Sir Kodiak
May 14, 2007






https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjDjIWPwcPU

Described by Rotten Tomatoes as "telling one of the MCU's most absorbing stories -- and introducing some of its most fully realized characters," T'Challa, prince of Wakanda, returns home to take the throne and face off against the vicious Killmonger following the explosion of T'Challa's father in Captain America: Civil War. Though following in the footsteps of other leading black superheroes in film (Meteor Man, Blankman, Spawn, Steel, Blade, Catwoman, Hancock), Black Panther was the first black superhero in American mainstream comic books, and Black Panther is being pushed as a cultural event for black Americans on the back of it being sold to a mainstream film audience, its largely-black cast and creative leads, and its positive vision of Afro-futurism. Here's hoping it's good.

Directed by: Ryan Coogler (Fruitvale Station, Creed)

Written by: Ryan Coogler and Joe Robert Cole (The People v. O.J. Simpson: American Crime Story)

Based on the Marvel Comics by: Stan Lee and Jack Kirby

Cinematography by: Rachel Morrison (Fruitvale Station, Dope)

Music by: Ludwig Göransson (Fruitvale Station, Creed)

Film Editing by: Debbie Berman (The Final Girls, Spider-Man: Homecoming) and Michael P. Shawver (Fruitvale Station, Creed)

Starring
Chadwick Boseman (Get on Up) as T'Challa / Black Panther
Michael B. Jordan (Creed) as Erik Killmonger
Lupita Nyong'o (Star Wars: The Force Awakens) as Nakia
Danai Gurira (The Walking Dead) as Okoye
Martin Freeman (The Hobbit) as Everett K. Ross
Daniel Kaluuya (Get Out) as W'Kabi
Letitia Wright (Black Mirror) as Shuri
Winston Duke (Person of Interest) as M'Baku
Sterling K. Brown (This Is Us) as N'Jobu
Angela Bassett (Green Lantern) as Ramonda
Forest Whitaker (Rogue One: A Star Wars Story) as Zuri
Andy Serkis (War for the Planet of the Apes) as Ulysses Klaue

The film will be released in the United States on February 16.

Please use spoiler tags until February 23 to give a one-week window in which people can read spoiler-free reactions.

Sir Kodiak fucked around with this message at Feb 27, 2018 around 00:38

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viral spiral
Sep 19, 2017

by R. Guyovich


I have a feeling this won't be as good as Blade and Django Unchained.

Being a part of the MCU hurts its quality IMO. It will probably be mediocre at best, and that is a shame.

safe harbor
Jul 18, 2004
EMO AS FUCK

It'll have a great opening weekend and that'll be it. I'll wait til its on Bluray or streaming because I'm just so tired of spending money on superhero flicks.

Mameluke
Aug 2, 2013
some dirty-sneaker-inbred-out of the woods-Pabst beer pussy methhead-junkie running all around town telling EVERYONE EVERYTHING ABOUT ELON MUSK


Since spoilers are already coming out can someone tell me why Black Panther goes to Korea and how much of the movie is set there?

DrVenkman
Dec 27, 2005


Mameluke posted:

Since spoilers are already coming out can someone tell me why Black Panther goes to Korea and how much of the movie is set there?

Barely any of the movie is set there. It's for a short scene where they go to capture Andy Serkis' character


As for the rest of the movie I liked it a lot. Aside from Andy Serkis and Martin Freeman it essentially stands outside of the MCU. No one mentions any of the Avengers or anything like that and the closest you get is a reference to Bucky but they don't even say his name. Yes, there are jokes but they come few and far between and they're not of the quippy kind either.

I liked it a lot, even though some of the CG gets a bit ropey in parts and Coogler only seems to show the larger Wakanda from the same two angles (Seriously, there are two scenes that sort of bookend the movie that appears to be set in the exact same corner of Wakanda). But I thought it was a refreshing left turn from what the MCU had been doing and hopefully sends a message to Marvel that not everything needs to be connected.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005


Did Coogler's visual style get reigned in?

Tenzarin
Jul 24, 2007

Let me sing you a song.


Taco Defender

I read a spoiler and how they have a country to pretend to be a 3rd world country just to hide that they are a super secret technological advanced country is loving hilarious.

garycoleisgod
Sep 27, 2004
Boo

I generally think Marvel movies are crap and I think Black Panther is one of the better ones, so you can decide what that means for yourself (either it's a really good movie or the kind of person who liked MoS and BvS thought it was better, which could mean it's crap).

The best thing about Black Panther is kinda also a drawback though, because the best thing in this film is Micheal B. Jordan's Killmonger. Most Marvel flicks have forgettable villians, but he's loving great. Unfortunately he's so good I started to wonder why I was supposed to be against him. Chadwick Boseman isn't terrible as Black Panther, but he's so reserved and stoic that he just doesn't draw the interest like Jordan does. They even give Killmonger a very sympathetic origin and goals, so they then have to add some evil poo poo on top of that to try to make sure the audience doesn't just side with him. Like all the kill memento scars and when he kills his girlfriend. A big part of the movie is about how Wakanda is a kinda hosed up place and Killmonger has a point. Personally, I'm Team Killmonger. I predict lots of "Killmonger Did Nothing Wrong" t-shirts (except for all the murder I suppose).

I found most of the action scenes involving the Black Panther suit to be not that interesting, the final confrontation especially is very visually dull and not that great. I think they might have had trouble shooting the (CGI?) outfit, as there are at least two fights not involving the suit that are actually pretty good. The opening action scene in the film can basically be summed up as a Batman action scene, but filmed with less competence than in Batman Begins, so I think there must have been trouble with filming the suit or it's CGI replacement.

I am white and not American so some of the political points of view might be a bit foreign to me but I really found it strange that(end spoilers) when Wakanda decides to do outreach at the end of the film, they decide to start in Los Angeles and you know, not their poorer African neighbours. Also, when you consider the history of racial politics and "regime change" Killmonger is a scary man because when he was in the American military they taught him black ops poo poo and how to destabilize nations, but the CIA agent in the movie is a straight up good guy, who gets a big heroic moment at the end of the film. Like, the soldier who was trained to be a killer is scary and evil, but the government organisation that did all that black ops poo poo and ran all those regime changes, their representative in the film is a hero who does nothing wrong. Even at the end, he has a big smile on his face while Black Panther talks to the U.N., like he's a proud dad or something. It's so loving weird.

Boris Galerkin
Dec 17, 2011



2D or 3D?

My theater has only like 1 showing for 2D at an awkward compared to 3D everything else.

Alan_Shore
Dec 2, 2004



I watched this last night and it was really good. The cast are incredible (the general owns) and really likable, the music and set design are excellent, it's really quite different to other Marvel movies and the action in South Korea is pretty awesome. Really relevant thematically to stuff going on in America right now. I'd give it 3 wet kisses.

Bedshaped
Apr 1, 2010


Tenzarin posted:

I read a spoiler and how they have a country to pretend to be a 3rd world country just to hide that they are a super secret technological advanced country is loving hilarious.

Also makes the villain's motivations much more interesting IMO. I really liked that the last 2 Marvel movies have delved into how the homes of the protagonists have negatively affected world around them by action or inaction.

I liked so many of the supporting characters more than Boseman's T'Challa though.

poptart_fairy
Apr 8, 2009

by R. Guyovich


Seeing this on Friday and I'm really excited for it.

Had a lot of "best MCU film ever!" comments about the movie, but that seems to be the case with literally all of the MCU movies soooo

Bedshaped
Apr 1, 2010


Also I was thinking the reason for the Infinity War action in Wakanda will be for the soul stone.

Supposedly the soul gem in the comics can "trap souls inside itself in an idyllic world" which sounds very similar to the place T'Challa spoke to his father at while he was unconscious having his abilities restored. I'd say the stone is underground or something and either affects people in the temple or affect those flowers he uses for his abilities.

davidspackage
May 16, 2007

The world no longer makes sense, but it is far more interesting.

Fun Shoe

Just had 2 1/2 hours of fun. Movie's bonkers in a good way, I love that a dude can have a sharp suit color matched to the plate in his lip and it is not played for a joke.

I was worried beforehand the antagonist would not be interesting, just Black Panther With Different Color Accent. Luckily I was quite wrong, but I agree that he was so sympathetic that his evil deeds made him less interesting. I feel like he was made more cruel because someone was afraid the movie was getting too ambiguous and challenging. Also didn't care for Martin Freeman's extended role as Token White Good Guy. garycoleisgod has some excellent points about this and the practically ignored rest of Africa.

My favorite by far was T'Challa's techy sister Shuri.

davidspackage fucked around with this message at Feb 15, 2018 around 11:34

hump day bitches!
Apr 3, 2011


davidspackage posted:

Just had 2 1/2 hours of fun. Movie's bonkers in a good way, I love that a dude can have a sharp suit color matched to the plate in his lip and it is not played for a joke.

I wish there was a John wick copycat movie with that dude with his mint suit and lip plate.gently caress he was cool

LesterGroans
Jun 9, 2009

It's funny...

You were so scary at night.


hump day bitches! posted:

I wish there was a John wick copycat movie with that dude with his mint suit and lip plate.gently caress he was cool

It's not action-y, but Isaach de Bankole plays an assassin in Limits of Control. No lip plate but, as usual, Bankole is very cool in it.

FiftySeven
Jan 1, 2006



Slippery Tilde

So as far as I am concerned after watching it, Black Panther is a good film, not so much because of its casting choices or aesthetics, but because Marvel has gotten making these films down to a science and almost everything they put out now sits somewhere between decent or amazing. Its good, great even but its only a 8/10 film, especially when compared to something like Thor or C.America Winter Soldier.

I have to say though, there were aspects of it that really disappointed me. For a film that is primarily set in Africa, it sure as hell did its best to ignore the problems that Africa itself actually has. They could have explored loads of topics and issues that affect Africa, from political issues such as dictatorships or gang violence, to disease and poverty that continually blights the continent. These would have been entirely new ground for a film such as this to explore and it could have been really interesting. Instead, the film chooses to devote its focus to the struggle of black Americans and how horrible life is for them. While there is room for such a film to be made, I just don't see why it had to be this one. As garycoleisgod said, its loving weird and felt like a real wasted opportunity.

It is even weirder in context, when you consider that Killmonger (what a name) actually seemed to have thrived in the Los Angeles ghetto. To say that he had a rough start, he sure seems to have done pretty drat well for himself afterwards. PhD in Engineering and an MBA at M.I.T, and went on to be one of the most lethal and proven soldiers that the american army had ever produced. I understand why he hates Wakanda and the path it took him down but he sure as hell seems like he could have lived a fairly easy and fruitful life had he chosen to.

All of this too, lead to one of the most abrupt changes of opinion I have seen in film as of late. T'Challa was pretty drat adamant about not wanting Wakanda to be involved with outside affairs, but one fight with Killmonger had him change his entire outlook on the subject. It felt a bit forced all things considered but I guess the marvel cinematic universe needed this issue to be resolved as quickly as possible for Infinity war.


Anyway, all that stuff said, I enjoyed the film a lot and I am looking forward to giving it a second watch when I have some more free time.

double negative
Jul 7, 2003



This is the best Marvel movie in my opinion, and the least MCU-ish of them all. The action sequences are fine, but they almost seem beside the point. Like, yeah, we gotta do this, but that’s not where this movie’s heart is. It’s just kinda awkward because it has to do all the things and I wanted more time, for instance, with Killmonger just talking about his views, or exploring Wakandan society. Boseman was good, but in a movie where so much of the supporting cast was great, his performance felt kind of workmanlike.

There’s a lot of poo poo in this movie that won’t mean anything to most white folks, in particular a dialogue between Africans and the black diaspora that I don’t think I’ve seen in a movie before. I also kinda felt that the first outreach center being to Oakland was kind of weird, but Coogler is from Oakland, all the poo poo he makes is mad personal, and they aren’t passing up a chance to cater to an American audience. Ultimately this movie didn’t feel like it was about the plight of Black Americans or the struggles of the African continent, but about Wakanda, its flaws, and the gently caress ups of the previous generation.

I’mma see it again on Friday and probably have more poo poo to say about it, but most importantly, M’Baku 2020.

Taintrunner
Apr 10, 2017


garycoleisgod posted:

I am white and not American so some of the political points of view might be a bit foreign to me but I really found it strange that(end spoilers) when Wakanda decides to do outreach at the end of the film, they decide to start in Los Angeles and you know, not their poorer African neighbours. Also, when you consider the history of racial politics and "regime change" Killmonger is a scary man because when he was in the American military they taught him black ops poo poo and how to destabilize nations, but the CIA agent in the movie is a straight up good guy, who gets a big heroic moment at the end of the film. Like, the soldier who was trained to be a killer is scary and evil, but the government organisation that did all that black ops poo poo and ran all those regime changes, their representative in the film is a hero who does nothing wrong. Even at the end, he has a big smile on his face while Black Panther talks to the U.N., like he's a proud dad or something. It's so loving weird.

That's actually, incredibly on your face hosed up, considering the history of the CIA and Black America. Like, really darkly loving evil considering Marvel's history of poo poo like the Northrop Grumman (major arms manufacturer) comic.

lateedit: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014..._n_5961748.html

quote:

More than 18 years have passed since Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Gary Webb stunned the world with his “Dark Alliance” newspaper series investigating the connections between the CIA, a crack cocaine explosion in the predominantly African-American neighborhoods of South Los Angeles, and the Nicaraguan Contra fighters — scandalous implications that outraged LA’s black community, severely damaged the intelligence agency’s reputation and launched a number of federal investigations.

It did not end well for Webb, however. Major media, led by The New York Times, Washington Post and Los Angeles Times, worked to discredit his story. Under intense pressure, Webb’s top editor abandoned him. Webb was drummed out of journalism. One LA Times reporter recently apologized for his leading role in the assault on Webb, but it came too late. Webb died in 2004 from an apparent suicide. Obituaries referred to his investigation as “discredited.”

Now, Webb’s bombshell expose is being explored anew in a documentary, “Freeway: Crack in the System,” directed by Marc Levin, which tells the story of “Freeway” Rick Ross, who created a crack empire in LA during the 1980s and is a key figure in Webb’s “Dark Alliance” narrative. The documentary is being released after the major motion picture “Kill The Messenger,” which features Jeremy Renner in the role of Webb and hits theaters on Friday.

Taintrunner fucked around with this message at Feb 15, 2018 around 15:32

Owlofcreamcheese
May 22, 2005


FiftySeven posted:

They could have explored loads of topics and issues that affect Africa, from political issues such as dictatorships or gang violence, to disease and poverty that continually blights the continent.

Africa seems like one of those topics that has the problem that barely any movies come out about it so each one has to kinda do it all. Like there should be more movies that show the problems with africa and there should be more movies that show africa as a place with people outside of just being a place problem ares and since barely any movies come out each individual one really feels like it should do it all but really never could.

Kurzon
May 10, 2013


Tenzarin posted:

I read a spoiler and how they have a country to pretend to be a 3rd world country just to hide that they are a super secret technological advanced country is loving hilarious.
You don't need to spoiler this because it was in the trailers.

You just have to suspend disbelief. All superhero movies are absurd. Don't get me started on the Joker in The Dark Knight. Think of Wakanda as a sort of black Atlantis. Superhero comics are full of secret cities.

Fried Watermelon
Dec 29, 2008


get beefy bitch


Taintrunner posted:

That's actually, incredibly on your face hosed up, considering the history of the CIA and Black America. Like, really darkly loving evil considering Marvel's history of poo poo like the Northrop Grumman (major arms manufacturer) comic.

lateedit: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014..._n_5961748.html

The new narrative is that the CIA is good now

The public will only see this movie and it'll be ingrained in the public consciousness that the CIA has a good relationship

Kurzon
May 10, 2013


garycoleisgod posted:

I generally think Marvel movies are crap and I think Black Panther is one of the better ones, so you can decide what that means for yourself (either it's a really good movie or the kind of person who liked MoS and BvS thought it was better, which could mean it's crap).

The best thing about Black Panther is kinda also a drawback though, because the best thing in this film is Micheal B. Jordan's Killmonger. Most Marvel flicks have forgettable villians, but he's loving great. Unfortunately he's so good I started to wonder why I was supposed to be against him. Chadwick Boseman isn't terrible as Black Panther, but he's so reserved and stoic that he just doesn't draw the interest like Jordan does. They even give Killmonger a very sympathetic origin and goals, so they then have to add some evil poo poo on top of that to try to make sure the audience doesn't just side with him. Like all the kill memento scars and when he kills his girlfriend. A big part of the movie is about how Wakanda is a kinda hosed up place and Killmonger has a point. Personally, I'm Team Killmonger. I predict lots of "Killmonger Did Nothing Wrong" t-shirts (except for all the murder I suppose).
Killmonger's plan is unworkable. He thinks that by immediately distributing vibranium weapons to all the black people, they will all rise up and overthrow Whitey. But he would need a global political movement to do that, not just weapons. Before Communism revolutions took over half the world, Marxists spent the 19th century building political movements and spreading their ideology. Only when there was a robust movement did they start thinking about weapons. It's not unrealistic though. Lots of terrorists actually think like Killmonger, catastrophically misjudging how the masses will behave.

quote:

I am white and not American so some of the political points of view might be a bit foreign to me but I really found it strange that(end spoilers) when Wakanda decides to do outreach at the end of the film, they decide to start in Los Angeles and you know, not their poorer African neighbours. Also, when you consider the history of racial politics and "regime change" Killmonger is a scary man because when he was in the American military they taught him black ops poo poo and how to destabilize nations, but the CIA agent in the movie is a straight up good guy, who gets a big heroic moment at the end of the film. Like, the soldier who was trained to be a killer is scary and evil, but the government organisation that did all that black ops poo poo and ran all those regime changes, their representative in the film is a hero who does nothing wrong. Even at the end, he has a big smile on his face while Black Panther talks to the U.N., like he's a proud dad or something. It's so loving weird.

Ross is just one guy. He doesn't embody the whole CIA and its history. Maybe to him the CIA is just a job; he's just a cog in the machine who wants a paycheck and maybe do a little good while he's at it. Why must you think every thing and character in a film must be a metaphor for something?

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


Kurzon posted:

Ross is just one guy. He doesn't embody the whole CIA and its history. Maybe to him the CIA is just a job; he's just a cog in the machine who wants a paycheck and maybe do a little good while he's at it. Why must you think every thing and character in a film must be a metaphor for something?

Most artists can't help but use people as a stand in for an entire demographic. Marvel keeps putting the same kinds of villains into their movies and motivations into all their characters.

LesterGroans
Jun 9, 2009

It's funny...

You were so scary at night.


Kurzon posted:

Why must you think every thing and character in a film must be a metaphor for something?

A guy who works for the CIA representing the CIA isn't much of a stretch for a metaphor.

pospysyl
Nov 10, 2012

SO EMBARRASSING

Does "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" make an appearance in the movie? Because it was embarrassing when it showed up in the trailer.

Kurzon
May 10, 2013


LesterGroans posted:

A guy who works for the CIA representing the CIA isn't much of a stretch for a metaphor.
Considering that Ross's role is pretty superfluous, I strongly doubt he was meant to be anything other than a connection to the wider MCU.

DeafNote
Jun 4, 2014

My first day on the internet


pospysyl posted:

Does "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" make an appearance in the movie? Because it was embarrassing when it showed up in the trailer.

I dont even remember which music was used (there were like 2/3 songs in the actual movie)
but I dont think so

double negative
Jul 7, 2003



pospysyl posted:

Does "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" make an appearance in the movie? Because it was embarrassing when it showed up in the trailer.

Nah, unless I missed it.

LesterGroans posted:

A guy who works for the CIA representing the CIA isn't much of a stretch for a metaphor.

He’s not even functioning in his capacity as a CIA agent for most of the movie, and when he is (Korea), he’s largely at odds with T’Challa and his goals.

Ultimately, Ross ends up being portrayed positively, but given the way this movie tries to grapple with the destructiveness of the American propensity for regime change and undermining of foreign governments, it’s weird to use that to call this a pro-CIA movie.

Part of Killmonger’s tragedy is that he ends up reproducing the logic of American foreign policy, while Ross’s growth as a character largely involves him shutting the gently caress up and taking a back seat as he realizes he’s out of his depth.


Also, lol at fixating on the white audience insert here. He’s basically just there so white folks don’t get too mad.

garycoleisgod
Sep 27, 2004
Boo

double negative posted:

He’s not even functioning in his capacity as a CIA agent for most of the movie, and when he is (Korea), he’s largely at odds with T’Challa and his goals.

Ultimately, Ross ends up being portrayed positively, but given the way this movie tries to grapple with the destructiveness of the American propensity for regime change and undermining of foreign governments, it’s weird to use that to call this a pro-CIA movie.

Part of Killmonger’s tragedy is that he ends up reproducing the logic of American foreign policy, while Ross’s growth as a character largely involves him shutting the gently caress up and taking a back seat as he realizes he’s out of his depth.


Also, lol at fixating on the white audience insert here. He’s basically just there so white folks don’t get too mad.

Part of my point is that I don't think you actually need a white audience insert. Nobody is planning on missing this movie until they find out Bilbo is in it, his presence won't change poo poo about the movie's performance. Even if this movie absolutely had to have a white dude in it, why did he have to be a CIA agent? There was no other way to get a white guy in?

Also, they don't hold Ross or the CIA in generals feet to the fire at all When Ross sees Killmongers picture, he INSTANTLY recognizes him and gives his entire history, including all the black ops poo poo. No character in the movie even thinks for a second to ask Ross how he knows all this so quickly, it sounds like it must be firsthand knowledge. Also, when he learns that the magic steroid plants have been burned he instantly states that Killmonger is using tactics that Ross is familiar with, meaning Ross too knows exactly how to destabilize a nation. No character in the scene brings up how this is hosed up. Then Ross ends the film a big hero.

Also, for a film about African people that brings up how colonizers hosed up Africa and enslaved their people, I found it strange that the actual conflict in the film is a Wakandan Civil War, whitey isn't fought at all.

I must again state how great Killmonger is. I know his plan wouldn't have worked, but then again considering T'Challa's plan, is a outreach center in California going to stop African-Americans being victims of police harassment and racism etc? I don't think any plan presented in this film is going to fix things. At least Killmonger stated directly he wanted to help the oppressed and overthrow those hurting them. His righteous anger and fury when first confronting T'Challa in the throne room is great, as is the challenge for kingship. Killmonger doesn't cheat or lie here, he states his (completely true) grievances, states his plan to defeat T'Challa, take over and "fix" things, then he follows through and wins the fight clean all on his own, even thought T'Challa had someone interfere in the fight on his behalf! Killmonger is an absolute boss. His final moments are cool too, accepting death and asking to be buried with his ancestors who would rather die than live in shackles. He overshadows the movie's hero in every way.

edited for hosed up spoiler bracket

Sir Kodiak
May 14, 2007




Hey, you hosed up one of your pairs of spoiler tags. Please fix.

edit: Been fixed. Thanks!

Sir Kodiak fucked around with this message at Feb 15, 2018 around 21:42

DeafNote
Jun 4, 2014

My first day on the internet


wasnt Ross a friend of Black Panther in the comics anyway?

Owlofcreamcheese
May 22, 2005


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everett_K._Ross

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD
Sep 14, 2007

everything is yours


Yeah, he was basically the scribe character in the legendary Christopher Priest run.

howe_sam
Mar 7, 2013

Creepy little garbage eaters

Overall, I thought it was a good film. My only complaint was that Daniel Kaluuya's character was all over the drat place.

And can we buy a map for these fools who think Oakland is Los Angeles adjacent?

KidDynamite
Feb 11, 2005

No, Mr. Rice, I expect you to PLEASE WORK OUT


Really enjoyed the movie. Casting was fantastic, and the cinematography was amazing.

Yaws
Oct 22, 2013



Give the villians motivations and goals to Black Panther and we'd have a loving dope blaxploitation movie.

As it is we have yet another toothless pro-capitalist pro-status quo dreck from the MCU. This poo poo is embarrassingly apolitical.

double negative
Jul 7, 2003



Can't believe this Disney movie is not Django Unchained

garycoleisgod posted:

Part of my point is that I don't think you actually need a white audience insert. Nobody is planning on missing this movie until they find out Bilbo is in it, his presence won't change poo poo about the movie's performance. Even if this movie absolutely had to have a white dude in it, why did he have to be a CIA agent? There was no other way to get a white guy in?

Also, they don't hold Ross or the CIA in generals feet to the fire at all When Ross sees Killmongers picture, he INSTANTLY recognizes him and gives his entire history, including all the black ops poo poo. No character in the movie even thinks for a second to ask Ross how he knows all this so quickly, it sounds like it must be firsthand knowledge. Also, when he learns that the magic steroid plants have been burned he instantly states that Killmonger is using tactics that Ross is familiar with, meaning Ross too knows exactly how to destabilize a nation. No character in the scene brings up how this is hosed up. Then Ross ends the film a big hero.

Also, for a film about African people that brings up how colonizers hosed up Africa and enslaved their people, I found it strange that the actual conflict in the film is a Wakandan Civil War, whitey isn't fought at all.

Other folks have already pointed out that Ross is an established character in the BP comics, and given that they'd already introduced him in Civil War alongside T'Challa, Coogler was pretty much compelled to use him in a certain way (and btw I think you have a bit too much faith in the general white movie-going populace). In terms of holding the CIA's "feet to the fire" American warmongering and white supremacy, along with T'Chaka's gently caress up, is what makes Killmonger who he is. You need Ross to be the symbol here, but don't seem to want to see Killmonger serving that role?

Along those same lines, you want the movie to be about fighting white folks when the movie actually does something far more interesting with an internal black conflict that I think is much more interesting, but that still grapples with the impact of white supremacy. All the characters that drive the plot here are black, but they're from different tribes, backgrounds, and perspectives even if they're all also Wakandan. Killmonger vs. Wakanda in general plays out a very real black diasporic vs African tension, but with some aspects switched up. Klaue could have been the villain you want, but that seems weaker to me.

garycoleisgod
Sep 27, 2004
Boo

double negative posted:

Can't believe this Disney movie is not Django Unchained


Other folks have already pointed out that Ross is an established character in the BP comics, and given that they'd already introduced him in Civil War alongside T'Challa, Coogler was pretty much compelled to use him in a certain way (and btw I think you have a bit too much faith in the general white movie-going populace). In terms of holding the CIA's "feet to the fire" American warmongering and white supremacy, along with T'Chaka's gently caress up, is what makes Killmonger who he is. You need Ross to be the symbol here, but don't seem to want to see Killmonger serving that role?

Along those same lines, you want the movie to be about fighting white folks when the movie actually does something far more interesting with an internal black conflict that I think is much more interesting, but that still grapples with the impact of white supremacy. All the characters that drive the plot here are black, but they're from different tribes, backgrounds, and perspectives even if they're all also Wakandan. Killmonger vs. Wakanda in general plays out a very real black diasporic vs African tension, but with some aspects switched up. Klaue could have been the villain you want, but that seems weaker to me.


Yeah, the basic facts about modern blockbuster movie making is probably what is holding Black Panther back from being able to make a stronger point and I probably do have too much faith in the audience, but that doesn't mean I have to like token white good guys inserted so people don't get their knickers in a twist.
While Ross may be from the comics, I believe the Department of State and the NSA, which is what Ross was in the comics, while they may have there own problems, are not the CIA. Also, even if Ross is an ally in the comics, he doesn't have to stay that way in the films. I mean, comic Jarvis isn't an AI and comic M'Baku is a villain called Man-Ape, not Black Panther's ally.
About Killmongers motivations and skills and how they reflect on America He may have learned his skills from America, but his motivation is very very strongly motivated by what T'Chaka did. If America was the same, but his dad wasn't killed, I don't think Killmonger comes back on Wakanda like he does. Especially if they actually bothered to take him home and not abandon him. The blame on America seems to be lessened and ignored, that the injustices in Killmongers life are created by other black people, by his very own family. Making the major plot movers all black is great as it gives them all the motivation and agency in the story, but it means that the blame for all the hurt and injustice in the story also falls solely on them. I don't think what happens in Africa in 100% the fault of Africans, it seems to be trying not to upset mainstream audiences. Understandable, but weak. It's just very strange if you want to criticize American foreign policy and warmongering and you decide the character by which to represent this is a black character with no real social power and a very legitimate grievance and not the CIA agent in the same film who presumably has done all the poo poo real CIA agents have done.

edit: I am also an idiot who can't tell the difference between two American cities. Apologies.

garycoleisgod fucked around with this message at Feb 16, 2018 around 04:03

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Nov 10, 2016

"Tell that to Zod's snapped neck!"


double negative posted:

This is the best Marvel movie in my opinion, and the least MCU-ish of them all. The action sequences are fine, but they almost seem beside the point. Like, yeah, we gotta do this, but that’s not where this movie’s heart is. It’s just kinda awkward because it has to do all the things and I wanted more time, for instance, with Killmonger just talking about his views, or exploring Wakandan society. Boseman was good, but in a movie where so much of the supporting cast was great, his performance felt kind of workmanlike.

There’s a lot of poo poo in this movie that won’t mean anything to most white folks, in particular a dialogue between Africans and the black diaspora that I don’t think I’ve seen in a movie before. I also kinda felt that the first outreach center being to Oakland was kind of weird, but Coogler is from Oakland, all the poo poo he makes is mad personal, and they aren’t passing up a chance to cater to an American audience. Ultimately this movie didn’t feel like it was about the plight of Black Americans or the struggles of the African continent, but about Wakanda, its flaws, and the gently caress ups of the previous generation.

I’mma see it again on Friday and probably have more poo poo to say about it, but most importantly, M’Baku 2020.

Uh, the home base of the Black Panther being in Oakland makes perfect sense.

Also please stop calling Oakland LA. (Not the post I quoted obvi but some of you people don’t know your California.)

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