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Kurzon posted:Maybe to him the CIA is just a job; he's just a cog in the machine That is literally the Nuremberg defence, my dude. Yaws posted:Give the villians motivations and goals to Black Panther and we'd have a loving dope blaxploitation movie. "Everything is fine, why don't you just want to carry on as is, orphaned, poverty stricken footsoldier of the military industrical complex?" The movie was fine, as the entire MCU is, but when you remember that it's fuckin' Ryan Coogler spending 200 million dollars on a Black Panther movie, and think what that might have looked like with some teeth, you'll weep. poptart_fairy posted:Seeing this on Friday and I'm really excited for it. I think that's a case of 'I hadn't seen this episode before, and now I have' And if anyone wants to read some nauseating hyperbole, "Some dipshit on Forbes posted:Ryan Coogler’s Black Panther isn’t just a darn good movie. It is a very good movie in a handful of ways that explicitly rebuts several of the ongoing stereotypes related to the Marvel Cinematic Universe. As such, its success won’t just be another feather in Marvel’s cap. So, before we see if the Chadwick Boseman/Michael B. Jordan/Lupita Nyong'o/Danai Gurira/Daniel Kaluuya/Letitia Wright superhero spectacular can break a few records over its Fri-Mon opening weekend (it has $23.2 million overseas already), I wanted to note specifically how this artistic triumph and (presumed) commercial success changes the narrative right as Marvel reaches the end of its first long-form story. You wonder why people like this don't just work directly for Disney, cut out the middle man.
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Feb 16, 2018 07:41
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Dexo posted:If we stopped buying Jordans we could build our own Wakanda. Can we keep Michael B Jordan though? he's delightful CityMidnightJunky posted:What I took from Killmonger is that everything he says is right,a nd he probably believes it, but [spoiler] He's really motivated by pure revenge, which is why he takes things way too loving far.[/qpoiler] And what one can take from that is that black people, even those who've suffered horribly, shouldn't lose their temper and be angry.
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Feb 17, 2018 02:25
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Letitia Wright was fantastic and I hope she gets more work.ThisIsACoolGuy posted:It's funny, the only part of the movie I didn't like is the rhino. The rhino stopping it's charge to give a warrior a lil smooch really took me out of the scene as a gag that really didn't need to be there. There's a lot of tension in the fight and things are super serious so I didn't quite get why they had to suddenly end one of the conflicts on a funny CGI animal. Sincerity is really hard for the MCU, and even Coogler could only go so far.
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Feb 17, 2018 03:13
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It's set up, it's just out of place. The lick, specifically, which undercuts what's otherwise a very effective scene.
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Feb 17, 2018 04:18
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Atlas Hugged posted:That relationship was strange. Outside of the one line earlier in the film, it's not mentioned again until the very end. They could have built that up a lot better and really ratcheted up the emotional tension and symbolism of the final battle. The final battle was the usual marvel thing where it gets needlessly complicated just to make sure everyone has something to do. W'Kabi's move from 'I'm kind of disappointed that you didn't catch Klaw the first time out' to 'I am not merely backing the new king, but actually fighting and killing my own people for him' just felt a bit too obviously a way to give T'Challa some random goons to fight before the final showdown. Snowman_McK fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Feb 17, 2018 |
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Feb 17, 2018 04:53
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CityMidnightJunky posted:The guy was a terrorist. He says himself that he didn't care how many people he killed, or who they were, as long as he got Wakanda. They stole his birthright, killed his father, and abandoned him. His motivations were much more personal than he let on, as were his goals, which is why he took it too far. For all of his talk of black oppression, which he believed because it was true, He really just wanted personal revenge. So, he shouldn't take his systematic persecution and the fact that he was orphaned personally. Steve2911 posted:Well done for predicting the plot of a film. What did this film say? Adder Moray posted:Erik Killmonger is [spoiler]good motivations weilded by someone who only knows how to get his way through emulating US foreign policy. And luckily there's a member of the interventionist wing of the US government there to help them. And the US government, the institution that broke Erik, goes unpunished and uncriticised in the film. It's a perfectly fine film but any message or politics it's trying to impart is a loving mess.
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Feb 18, 2018 00:41
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Rand Brittain posted:The film is pretty heavily critical of the CIA. No it isn't. A heroic CIA agent is one of the main characters. He gets to explain what Killmonger is doing, and he knows because he actually says 'we do this all the time' and this goes unremarked on. No one even gives him a mean look.
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Feb 18, 2018 00:59
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Rand Brittain posted:Subtext is a thing. What do you think the subtext of a CIA agent laying out their policy and practice of interventionism without anyone criticising or even commenting is? whomupclicklike posted:I really enjoyed the film, but I'm really disappointed with how the king handles outreach afterward. The Wakandans have the means to give the proles worldwide the means to overthrow oppressive regimes and give to poor countries amazing technology. It's Marvel so I'm not expecting global communism now but God drat it if it wasn't the ending I wanted. Remember that they've had free, unlimited energy for like 15 movies now. Moon Atari posted:Unexpectedly for disney, the movie takes a principled stance against imperialism It takes a stand against black imperialism. The regular CIA kind is fine.
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Feb 18, 2018 02:10
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sean10mm posted:This is some willfully dense poo poo. Is it? Do tell.
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Feb 18, 2018 03:32
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Dexo posted:I mean in that scene they are literally describing what the bad guy is currently doing. The scene where it's described as standard practice? Also, remember that the CIA agent doesn't renounce the CIA or anything. He's just wounded (heroically saving someone) and taken to Wakanda. I mean, what statement does it make? I don't think it makes a wrong statement, I think it makes a weak as gently caress, garbled statement at best.
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Feb 18, 2018 05:09
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:Quite possibly my favorite Marvel flick to date. I Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:I'm sure there's plenty to nitpick on subsequent viewings, Or on initial viewings. Arist posted:Like, I'm not saying Erik's plan was good, because it wasn't. It was plainly imperialist and at best would have caused far more suffering than it could possibly have allieviated. But the movie is clear that he and T'Challa need to reconcile their viewpoints to help solve these problems. You could say the truth is somewhere in the middle. Krazyface posted:That seemed kind of harsh to me, it was literally his first day. Well, when your hero needs some random, ineffectual goons to fight, who cares about actual characterisation? SatansBestBuddy posted:So really, this is a pretty neat movie built within the Marvel superhero framework, meaning it touches on interesting ideas but can't commit to them because it's primarily about action and heroics, You've just described every MCU film. Every. Single. One.
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Feb 18, 2018 11:51
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Steve2911 posted:They should never leave their bubble city. This but unironically. The movie is hurt by the dual revelation that they have spies in every nation, and that they turn away refugees (or are at least as uncomfortable with them as the UK and US are) because it means that they've noticed all the horrifying poo poo in the world, known about it in great detail, yet done nothing, not even help those who escape. If you had them be genuinely isolationist, knowing nothing of the outside world (except for maybe the king or the spymaster or something) it would raise fewer uncomfortable questions. I think the real problem is that trying to extrapolate how Wakanda would behave is really hard, since it has absolutely no historical precedent or parrallel. I mean, it's had a massive technological advantage for thousands of years, yet hasn't exploited it. It has a warrior king and a powerful army, but never acts outside its own borders. I mean, there aren't a whole lot of cultures who've been in that situation and done what they've done, so it has to be made up. Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:I mean, this is CineD. Well, it's going to be balanced out by positive hyperbole as well, just like every MCU discussion. FilthyImp posted:His die free vs live as a slave bit is oblivious to the massive negative results his revolution would cause. The Wakandan free status quo has...ahem, quite a few negative results. Also, is it not a little uncomfortable to see a film where a young black American, the second he gets power, becomes just as bad if not worse than his oppressors? Especially in a film where his oppressors go uncriticised?
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Feb 18, 2018 23:12
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Steve2911 posted:Yes this is the point of the movie. Then it is poorly resolved and acted upon. "Hey, there's staggering inequality and systemic violence" "You're right, here is an outreach centre. Let's do things in accordance with the laws and values of the people responsible for that staggering inequality and systemic violence." It is, like everything else in the MCU, completely and deliberately toothless.
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Feb 18, 2018 23:17
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Roth posted:Wakanda's isolationism is shown to be a bad thing and T'Challa rejects it after calling out all the past kings at once. If that had any payoff in the film, it would be a great scene. It's a perfectly fine film, but pretending this makes any statement or point is giving it way too much credit.
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Feb 18, 2018 23:24
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Steve2911 posted:I mean, did you expect the film to flash forward a decade and show how Wakanda's impacted the rest of the world? I don't know. I'm not the film's screenwriter. The film's screenwriter, however, wrote a situation where an African king is confronted with the staggering inequality of the world, specifically the US, and his response is to build an outreach centre in the US, in accordance with its laws and with the approval of a CIA agent. So, maybe be in a better thought out film? One that doesn't imply that the oppression of the Black Diaspora is somehow the fault of a small African nation?
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Feb 18, 2018 23:29
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temple posted:The plot dealt with a timely issue in the diaspora.
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Feb 18, 2018 23:40
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Steve2911 posted:If you wanted him to go to war with the US well... That was never going to happen, was it? And having you say that about a film called 'Black Panther' is kind of loving depressing isn't it? Also, about the 'first step,' do you not sort of see the problem with arguing for incremental change working within the system in the present day US?
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Feb 18, 2018 23:46
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RevolverDivider posted:The lengths morons are going to willfully ignore what the movie is doing and saying in this topic just to piss and moan about the MCU is astounding. What was the film doing and saying?
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Feb 19, 2018 00:01
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sexpig by night posted:in the grand cultural sense the movie is a net positive as it's more mainstream acceptance of diversity in these stories and all and that's good but like most things getting mainstream acceptance it usually has to come at the cost of saying 'now it's ok, we're not like those RADICALS'. This is sort of what frustrates me: in terms of representation, the film is a gigantic step forward. I never expected to see 'afro-futurism' in the broader cultural dialogue. In many respects, it's absolutely top notch. Even the plotting, as far as being a film plot, is structurally sound It's just the film's statement when you remember that Africa, Oakland and the CIA all really exist, is muddled at best. I have this feeling that there's a tendency for film's about under-represented groups to both try and do a bit too much because you don't know how long it'll be before you get to make another(there was enough plot in Black Panther for at least two movies, maybe three) and also face far too much scrutiny, since a lot of the weight of representation falls on too few films and shows.
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Feb 19, 2018 00:08
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sexpig by night posted:also to be clear the movie was loving awesome and easily one of the best MCU products, everyone's performance was great and the visuals were fantastic. You can have philosophical issues with a product you enjoy. The whole sequence in the Casino is terrific, and I really wanted more of African James Bond telling a CIA agent to gently caress off.
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Feb 19, 2018 00:30
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:My impression is that this film would be a failure to you unless it actually showed them fixing systemic inequality at the end. Which, while I would be interested how they accomplished that myself, I'm perfectly satisfied seeing the first steps being taken. Or, just not directly allude to it repeatedly while doing nothing to change the very horrifying status quo, where 1 in 9 young black men are in prison, for instance, or where there is a significant, measurable gap in life expectancy based on race. Again, this is a film where a character called BLACK PANTHER works alongside a member of the American intelligence community against a orphaned, impoverished black kid who pulled himself up by his bootstraps. The ending is about as good an ending as we could get from the plot that precedes it. The fix is in the film leading up to it, not the ending itself. Killmonger should not have been an out and out villain (you can argue about how complicated he is, but the narrative path is always about confronting him and stopping him, not redeeming him) the loving CIA agent shouldn't have been a good guy (which he is, unless you want to demonstrate a scene where is not) The victim of oppression shouldn't have immediately become the oppressor. Don't have a film where its implied the continued suffering of black people only happens because an African nation with-holds help. Stuff like that. Again, the film is fine in a vacuum where Oakland, the US, Africa and the CIA all don't exist in their current form, but the idea that this film is making a statement is loving laughable.
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Feb 19, 2018 02:02
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Spacebump posted:Sometimes people forget the difference in fact vs opinion then feel the need to post for a few weeks about a movie they didn't like. There's no one here who's forgotten that difference, dickhead. Deadulus posted:Michael B Jordan is a very handsome man. This is true. He also looks like he killed and ate the version of himself in Creed. He is loving massive. BrianWilly posted:There's a sense that Wakanda might not actually know how bad the problems of the world had become Become? The oppression of black people is not a new phenomenon, and the prologue specifically depicts the slave trade. The Great African War and the Belgian Congo happened more or less on their doorstep. SatansBestBuddy posted:When you are in control of a powerful and wealthy nation, you should use that power to help people. And if this message wasn't played through the filter of an African nation, whose leader works alongside the CIA, in a franchise that also features Tony Stark (what was the last thing he did to help people? And how much difference did it make), it would not be as troublesome as it is. Yes, the message is very obviously 'do good things, stop bad things' but ignoring the specifics is the thing that requires one to be pretty loving dense. Snowman_McK fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Feb 19, 2018 |
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Feb 19, 2018 02:23
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SatansBestBuddy posted:A fake utopian nation, which is also in Africa. I feel that it being both a fantasy nation and a peaceful utopia are more important that it being African, ie if this was a secret fake Asian nation revealing itself to help the world the basic message would be the same, it's the context that would be different. quote:One member, unofficially, and it's somebody he only learns to trust after said agent helps save his girlfriends life. We also don't know to what degree it even matters, since they reveal Wakanda's technology at the end anyway, so even if the CIA were informed they had maybe a week with that knowledge before the rest of the world found out. Also, yes, he's only one character, so is M'Baku, who is absolutely representative of his people. And what makes you so sure he was there unofficially? He was in South Korea officially, and then was injured. He didn't go off the grid or anything. quote:Who isn't mentioned or consider at all at any point in the film? And who also isn't the king of a nation. quote:This reads more like you're trying to find ways to make it troublesome than it actually being so. quote:But you're only cherry picking the negative points, yes there is more complexity to the issues at large but I don't know how you'd expect a loving Marvel Movie to address any of those points? The closest they came to political discourse was arguing over who had custody of Klaw, did you really expect they'd have a meeting to discuss how to deal with the CIA or which countries will get outreach centres or the degree to which they share technology with the world? And no, I don't expect them to address them in any real way, which is why i'm mystified that they brought them up. quote:Like, I get what you're saying, but I also have no idea why any of it detracts from the overall sentiment of the movie? Snowman_McK fucked around with this message at 03:22 on Feb 19, 2018 |
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Feb 19, 2018 03:18
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temple posted:democracy is a crap shoot at this point. but i guess people missed the whole council of tribes scenes all through out the movie Rome had a senate. Nodosaur posted:Ross is clearly acting in defiance of his superiors and is walking a thin line. This is based on nothing in the film. temple posted:people also ignore that killmonger was cia trained and using cia tactics. the film was more a critique of the cia than people are willing to admit. The film never criticises him for his methods, it criticises his goals. Again, there is a scene when the heroic CIA agent says 'this is what we always do' that passes by uncommented on. MariusLecter posted:People's biggest problem with Black Panther seems to be the same some had with Cabin in the Woods, "Well why didn't they tell us all how to do a perfect horror movie? huh?" Actually its more 'why didn't they engage with problems that they themselves wrote into their film?'
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Feb 19, 2018 06:58
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temple posted:idk what would pass as criticism from the film for you. Someone saying 'jeeze, that's kind of messed up' or critically raising an eyebrow. While these are both obviously inadequate, they are more criticism than the film offers, being more than zero. The weird part is that it's a completely unnecessary line. It's perfectly clear why he burns them. You don't need to tie it back to uncriticised CIA modus operandi Nodosaur posted:He outright says that he didn't blow the lid on T'Challa being the Black Panther in the South Korean casino. That's 'I haven't reported yet' rather than 'acting in defiance.' Especially since we don't know his superiors feelings or policy towards Wakanda. Also, if the CIA managed to go through the entire Civil War incident without connecting the two (remember they were takin into custody at one point) well, then, gently caress... I mean, you're probably technically correct that that counts as going against his superiors, but that's really, really loving weak considering what it usually looks like in an action film when someone defies their superiors. Snowman_McK fucked around with this message at 07:24 on Feb 19, 2018 |
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Feb 19, 2018 07:21
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Nodosaur posted:T'Challa has been crowned king and T'Chaka already buried and Zemo incarcerated and Captain America's staged a jailbreak Okay. A guy in the Black Panther outfit was seen in the chase and arrested. A few hours later, the very public figure of King T'Challa is freed, having encountered dozens of agents in that time (including confronting Bucky in a food court). And you think that Ross is somehow the only guy that knows who he is? I mean, I don't even remember it being a thing that Black Panther's identity is secret. I thought the thing he said he'd concealed was that he was operating in Korea.
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Feb 19, 2018 07:29
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Nodosaur posted:In Civil War, I recall that, as far as American intelligence was concerned, Everett was the one in charge, with General Ross (a bit confusing, I know) representing the military. So... yes, I can see any CIA or american intelligence operatives not connected to the military not sharing that information on Everett's orders. I'm not rewatching Civil War to check, but you may very well be right. That's still some weak poo poo to describe as acting in defiance, since, for that to really apply, we'd have to know what wish of his superiors he was acting in defiance of. At best he's not doing something that he probably shouldn't do.
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Feb 19, 2018 07:37
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Kal-L posted:For real. I mean, U.S. elections also have fights, but with words, and it's three of them instead of just one, and the winner of each gets great support from the public. Or that was how it used to work Before Trump. Well, exactly. So, we're giving Ross credit for doing the absolute bare minimum, which, coincidentally, is also him acting in self preservation. Also, he transforms/dons his armour in full view of a street in Korea, so it's not like he's working all that hard to keep it hidden.
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Feb 19, 2018 07:44
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Nodosaur posted:Look, at the very least, saying "T'Challa works with and does things with the blessings of the CIA" is still inaccurate. quote:Nothing Ross does in the entire movie involves him giving permission, or exerting power over the Wakandans. He's always at a disadvantage to them in terms of resources, he effectively has to be empowered and told what to do by the Wakandans in the fight, quote:and his most outright heroic act comes at risk to his safety. quote:He openly aids them in the car chase against Klaue, which is definitely against his orders quote:and he makes a point that he's stretching things to even have them at Klaue's interrogation. quote:Ross's status as an agent is only helpful in that he provides a spare car in Korea and perspective on Killmonger's methods. quote:And if he's not subverting the authority of his superiors and not telling them things at the start of the movie, he's definitely not telling them anything by the end, because the obviously-American delegate still thinks Wakanda has nothing to offer them. quote:Ross's entire role in the movie contrasts with his line of work, it is not driven by it. His entire character is about developing loyalty to T'Challa in spite of his station. This is now getting very nitpicky, and I apologise. It's still a CIA agent acting heroically to help an African nation against a poor black kid. The film's criticism of the CIA (as represented by their agent acting in defiance) is limited to 'they didn't know some things that they absolutely should have known based on the last film' Snowman_McK fucked around with this message at 07:59 on Feb 19, 2018 |
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Feb 19, 2018 07:56
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Calling a stem school is dumb, it's the exact same plan as killmonger's made not evil. Because they recognize he's right but that he got part of it wrong. It's handing them a path to work IT in a country and system that loathes them and has kept a boot on their throat for hundreds of years. temple posted:why is it wakanda's responsibility to end oppression? Because the personification of the rich whiite military industrial status quo is their most popular character. Arist posted:Which, if anything, implies (to me at least) it's going to be fairly more complicated than "teaching kids how to code" because I imagine Shuri'd be bored out of her mind trying to do something that menial instead of actually sharing the depths of her knowledge. Not saying coding isn't important, it's just comparatively far less glamorous unless you live in Hackers. Woah, you're saying a big budget Disney film might reduce a female character to a teacher/parent figure? You're saying an MCU movie might go with a mundane idea instead of the fantastical possibilities it actually allows for? You're saying it might put up non-violent resistance, working within the system, as an article of faith for POC?
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Feb 26, 2018 23:20
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YOLOsubmarine posted:Wakanda isn’t a real place, it’s a fantasy utopia and if the filmmakers’ best idea for a fantasy African utopia is a bunch of folks who don’t care about slavery if it doesn’t happen to them then this movie even more cynical than I thought. And the uncomfortable questions about Wakanda ignoring the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade, the Belgian Congo, Rwanda and the Great War of Africa, to name a few, would be gone if you established them as actually isolationist. Instead of 'isolationist, but we have spies everywhere and know everything'
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Feb 26, 2018 23:40
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sean10mm posted:The movie presents Wakanda's history of hiding from the rest of the world and ignoring its problems as a mistake. And profoundly loving toothless. Sorry about the slave trade, guys. Learn IT
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Feb 26, 2018 23:47
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Arist posted:This is the most absurdly bad-faith thing I've ever read on these forums Marvel partnered with Northrop Grumman late last year. That happened in real life.
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Feb 26, 2018 23:50
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Punch Drunk Drewsky posted:At this point I'd even say the cynical "learn to code" isn't as cynical as BP actually is since we have to speculate on what this outreach will be. By the end they've flexed their propaganda muscles and that's about it. If you ever want to remember how cynical the MCU is, remember that Iron Man invented free unlimited energy like 15 movies ago, yet every view of the world is exactly the world we recognise.
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Feb 26, 2018 23:53
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Arist posted:What's your point? Your right, a movie where revolution by the world's underclasses is discarded in favour of low key outreach involving STEM education made by a company that though partnering with an arms manufacturer that William Gibson would have thought was a bit much is completely irrelevant.
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Feb 26, 2018 23:55
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Arist posted:When you're trying to discuss and analyze the movie? Yes. Okay. Taken on its own, Black Panther is the story of a man who, confronted with literally centuries of injustice, oppression, slavery, mutilation, disenfranchisment and rape, builds an outreach centre so kids can learn to code. You don't really need to tie it to Disney's horrifyingly cozy relationship with the military industrial complex to make any statement the film makes either lovely or completely toothless.
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Feb 27, 2018 00:00
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Charlz Guybon posted:Can he actually mass produce large scale plants? I was under the impression that he couldn't. It's unlimited energy. He doesn't need to mass produce it. Also, he makes the element he needs in his house while drying out.
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Feb 27, 2018 00:15
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Charlz Guybon posted:That's not how power plants work, even scifi cold fusion ones. If a company invented working fusion reactors tomorrow, they still would have to mass produce them to provide the world with clean energy and depending on the design that could be ruinously expensive. It isn't a sci fi fusion one, it's a magic one. Like, he 'invents' a new element to make it work (while drying out) that's it's relationship to science. And this is a form of energy that he invented in a cave under duress with spare parts, there's no way it's ruinously expensive. Yet nothing changes. I mean, right now, Elon Musk has a cult of personality by going 'maybe solar power isn't terrible' Stark 'invents' an element (I know that's impossible) that magically generates unlimited energy forever, and nothing in the world changes. THAT is cynical.
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Feb 27, 2018 00:32
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Arist posted:But the movie having a different stance than you do is not a flaw. Having a pathetically toothless one that fails to engage with the real world problems the film deliberately invokes is a flaw, though. Arist posted:the former adopting the mindset, but not the means, of the latter. He doesn't, though. Kil monger wants to upset and change the global order. T'Challa wants to maintain it, working with those who helped create it and benefit from it. That is not the same mindset at all. Arist posted:This movie is directed by, written by, about, and primarily featuring black people. To tear it down for not agreeing with you is holding it to a ridiculous standard that I sincerely doubt many of you hold many other movies to. You're right, I remember all those films that CD didn't think about the politics and implications of. This board had a five page discussion on the race relations implied by the Barbershop movies. Someone here wrote a 30,000 word essay on the loving Transformers movies. I've read top notch analysis of loving 'Jack and Jill' on here. Snowman_McK fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Feb 27, 2018 |
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Feb 27, 2018 00:34
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Arist posted:It's not, though. This movie is clearly more thoughtful than any of those other movies. It's a movie called 'Black Panther' where an African King works with a CIA agent to stop a villainous member of the Black Diaspora from giving guns to oppressed black people. Luckily, the CIA agent shoots down the planes (by remote) and the African king stabs the member of the Black Diaspora through the heart. What was the part they thought about? Even if it's more thoughtful than the one about the reformed arms manufacturer who builds superweapons or the nazi punching super-soldier who now works for the secret police, that's a loving low bar.
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Feb 27, 2018 00:53
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