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I just use a mod to remove piracy from the game, it's vestigial at this point
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Jun 12, 2021 12:35
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Splicer posted:I mean I like the other caravan dudes and you can't get them with the caravan country on. The other guys are the Nomads, it's much less confusing if you call them that 
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Jun 12, 2021 14:59
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I wouldn't care if about piracy if the patrol function actually worked.
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Jun 12, 2021 15:34
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I feel like the time scales and the size of maps in Stellaris don't really work with nomadic starfarers around. Some dudes in a colony ship getting lost and founding a new colony, maybe, but I can't see Nomads being a thing, considering they must have been traveling the (tiny) galaxy for long enough, they'd probably be part of your species myths long before you can get to the stars themselves. I don't know, maybe if the Nomads were traveling at sub-light speeds or if they were contained to certain regions of a galaxy, so it would make sense if some species don't know about them? Any way, after a couple of tries I decided Nomads don't really have a place on my game map, since then Caravans are always turned off in my games.
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Jun 12, 2021 15:50
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toasterwarrior posted:I just use a mod to remove piracy from the game, it's vestigial at this point Vestigial implies there was a time when piracy was a good mechanic
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Jun 12, 2021 17:48
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No it doesn't
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Jun 12, 2021 18:11
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I like the concept of piracy and the flavor of lucrative trade attracting undesirables, but the way it works today is just too finicky. Like if you have a trade route that stretches from one end of your territory to another, it can be way too long for you to reasonably cover with ships while also maintaining a fleet against opponents, or the ships you use might cost you more in upkeep than the trade route is making, but you still need to cover it to prevent pirate spawns. Same with building star bases every so often to suppress it; even if you can afford it and have the star base capacity for it, the costs might not justify it. I find this especially annoying with my border fortresses that collect a trade value deposit and ship it across my entire empire, creating a tiny trickle of piracy in like 20 systems until it gets to my capital. You can turn off the trade route and the piracy build-up will stop, but every time you upgrade the star base the trade route will automatically resume again, and if you have multiple bases in systems with a trade value deposit then it becomes a lot of extra busy work. If you even remember to deactivate the route. Instead of manually assigning ships to patrol every single star lane that has any amount of trade value passing through it, I wish I could just allocate a certain portion of my naval capacity to piracy suppression and have that work as an abstraction for the whole corvette patrol spam. During times of war you could lower it in order to field more direct military power, at the cost of your economy suffering a bit. Make the costs of piracy more granular so that stomping it out completely costs more than it is worth, but having a little around isn't a huge deal, it's simply the cost of conducting trade. I don't know. I don't mind piracy as a concept, it could even stand to be expanded and given more flavor, I just feel like it needs to be.... less hands-on for the player, I guess?
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Jun 12, 2021 21:13
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I think the represented systems are supposed to be only those connected to the hyper lane network, and there are millions of isolated systems like ours irl 
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Jun 12, 2021 21:52
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Staltran posted:Vestigial implies there was a time when piracy was a good mechanic That's a very good point
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Jun 12, 2021 22:23
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a fatguy baldspot posted:I think the represented systems are supposed to be only those connected to the hyper lane network, and there are millions of isolated systems like ours irl Obviously we should speak to the space manager about not getting our hookup
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Jun 12, 2021 22:27
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AG3 posted:I like the concept of piracy and the flavor of lucrative trade attracting undesirables, but the way it works today is just too finicky. Like if you have a trade route that stretches from one end of your territory to another, it can be way too long for you to reasonably cover with ships while also maintaining a fleet against opponents, or the ships you use might cost you more in upkeep than the trade route is making, but you still need to cover it to prevent pirate spawns. Same with building star bases every so often to suppress it; even if you can afford it and have the star base capacity for it, the costs might not justify it. Libluini posted:I feel like the time scales and the size of maps in Stellaris don't really work with nomadic starfarers around. Some dudes in a colony ship getting lost and founding a new colony, maybe, but I can't see Nomads being a thing, considering they must have been traveling the (tiny) galaxy for long enough, they'd probably be part of your species myths long before you can get to the stars themselves.
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Jun 12, 2021 23:00
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Splicer posted:Piracy could be a good mechanic if it were actually fleshed out enough to be a mechanic. Why doesn't it affect crime, and vice versa? Why is their first response on taking over a system to blow up all the sources of revenue instead of using the perfectly good existing occupation mechanics? These are the right questions to ask. Piracy would work a lot better if it had more ties to the other game mechanics.
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Jun 13, 2021 02:42
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Splicer posted:Piracy could be a good mechanic if it were actually fleshed out enough to be a mechanic. Why doesn't it affect crime, and vice versa? Why is their first response on taking over a system to blow up all the sources of revenue instead of using the perfectly good existing occupation mechanics? Leave it to modders: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1824241724
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Jun 13, 2021 13:00
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Electro-Boogie Jack posted:These are the right questions to ask. Piracy would work a lot better if it had more ties to the other game mechanics. Like it's pretty weird that it has no interaction with planetary crime and/or criminal syndicates?
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Jun 13, 2021 13:03
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So I think what I would do is: 1) Do... something with how piracy hotspots are calculated. Revert to sprawl and cohesion, keep trade but change it a bunch, do both, do something completely different, I don't know. 2) Have it interact with crime. Crime ridden planets mean more piracy and nearby piracy means more crime. 3) If pirates take a system they don't blow everything up, they just occupy it. If they raid adjacent systems they, again, don't blow anything up, they just sit there soaking up all the resources for a while before going home. If it's a colony system there might be a "recent pirate raid" mallus or something. Every other iteration of pirates so far has been annoying because you have to spend money and effort to clean up after them. If they leave the infrastructure intact then it would be way less annoying, and players can choose to deal with them immediately or decide that the effort of sending a ship over isn't worth a few months' income, based on circumstances. 4) but if you do leave them alone they start getting tougher and tougher, and if left alone long enough they spawn a little pirate empire that might ally with the raider clans or ally with one of your enemies or start espionaging you or start grabbing refugees (if you're eating slaves maybe you're the bad guys after all) or whatever.
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Jun 13, 2021 16:02
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For me, the problem is that merchant vessels are abstracted away but the pirates killing them aren't. Like, pick one.
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Jun 13, 2021 16:12
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Aethernet posted:For me, the problem is that merchant vessels are abstracted away but the pirates killing them aren't. Like, pick one. A finger on the monkey’s paw curls.
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Jun 13, 2021 16:21
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Aethernet posted:For me, the problem is that merchant vessels are abstracted away but the pirates killing them aren't. Like, pick one. Nah the pirates attacking your trade are abstracted away, they just delete some/all of your trade. It's the "pirates" that blow up your stations that aren't abstracted.
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Jun 13, 2021 19:18
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My hot take is that the only thing that needs to change with pirates is removing the spawns of hostile ships. They add nothing except to be profoundly annoying. If there's piracy it can silently dilute my trade income, that's fine, and if it's too costly I can do something about it, or not. Really I think half the reason the event ships exist at all is to inform new players that piracy is a thing, but that could be done just as well by keeping the event and not spawning the ships. GunnerJ posted:Leave it to modders: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1824241724 I was really hoping for a Magna Mundi joke 
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Jun 13, 2021 19:39
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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PittTheElder posted:Really I think half the reason the event ships exist at all is to inform new players that piracy is a thing, but that could be done just as well by keeping the event and not spawning the ships. That's a really good point, and a simple change could turn it from a negative experience into a fun Stellaris moment with fluffy outcomes.
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Jun 13, 2021 21:07
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Bar Ran Dun posted:A finger on the monkey’s paw curls.
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Jun 13, 2021 21:16
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Game design rule of thumb: If your idea requires an entirely new map mode, but doesn't interact with other people's parts of the map, you probably done hosed up. It is absolutely astonishing that trade gets its own map mode and there's still no "show everyone's claims" button e: I know there's a claims mode (though why it's not down by map modes...) but the only way to find what your allies have claimed is mouseovering them Splicer fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Jun 13, 2021 |
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Jun 13, 2021 22:42
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I was astonished to discover like two weeks ago that you can click on another empire in the claims map mode and it will show you all of their claims.
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Jun 14, 2021 04:11
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PittTheElder posted:I was astonished to discover like two weeks ago that you can click on another empire in the claims map mode and it will show you all of their claims. Wow, another buried feature that makes me feel stupid for not knowing about it, despite there being no reason for me to ever know about it.
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Jun 14, 2021 06:51
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Internal trade feels like a vestigal feature that's only there so they could say they had a trade system, and so people would have a reason to build starbases anywhere besides chokepoint systems near their borders.
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Jun 14, 2021 08:00
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Vizuyos posted:Internal trade feels like a vestigal feature that's only there so they could say they had a trade system, and so people would have a reason to build starbases anywhere besides chokepoint systems near their borders. Not entirely true - Anchorages exist. And are far better at that job really.
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Jun 14, 2021 08:05
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Yami Fenrir posted:Not entirely true - Anchorages exist. And are far better at that job really. Splicer fucked around with this message at 10:37 on Jun 14, 2021 |
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Jun 14, 2021 10:35
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Splicer posted:There's anchorages, bastions, and shipyards. If you added a module or building that increased mining station production in that system, or even some form of... panel? that absorbs solar energy? and added a bunch more planet boosting starbase buildings, now there's a real choice between economy vs military when it comes to placement. It still boggles my mind that Solar Panels are restricted to Gestalts. Trade Hubs are no replacement whatsoever, especially after the Solar Panel buff.
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Jun 14, 2021 10:40
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pnumoman posted:Wow, another buried feature that makes me feel stupid for not knowing about it, despite there being no reason for me to ever know about it.
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Jun 14, 2021 10:41
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I didn't know that one either - I was aware that if you hover over a province you can see ALL empires that have a claim on it, but that'd require you to check each province individually.
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Jun 14, 2021 11:21
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It's a pretty common feature in most PDS games, in any of the info-modes you can click on someone and see their data. Should work for diplomacy/relations too unless the spy rework has hidden that information.
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Jun 14, 2021 11:49
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Yami Fenrir posted:It still boggles my mind that Solar Panels are restricted to Gestalts. Trade Hubs are no replacement whatsoever, especially after the Solar Panel buff. Well yeah, a well-placed trade station can easily generate 100+ energy from trade, while a station fully dedicated to solar panels is like, 18-36 energy, depending on bonuses? "Replacement" is such a weak word for something so much better.
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Jun 14, 2021 11:57
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Libluini posted:Well yeah, a well-placed trade station can easily generate 100+ energy from trade, while a station fully dedicated to solar panels is like, 18-36 energy, depending on bonuses?
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Jun 14, 2021 12:10
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Libluini posted:Well yeah, a well-placed trade station can easily generate 100+ energy from trade, while a station fully dedicated to solar panels is like, 18-36 energy, depending on bonuses? Except most of that comes from the planets, not the trade modules themselves. And requires Pops to be working on trade not more valuable things past the... what, 12 trade the Offworld Company provides? And, as said, spawn pirates. You need exactly as many trade hub modules as you need to collect the planetary trade and any further are pretty much a waste. Something solar panels aren't restricted by. The fact that the energy is entirely pop-independent is actually a pretty big bonus imo, especially from 3.0 onward since you just have less pops to put into trade and such. Not to mention it's (at least for me) also a suspension of disbelief thing. Why in gods name would standard organic empires not think of putting of solar panels on a starbase? Yami Fenrir fucked around with this message at 12:40 on Jun 14, 2021 |
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Jun 14, 2021 12:13
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You do also get up to 0.5 base trade per pop depending on living standards, so by midgame one station can slurp up quite a bit from planets just existing, no jobs required. What's funny is I really enjoyed trade for a while, but when 3.0 came out I had a run of playing hiveminds and turning off clerks and I realised I'd stopped actually enjoying it ages ago, and not really caring anymore was a huge relief. Compare CG and living standards which I still genuinely enjoy.
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Jun 14, 2021 13:02
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I've been having a hard time squaring the power disparity between Kinetic Artillery and Neutron Launchers. At first blush, it looks like Neutrons are going to be objectively better in almost every case except against stuff like Unbidden because the base damage plus damage bonuses against armor and hull should overcome the below-average damage against shields. I haven't done the math to solve the break-even point, but maybe someone else can show me numbers why I'm off base here?
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Jun 14, 2021 15:58
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Vizuyos posted:Internal trade feels like a vestigal feature that's only there so they could say they had a trade system, and so people would have a reason to build starbases anywhere besides chokepoint systems near their borders. I still think trade could have made more sense as an empire to empire thing, leading to situations where you could try to organize a boycott of another empire, or blockade their borders to cut off trade.
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Jun 14, 2021 16:05
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Warmachine posted:I've been having a hard time squaring the power disparity between Kinetic Artillery and Neutron Launchers. At first blush, it looks like Neutrons are going to be objectively better in almost every case except against stuff like Unbidden because the base damage plus damage bonuses against armor and hull should overcome the below-average damage against shields. I haven't done the math to solve the break-even point, but maybe someone else can show me numbers why I'm off base here? Neutron launchers are pretty much always the better option. No more than one kinetic artillery at the most, but spinal mounts probably reduces it to none.
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Jun 14, 2021 16:23
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Warmachine posted:I've been having a hard time squaring the power disparity between Kinetic Artillery and Neutron Launchers. At first blush, it looks like Neutrons are going to be objectively better in almost every case except against stuff like Unbidden because the base damage plus damage bonuses against armor and hull should overcome the below-average damage against shields. I haven't done the math to solve the break-even point, but maybe someone else can show me numbers why I'm off base here? They're not competing with neutron launchers, they're competing with other L slot kinetics. Splicer fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Jun 14, 2021 |
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Jun 14, 2021 16:27
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Yami Fenrir posted:Except most of that comes from the planets, not the trade modules themselves. And requires Pops to be working on trade not more valuable things past the... what, 12 trade the Offworld Company provides? And, as said, spawn pirates. Honestly, I like both collecting trade and pirates. Pirates and trade could use some slight touches, though. I'd like to see some pool we could put patrol ships in, for example. Abstract solutions for abstract threats. Let's face it, having real ships fight imaginary pirates only for real pirates to spawn later anyway is a bit silly. And solar panels should be available for organics. People like purifiers probably are less inclined to trade anyway, the idea of forcing organics to not use solar panels at gun point is fairly ludicrous, imho.
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Jun 14, 2021 17:49
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