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Fat_Cow posted:Anyone know the title of the song off the OST that played during during T'chanka being crowned king and during the credits at some point? If you mean the one with chanting that sounds like it includes t'challa's name it is 'Warrior Falls'. The soundtrack to this was way better than I expect from marvel. They did a great job layering western style orchestral stuff with african musical influences, and it adds a lot of energy to the action sequences. My favourite is the one that plays during the Korean club fight sequence with that fast paced female vocal bark (I'm not sure what the proper term for that noise is).
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Feb 17, 2018 14:58
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Unexpectedly for disney, the movie takes a principled stance against imperialism rather than presenting a skin deep empowerment message. Killmonger has justified and sympathetic grievances, but his solution is to embrace imperialism. It is explicitly stated that he will actually just be a new avatar of white imperialism, replacing wakanda's nonimperialist culture with his own western derived one. Him burning the flowers that connect them to their past kings isn't just a random act of evil, it is a literalisation of his severing of their cultural history. Some people are going to side with him out of an impulse to support vengeance against the white ruling class. But this interpretation is in its own way a form of American imperialism, forcing the African American experience onto the rest of Africa. Consider: if you arm insurrections across the world in how many countries will it be black people overthrowing white people, rather than one ethnic group overthrowing another? The American perspective is to assume black racial and cultural unity against white oppression, whereas Africans do not see themselves as racially and culturally homogeneous. Many African nations have dealt with both white western powers arming insurrectionist militias, as well as other African nations doing the same. So they are probably less keen on the idea of an African superpower upping the fire power and assuming control of the political direction of other nations. T'challa contrasts with killmonger because his perspective is of the privileged wakandans. Again, as Africa is not racially and culturally homogeneous he cannot use blackness to declare himself history's victim and defer all responsibility. His people are complicit in the state of the world, as they preserved themselves in not just modest comfort but extreme techno-luxury, at the expense of helping everyone else. He realises this through his father's treatment of Erik, as t'chaka's stated reason for abandoning him is in order to preserve their line, literally abandoning another black life in order to protect their comfortable social order. T'challa's perspective is informed by guilt rather than vengeance, and so his efforts to improve the world will be through humanitarian aide rather than military force. Military imperialism with beneficial intentions, otherwise known as liberal interventionism, doesn't have such a good real world history and it would be a poo poo message to suggest it as a viable solution to the world's problems. Especially when there is no real world wakanda so the message would have to be projected onto real nations.
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Feb 18, 2018 02:05
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nopantsjack posted:"here is our vibranium powered super MRI machine, you can use it to-" MCU America already has a stockpile of alien tech so powerful that even amateurs were able to turn it into superweapons more destructive than anything the wakandans are depicted using.
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Feb 18, 2018 15:23
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People are interpreting Killmonger through a purely american frame of reference, fantasising about taking down a white ruling class. Meanwhile, modern Africa has experienced a whole bunch of ruthless despotic leaders manipulating anti-white, anti-western sentiment while preaching pan-africanism. Some of these real world leaders even have echoes of Killmonger's backstory, where they originally worked with CIA approval before turning against the west. It historically hasn't turned out well. On top of that, wakanda being a wealthy nation arming insurrectionist militias with a pretext of identity unification is most clearly reminiscent of various wealthy Arab states arming either Islamic identitarian or Arab identitarian militias across the middle east. Again, hasn't turned out too well. Or perhaps, given their economic and military power compared to their neighbors, it could turn out like China, absorbing unwilling neighboring states and claiming that they were always united. Ultimately, while some people want to cheer him on with visions of overthrowing whitey, other than America there isn't a modern country in Africa with a clear white ruling class, meaning you would be arming black ethnic groups against other black ethnic groups. Once again, the modern history of such things hasn't played out too well. The reaction to this movie from some people is good old American liberal interventionism, this time with an African-American twist, but the exact same process of taking your own political context and, with the pretext of good intentions, supporting the use of military force to push it onto regions whose modern political and cultural history you are completely ignorant of.
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Feb 19, 2018 11:30
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KVeezy3 posted:The last 30 years have shown us that liberalism is a failed ideology. Clinton's lost is only a symptom of this. I know that your ideas makes you feel like you're being "realistic" and "rational", but you seem unwilling to recognize that that is how ideology functions, and that liberalism already has violence occurring, just the "normal" level so it doesn't even feel like it's happening. What compelling vision does either killmonger or wakanda as lead by t'challa offer that could justify armed revolution? Revolution might be nice but that doesn't mean you should just support all revolutions as a concept rather than with at least some critical assessment of their values. Just correctly identifying that the current order sucks isnt enough to make you the solution. Killmonger specifically does nothing to suggest he would lead positive revolutionary change, and plenty to suggest he would be very bad. I cannot possibly cover them all but it should be mandatory to do at least some basic google research of the terms "african dictator" or "pan-african dictator" to see how many of africa's worst modern human rights abusers rose to power in the same basic way and with the same ideology as killmonger. They even share many backstory elements like being educated in the west. Wakanda proper is barely better to lead global armed revolution. They are a privileged nation that has always been complicit in the state of the world by virtue of inaction. Their political system is a monarchy. Sure they have advanced technology, but the only moral advantage they are shown to have in comparison to other privileged nations is that they don't have a history of imperialism. Suggesting they finance global insurrection is to suggest they should take that away and become imperialist too. Liberal incrementalism has failed at home, but foreign policy has been liberal interventionism: arming the "good" insurgents in foreign countries. It has been even more disastrous than domestic incrementalism, and there is nothing to suggest wakanda would do it better. Meanwhile, humanitarian aid abroad has had considerable successes.
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Mar 2, 2018 13:31
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:People are criticizing the movie for the fact that its creators had a whacked-out sci-fi world but could not imagine something more impressive than outreach centres. If it got more sci-fi with it then it would be in danger of suggesting that advanced technology is the cure for social ills, rather than genuine social change. That would probably appeal to a lot of silicon valley minded people but would distract from or at the very least muddy the waters on its central moral conflict between peaceful global humanitarianism and violent interventionism. It might end up like Elysium: where the movie tried to talk about economic inequality in access to medicine, but then its conclusion fails to connect with the real world because they solve everything by simply stealing the sci-fi magic instant cure-all machines. Sci-fi tech solves the problem too easy, so the depicted solution no longer relates to the real world social and structural problems the movie was trying to evoke. The only way I can think of that would work better is if they mentioned some specific functions of the outreach centres. Something like: we will organise and fund civil rights lobbying and activism through here, or legal defence and education funds. I just assumed that is what they were getting at since that is how it usually works for western/UN outreach in places like the middle east.
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Mar 2, 2018 15:05
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temple posted:which is why I wished t'challa had used his un speech to call for sactions against the us and the west in general. Wakanda can't really impose a sanction affecting their own trade with the US because the status quo is already zero meaningful trade by virtue of their history of isolationism and faux poverty. They could say that they will commence trading vibranium with everyone but the west unless they can meet certain requirements, but then it would be pretty difficult to stop the US getting it from those other countries, so it's kind of a toothless threat. Plus suddenly declaring advanced military strength and immediately rallying for trade sanctions in the same speech is more or less an early declaration on the path to war. Or basically declares instant cold war. It would be ridiculous to use their first real reveal to the UN as a call for other nations to make sanctions, since they have zero military or diplomatic history with other countries, and as of yet no established market power. Wakanda has to become a globally integrated economic power before they have any real hope of achieving such influence. So they could suggest that they plan on building global influence that will demand more US accountability, but that is a bit nuanced for a speech in a blockbuster movie (although it could be handled through superhero metaphor if given a whole sequel to illustrate the idea). Any realistic theory for how a new global superpower might help push the world towards equality or world peace is going to be pretty loving complicated so they are better off keeping it vague rather than trying to lay out a complete diplomatic theory, something which entire UN conferences rarely achieve. A vague statement about global unity will probably have better results than a vague statement about punishing the west.
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Mar 2, 2018 15:51
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YOLOsubmarine posted:To quote another review The good guy also thinks wakanda has been selfish by the end of the movie, leaving only their attitude towards war to differentiate them. All of these reviews cowardly avoid outright stating that they are disappointed the movie didn't advocate global race war. It's a black lead western studio production, its very existence is a result of racial cooperation without violent coercion. It was never going to advocate literal militarised race war as a solution.
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Mar 2, 2018 17:48
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