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The industry thread has been pretty popular, but it's also almost five years old. The industry and these forums are both in a different state these days, and it seems like a good time for a fresh start. So, welcome to the industry thread! This thread is for discussing the business side of tabletop gaming, including current events, release schedules, what artists and writers are paid, getting into the business or encouraging others to do so, the do's and don'ts of running a business, community management, and so on. Discussion that doesn't directly relate to business matters is probably best served in another thread (Kickstarter chat that isn't in the context of the wider industry should go in the KS thread, for instance), but otherwise knock yourselves out.
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Feb 15, 2018 09:51
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Thread title should be "TG As An Industry: Failing Forward" imo.
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Feb 15, 2018 10:15
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Wait, then which thread do we use for the latest gossip and online drama discussion? Guys I may have been using the last thread wrong. Kai Tave posted:Thread title should be "TG As An Industry: Failing Also when you think about it, Paradox's purchase of White Wolf really is the epitome of Yes, but Bedlamdan fucked around with this message at 12:01 on Feb 15, 2018 |
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Feb 15, 2018 11:56
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Bedlamdan posted:Also when you think about it, Paradox's purchase of White Wolf really is the epitome of Yes, but 
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Feb 15, 2018 13:05
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To continue the discussion of indie publishing from the prior thread, I backed the Stars Without Numbers revised kickstarter, and not only is it the only kickstarter I've ever backed that delivered ahead of schedule, it also gave out regular updates without missing a beat, and they were all helpful and informative. So yeah, if Kevin Crawford is going full-time off his work I'm really not surprised why. He also didn't address his backers in a creepy wizard voice, so that's a plus.
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Feb 15, 2018 13:30
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Nuns with Guns posted:To continue the discussion of indie publishing from the prior thread, I backed the Stars Without Numbers revised kickstarter, and not only is it the only kickstarter I've ever backed that delivered ahead of schedule, it also gave out regular updates without missing a beat, and they were all helpful and informative. So yeah, if Kevin Crawford is going full-time off his work I'm really not surprised why. He also didn't address his backers in a creepy wizard voice, so that's a plus. Kevin Crawford is, in my eyes, the uncontested champion of RPG kickstarters. The man never misses a beat and even if you're not someone who goes for his stuff normally you have to admit it's superbly and expertly done, with solid production values and, yes, delivers ahead of schedule. There's literally no one else I can think of who I can say all of those things about. If he ran a course on how to be a consummate professional in the field of RPG kickstarter delivery I'd sign up immediately.
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Feb 15, 2018 13:41
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Another success of the KS model is Shadow of the Demon Lord. I gotta hand it to Rob Schwalb, he managed to put out 1 supplement for the game per week for almost a year.
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Feb 15, 2018 13:48
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Pinnacle Kickstarters have been pretty consistently on time (Or even early for the PDF deliveries) I think the only one I've backed where there was even a slight delay was when a literal epidemic caused their fulfillment warehouse to be closed down for a few days, and even then they let us know.
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Feb 15, 2018 13:54
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In some ways, it's not really surprising that we're seeing more professional Kickstarters. It's no longer a new model so the pitfalls are more clearly known and there are increasingly formalized best practices. You also have a lot more KS veterans coming around to their third or fourth campaign, and you're seeing more cases where those experienced campaign runners are helping out new creators too. That's more prevalent in the video game space, where KS manager is rapidly becoming an actual job title, but you do see it in table top as well. And creators who had the chops to succeed without KS are turning to it, and they generally start at a more professional level in the first place.
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Feb 15, 2018 14:28
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Nifara posted:Kevin Crawford is, in my eyes, the uncontested champion of RPG kickstarters. The man never misses a beat and even if you're not someone who goes for his stuff normally you have to admit it's superbly and expertly done, with solid production values and, yes, delivers ahead of schedule. I think he’s written up what he’s done in various places but IIRC it boils down to having the work (writing, lining up artists, etc) done before you launch the kickstarter. Makes everything else run smoothly.
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Feb 15, 2018 15:04
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Surprised nobody brought up Paizo when it comes to profitable RPG companies.
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Feb 15, 2018 15:04
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Serf posted:Another success of the KS model is Shadow of the Demon Lord. I gotta hand it to Rob Schwalb, he managed to put out 1 supplement for the game per week for almost a year. I literally cannot keep up with his supplement production. How much of it does he write himself?
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Feb 15, 2018 15:05
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Surprised nobody brought up Paizo when it comes to profitable RPG companies. Yeah, Paizo are a pretty interesting case because they're clearly in the business of selling RPGs, not designing RPGs. They've twigged that a good product is less important to the bottom line than a good sales engine, and they're riding that train as far as it'll go.
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Feb 15, 2018 15:25
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potatocubed posted:Yeah, Paizo are a pretty interesting case because they're clearly in the business of selling RPGs, not designing RPGs. They've twigged that a good product is less important to the bottom line than a good sales engine, and they're riding that train as far as it'll go. Right now it's a question of how much further it's going to go, things like Starfinger show that they want to expand but their business model itself really limits how much they can change what they're working with unless they want to flip the coin on whether or not they'll win an edition war of their own making
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Feb 15, 2018 17:38
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Starfinder has been stupid successful for them, so don't expect much change.
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Feb 15, 2018 17:40
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Arivia posted:Starfinder has been stupid successful for them, so don't expect much change. Anything besides anecdotal on that? Only thing I can find is some anecdotal stuff about them being sold out places, which means anything from raging demand to a small print run or small order sizes
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Feb 15, 2018 17:54
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Darwinism posted:Anything besides anecdotal on that? Only thing I can find is some anecdotal stuff about them being sold out places, which means anything from raging demand to a small print run or small order sizes Starfinder in Paizo's own words sold out very quickly in general. Their entire print run was gone, not just of the core rulebooks but auxiliary stuff too. Paizo quickly ran a second print run including things they don't normally do second printings of, like the first two volumes of the Dead Suns adventure path. This is not their usual second printing setup for even staple Pathfinder books - they rushed it ASAP. The source is their big blog on their website, probably around December or earlier last year. They were very happy with its success.
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Feb 15, 2018 18:03
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No one has hard data on Paizo sales of anything, ever, because Paizo doesn't publish that data.
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Feb 15, 2018 18:50
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I can believe that Starfinger is doing pretty well. Time will tell if it's a long-term success, but I think it's smart to focus on sci-fi since D&D is evidently eating their lunch on the fantasy side.
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Feb 15, 2018 18:53
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Arivia posted:Starfinder in Paizo's own words sold out very quickly in general. Their entire print run was gone, not just of the core rulebooks but auxiliary stuff too. Paizo quickly ran a second print run including things they don't normally do second printings of, like the first two volumes of the Dead Suns adventure path. This is not their usual second printing setup for even staple Pathfinder books - they rushed it ASAP. Yeah, it's just impossible to find out the size of their printings so that info by itself is basically meaningless; okay, they sold out, but they could have had five book print run so...
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Feb 15, 2018 19:11
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Darwinism posted:Yeah, it's just impossible to find out the size of their printings so that info by itself is basically meaningless; okay, they sold out, but they could have had five book print run so... It's not. We don't need objective numbers, we can conclude that it was profitable and a success because of Paizo's reach, presentation, and their statements on the matter. You might not be familiar with Paizo's releases, but they don't do five copy print runs, and they sell through much more than that. Besides, the original statement was that Starfinder was successful enough that Paizo as a company won't be adjusting their strategy to break away from "3.5 but with some different stuff." That doesn't necessitate specific numbers, just statements of its relationship to their usual product releases, which Paizo has presented plenty of. Starfinder has been a big success for Paizo and will not lead to them changing their product design because it is successful as it follows their usual product strategy.
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Feb 15, 2018 19:18
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Arivia posted:
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Feb 15, 2018 19:23
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Elizabeth Mills posted:it's important also to mention that it is very bad, which it shares with PF and 5e, but somehow that hasn't translated into poor sales, which I find very frustrating. Starfinger is a success because they've cornered the market on D&D 3.5 nerds who won't even change what system they use under pain of death. So all they had to do was make the same product with a sci-fi flavor to it and their fanbase would come salivating like Pavlov's dogs and buy it all up. It's the classic 'identify your whales and sell aggressively to them' model. I'm pretty sure when they debuted it at Gen Con they deliberately under-printed the rulebooks to create a scarcity problem and increase demand, much like Plaid Hat did with Dead of Winter and Seafall. Honestly, the reason why D&D5e is so aggressively mediocre with clear 3.x influences was probably to prevent Paizo from manufacturing another edition war to drive their sales. If 5e had been too much like 4e they still could've gone "WIZARDS IS STILL COMING TO TAKE YOUR 3.5e BOOKS AWAY FROM YOU, BUY PATHFINDER", because, y'know, no true D&D fan likes anything other than 3.x.
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Feb 15, 2018 19:37
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If this thread has proven anything, quality of game has absolutely nothing to do with its sales, at least for RPGs. And nah 5e is bad because Mike Mearls is an unthinking amazingly unoriginal shitlord. He made 5e because he literally couldn’t think of anything better.
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Feb 15, 2018 19:46
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its because WOTC wants $$$$$
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Feb 15, 2018 19:56
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Surprised nobody brought up Paizo when it comes to profitable RPG companies. Paizo is a successful RPG company and they're also something of an outlier these days, they aren't a model that anyone else can really hope to replicate since a fair chunk of their success is largely due to unique circumstances.
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Feb 15, 2018 20:21
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Where did the meme of calling it Starfinger come from?
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Feb 15, 2018 20:23
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Subjunctive posted:I literally cannot keep up with his supplement production. How much of it does he write himself? I think over the past year he wrote maybe 1/3 of them. And the weekly supplements were separate from the KS-funded supplements too. I have no idea how he keeps up with all of it.
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Feb 15, 2018 20:28
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whydirt posted:Where did the meme of calling it Starfinger come from? I think it was a misprint in their core rulebook? Alien Rope Burn knows much better, since they wrote the FATAL and Friends entry on it. Edit: You owe it to yourself to read that entry, especially all of the quotes from the creative director. I'm not sure I would've let him anywhere near a group designing an RPG, let alone Pathfinder. I definitely would not have let him speak in public. LuiCypher fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Feb 15, 2018 |
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Feb 15, 2018 20:29
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Pretty sure it was just that ARB typoed it once and it stuck.
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Feb 15, 2018 20:40
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senrath posted:Pretty sure it was just that ARB typoed it once and it stuck. I assumed it was him implying that Starfinder was a big middle finger to innovation, but like any true art multiple interpretations will occur. dwarf74 posted:I can believe that Starfinger is doing pretty well. Time will tell if it's a long-term success, but I think it's smart to focus on sci-fi since D&D is evidently eating their lunch on the fantasy side. Starfinder is also useful as a back door to retcon in middling rules updates when they inevitably publish the adventure path that explains what happened to Golarion. Plenty of opportunity there to include supplemental books with "conversion guides" to port all your favorite vanilla Pathfinder classes, monsters, and items to new Starfinder rules. Wow!
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Feb 15, 2018 20:56
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Arivia posted:It's not. We don't need objective numbers, we can conclude that it was profitable and a success because of Paizo's reach, presentation, and their statements on the matter. You might not be familiar with Paizo's releases, but they don't do five copy print runs, and they sell through much more than that. So the question is if Starfinder is a good enough success to keep Paizo going on this model and your argument is that they say they're doing awesomely so that must mean it's true? These are the people that brought us Pathfinder Online - they're very good in their niche, but they're not flawless deities of business. And honestly their current market is gonna continue shrinking bit by bit unless they do try different stuff - so they'll either shrink with their market or try to change. Though yeah my money would be on shrinking with the market opposed to changing, too.
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Feb 15, 2018 21:37
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Darwinism posted:Though yeah my money would be on shrinking with the market opposed to changing, too. Their business is build on attracting 3.x grogs, who are very sensitive to change, so yeah Paizo's likely to shrink with their market while pumping out a half-dozen iterations of a 15-year-old system.
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Feb 16, 2018 00:43
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Has Green Ronin released that timeline that explains everything yet?
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Feb 16, 2018 02:47
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Not in this timeline.
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Feb 16, 2018 03:02
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Feels like all that’s needed to pull the rug out from Paizo is for Wizards to release a setting that’s explicitly “D&D, but in Space.”
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Feb 16, 2018 03:03
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See, there was a miscommunication. What they meant was that there's an alternate timeline where their actions made sense. They just went down the wrong trouser leg of time.
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Feb 16, 2018 03:15
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Simian_Prime posted:Feels like all that’s needed to pull the rug out from Paizo is for Wizards to release a setting that’s explicitly “D&D, but in Space.” That was assume Wizards wants to use D&D for anything other than as a product to keep the brand warm while holding their essentially permanent stake in the market. Only recently did they even start making D&D stuff set in some of the MtG settings. If there's any sort of vision in Wizards, it's squarely part of their MtG brands and far, far away from their D&D brands.
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Feb 16, 2018 03:16
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Simian_Prime posted:Feels like all that’s needed to pull the rug out from Paizo is for Wizards to release a setting that’s explicitly “D&D, but in Space.” I'm still mad 4e Starjammer never happened, tbh.
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Feb 16, 2018 03:17
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Xelkelvos posted:That was assume Wizards wants to use D&D for anything other than as a product to keep the brand warm while holding their essentially permanent stake in the market. Only recently did they even start making D&D stuff set in some of the MtG settings. If there's any sort of vision in Wizards, it's squarely part of their MtG brands and far, far away from their D&D brands. I used to think releasing a D&D Campaign setting in Dominaria was dead-easy money, most of the lore was written just codify and slap on some prestige classes. I now see that WotC was correct to keep those brands far apart. Not because they hate money, but because they don't want their golden goose to get tainted with the stink of D&D.
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Feb 16, 2018 03:26
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