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Jeb! Repetition
Dec 24, 2012

Ask me about Briar Rose and Chicken Chaser.


bushisms.txt posted:

That's the thing, every one else has an out, but they tie erik to real trauma and proclaim him wrong. It only kind of works for magneto because of the sheer repercussions any perpetrator of the Holocaust faced. We have yet to see Justice, probably never will, so his response to this, on top of being orphaned by his people, is only slightly off base.

Wow they have the same name.

Doing wrong things is wrong even if you were traumatized

Although I agree that it would have been better if they'd redeemed him

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Steve2911
Jan 22, 2013

Please be excited.


Magneto's from a whole other franchise.

bushisms.txt
May 26, 2004

Bring me an actual argument that isn't your personal feelings, something that's thought out longer than the tip of your dick.


Steve2911 posted:

Magneto's from a whole other franchise.

They're all avengers.

I'm not saying he should've been good. I'm saying that more nuance could've been had between white genocide and being an open nation, which the film tries to say are the only options. The only bad thing that happens is that someone that was betrayed killed someone who betrayed them and then gained the allegiance of other tribes. Even mbaka is like, ok? What if instead of genocide he planned to regentrify the major metropolitan areas for black folks? Or created a new freedom town?

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
ASK ME ABOUT MY SELF-PUBLISHED WARHAMMER FANFICTION AND MY KNIFE COLLECTION


CityMidnightJunky posted:

The guy was a terrorist. He says himself that he didn't care how many people he killed, or who they were, as long as he got Wakanda. They stole his birthright, killed his father, and abandoned him. His motivations were much more personal than he let on, as were his goals, which is why he took it too far. For all of his talk of black oppression, which he believed because it was true, He really just wanted personal revenge.

So, he shouldn't take his systematic persecution and the fact that he was orphaned personally.

Steve2911 posted:

Well done for predicting the plot of a film.

Movie was really great. Marvel's been on a role with films that actually have something to say and say well.

What did this film say?

Adder Moray posted:

Erik Killmonger is [spoiler]good motivations weilded by someone who only knows how to get his way through emulating US foreign policy.

And luckily there's a member of the interventionist wing of the US government there to help them.

And the US government, the institution that broke Erik, goes unpunished and uncriticised in the film.

It's a perfectly fine film but any message or politics it's trying to impart is a loving mess.

Rand Brittain
Mar 24, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."

Snowman_McK posted:

And the US government, the institution that broke Erik, goes unpunished and uncriticised in the film.

The film is pretty heavily critical of the CIA.

On a less crazy note, it's interesting that T'Challa gives Erik the opportunity to choose death over imprisonment, which is the exact opposite of what he did to Zemo, who got told that "the living are not done with you yet."

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
ASK ME ABOUT MY SELF-PUBLISHED WARHAMMER FANFICTION AND MY KNIFE COLLECTION


Rand Brittain posted:

The film is pretty heavily critical of the CIA.

No it isn't. A heroic CIA agent is one of the main characters. He gets to explain what Killmonger is doing, and he knows because he actually says 'we do this all the time' and this goes unremarked on. No one even gives him a mean look.

Mr. Apollo
Nov 8, 2000



In the trailer for Infinity War before the movie, there’s a clip of War Machine flying alongside the other Avengers who are charging. Based on what we saw in Black Panther I wonder if they repaired his spine like they did to Ross.

Inspector Gesicht
Oct 26, 2012

500 Zeus a body.

I didn't notice at all that T'Chaka is played by a different actor in the 1992 flashback. I thought they just used some magic age-reversing CGI, instead of the older actor's son.

Inspector Gesicht fucked around with this message at Feb 18, 2018 around 00:40

Apraxin
Feb 22, 2006

General-Admiral

Jeb! Repetition posted:

Which white man are you talking about?
About half the audience where I was stayed for the post-credits, and when the lights came up after that scene an old lady sitting at the front turned around and plaintively asked the whole theater 'HEY CAN SOMEONE TELL ME WHO THAT WHITE GUY WAS? SERIOUSLY, WHO WAS HE? WHY WAS HE THERE?'

Rand Brittain
Mar 24, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."

Snowman_McK posted:

No it isn't. A heroic CIA agent is one of the main characters. He gets to explain what Killmonger is doing, and he knows because he actually says 'we do this all the time' and this goes unremarked on. No one even gives him a mean look.

Subtext is a thing.

im on the net me boys
Feb 19, 2017

I died in 2007

I really enjoyed the film, but I'm really disappointed with how the king handles outreach afterward. The Wakandans have the means to give the proles worldwide the means to overthrow oppressive regimes and give to poor countries amazing technology. It's Marvel so I'm not expecting global communism now but God drat it if it wasn't the ending I wanted.

Moon Atari
Dec 26, 2010




Jade Ear Joe

Unexpectedly for disney, the movie takes a principled stance against imperialism rather than presenting a skin deep empowerment message. Killmonger has justified and sympathetic grievances, but his solution is to embrace imperialism. It is explicitly stated that he will actually just be a new avatar of white imperialism, replacing wakanda's nonimperialist culture with his own western derived one. Him burning the flowers that connect them to their past kings isn't just a random act of evil, it is a literalisation of his severing of their cultural history.

Some people are going to side with him out of an impulse to support vengeance against the white ruling class. But this interpretation is in its own way a form of American imperialism, forcing the African American experience onto the rest of Africa. Consider: if you arm insurrections across the world in how many countries will it be black people overthrowing white people, rather than one ethnic group overthrowing another? The American perspective is to assume black racial and cultural unity against white oppression, whereas Africans do not see themselves as racially and culturally homogeneous. Many African nations have dealt with both white western powers arming insurrectionist militias, as well as other African nations doing the same. So they are probably less keen on the idea of an African superpower upping the fire power and assuming control of the political direction of other nations.

T'challa contrasts with killmonger because his perspective is of the privileged wakandans. Again, as Africa is not racially and culturally homogeneous he cannot use blackness to declare himself history's victim and defer all responsibility. His people are complicit in the state of the world, as they preserved themselves in not just modest comfort but extreme techno-luxury, at the expense of helping everyone else. He realises this through his father's treatment of Erik, as t'chaka's stated reason for abandoning him is in order to preserve their line, literally abandoning another black life in order to protect their comfortable social order. T'challa's perspective is informed by guilt rather than vengeance, and so his efforts to improve the world will be through humanitarian aide rather than military force.

Military imperialism with beneficial intentions, otherwise known as liberal interventionism, doesn't have such a good real world history and it would be a poo poo message to suggest it as a viable solution to the world's problems. Especially when there is no real world wakanda so the message would have to be projected onto real nations.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
ASK ME ABOUT MY SELF-PUBLISHED WARHAMMER FANFICTION AND MY KNIFE COLLECTION


Rand Brittain posted:

Subtext is a thing.

What do you think the subtext of a CIA agent laying out their policy and practice of interventionism without anyone criticising or even commenting is?

whomupclicklike posted:

I really enjoyed the film, but I'm really disappointed with how the king handles outreach afterward. The Wakandans have the means to give the proles worldwide the means to overthrow oppressive regimes and give to poor countries amazing technology. It's Marvel so I'm not expecting global communism now but God drat it if it wasn't the ending I wanted.

Remember that they've had free, unlimited energy for like 15 movies now.

Moon Atari posted:

Unexpectedly for disney, the movie takes a principled stance against imperialism

It takes a stand against black imperialism. The regular CIA kind is fine.

sean10mm
Jun 29, 2005

Dispensing unwanted fitness advice since 2005. P.S. Squat more! BEEFCAKE!!!

Snowman_McK posted:

What do you think the subtext of a CIA agent laying out their policy and practice of interventionism without anyone criticising or even commenting is?


Remember that they've had free, unlimited energy for like 15 movies now.


It takes a stand against black imperialism. The regular CIA kind is fine.

This is some willfully dense poo poo.

im on the net me boys
Feb 19, 2017

I died in 2007

Snowman_McK posted:




Remember that they've had free, unlimited energy for like 15 movies now.


I cannot keep up with MCU tbh

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
ASK ME ABOUT MY SELF-PUBLISHED WARHAMMER FANFICTION AND MY KNIFE COLLECTION


sean10mm posted:

This is some willfully dense poo poo.

Is it? Do tell.

Hollismason
Jun 30, 2007

++Threadnaught++


I got to see this again today and the 2nd watch was just as good as the 1st. There's a lot to like but there's a lot of little things like mentioning that Erik went to graduate school at MIT was pretty interesting that I didn't pick up in the first showing.


Also Erik doesn't burn the plants because he wants to destroy Wakandan culture, he destroys them because they hurt his feelings. Compare his awakening from the spirit world to T'Chalas . T'Chala was genuinely happy to see his father. Erik was loving pissed and surprised at it .

Hollismason fucked around with this message at Feb 18, 2018 around 03:07

Dexo
Aug 15, 2009

GarPax: "You Want it to be one way....but it's the other way."


I mean in that scene they are literally describing what the bad guy is currently doing.

So I wouldn't say they don't make a statement about interventionism.

PostNouveau
Sep 3, 2011

VY till I die

Grimey Drawer

Ah gently caress me I thought we were done with Bucky loving Barnes for good.

Steve Yun
Aug 7, 2003

I
ANALYZE
CARTOONS


Soiled Meat

Men fighting to death in a strange pond is no basis for a system of government!

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
ASK ME ABOUT MY SELF-PUBLISHED WARHAMMER FANFICTION AND MY KNIFE COLLECTION


Dexo posted:

I mean in that scene they are literally describing what the bad guy is currently doing.

So I wouldn't say they don't make a statement about interventionism.


The scene where it's described as standard practice?

Also, remember that the CIA agent doesn't renounce the CIA or anything. He's just wounded (heroically saving someone) and taken to Wakanda.

I mean, what statement does it make? I don't think it makes a wrong statement, I think it makes a weak as gently caress, garbled statement at best.

Taintrunner
Apr 10, 2017






And this is why I don't gently caress with Black Panther.

https://twitter.com/leslieleeiii/st...697251372257281

(read the thread, Struggle Session is a real good podcast, etc.)

Arist
Feb 13, 2012

this reminds me of a puzzle


Biscuit Hider

Sure, if you ignore all context

PostNouveau
Sep 3, 2011

VY till I die

Grimey Drawer

Taintrunner posted:

And this is why I don't gently caress with Black Panther.

https://twitter.com/leslieleeiii/st...697251372257281

(read the thread, Struggle Session is a real good podcast, etc.)

The bad guy's goal isn't global black liberation, it's establishing an empire of his own. He even says "The sun will never set on the Wakandan Empire". He's not a liberator; he's a hardcore imperialist.

Harlock
Jan 15, 2006

Tap "A" to drink!!!



Forget Black Panther, get me an M'Baku movie stat.

LividLiquid
Apr 13, 2002

BITCOIN BATMAN

Arist posted:

Sure, if you ignore all context
The man's got a point. I was rooting for Jordan's character and really hoping that the resolution would be both he and Panther meeting in the middle, which only sort of happened.

Trump has broken me to the point that I'm like, "gently caress yeah. Opress the oppressor" when watching a movie from funnybooks, but dude was sympathetic as gently caress character. His Good Death wasn't really bittersweet to me. It was just bitter. He was infinitely more relateable than a literal king with superpowers and it kind of sucks that the villain in the movie was somebody whose primary grievance was actual, real-world bad poo poo, and the movie didn't really do enough to address why we should think he was wrong. Only that he was bad.

Ragnarok did a lot more to poo poo on Western Colonial thinking, and it did it pretty low-key. I was disappointed this flick flirted with just coming out and saying it, and then basically didn't.

Harlock
Jan 15, 2006

Tap "A" to drink!!!



My also immediate thought: man the first act is kind of rough. Are good scene transitions a lost art? I liked the film overall but I feel like it might be a touch too long and could benefit from a tighter edit.

Arist
Feb 13, 2012

this reminds me of a puzzle


Biscuit Hider

LividLiquid posted:

The man's got a point. I was rooting for Jordan's character and really hoping that the resolution would be both he and Panther meeting in the middle, which only sort of happened.

Trump has broken me to the point that I'm like, "gently caress yeah. Opress the oppressor" when watching a movie from funnybooks, but dude was sympathetic as gently caress character. His Good Death wasn't really bittersweet to me. It was just bitter. He was infinitely more relateable than a literal king with superpowers and it kind of sucks that the villain in the movie was somebody whose primary grievance was actual, real-world bad poo poo, and the movie didn't really do enough to address why we should think he was wrong. Only that he was bad.

Ragnarok did a lot more to poo poo on Western Colonial thinking, and it did it pretty low-key. I was disappointed this flick flirted with just coming out and saying it, and then basically didn't.

That you think the movie said he was "wrong" is part of what you misunderstand. Hint: there's a reason the final scene between him and T'Challa is basically an apology.

sleep with the vicious
Apr 2, 2010


Hitting the stage of a CineD thread willfully misunderstanding a movie early, nice

Arist
Feb 13, 2012

this reminds me of a puzzle


Biscuit Hider

Like, I'm not saying Erik's plan was good, because it wasn't. It was plainly imperialist and at best would have caused far more suffering than it could possibly have allieviated. But the movie is clear that he and T'Challa need to reconcile their viewpoints to help solve these problems.

Rand Brittain
Mar 24, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."

You could make an argument about how the movie isn't sufficiently sympathetic to the idea, that yeah, oppressed folks everywhere should just kill whitey, but phrasing it as "the Wakandans are killing each other to protect white people" kind of drops you out of being taken seriously.

"Wakanda forever" isn't the cry of someone who's primarily concerned with protecting hegemony or something.

LividLiquid
Apr 13, 2002

BITCOIN BATMAN

Arist posted:

That you think the movie said he was "wrong" is part of what you misunderstand. Hint: there's a reason the final scene between him and T'Challa is basically an apology.
Actually,

LividLiquid posted:

I was rooting for Jordan's character and really hoping that the resolution would be both he and Panther meeting in the middle, which only sort of happened.

MisterBibs
Jul 17, 2010

dollar dollar
bill y'all


Fun Shoe

I struggled with some of the accents in the movie and I could've missed this, but was there rationale about not taking Erik with him, if there was one? I mean, he was planning on taking his brother back...

PostNouveau
Sep 3, 2011

VY till I die

Grimey Drawer

MisterBibs posted:

I struggled with some of the accents in the movie and I could've missed this, but was there rationale about not taking Erik with him, if there was one? I mean, he was planning on taking his brother back...

I didn't catch one. Didn't make any loving sense to me.

PostNouveau
Sep 3, 2011

VY till I die

Grimey Drawer

And if we're poking holes, why does Erik let Klaue go to try and make a deal with the CIA. If his plan was just to kill him and use his body to get into Wakanda, then why not just do that to begin with? Taking a lot of unnecessary risk with his key.

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013

I bet you would really enjoy One Punch Man.


PostNouveau posted:

I didn't catch one. Didn't make any loving sense to me.
The father said he wanted to keep the path to the throne clean. Or something to that effect.

Dexo
Aug 15, 2009

GarPax: "You Want it to be one way....but it's the other way."


PostNouveau posted:

And if we're poking holes, why does Erik let Klaue go to try and make a deal with the CIA. If his plan was just to kill him and use his body to get into Wakanda, then why not just do that to begin with? Taking a lot of unnecessary risk with his key.

T'Challa has to fail to capture(well fail to keep Klaw captured) first. That failure is what leads to dissent and lack of faith in that one guy who's name I forget. So when Killmonger shows up with Klaw's dead body he can claim your current and new king is a failure.

Hollismason
Jun 30, 2007

++Threadnaught++


PostNouveau posted:

And if we're poking holes, why does Erik let Klaue go to try and make a deal with the CIA. If his plan was just to kill him and use his body to get into Wakanda, then why not just do that to begin with? Taking a lot of unnecessary risk with his key.

Someone gave the information to the Wakandans about Klaue .. it was probably Erik. He knew that the Wakandans would go after him. His plan was to weaken T'Challa's position with the border tribes

PostNouveau
Sep 3, 2011

VY till I die

Grimey Drawer

Dexo posted:

T'Challa has to fail to capture(well fail to keep Klaw captured) first. That failure is what leads to dissent and lack of faith in that one guy who's name I forget. So when Killmonger shows up with Klaw's dead body he can claim your current and new king is a failure.


I suppose so. I guess I had that guy pegged as an eventual traitor from the beginning because he was immediately like "let's go to war and force our will on everyone". Like he was espousing Erik's plan on screen before Erik was. But I guess it's plausible enough.

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Mazzagatti2Hotty
Jan 23, 2012

JON JONES APOLOGIST #3


Fantastic film. Quite possibly my favorite Marvel flick to date. It was beautifully shot, Wakanda seemed vibrant and alive, possessing it's own unique culture in contrast to the million superhero films set in some version of New York/Chicago. The score was well done, the villain was relatable and captivating.

I'm sure there's plenty to nitpick on subsequent viewings, but for now I'm just thrilled to live in a time when this kind of film, with this bonkers cast and stellar director, can be put out by loving Disney. Wakanda Forever indeed!

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