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Xae
Jan 19, 2005



kingcom posted:

lol, the points im making are:
1) Natural Langauge makes it confusing to tell what it applies to
2) Molly is a shady grifter/charlatan but because of his class needing his stats, he's incredibly charismatic and bad at it

Those are the things I'm blaming 5e for, we had this discussion in the 5e thread man, you were there reading it. I mean you want to disagree with me sure thats fine but yeah someone following the design layout of the game for their homebrew and it leading to confusion is something I can point at the game for.


Yeah Molly definitely acts like a Bard more than anything else, he wants to be a sword dude with some magic on it, just spin the college as his unexplained history/power background and you're done.


Oh nice yeah then the archer Blood Hunter is most definitely the way to play it as it removes one of the big downsides to just using your class abilities. So turns out I was misreading the Mutant subclass all along with how much of a bonus they gave and goddamn are those mutagens extremely worthless and highly restricted.

Blaming "natural language" seems kinda dumb when the dude who wrote it is your GM.

Taliesin seems like the guy who should probably just be playing a fighter with a splash of something with a bit more flavor.

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kingcom
Jun 23, 2012



Xae posted:

Blaming "natural language" seems kinda dumb when the dude who wrote it is your GM.

Taliesin seems like the guy who should probably just be playing a fighter with a splash of something with a bit more flavor.

Sorry I'm a bit confused, I was saying that I did not know if you could use ranged weapons with it and someone said that Matt said on twitter you could, so I guess I wasn't the only one who was confused by the natural language stuff.

Anyway look I don't want to turn this into an argue about 5e's qualities so I'll drop that here.



I'm guessing since Gunslinger was the last class as a Fighter Archetype he didn't want to play a hugely similar class again despite it being the kind of role he clicks with. He seems pretty focused on hanging back so far. For those familiar with S1 were the Critical Role fights particularly heavy on moving parts and mechanics beyond just getting the targets hitpoints down? I mean people have been saying that Taliesin is the most experienced but thats pretty hard to gauge depending on how wide a range of game style/systems/GMs hes played with I guess.

kingcom fucked around with this message at Jun 5, 2018 around 03:31

CuwiKhons
Sep 24, 2009

Seven idiots and a bear walk into a dragon's lair.



A lot of fights in Campaign 1 had other stuff going on beyond 'big sack of hit points' but a lot were also just that.

As for Taliesin's experience, he's been playing since high school (he turned 41 this year) and while I certainly dont have any sort of resume for him, I know he's played a ton of World of Darkness, he was in Eric Campbell's Doctor Who RPG, he's been playing D&D with Matt specifically for years before CR was a thing, and he's played with Satine Phoenix's Sirens of the Realns game. And thats just poo poo he's streamed or talked about. Dude has a 20 year history of RPGs. He's the most experienced person at the table along with Matt.

Part of the reason he picked Blood Hunter was because, according to him, he's played every other class in the game at some point. That's not to say he's any sort of mechanical genius though. He regularly forgot abilities he'd been using for 4 years last campaign. He's in it more for the story.

Firstborn
Oct 14, 2012

Hope is a mistake


Gunslinger was also adjusted a few times during the campaign, huh? Percy would roll incredibly well and then say something like, "you're going to nerf me again aren't you Matt?"
It's clear that UA is allowed in his games, so I'm sure Taliesin had options. Matt seemed to be trying to give him a hint with his Vicious Mockery a few times, rolling it and just being like "Nope, he makes it. The DC is ... just 10?" etc.

I think it's kind of neat that he's played both of Matt's homebrew classes, though.

Nehru the Damaja
May 20, 2005



CuwiKhons posted:

Blood Hunter is based on the Witcher, as I understand it.

I mean, it's witchers, spooky undead poo poo, and being a werewolf all crammed into different subclasses of one class, and all the "pop" in the identity is tied to the subclasses. So Blood Hunter itself has zero identity that players can latch on to. It's all a disjoint mess with a hundred billion bells and whistles and limited amounts of actually useful things.

The only thing that could have made it worse is if the blood hunter was the Aasimar and not the barbarian.

Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!

when it comes to tabletop roleplaying games no one has stanima like Taliesin Jaffe

Blockhouse fucked around with this message at Jun 5, 2018 around 05:16

Malpais Legate
Oct 1, 2014



kingcom posted:

So these are all 5e problems causing this. First with the ranged weapon as the preferred combat style, its not actually clear if bows/xbows are actually allowed. The rite description describes thrown weapons as being a valid choice but it's not clear to me if ammunition launched from a weapon works or not. I would hope it would but I genuinely can't tell.

So the other big problem is yeah of course Molly is going to have a garbage Charisma, the Blood Hunter class tells him to order his stats (Str/Dex) -> Wis -> Con. He needs his attack stat for doing his job and wisdom is the key stat for all his class abilities plus since hes likely to get stuck into melee and is burning a lot of health to get his weapons buffed hes also going to need a decent constitution. He simply doesn't have a good stat to put into charisma even if it would fit his character. It's a pretty age old D&D problem that if you want to be a shady grifter, you're better off being a paladin than a rogue.

The first one is a nonissue. Blood Hunter was explicitly designed with a Witcher/Van Hesling crossbow fantasy in mind.

The second is definitely symptomatic of 5e, yeah, but Taliesin is pretty familiar with the system. He should be well aware that choosing the Tiefling variant that revolves around Charisma antics with a class that does not, while leaning into said Charisma antics, was a bad plan.

I just don't get it. Maybe I'll eat my words and it was all ~roleplaying~ but cool.

Nehru the Damaja
May 20, 2005



I realize that the only things I've really had to say being critical maybe made me sound more like some raging dissatisfied nerd. So I wanted to say something positive, and that is that Caleb inspired me to make a wizard who uses a component pouch as well and that little change to pouch from focus has made magic a billion times more interesting. Narrating the way the components work in their little totemic fashion is super neat. Like describing how you make a little improvised marionette rig that your Unseen Servant appears on.

kingcom
Jun 23, 2012



Malpais Legate posted:

The first one is a nonissue. Blood Hunter was explicitly designed with a Witcher/Van Hesling crossbow fantasy in mind.

The second is definitely symptomatic of 5e, yeah, but Taliesin is pretty familiar with the system. He should be well aware that choosing the Tiefling variant that revolves around Charisma antics with a class that does not, while leaning into said Charisma antics, was a bad plan.

I just don't get it. Maybe I'll eat my words and it was all ~roleplaying~ but cool.

Yeah thanks for the explanations good to know thats probably played enough that he should know about the moving parts of a game system. I find it really annoying as well to be honest because I just dont have a character or mechanic to hook into with Molly so I kinda glaze over his stuff more as opposed to Caleb being genuinely entertaining at making sure his mechanics have an strong flavour to it all.

Firstborn
Oct 14, 2012

Hope is a mistake


Nehru the Damaja posted:

I realize that the only things I've really had to say being critical maybe made me sound more like some raging dissatisfied nerd. So I wanted to say something positive, and that is that Caleb inspired me to make a wizard who uses a component pouch as well and that little change to pouch from focus has made magic a billion times more interesting. Narrating the way the components work in their little totemic fashion is super neat. Like describing how you make a little improvised marionette rig that your Unseen Servant appears on.

I've not played a 5E wizard yet, but Caleb is inspiring. I like the idea of a homeless Wizard starting with awful spells and no components. That's just me trying to kneecap myself for roleplay, though. I'm sure everyone would get mad when I can't cast spells with a material component.

Firstborn
Oct 14, 2012

Hope is a mistake


If you miss Grog, start watching at 8:00
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/268955843

dedian
Sep 2, 2011


Firstborn posted:

If you miss Grog, start watching at 8:00
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/268955843

Here's a link with the timecode (unless you meant 8 minutes into the vod )
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/268955843?t=08h30m42s

Firstborn
Oct 14, 2012

Hope is a mistake


Oh, sorry! No, I meant 8 hours. Oof.


\/\/\/ Luckily, it's the same video

Firstborn fucked around with this message at Jun 5, 2018 around 17:32

Sion
Oct 16, 2004

"I'm the boss of space. That's plenty."


Firstborn posted:

If you miss Grog, start watching at 8:00
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/268955843

THat's great and all but The Big Show as a 14 foot tall thief is the best

OmniBeer
Jun 5, 2011

This is no time to
remain stagnant!

Firstborn posted:

If you miss Grog, start watching at 8:00
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/268955843

I don't have the timestamp for it, but Debrah Ann Woll's game was a lot of fun too- it had Matt and Marisha as players.

Nehru the Damaja
May 20, 2005



Firstborn posted:

I've not played a 5E wizard yet, but Caleb is inspiring. I like the idea of a homeless Wizard starting with awful spells and no components. That's just me trying to kneecap myself for roleplay, though. I'm sure everyone would get mad when I can't cast spells with a material component.

I mean, component pouches are implied to have every non-costed component you need. As far as the actual function of a wizard goes, he's not doing anything unusual. Ink for transcription, incense for Find Familiar etc. all really do cost a lot and whether that's a hardship is pretty much up to the GM.

Bankok
Sep 10, 2004

SPARTA!!!


OmniBeer posted:

I don't have the timestamp for it, but Debrah Ann Woll's game was a lot of fun too- it had Matt and Marisha as players.

It's right at the 6 hour mark.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


Woll was totally out of left field to me when they announced she was on Force Grey season 2, and then I listened to the D&D podcast when they were having Matt and the cast members of that show on leading up to the premiere and within the first five minutes she's talking about how she's got her own sort of starter set module that she homebrewed to run for people who've never played so she can get them into the game.

It's also kind of funny to picture that the cast of True Blood played D&D and not Vampire.

CuwiKhons
Sep 24, 2009

Seven idiots and a bear walk into a dragon's lair.



For those who don't watch Talks Machina, Marisha explained Beau's rationale and it's a pretty good point - the Mighty Nein are not Vox Machina. They're not the big heroes of the land, they're just a bunch of fucks trying to get by and dealing with trouble as it comes their way. If Cali was actually going to talk to Tiamat and get into trouble, that's not the M9's problem. That's a problem for a much stronger adventuring group. Beau didn't want a second dangerous artifact on their person when they're already dealing with the dodecahedron they nicked off the dead drow.

She also did not like the idea of holding Cali for the night because of "something in her backstory that I'm not prepared to talk about at the moment." I'm guessing she's had a bad jail experience.

CuwiKhons fucked around with this message at Jun 6, 2018 around 02:48

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014

Goodness no, now that wouldn't do at all!


I just very suddenly remembered a piece of relevant Steven Universe fan art and had to scramble to find it:

Dameius
Apr 3, 2006


1. Can we not turn this thread into yet another making GBS threads on 5e thread? The actual 5e thread does a good enough job at that.

2. For whomever was asking last page, Matt and Taliesin grew up playing Rifts. Marisha was one of the only people with ay experience campaign 1 session 1, and didn't play. She was Matt's helper with all the newbies out of game like how Taliesin was Matt's helper in game.

3. That was an amazing commercial.

CuwiKhons
Sep 24, 2009

Seven idiots and a bear walk into a dragon's lair.



I agree this isn't really the thread for general D&D discussion. That said, Matt apparently said on Twitter that he made some updates to Blood Hunter and I took a look at the changes (listed here) and while they're still minor upgrades, they at least indicate Matt and Taliesin are discussing what does and doesn't work about the class. I don't think this fixes enough problems with the class but I'm sure they'll keep talking about it and working on it.

Of course, none of it matters if Taliesin doesn't start getting into melee, god drat him.

kingcom
Jun 23, 2012



Dameius posted:

1. Can we not turn this thread into yet another making GBS threads on 5e thread? The actual 5e thread does a good enough job at that.

The discussion had stopped until you brought it back up again lol.


CuwiKhons posted:

I agree this isn't really the thread for general D&D discussion. That said, Matt apparently said on Twitter that he made some updates to Blood Hunter and I took a look at the changes (listed here) and while they're still minor upgrades, they at least indicate Matt and Taliesin are discussing what does and doesn't work about the class. I don't think this fixes enough problems with the class but I'm sure they'll keep talking about it and working on it.

Of course, none of it matters if Taliesin doesn't start getting into melee, god drat him.

Thats good to know they are seeing a problem even if its just taking babysteps. The big thing I'm super glad of is that they are realising the specialised nickle & dime class features are terrible and should just be stripped out. Relying on encountering one type of monster is always a problem for any type of campaign and hopefully having some class features that apply to all situations will encourage Talieson to get stuck in a bit more even if he just wants to be hanging next to another melee character at all times.

kingcom fucked around with this message at Jun 7, 2018 around 23:27

Adnor
Jan 11, 2013


Frumpkin is the least cat I've seen. Bad at stealth, bad at perception.

Teddybear
May 16, 2009

Look! A Samus doll!
It's soooo cute!


Lipstick Apathy

Boy some people are gonna be pissed about Sam's RPing here in having Nott not go to the encounter with everyone else because of the water.

EDIT: Or, rather, his delayed entry into the encounter.

Teddybear fucked around with this message at Jun 8, 2018 around 04:11

CuwiKhons
Sep 24, 2009

Seven idiots and a bear walk into a dragon's lair.



Molly is doing so much better now that he's actually getting into melee. Maybe when he and Matt talked about what was working or not with the Blood Hunter, Matt gave him a clue that he was not doing well at range.

Adnor
Jan 11, 2013


So, if Matt didn't tried to move in that last turn Caleb would have died, right?

CuwiKhons
Sep 24, 2009

Seven idiots and a bear walk into a dragon's lair.



Adnor posted:

So, if Matt didn't tried to move in that last turn Caleb would have died, right?

Nah, spells don't autocrit if they hit someone who's down, only melee attacks do. He would have failed another saving throw though and he'd be down to 1 last chance.

Teddybear
May 16, 2009

Look! A Samus doll!
It's soooo cute!


Lipstick Apathy

Adnor posted:

So, if Matt didn't tried to move in that last turn Caleb would have died, right?

Yeah, I mean, very good chance. He was on two death saving rolls, right? I dunno if it was mercy on them, or a gamble to try to reposition and hit more folks, but...

Eh, it felt like a mercy.

escalator dropdown
Jan 24, 2007

Like all good stories, the second act begins with a call to action and the building of a robot.



Adnor posted:

So, if Matt didn't tried to move in that last turn Caleb would have died, right?

I donít believe so. I believe Caleb only had one death save at that point, right? Thunderwave isnít an attack, so if it hit unconscious Caleb, he would only take one death save from it. Whether they would have killed it and stabilized him before taking a third save is another question though.

CuwiKhons
Sep 24, 2009

Seven idiots and a bear walk into a dragon's lair.



Teddybear posted:

Yeah, I mean, very good chance. He was on two death saving rolls, right? I dunno if it was mercy on them, or a gamble to try to reposition and hit more folks, but...

Eh, it felt like a mercy.


It was trying to reposition to get more people in the Thunderwave so it could knock everyone back and get away. If it had only caught one or two, it'd still have to take opportunity attacks while trying to escape from the people it couldn't knock back. Its only real hope was to try to take the opportunity attacks first - it's not like it could know Yasha has Sentinel to stop it from moving. Small amount of mercy but mostly just good positioning from the party by surrounding it.

Adnor
Jan 11, 2013


Thanks for the explanations! I've only played DnD once and with an, honestly, really bad group, so I don't know how these things works.

Adnor fucked around with this message at Jun 8, 2018 around 04:45

escalator dropdown
Jan 24, 2007

Like all good stories, the second act begins with a call to action and the building of a robot.



CuwiKhons posted:

Nah, spells don't autocrit if they hit someone who's down, only melee attacks do. He would have failed another saving throw though and he'd be down to 1 last chance.

Actually, any attack roll on an unconscious creature by an attacker within 5 feet crits ó so spells with an attack roll could if the caster was within 5 feet.

Not that the distinction mattered in this scenario, but you can totally double-tap someone with magic.

Also, Lauraís rage is so pure right now.

escalator dropdown fucked around with this message at Jun 8, 2018 around 16:13

CuwiKhons
Sep 24, 2009

Seven idiots and a bear walk into a dragon's lair.



escalator dropdown posted:

Actually, any attack roll with an attacker within 5 feet crits ó so spells with an attack roll could if the caster was within 5 feet.

Not that the distinction mattered in this scenario, but you can totally double-tap someone with magic.

You're right, although yeah it didn't matter here. Thunderwave doesn't have an attack roll anyway.

Teddybear
May 16, 2009

Look! A Samus doll!
It's soooo cute!


Lipstick Apathy

Laura's gonna angry herself into labor at this rate, jeez

Of course they beat me to the joke as I'm typing it

CuwiKhons
Sep 24, 2009

Seven idiots and a bear walk into a dragon's lair.



Okay, I legit was not expecting Jester to find actual symbols of the Traveler. Looks like she's not the only worshiper.

escalator dropdown
Jan 24, 2007

Like all good stories, the second act begins with a call to action and the building of a robot.



CuwiKhons posted:

Okay, I legit was not expecting Jester to find actual symbols of the Traveler. Looks like she's not the only worshiper.

The pamphlets are working!

kingcom
Jun 23, 2012



CuwiKhons posted:

Molly is doing so much better now that he's actually getting into melee. Maybe when he and Matt talked about what was working or not with the Blood Hunter, Matt gave him a clue that he was not doing well at range.

Extremely glad to hear this news.

escalator dropdown posted:

Actually, any attack roll with an attacker within 5 feet crits ó so spells with an attack roll could if the caster was within 5 feet.

Not that the distinction mattered in this scenario, but you can totally double-tap someone with magic.

Ironically its shocking grasp you want to double tap with, so frumpkin is the tool you want to pop players with. Speaking of this, for those more familiar how does matt treat downed players, like they are complete fair targets or most enemies ignoring them?

kingcom fucked around with this message at Jun 8, 2018 around 05:33

CuwiKhons
Sep 24, 2009

Seven idiots and a bear walk into a dragon's lair.



I'm not sure what spell is on Molly's new sword, whether it's Misty Step or Dimension Door, but either way it's a VERY clever method from Matt to convince Molly to get into melee more readily.

kingcom posted:

Ironically its shocking grasp you want to double tap with, so frumpkin is the tool you want to pop players with. Speaking of this, for those more familiar how does matt treat downed players, like they are complete fair targets or most enemies ignoring them?

Depends on the enemy, as well as the target. Like way back in Campaign 1 when they were fighting the Herd of Storms, they were extremely pissed at Grog in particular and he nearly went down. Matt afterwards pointed out that if he had, they'd have kept hitting him until he was mulch, not just stopped at unconscious. Ripley also had a specific target in mind and didn't stop shooting until he was dead, whereas Saundor was mad at Vex but wanted her alive so once she was unconscious, he switched targets even though he'd been focusing her before. The manticore from earlier in this campaign was also very mad at Nott and would have just ripped her to pieces. Other enemies may just want to win and know that an unconscious enemy is one who isn't dangerous anymore and they should stop other people from being able to do damage to them (or heal their allies) so they switch targets.

Just varies by situation.

CuwiKhons fucked around with this message at Jun 8, 2018 around 06:04

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Firstborn
Oct 14, 2012

Hope is a mistake


I did something similar for the rogue in my party who wasn't scouting ahead. I gave him a rapier with a bat motif, when tapped against a solid surface, gave him a sort of echolocation ability to "reveal" areas ahead. Once he started to get comfortable in the role, he used it less and less and more for roleplay stuff.

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