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Boot and Rally posted:Maybe I'm not supposed to worry about it at all and let my resource production be inefficient? I haven’t worried about it once in 20ish hours and everything’s been just fine.
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Dec 9, 2018 19:44
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ZypherIM posted:You don't worry about it. You should only have a couple open job slots at a time anyways, so the 'inefficient' production should be very minimal. Like you build a farming district, that opens 2 farming jobs. If you have a poo poo-ton of miners you might have one or even two move over to try to balance out the production a bit, but otherwise those jobs will fill as your dudes grow. Thanks, that makes sense. Now I have to check my planets more than before which seems antithetical to the stated goal of making it less micromanage-y. Maybe I just never played the game right.
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Dec 9, 2018 19:49
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Boot and Rally posted:Thanks, that makes sense. Now I have to check my planets more than before which seems antithetical to the stated goal of making it less micromanage-y. Maybe I just never played the game right. The goal wasn't "less micromanagement", it was "upgrading buildings is a non-choice and a pointless exercise in clicking yellow arrows; let's fix that."
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Dec 9, 2018 19:50
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All my preferred mods are updated now except for extragalactic clusters. They are: Beautiful Universe, for a more varied galaxy. Diverse room (also updated with a bunch of corp/nobility/high society rooms) because picking between like 200 rooms or something adds something to my custom species. Flat nameplates, though I have to check if the vanilla nameplates actually look better now. Light borders, because those empire borders are too thicc. Sci-Fi loading screens, cause there's so god drat many and a lot of them are really pretty. And Smaller names on map because the names on the map are too big. All is not good, but a lot is.
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Dec 9, 2018 19:50
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I think the new systems are pretty fun, and overall the patch is a huge improvement on the game. There is some tweaking needed to be sure, but a lot of the issues will be simply a matter of playing with numbers now that the framework is there. The AI issues are frustrating. Perhaps they just need to do Wiz-redux with Gladius?
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Dec 9, 2018 19:53
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ZypherIM posted:They should have tomb world preference I think though? That gives them 60% on every planet, which means you can use them to snap up a lot of planets for a not terrible penalty. And eventually gene modding should let you fix them right up. Yeah, they're Tomb World Psionics, but I'm not sure if that's enough early game to get over being repugnant, deviant, fleeting, slow breeders, especially since I already have migration treaties with all three climate types. I suspect that I'll be a lot happier with them once I can fix part of that mess, though.
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Dec 9, 2018 19:54
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Boot and Rally posted:Thanks, that makes sense. Now I have to check my planets more than before which seems antithetical to the stated goal of making it less micromanage-y. Maybe I just never played the game right. Use the outliner. If you see a red suitcase, it's time to build. Otherwise, let them be.
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Dec 9, 2018 19:58
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Autonomous Monster posted:Use the outliner. If you see a red suitcase, it's time to build. Otherwise, let them be. Also I have to learn to stop worrying and love the empty building slot icon
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Dec 9, 2018 20:00
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Mayor Dave posted:Also I have to learn to stop worrying and love the empty building slot icon There’s a reason that one is NOT a red icon 
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Dec 9, 2018 20:01
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:It seems like for Machine Empires the appropriate start for new colonies is to transfer four pops immediately and build a robot factory ASAP. Yeah that's the first good stopping point. The next one that I also find pretty valuable is getting the colony to 10 dudes because that lets you upgrade the colony building and gives you an extra replicator job, just like the factory. I find that adding a unity building helps too since you'll typically have the 4th slot. So starter machine empire planets are start with 1 pop (boo talent), transfer 4 from nearby planets, build robot factory, when that completes transfer 5 more, upgrade colony building, add enough housing to settle at 16 or 18 (depending on how many upgrades the unity monument has) and then transfer pops to wherever needed. So yeah my robot assembly planets typically have 15-18 pops and I try to minimize the number of districts I build for them.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:04
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Strobe posted:The goal wasn't "less micromanagement", it was "upgrading buildings is a non-choice and a pointless exercise in clicking yellow arrows; let's fix that." This. I see a million posts about how this was supposed to reduce micro, but it wasn’t: the goal was to make the choices meaningful.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:04
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Libluini posted:My personal list of bugs/balance oddities:
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Dec 9, 2018 20:05
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Strobe posted:The goal wasn't "less micromanagement", it was "upgrading buildings is a non-choice and a pointless exercise in clicking yellow arrows; let's fix that." The Dev Diary said otherwise, which is why I bring it up.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:08
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Maybe they can work on an expansion where the design goal is "This is a game about conquering space not shuffling people from one planet to another"
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Dec 9, 2018 20:10
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yeah there's a lot more micromanagement but the micro is actually managing something instead of Insert Minerals Receive Power Plant Two
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Dec 9, 2018 20:10
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I feel like I need to put it out there that expansion is hands-down the best starting tree currently. You're able to immediately start colonizing (no upkeep on building colonies), you get reduced starbase influence cost, you'll be able to get the bonus settler before your first colony finishes, and it also has pop growth and admin cap. Finally reduced starbase upkeep and an extra district per planet will come in big late game. None of the other trees come close. Your second tree is where it gets a lot more interesting, as all of them are useful in different setups. Also robot empires need a pass, as acknowledge by the devs already (they hit they a bit too hard right before release). I've noticed that the majority of people in here that really seem rubbed the wrong way are playing machine empires, maybe mess around with some other setups and see if the annoying bits for you are the update in general or just some specific robot parts.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:13
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I think micromanagement varies greatly based on how you play the game. If you try to specialize all your worlds, shuffle jobs around to maximize productivity (this world already has 5 extra amenities! shuffle two clerks into miners!), and resettle pops to their optimum positions, then yeah, you're going to spend half the game paused poking around in menus. OTOH, you can also just watch the outliner for red unemployment icons and then pop down a mine/farm/alloy foundry based on what number in the top bar is the smallest and keep going, and you'll be maybe 10% less efficient than doing everything perfectly.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:13
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:yeah there's a lot more micromanagement but the micro is actually managing something instead of Insert Minerals Receive Power Plant Two Is it really? Shuffling jobs around and delaying upgrades waiting for pops doesn't exactly feel "meaningful." It doesn't impart some excellent management skills that clicking on upgrade buildings didn't. It's the exact same process just more drawn out. This type of micro isn't more "rewarding", not when you realistically have to do it for in-game years to every planet to not have them run significantly under their total potential. Sure, you can ignore it and it works fine, but you could also mostly ignore sector run tile management. I'm not arguing the change wasn't a step in the right direction, just that it still needs a lot of work to not feeling like meaningless micromanagement, especially as it currently feels like far more of that vs 2.1 min/maxing.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:13
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i established contact with a criminal megacorp empire halfway across the galaxy, and they instantly spawned a branch office on my homeworld despite me closing borders the second i encountered them. i can't declare war on them to remove it, as there are 3 other hostile nations with closed borders in the way. is there any way to remove the branch office?
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Dec 9, 2018 20:15
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Mazz posted:Is it really? Shuffling jobs around and delaying upgrades waiting for pops doesn't exactly feel "meaningful." It doesn't impart some excellent management skills that clicking on upgrade buildings didn't. It's the exact same process just more drawn out. This type of micro isn't more "rewarding", not when you realistically have to do it for in-game years to every planet to not have them run significantly under their total potential. Tbh I think it does. Most empires quickly become a sprawling set of interdependencies and judging your priorities and opportunity costs is a lot more interesting at the moment.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:15
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I've been wondering about how people are having issues with being gated by rare resources since I've been able to buy everything I need, and then I saw how much income I'm getting from trade value and branch offices, even with my trade policy being set to consumer benefits. Those monthly trades are for motes because god drat even with 700 alloy production fighting the contingency is a slog.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:16
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Strudel Man posted:Are you using a portrait from a species class added by a mod, perchance? Because I found out that new species classes don't actually need to eat food unless you add them to a scripted trigger that defines them as biological pops. Yeah, we're already went through this earlier in the thread, turns out that's correct: If you use custom portraits, your empire won't need to eat. And according to the bug report I've read on the Paradox-forum, apparently the other pop upkeep is missing, as well. It's just not as easy to pick up because other stuff has also upkeep-sources drawing from your income. Food only has pops, so it's super obvious if the upkeep is missing.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:16
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Mazz posted:Is it really? Shuffling jobs around and delaying upgrades waiting for pops doesn't exactly feel "meaningful." It doesn't impart some excellent management skills that clicking on upgrade buildings didn't. It's the exact same process just more drawn out. the numbers need tweaking, absolutely. the underlying system, however, makes it so you actually have to engage with a somewhat complex economic balancing act to keep the space empire running. the game's weakest point has always been the midgame, and managing the transition of your empire from a couple of isolated worlds to actual specialized facilities gives you something to do from ~2280->2350 beyond watching your science ships get anomalies you'll never be able to use.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:17
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Captain Oblivious posted:Tbh I think it does. Most empires quickly become a sprawling set of interdependencies and judging your priorities and opportunity costs is a lot more interesting at the moment. Is it going to stay that way in game 5 or 10? That's the part I feel is going to be a problem, this extra micromanagement works because the novelty. Moving pops around costantly is already grating people pretty hard and we aren't out of the first week here. Like I said, before this gets twisted out of proportion I think the underlying systems changes in 2.2 are good, they just need a good amount more work. Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:the numbers need tweaking, absolutely. the underlying system, however, makes it so you actually have to engage with a somewhat complex economic balancing act to keep the space empire running. the game's weakest point has always been the midgame, and managing the transition of your empire from a couple of isolated worlds to actual specialized facilities gives you something to do from ~2280->2350 beyond watching your science ships get anomalies you'll never be able to use. I mostly agree with this. I'm just vocal in that I don't think we're at the final point yet, which I think is worth speaking up about. My last robot game had a lot more tedious micro then I'm really happy with, especially when min/maxing jobs vs pops at the end of the planet development cycle. Most of that was/is fixable, which is my goal. Mazz fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Dec 9, 2018 |
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Dec 9, 2018 20:19
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Libluini posted:Yeah, we're already went through this earlier in the thread, turns out that's correct: If you use custom portraits, your empire won't need to eat. And according to the bug report I've read on the Paradox-forum, apparently the other pop upkeep is missing, as well. It's just not as easy to pick up because other stuff has also upkeep-sources drawing from your income. Food only has pops, so it's super obvious if the upkeep is missing. Ah, must have missed that.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:19
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If there was a way to set job priority on a scale of like 1-5 within a given strata I think that'd solve most of my incessant pop moving, honestly.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:22
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Bremen posted:I think micromanagement varies greatly based on how you play the game. If you try to specialize all your worlds, shuffle jobs around to maximize productivity (this world already has 5 extra amenities! shuffle two clerks into miners!), and resettle pops to their optimum positions, then yeah, you're going to spend half the game paused poking around in menus. OTOH, you can also just watch the outliner for red unemployment icons and then pop down a mine/farm/alloy foundry based on what number in the top bar is the smallest and keep going, and you'll be maybe 10% less efficient than doing everything perfectly. Yeah the latter is basically all I'm doing, since that's all assume there will be time for in multiplayer. It's not too bad, but it's still more mental load than 2.1 was, just because you're never 'done' with a planet, even the very developed ones still need watching. Having upgrades be more than just clicking a yellow triangle to get more stuff was a non-choice, but at least you could trust the sector AI to do it well.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:22
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Yeah I havent had a moment's rest in midgame, always something to do. Also people really shouldnt be juggling jobs around, if you have to that means you build your infrastructure too much in advance and have too many unfulfilled jobs. Just like the real world if there's a shitload of high paying quality jobs you're going to have a hard time finding people for the menial boring low paying jobs.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:23
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Mazz posted:Is it really? Shuffling jobs around and delaying upgrades waiting for pops doesn't exactly feel "meaningful." It doesn't impart some excellent management skills that clicking on upgrade buildings didn't. It's the exact same process just more drawn out. This type of micro isn't more "rewarding", not when you realistically have to do it for in-game years to every planet to not have them run significantly under their total potential. Sure, you can ignore it and it works fine, but you could also mostly ignore sector run tile management. This is pretty disengenuous complaining because 'always click yellow arrows when they appear' has become 'balance and stagger your buildings nased on your growth rste and current galaxy wide events like wars etc.'
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Dec 9, 2018 20:24
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Kenlon posted:I've been watching the complaints about the new economy with bemusement. It's pretty much a textbook simulation of an industrializing economy, just in space. Yeah, I've been playing all weekend, and this realization is what made the new economy really click for me. I was still in the habit of trying to build everything I could as soon as I could, but now I'm focusing on food and mineral production, with an alloy foundry here and there, and highly specializing my planets along a rural/urban divide. By selling the food and minerals I can keep up with my consumer goods production and free up those manufacturing slots for labs or housing (great for getting a few amenities with no pop/consumer goods requirement) to balance things out and keep up on everything until, as you say, I'm big enough to really industrialize.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:25
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Captain Monkey posted:This is pretty disengenuous complaining because 'always click yellow arrows when they appear' has become 'balance and stagger your buildings nased on your growth rste and current galaxy wide events like wars etc.' Waiting till the counter says 5 before clicking the arrow vs immediately clicking the arrow is generally the result of this micro. I don't think it's very disengenuous. It's slower paced and reliant on more systems, but there's really not a ton of extra thought involved. Minerals = OK, Pop = OK > click arrow. The fact that a bunch of UI poo poo gets in the way of this is really the part that makes it seem harder than it is. An improvement over the mindlessness of tiles, sure, but still room for more improvement. Mazz fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Dec 9, 2018 |
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Dec 9, 2018 20:26
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Anyone else getting completely hosed by Marauders? I've lost two games now to never meeting them then having a rival have them raid me, they hit my homeworld/capital, then my economy crashes.Boot and Rally posted:The Dev Diary said otherwise, which is why I bring it up.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:29
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Mazz posted:Is it going to stay that way in game 5 or 10? That's the part I feel is going to be a problem, this extra micromanagement works because the novelty. Moving pops around costantly is already grating people pretty hard and we aren't out of the first week here. Yeah I agree with this. In 2.2 they added a bunch of meaningful decisions. Great! They also added even more pop micro. Yuck. So, I think it would make sense to keep everything that involves meaningful decisions. Which buildings to build, which districts, which jobs to prioritize, what planets will be used for, how you develop them. That's good stuff and I'd like to do that all game. Having to reassign pops to planets is awful. There just needs to be an easier way to tell the game how you want your empire to be distributed, instead of needing to manually do it all yourself. What I suggested was some kind of toggle that says "Send any unemployed pops to this planet [auto move]" or some nonsense, and alternately, from the resettle screen, some option that says "Put all unemployed pops on this planet" if Paradox doesn't want it to be an automated thing. Once that's taken care of, there should be more explicit ways to manage your slots / priorities. I think a good system to look at is Civ 5. They already copied the civics  they may as well copy the city priority function. That's the one where you tell the city pop allocataion AI whether you want it to focus on Food or Production or Research or Specialists or whatever and it will figure out a decent pop distribution to get there.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:32
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Jabarto posted:Yeah, I've been playing all weekend, and this realization is what made the new economy really click for me. I was still in the habit of trying to build everything I could as soon as I could, but now I'm focusing on food and mineral production, with an alloy foundry here and there, and highly specializing my planets along a rural/urban divide. By selling the food and minerals I can keep up with my consumer goods production and free up those manufacturing slots for labs or housing (great for getting a few amenities with no pop/consumer goods requirement) to balance things out and keep up on everything until, as you say, I'm big enough to really industrialize. Yeah, you’re saying it way better than I would have today. I grumbled about alloys only until I started buying them when I need them to expand.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:33
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Ham Sandwiches posted:Yeah I agree with this. In 2.2 they added a bunch of meaningful decisions. Great! They also added even more pop micro. Yuck. So, I think it would make sense to keep everything that involves meaningful decisions. Which buildings to build, which districts, which jobs to prioritize, what planets will be used for, how you develop them. That's good stuff and I'd like to do that all game. Exactly this type of idea. Keep all the good, interesting parts like production line development, stop making me balance pops by hand across every planet for 50 years or having the UI hide this meat+potatoes stuff in bad ways.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:35
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turn off the TV posted:I've been wondering about how people are having issues with being gated by rare resources since I've been able to buy everything I need, and then I saw how much income I'm getting from trade value and branch offices, even with my trade policy being set to consumer benefits. Machines and hives don't get that and solar panels give 3 energy each, seemingly not upgradable. Hives can feed off their rampant growth for a time, but are always seeking energy. Machines seem to have a similar issue, only worse since their pops also eat energy. So normal empires are gods of wealth, hives are growth-happy.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:36
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Anyone else getting completely hosed by Marauders? I've lost two games now to never meeting them then having a rival have them raid me, they hit my homeworld/capital, then my economy crashes. They leave when your planet hits about 20% devastation so you should be able to bounce back pretty quickly. Bloodly posted:Machines and hives don't get that and solar panels give 3 energy each, seemingly not upgradable. Hives can feed off their rampant growth for a time, but are always seeking energy. Machines seem to have a similar issue, only worse since their pops also eat energy. Unfortunately the entire economy seems to have been balanced around the assumption that you can buy shitloads of strategic resources whenever you want, so uh turn off the TV fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Dec 9, 2018 |
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Dec 9, 2018 20:37
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Bloodly posted:Machines and hives don't get that and solar panels give 3 energy each, seemingly not upgradable. Hives can feed off their rampant growth for a time, but are always seeking energy. Machines seem to have a similar issue, only worse since their pops also eat energy. Hives get some trippy growth rate modifiers though. They essentially start with gene clinics, and not having to produce commodities saves a lot of jobs (or a big cut of that trade pie). Also their higher food growth rate option is +50% food for +33% growth instead of +25% for +10%. Once you hit hive/machine worlds you should be able to fix any raw resource problem you have. To the guy using syncreatic evolution earlier, your grunt race *is* able to be clerks. That means, if worse comes to worse, you can build commercial buildings which poo poo out 5 clerk jobs, which generate ammenities and trade value.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:46
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turn off the TV posted:They leave when your planet hits about 20% devastation so you should be able to bounce back pretty quickly. Machines can still grow food. Grow it and sell it or throw it in the bioreactor building.
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Dec 9, 2018 20:48
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Yeah having played 2 machine empires to the end now their economy is functional early but needs some tuning to not feel overly restrictive on what you can/can't build. Once you hit machine worlds and you can play the market for the energy to convert everything it snowballs hard because all districts are unlocked from their specific category and you can hyper-specialize or just massively increase that planets output of energy/minerals. It probably shouldn't come that late but they do have that light at the end of the tunnel. Still think a mines/power plant jobs building for "rural" worlds like already exists for farms would be a good addition to further this but I've said that enough. EDIT: Probably just going to add them myself since the farm template is right there. Mazz fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Dec 9, 2018 |
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Dec 9, 2018 20:49
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