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chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014

We can't stop here! This is cat country!


Pham Nuwen posted:

I did some shopping this morning and picked up a whole chicken, some steaks, and some chicken breasts. I also have shrimp and fish (tilapia, I think, or maybe catfish) in the freezer, plus ground beef. Other ingredients kicking around: potatoes, onions, eggs, celery, turnips, beans, mushrooms.

Got any recommendations for an interesting recipe using one or more of these? I couldn't get mace or saffron at the store today but I have most other spices and some dried herbs.

I'm planning to try Townsend's baked beans recipe tonight, if you can really call it Townsend's recipe because it's just navy beans, molasses, salt pork (I'm using bacon ends), and onions. My cast iron pot is too big for the size of batch I'm making, so I'll probably cook it in a casserole in the oven instead of in the fire.

All Gode Cookery is probably the best resource for medieval recipes. They provide the original text and often convert it to a modern recipe with proper measurements and instructions.

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Pham Nuwen
Oct 30, 2010



Gelyne in dubbatte (http://www.godecookery.com/goderec/grec2.htm)

Or, chicken in spiced wine. I quartered the raw chicken, then baked it at 350 for about 45 minutes while I prepared the sauce. I didn't have mace so I used about 1/3 tsp nutmeg instead. I used a blender to get the breadcrumbs thoroughly incorporated into the mix.

Chicken into a pot:



Sauce onto the chicken:



Then I baked it at 375 for an additional 45 minutes, resulting in:



It's not a particularly attractive dish when you're done:



But the flavor was pretty good. It's juicy, probably because the initial bake didn't cook it fully meaning it was still fully of water which it retained in the braising stage. The clove comes through, less so the cinnamon or nutmeg, but all in all it's an interesting change from the usual flavors you get with chicken.

Improvements: I should have removed the skin before pouring in the wine sauce to allow for better penetration; you can see above how half the thigh is still pretty light because it was covered by the skin. The skin picks up flavor, yes, but the texture isn't very good. I seem to remember other historical recipes specifying that chicken skin should be removed, so maybe that was always assumed. The recipe also doesn't specify if you need to cover the dish for the second phase of cooking; I started with it off but covered it partway through as the sauce started to evaporate.

Also, I don't know what to do with the leftover sauce, which used most of a bottle of wine and is now just sitting here--maybe reduce it?

Samizdata
May 14, 2007


Pham Nuwen posted:

Gelyne in dubbatte (http://www.godecookery.com/goderec/grec2.htm)

Or, chicken in spiced wine. I quartered the raw chicken, then baked it at 350 for about 45 minutes while I prepared the sauce. I didn't have mace so I used about 1/3 tsp nutmeg instead. I used a blender to get the breadcrumbs thoroughly incorporated into the mix.

Chicken into a pot:



Sauce onto the chicken:



Then I baked it at 375 for an additional 45 minutes, resulting in:



It's not a particularly attractive dish when you're done:



But the flavor was pretty good. It's juicy, probably because the initial bake didn't cook it fully meaning it was still fully of water which it retained in the braising stage. The clove comes through, less so the cinnamon or nutmeg, but all in all it's an interesting change from the usual flavors you get with chicken.

Improvements: I should have removed the skin before pouring in the wine sauce to allow for better penetration; you can see above how half the thigh is still pretty light because it was covered by the skin. The skin picks up flavor, yes, but the texture isn't very good. I seem to remember other historical recipes specifying that chicken skin should be removed, so maybe that was always assumed. The recipe also doesn't specify if you need to cover the dish for the second phase of cooking; I started with it off but covered it partway through as the sauce started to evaporate.

Also, I don't know what to do with the leftover sauce, which used most of a bottle of wine and is now just sitting here--maybe reduce it?

I think it looks amazing, and I want it in my belly NOW!

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009
IRL DEBUFFED KOBOLD


1) that is dope as hell and awesome!

2) as to what to do with the wine, maybe sautť some shallots and reduce it with that and mix it with butter? That's basically a beurre de marchand du vin already and that's a pretty good thing to have in the fridge. Goes great on steak and veggies.

By popular demand
Jul 17, 2007

IT *BZZT* WASP ME--
IT WASP ME ALL *BZZT* ALONG!


I'm so hungry all of a sudden.

Remember your ABCs man: Always Be Concentrating.

The concentrate would be great for beef dishes I think.

E:^^^ serves me right for not reading the responses.

Foxfire_
Nov 8, 2010


Pretty sure you're supposed to give the leftover wine to the poor beggars outside the castle

Suspect Bucket
Jan 14, 2012

SHRIMPDOR WAS A MAN
I mean, HE WAS A SHRIMP MAN
er, maybe also A DRAGON
or possibly
A MINOR LEAGUE BASEBALL TEAM
BUT HE WAS STILL
SHRIMPDOR


Foxfire_ posted:

Pretty sure you're supposed to give the leftover wine to the poor beggars outside the castle

Along with your trenchers the dogs didn't want to eat

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014

We can't stop here! This is cat country!


Suspect Bucket posted:

Along with your trenchers the dogs didn't want to eat

The guy who made that mawmenny recipe said he poured it over rice and it reminded him of Indian food, but I'm going for authenticity and using really old stale bread.

Oscar Wilde Bunch
Jun 12, 2012



Grimey Drawer

Liquid Communism posted:

If you want some good entertainment and insight on 18th century (and a few earlier recipes) cooking, check out JAS Townsend & Son's Youtube channel. They're a reproduction wares house for historical recreators, but have a huge passion for how poo poo was actually done, and do a ton of very educational content on old recipes. Their mushroom ketchup recipe is a favorite of mine, although I don't make it often.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29u_FejNuks

In additional notes, the SCA folks do a lot of work on recreating medieval recipes for modern use. I've made a few from Cariadoc's Miscellany that turned out pretty okay.

My favorite of his are all the "this is technically food, it has calories and if you eat it you won't die of starvation" videos.

It also made me realize how hard it is to find suet that isn't meant for birds.

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014

We can't stop here! This is cat country!


I just bought the ingredients for mawmenny, and I'm on track to make it for dinner tonight. A lot of alcohol is involved, none of which is going into the dish. The trenchers will be day-old whole grain bread left out for over 24 hours.

bunnyofdoom
Mar 29, 2008



You cannot kill yourself until you finish 7.62 man.

Also, now that I loving finally have time, I'm gonna make a historical chicken reciepe, hopefully next weekend.

JacquelineDempsey
Aug 6, 2008

It's a horrible name for anything really but especially a shirt.


chitoryu12 posted:

I just bought the ingredients for mawmenny, and I'm on track to make it for dinner tonight. A lot of alcohol is involved, none of which is going into the dish. The trenchers will be day-old whole grain bread left out for over 24 hours.

Went back in the thread to see what mawmenny you were referencing. It calls for 2c almond milk, which kinda puzzled me. Were there vegan co-op shopping hipsters back in ye olden days, or was almond milk a staple in cultures without cows, or times when dairy wasn't safe/plentiful? (Serious question, with a little bit of I-used-to-work-at-a-co-op bitterness added).

It sounds loving delicious, though. Eagerly awaiting results!

willing to settle
Apr 13, 2011


JacquelineDempsey posted:

Went back in the thread to see what mawmenny you were referencing. It calls for 2c almond milk, which kinda puzzled me. Were there vegan co-op shopping hipsters back in ye olden days, or was almond milk a staple in cultures without cows, or times when dairy wasn't safe/plentiful? (Serious question, with a little bit of I-used-to-work-at-a-co-op bitterness added).

It sounds loving delicious, though. Eagerly awaiting results!

It was a common thing in wealthy medieval European kitchens because of the dual factors of keeping a whole lot better than cow's milk and being lenten and generally appropriate for fast days.

EDIT: I made a mawmeny ages ago and it is indeed pretty good, though it's pretty similar to a lot of the other meals in the medieval European genre of "thick stews with pumpkin pie spice".

willing to settle fucked around with this message at Apr 22, 2018 around 23:22

JacquelineDempsey
Aug 6, 2008

It's a horrible name for anything really but especially a shirt.


willing to settle posted:

It was a common thing in wealthy medieval European kitchens because of the dual factors of keeping a whole lot better than cow's milk and being lenten and generally appropriate for fast days.

Ah! Thanks, that make sense. Weird how something trendy for medieval wealthy is trendy again for modern people who can afford almond milk, though for totally different reasons. What goes around comes around, I guess.

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014

We can't stop here! This is cat country!




I think a LOT more saffron is necessary for this much food.

By popular demand
Jul 17, 2007

IT *BZZT* WASP ME--
IT WASP ME ALL *BZZT* ALONG!


Careful now, saffron is meant to be used sparingly and not to dominate the dish.

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014

We can't stop here! This is cat country!


Horrible Lurkbeast posted:

Careful now, saffron is meant to be used sparingly and not to dominate the dish.

Iíll post the recipe in a bit, but the pinch suggested didnít add really anything to the flavor or color.

It came out very sweet, in fact. All of the other spices are equaled by the amount of sugar.

Liquid Communism
Mar 9, 2004



Fun Shoe

willing to settle posted:

It was a common thing in wealthy medieval European kitchens because of the dual factors of keeping a whole lot better than cow's milk and being lenten and generally appropriate for fast days.

EDIT: I made a mawmeny ages ago and it is indeed pretty good, though it's pretty similar to a lot of the other meals in the medieval European genre of "thick stews with pumpkin pie spice".

One thing I've learned from historical recipes is that 'nutmeg' is a verb, and they will use it liberally.

chitoryu12 posted:

Iíll post the recipe in a bit, but the pinch suggested didnít add really anything to the flavor or color.

It came out very sweet, in fact. All of the other spices are equaled by the amount of sugar.

Did you use unsweetened almond milk? The historical version was likely just pressed almonds, as sugar was somewhat expensive on its own.

By popular demand
Jul 17, 2007

IT *BZZT* WASP ME--
IT WASP ME ALL *BZZT* ALONG!


Apparently you can get high off nutmeg with awful after effects, I wonder if someone tried that back and wrote about this.

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014

We can't stop here! This is cat country!


Liquid Communism posted:

Did you use unsweetened almond milk? The historical version was likely just pressed almonds, as sugar was somewhat expensive on its own.

I did, since I kept that in consideration when making purchases. I also served it on authentically stale whole grain bread, which Joey said tasted even better than the chicken after it was done soaking in.

willing to settle
Apr 13, 2011


I tend to find that the medieval... I suppose you could call them "curries", most suited to modern tastes are the ones that rely more heavily on vinegar and in the case of Andalusian Arabic food, a soy sauce analogue. Balancing out the sweetness and warm spices with some sourness or savoriness was pretty common and creates a more contemporary flavor profile.

deadly_pudding
May 13, 2009


Horrible Lurkbeast posted:

Apparently you can get high off nutmeg with awful after effects, I wonder if someone tried that back and wrote about this.

You have to eat like an unforgivable quantity of nutmeg for this, IIRC, and then it's not even a good trip.

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014

We can't stop here! This is cat country!


All right, here's the rest of the pictures and the recipe, from Two Fifteenth Century Cookery Books 1430-1450.

quote:

Malmenye Furne. Take gode Milke of Almaundys, & flowre of Rys, & gode Wyne crete, or the brawn of a Capoune, other of Fesaunte, & Sugre, & pouder Gyngere, & Galyngale, & of Canelle, & boyle y-fere; & make it chargeaunt, & coloure it with Alkenade, other with Saunderys; & if it be Red, a-lye it with olkys of Eyroun; & make smal cofyns of dow, & coloure hem with-owte, & bake on an ovyn, & coloure with-ynne & wyth-oute; then haue Hony y-boylid hote, & take a dyssche, & wete thin dyssche in the hony, & with the wete dyssche ley the malmenye & the cofyns; & whan they ben bake, & thou dressest yn, caste a-boue blaunche pouder, Quybibe, mace, Gelofre; & thanne serue it forth.

quote:

1 pound chicken
2 cups almond milk
2 egg yolks
2 Tbsp. rice flour
1 Tbsp. sugar
1/4 tsp. galingale
1/4 tsp. salt
1/8 tsp. cinnamon
1/8 tsp. cloves
1/8 tsp. mace
pinch saffron

Chop the chicken finely and place in a large pot. Whisk together almond milk, egg yolks, and rice flour and add to chicken. Add spices and bring to a low boil. Simmer until thick, and serve hot.



I only have a pic of most of the ingredients because Joey was mixing the almond milk, eggs, and rice flour behind me.





As you can see, a pinch of saffron wasn't quite enough to affect a pot of this size. The bread is Publix whole grain bread that I left out for 24 hours.

General verdict is "fine". The amount of spices is relatively small when mixed into such a large quantity of liquid, so you'd want either more spices or half the amount of mawmenny to flavor. It's gently sweet and has no vinegar, wine, or heavy spices like black pepper to balance it. Pairs well with nigori sake.

Soricidus
Oct 20, 2010
freedom-hating statist shill

Pillbug

chitoryu12 posted:

It's gently sweet and has no vinegar, wine, or heavy spices like black pepper to balance it.

Thereís wine in the medieval recipe but not in the modernisation for some reason. Lost in translation?

(Although I think wyne crete is sweet wine)

By popular demand
Jul 17, 2007

IT *BZZT* WASP ME--
IT WASP ME ALL *BZZT* ALONG!


Tangential to the subject of saffron, try lightly toasting some then crumble it into your cookie mix.
It makes snickerdoodles taste terrific and would probably complement other types of cookies.

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014

We can't stop here! This is cat country!


Soricidus posted:

Thereís wine in the medieval recipe but not in the modernisation for some reason. Lost in translation?

(Although I think wyne crete is sweet wine)

Ah, now I see it. I'm thinking "wyne crete" might be literal, as in wine from Crete. I did some looking and I think Crete really was just called Crete in English at the time despite being under Venetian rule. The index for the book has it listed separately from "swete wyne".

Davin Valkri
Apr 8, 2011

Maybe you're weighing the moral pros and cons but let me assure you that OH MY GOD
SHOOT ME IN THE GODDAMNED FACE
WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR?!


Saffron is pretty pricey outside of Asian markets today; it was probably even more so when the recipe was written. Is this dish just intended as a platform to show off a nobleman's spice rack?

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014

We can't stop here! This is cat country!


Davin Valkri posted:

Saffron is pretty pricey outside of Asian markets today; it was probably even more so when the recipe was written. Is this dish just intended as a platform to show off a nobleman's spice rack?

Pretty much every wealthy manís dish from medieval times has at least 3 or 4 different spices and herbs, in addition to salt and possibly sugar.

Mr. Wiggles
Dec 1, 2003

I would never shop at Costco. The paper towels won't fit into my sports car!

If the saffron is mostly for colour instead of flavor, try using Mexican saffron (safflower) or marigold instead.

By popular demand
Jul 17, 2007

IT *BZZT* WASP ME--
IT WASP ME ALL *BZZT* ALONG!


counterpoint: saffron is not that expensive for how little you need, I could easily flavour 10-15 cups of tea with 1 gram

Soricidus
Oct 20, 2010
freedom-hating statist shill

Pillbug

chitoryu12 posted:

Ah, now I see it. I'm thinking "wyne crete" might be literal, as in wine from Crete. I did some looking and I think Crete really was just called Crete in English at the time despite being under Venetian rule. The index for the book has it listed separately from "swete wyne".

Oh, yes, Iím sure itís literal. Just the dictionary I checked also mentioned that Cretan wine implied a sweet wine in those days, which is why they might specify it instead of just any old wine.

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014

We can't stop here! This is cat country!


I've reheated the remaining portion of mawmenny so I can give a more immediate perspective.

The strongest smells from the hot food are definitely the cinnamon and nutmeg (standing in for mace). It almost smells like a dessert more than an entree. The taste is sort of milky and cinnamony at first, followed by roast chicken as you finish biting into a piece.

Zombie Dachshund
Feb 25, 2016



Iíve been making salumi for a few years now. A while back, I adapted a recipe, from Apiciusí cookbook, for lucanicae sausages. As Apicius describes them, they are smoked, but itís not obvious whether the end product is fresh (that is, needing to be eaten right away) or dried. You can find lots of adaptations of the recipe out there, but they always assume that the lucanicae are fresh. I wanted to make a dried salami.

Hereís Apiciusí recipe:

"Apicius posted:

Lucanicas similiter ut supra scriptum est: Lucanicarum confectio teritur piper, cuminum, satureia, ruta, petroselinum, condimentum, bacae lauri, liquamen, et admiscetur pulpa bene tunsa ita ut denuo bene cum ipso subtrito fricetur. Cum liquamine admixto, pipere integro et abundanti pinguedine et nucleis inicies in intestinum perquam tenuatim perductum, et sic ad fumum suspenditur.

and my translation:

quote:

Lucanicas are made much as is written above: to make lucanicae, grind pepper, cumin, savory, rue, parsley, condiment, laurel berries, liquamen, and mix it into the well-beaten meat*, so that it can be blended with the ground spice mixture. Stir in the liquamen, whole pepper, abundant fat, and pine nuts. Stuff them into a very thinly drawn out intestine and hang it by the smoke.

*heh

Apicius is notorious for being vague, so thereís a lot of room for interpretation here. Right off the bat, I avoided rue, which is hard to get (and is mildly toxic). I also left out parsley because I forgot to pick any up at the store, and used bay leaves instead of laurel berries. Apicius includes "condimentum" ("condiment") which seems to be just "spice"; I put in a little oregano.

The toughest question I had was how much fish sauce to use. For safety sake, cured meats generally need over 2% salt by weight. Knowing just how much sauce (that is, liquid salt) to use isnít obvious. Last time I went 50/50 on salt/fish sauce. I didnít die and it wasnít aggressively fishy, so this time I went with a 2:1 ratio. (I recently found out that Red Boat makes a fish salt, and Iíll order that for next time; itís less authentic but itís easier to be consistent.)

Here are the ratios I used:

Pork butt (85%), ground
Pork fat (15%), hand-cut
Black pepper (ground) 1%
Savory (dried) .1%
Oregano .1%
Cumin (ground) .4%
Pine nuts .8%
Bay leaves (ground) .1%
Black pepper (whole) .2%
Fish sauce 1.8%
Salt .9%
Cure #2 .25%
Dextrose .3%
Bactoferm F-RM-52 starter culture

Here are the non-meat ingredients (apologies for lovely phone pictures):



I stuffed it all into hog casings, which frankly I donít like working with (I prefer wider casings), but they seem like what a Roman cook would use. Hereís a loop:



These all went into the cold smoker for about six hours, then fermented for another eighteen hours. After that, into the curing chamber (recently cleaned, so theyíre alone in it for now) to dry:



Iím guessing these will take about six weeks to be ready: I want them to lose 40% of their weight. I'll report back when they are done.

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014

We can't stop here! This is cat country!


They at least sound good!

Zombie Dachshund
Feb 25, 2016



chitoryu12 posted:

They at least sound good!

Thanks! I'm looking forward to seeing how these turn out. The last batch was good and I'm hoping that more smoke and more fish funk will make them a little more interesting.

Cavenagh
Oct 9, 2007

Grrrrrrrrr.

Love the look of them. I'd have thought that they'd be more likely to be smoked to preserve than a fresh sausage. But my knowledge of cured sausage stops at eating it.

POOL IS CLOSED
Jul 14, 2011

I'm just exploding with mackerel. This is the aji wo kutta of my discontent.


Pillbug

If anyone in the thread is in the continental US wants culinary rue, I will cut and dry some for ya.

Serendipitaet
Apr 19, 2009


You all might enjoy this blog by food historian Ivan Day: http://foodhistorjottings.blogspot.nl/

I haven't read it recently and he doesn't seem to do many updates anymore, but I remember lots of cool stuff being there.

my cat is norris
Mar 11, 2010

#onecallcat



College Slice

POOL IS CLOSED posted:

If anyone in the thread is in the continental US wants culinary rue, I will cut and dry some for ya.

I'd actually be pretty interested in giving this a shot. I have PMs if you want to chat there about cost and shipping!

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Lawman 0
Aug 17, 2010



Grimey Drawer

I should cook some of the Roman stuff for my girlfriend

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