Stellaris: a second Astral Planes has hit the game

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Stellaris: a second Astral Planes has hit the game

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

Strudel Man posted:

Wouldn't it also happen from internal migration if you conquer any high-population alien planets, but give them full citizenship?

Hell, even in the situation you describe - you think of Star Trek, where the Federation is certainly xenophilic, full citizenship to aliens, allows migration, whatever. But Earth in that is still pretty much entirely human, not evenly divided between every species they're friendly with.

It's almost certainly not going to be evenly divided unless you play a 500-year campaign or something. It is going to be pretty diverse though, and that's the goal. Bear in mind Habitability plays in here majorly as well, so you wouldn't end up with an even distribution of species unless all your planets had equal habitability for all species.

# ¿ Aug 23, 2018 20:56

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# ¿ Apr 24, 2024 08:01

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

OwlFancier posted:

Yeah, this.

It's just weird that planets would automatically trend towards equal distributions of species... Like I wouldn't expect that behaviour to just happen, I would really expect for home planets to be majority dominated by the species whose homeworld it is...

If you deliberally set up the planet to house lots of different alien species by building xenophile buildings or whatever that encourage it to become a multicultural hub or something then sure, but just "you got one pop of blorg on the planet so now they're slowly going to displace half the population" seems very strange. And possibly irritating given that different species confer quite different mechanical effects in Stellaris.

You can have equal species rights but still think that the swole lizard dudes who love deserts should all live on the desert planet covered in mines because that's what they're good at.

If you don't want the swole lizards moving to your homeworld, then don't give them full citizenship and unrestricted migration rights. You're not exactly helpless in this situation.

# ¿ Aug 23, 2018 20:59

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

Splicer posted:

OK before I make any assumptions, Wiz, if my empire is 20% blog and 80% human will the empire trend toward 50/50 or will I end up with about 40% of my planets being 50/50 and the rest pretty much full of humans?

Assuming you don't have enough habitability tech to put them on entirely equal footing, you'd probably end up with majority-human homeworlds, majority-human continental worlds, majority-blorg tropical worlds and slightly majority other worlds (humans are Adaptive). Either way demographics shifts take time so it's not like Earth would go 50/50 Blorg overnight.

Tell you guys what, I'll give species higher priority weight on their homeworld. It makes sense anyway since you get a habitability bonus there.

# ¿ Aug 23, 2018 21:02

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

OwlFancier posted:

I mean, can I give them full citizenship and migration rights between desert planets with lots of mines on them?

I guess I'm getting at in a game where different parts of the population are mechanically different it seems kind of odd for them to migrate to places they can't live and can't work effectively. There's not really much reason for any lizard dudes to go and live on an arctic homeworld even if they're more than welcome there, and it kind of sounds like not only would they move there but they'd also be disproportionately inclined to reproduce there because they're a minority population?? Would that not leave me with a bunch of unhappy lizards hitting power plants with pickaxes?

As I have said multiple times, Habitability has a huge effect on which species grows on a planet. Your swole lizards would be a tiny minority on the Arctic planet at most.

# ¿ Aug 23, 2018 21:04

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

OwlFancier posted:

Ok, so population parity would mostly occur on habitats and other ideal habitability locations?

Yes.

# ¿ Aug 23, 2018 21:05

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

OwlFancier posted:

Ah ok that makes more sense then and that seems fine.

Presumably it would also be affected by adaptability, meaning you would notice some species showing up everywhere? While endemic species would be much scarcer outside of their ideal conditions?

Correct. Precisely how much habitability affects migration, and the threshold at which Pops will even consider migrating there unless desperate, are things that are still being worked out. I think you guys might want to step back a little and see how the system actually works out before you spend twenty pages complaining about issues that might not even be relevant.

# ¿ Aug 23, 2018 21:10

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

imweasel09 posted:

I'm probably just going to keep playing machines and not worry about these silly thing likes "migration" or "flesh" and just have perfect robots for every situation. Wait, how do rogue servitors work with this though? If you conquer a planet does it just wipe out all the buildings like it does now? Is being a bio trophy a higher or lower strata than the others? Are my bio trophies going to try to migrate to the mining planet if it's their habitat type even though they do nothing but sit in their glass bubbles?

No buildings are demolished, details will be in part 4 of this dev diary series.

# ¿ Aug 23, 2018 21:19

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

Aethernet posted:

Can you still manually move pops to worlds, and forbid migration? Because that seems like it'd solve all the problems people have. If authoritarians can move all their lizards to Space Mexico and build a wall, they don't need to worry about whether they're sending their best elsewhere.

Resettlement is still a thing, yes. It's even easier to do than before because you don't have to tile-swap.

# ¿ Aug 23, 2018 21:22

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

SirTagz posted:

For me something that stood out was Wiz's comment that assembled pops do not migrate as they do not want to implement two pools for planets. Doesn't this mean that robots will never be completely equal with biological species who have the choise of emigrating to another place if they dont like the current location. They would be locked to where they are somewhy. How did you understand that part?

I'd like to let free robots migrate but it would be pretty messy in terms of how the system works, so at least for now I'm probably just going to leave this as is. Might try and improve on it later.

# ¿ Aug 23, 2018 21:30

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

Yes, wanting Xenophile empires to be able to have diverse core worlds is literally white supremacism. You have it absolutely down pat.

I guess it's time to unsubscribe from this thread for a while again.

# ¿ Aug 23, 2018 23:06

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

The amount of people a pop represents is intentionally left up to interpretation. There is never going to be an official number of any kind.

# ¿ Aug 28, 2018 12:00

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

Nessus posted:

I think the main root of our theological argument here is whether a Pop represents a FIXED number of undefined people or not.

Here's a hypothetical: Could a species that has vanished in the sense of having zero Pops reappear if the conditions were right?

As I view it, no, a pop is not a fixed number, and yes, zero pops probably doesn't mean 100% extinct.

# ¿ Aug 28, 2018 12:17

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

Splicer posted:

I think the question was is a pop of blorg on planet A about the same number of blorg as a pop of blorg on planet B.

As I see it? Probably not. There really isn't a definitive answer either way though.

# ¿ Aug 28, 2018 12:52

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

GunnerJ posted:

So given that gestalt empires have their own special districts, what happens when another type of empire takes a planet? What does a hive mind do with nexus districts, or a normal empire with hive districts? Or the reverse as well.

A certain % of districts/buildings are converted to your type, others are destroyed. There will probably be some empires who are better at retrofitting planets than others.

# ¿ Sep 6, 2018 12:48

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

Bremen posted:

Given how the bonuses from buildings work, 1 size 20 planet looks like it will remain superior to 2 size 10 planets. But not at the current "don't even bother colonizing small planets" level.

For urban worlds, yes. For resource exploitation worlds there's very little difference, but you probably want to use larger worlds as your production centers.

# ¿ Sep 6, 2018 17:35

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

Aethernet posted:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1506081421

Wiz, this chap's borders are way better than yours.

Nah.

# ¿ Sep 9, 2018 16:59

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

The whole servitors 'stacking' organics is gone in Le Guin anyway, since we don't have to deal with the tile system limitations.

Servitors are supposed to be morally ambiguous, and how benevolent they are is really up to how you want to play your empire. There is no one right answer there.

# ¿ Sep 12, 2018 08:16

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

Ice Fist posted:

So... piracy is now just abstract?

I mean, I like that it directly affects trade by taking a percentage from output, but I think I'd miss the actual attacks on infrastructure.

You can still get pirate fleets under certain circumstances. More on this tomorrow.

# ¿ Sep 26, 2018 16:40

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

IAmTheRad posted:

One problem I have is I hear about these overhauls coming, and not want to get into the game because the overhauls are right around the corner.

Why do you do this to me, Wiz?

Mostly just to see you suffer, tbh.

# ¿ Sep 27, 2018 08:15

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

tithin posted:

I play one game a few days after release of a new patch (to give mods time to update) and then start one on the ramp up to a new patch release.

Wiz, I've asked this before but don't think I ever got an answer - I've had a few games since 2.1 launched where star systems don't have a central star, and I'm wondering if this is mod fuckery, or if this is part of the base game now?

Kinda makes making nice neat territories a pain in the rear end.

Mods, almost certainly.

# ¿ Sep 27, 2018 10:38

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

Aethernet posted:

Trade proposals sound excellent, but allocating a fleet to every trade route to minimise piracy sounds a bit faffy and means the planner will be full of fleets, unless it's all abstracted.

You won't have to patrol every trade route unless you fail entirely at protecting them with starbases.

# ¿ Sep 27, 2018 15:29

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

Aethernet posted:

Ah, so it's more for undeveloped starbases on the frontier? Very cool!

That, or very high value trade routes where starbase protection is inadequate

# ¿ Sep 27, 2018 15:40

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

We have absolutely no plans of adding a non-EC money resource. It could be easily modded in after 2.2 though.

# ¿ Sep 28, 2018 09:00

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

NoNotTheMindProbe posted:

I wonder how fungible the trade value resource is. Could you build a space mall that hires pops to convert it to consumer goods, or a black market that makes a trickle of strategic resources for example.

It's not really a resource, so it can't be converted into other things except through trade routes. You could have a building that gives you X consumer goods per Y collected TV though.

# ¿ Sep 28, 2018 09:34

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

Chalks posted:

Would you consider a "trade route" style system for robot empires in the form of some sort of communications backbone? I love the sound of the new trade system and also love playing robots, it would really suck to lose out on the trade mechanics for purely flavour reasons.

It'd probably be fine to literally swap the names from trade network to communications network - but it'd also be awesome to have it provide science boosts instead of energy, it'd make for some really interesting gameplay variety.

We're trying to move away from gestalts just having reskinned versions of everyone else's mechanics. We're going to focus more on giving them their own unique mechanics instead.

# ¿ Sep 28, 2018 12:38

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

binge crotching posted:

That seems like a huge oversight.

Oversight sure but let's be honest, how often do you find a ringworld before even a single ruins anomaly?

# ¿ Oct 9, 2018 08:20

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

OwlFancier posted:

That's a much better pick for an ascension perk, because yeah +20% growth is a tradition point, not a perk.

As I said on the stream, the effect was placeholder until the proper functionality could be implemented.

# ¿ Oct 19, 2018 11:06

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

Aethernet posted:

That's literally what it does though. Can't wait to see how the portraits handle it!

The portraits will not handle it. There's absolutely no way we will ever have the time and resources to implement crossbreeds between every portrait.

# ¿ Oct 19, 2018 12:32

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

Baronjutter posted:

I'll again be the fun-hater who thinks the whole thing is very silly. Inter-species reproduction is a trope from trek and poo poo where everyone's just a human with different bumps and a very not subtle stand-in for the real world concept of race. But it feels weird as hell trying to do it in stellaris where aliens are so fundamentally different biologically. It's just more species page clutter. more same-portraits to mouse over and wait for the tooltip to tell you which of your 10 sub-species-mixes it is.

If they had some cool portrait-morphing technology, even if it didn't work 100% right, I'd be down with it. Even if they just had a weird filter for each species mix so you'd get sort of lumpy-fungusy humans or scaley humans or feathery humans that would be cool. If you're going to make a system where you can make half human half blorgs but they look exactly the same, why bother?

Hell, just do a diagonal split screen of the two mixed portraits so at least they're visually recognizable within the game.

You're right, we should stick to 100% realistic things like space dragons.

# ¿ Oct 19, 2018 19:03

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

Baronjutter posted:

I'm really looking forward to what modders can do with these new mechanics. Would love to see actual religions modeled more in the game with spiritualist empires getting their own corporate-like mechanic for spreading their specific religion to planets, which would work a bit like corporate offices but with religious themes and not overlapping entirely with corporations.

Would be cool to see an ethos/ideology based expansion with more diplomacy, named/specific religions and mechanics around their spread and conflict. Have crusade CB's, peaceful ways to spread religions, multi-religion empires being possible with them working like factions or something. For non-religious content could have the ability to push your ideology on your subjects and/or pay to influence the ideology of other nations via propaganda and diplomatic pressures. Stage coups, support revolutions, foreign support of factions, along with tools to better resist or ban foreign influence.

Opening your borders to trade could be profitable, but it also opens your borders to potentially dangerous ideas like foreign religions and dangerous ideas like emancipation of slaves. A spiritualist empire is probably going to slowly exert cultural pressure on its tiny vassal to push its government and population spiritualist. Fun stuff like that. Painting the map your colour can be fun, but it's also fun to paint the map in your corporation, religion, ideology.

Sir, this is a Space McDonalds drive-through.

# ¿ Oct 24, 2018 18:48

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

Chalks posted:

This doesn't seem like much of an issue since the main reason to have a snaking empire is during early game expansion. At that point, empire size isn't a big deal anyway.

That's not really accurate with the new empire size mechanics.

# ¿ Oct 26, 2018 15:44

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

Aethernet posted:

Gosh. Federations will now be basically super-vassals for most players. No wonder they needed to add some maintenance to them.

The Federation still gets to vote on things. This is just about who controls the Federation fleet.

# ¿ Oct 29, 2018 17:07

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

Demiurge4 posted:

Feel like too much poo poo is gated behind ascension perks now. Gaia worlds, habitats, mega structures and now city worlds all that their own ascension perk.

Just make them all available with tech and use the perks to improve them further.

Nah. Choices are good.

# ¿ Nov 1, 2018 17:17

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

Psychotic Weasel posted:

Slaves are already in the game thought - as is eating them, robbing them of their intelligence, driving them from their homes or just slaughtering them wholesale. But selling pops is where we draw the line...?

Yeah, this is a pretty bizarre thing to get upset about if everything that's currently in the game is a-OK by you.

# ¿ Nov 15, 2018 13:53

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

Beer4TheBeerGod posted:

Can Rogue Servitors buy slaves?

Everyone but Exterminators, Purifiers and Devouring Swarms can.

# ¿ Nov 15, 2018 14:34

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

binge crotching posted:

I kind of feel like the swarm should be able to buy food, but maybe only from xenophobic or fanatic xenophobe empires? I don't think every empire would be willing to sell slaves knowing they would be the equivalent of soylent green, but fanatic xenophobes who already consider other species to be no better than pond scum might?

It's more from a 'a swarm wouldn't even bother with/understand the diplomatic and economic infrastructure needed to engage in pop trade' perspective.

# ¿ Nov 15, 2018 19:05

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

Thyrork posted:

I hope in LeGuin that as a machine hive mind i can convert robots and droids into true drones under my control.

Due to the tweaks to robots in terms of traits/species, integrating them as a machine empire works much better now.

# ¿ Nov 20, 2018 16:50

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

Splicer posted:

On the subject of robots, do regular empire non-sentient pops count as full pops for infrastructure etc?

For building slots? Yes.

# ¿ Nov 20, 2018 16:55

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

Baronjutter posted:

Has it been confirmed one way or another if we have to take these sort of social/governmental traits at creation or if we can switch to them later? It would be cool to start out as some realistic near-future earth but then "work up" to shared burden or other strata-effecting society picks.

Shared Burden and other government-changing civics that don't radically alter gameplay mechanics can be added and removed.

# ¿ Dec 1, 2018 20:45

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# ¿ Apr 24, 2024 08:01

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

Baronjutter posted:

Yep, expand the worker class list and the little plus minus buttons on the sides will displace/prioritize workers. I had 4/6 miners but full everything else so I clicked minus on farmers twice, they went straight into the mines.

Yeah, it feels like a personality bug though that a xenophobe could ever be given the federation builder personality? Wiz loves his tsundere though.

Are you sure it was a Xenophobe? I'm looking at the script and they are specifically excluded from being fed builders.

# ¿ Dec 6, 2018 20:56

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