Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us $3,400 per month for bandwidth bills alone, and since we don't believe in shoving popup ads to our registered users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
  • Post
  • Reply
Dameius
Apr 3, 2006


CuwiKhons posted:

I haven't been posting in this thread for awhile (I stopped watching because I lost interest in Campaign 2) but I saw that on twitter and I just want to say that if you actually read the entire goddamn thing, it's extremely stupid. The person involved was in some drama awhile back where he was getting relentlessly harassed by homophobic fans, which is 100% terrible, don't get me wrong. But he sent an email to the CR cast about it, basically wanting to make the poor behavior of fans into the cast's problem to deal with. He also claimed he wanted to help them with their 'history of off-color jokes' and that he was a sensitivity consultant, which is a real thing, but I highly doubt he is one. He offered them some advice for free (he doesn't say what the advice was) and claims they were happy with his services (he doesn't say what actions they took in response to his advice so it's unclear if they were actually using him as a consultant - all the discord screenshots he posts are just friendly conversations). Then several months in, he realized 'oh wait, this is a job people get paid for' and asked CR to cut him a check. They declined and he claims they started ghosting him.

If you want to get hired as a sensitivity consultant by a company, send them a resume. Don't start doing volunteer work for free and then ask for a paycheck later. Also, the CR fanbase containing homophobic assholes is not CR's fault. They're extremely LGBT+ positive so I don't know how much clearer they can make it that they don't support homophobia.

Also the 'history of off-color jokes' stuff? He doesn't mention any specifics on what that is in this twitter thread but he's been associated with a particular Tumblr post that supposedly lists CR's many instances of queerphobic jokes and comments. It lists dozens of things and maybe two or three of them are actually worth discussing. I mean for god's sake, the first thing on the list is that Liam and Sam joking about being married is homophobic because it implies gay men cheat on their spouses???

Basically if this person can actually pull receipts and show clear proof that the CR cast really did take advantage of him, then sure, I'll eat my words. But right now, I think he's absolutely full of poo poo and was just trying to turn a buck on being harassed by the fandom. The cast didn't bite, now he's mad about it.

I have no prior history on this person like you do, but my impression from having read the whole rant basically mirrors yours. Even when they have total control over how to frame this to paint themselves in the best possible light, the story never seems to get to a point.

If they really do have receipts, part of it should be some examples of the work they were producing because I am having a hard time conceptualizing what value they could have been adding given how they described the approach to their work.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Trast
Oct 20, 2010

Three games, thousands of playthroughs. 90% of the players don't know I exist. Still a redhead saving the galaxy with a [Right Hook].



CuwiKhons posted:

Edit - I'm wrong, I have a very clear memory of them trying to tunnel their way to Xhorhas and actually making it through. They were in Xhorhas when I quit.

That's when things really pick up in my opinion. It feels like the cast is having a lot of fun in the societies they run into in Xhorhas compared to the more generic human ones previously. You should give it another try.

Hulk Smash!
Jul 14, 2004



Also, if you haven't watched it Ep. 52, right after they reach Xhorhas, is one of the funniest thing in both campaigns. Matt introduces a new NPC and the whole cast is cracking up to the point of having to walk away. Even just that episode alone is worth it IMO.

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014



Dameius posted:

I have no prior history on this person like you do, but my impression from having read the whole rant basically mirrors yours. Even when they have total control over how to frame this to paint themselves in the best possible light, the story never seems to get to a point.

If they really do have receipts, part of it should be some examples of the work they were producing because I am having a hard time conceptualizing what value they could have been adding given how they described the approach to their work.

Yeah, I was expecting some kind of big revelation like "I told them not to make this joke and Sam personally told me he would continue saying it just to spite me" or "Here's evidence of Matthew Mercer using a racial slur!" And it turned out to be an absolute waste of time to read.

Pinwiz11
Jan 26, 2009

I'm becom-, I'm becom-,
I'm becoming
Tana in, Tana in my mind.



I am looking forward to Dani's S2 before Ep 100, just to make sure I'm up-to-date. Thanks to the holiday I won't have a problem watching the ep live, we'll see how that continues if I have to start going back into the office in a couple of weeks.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

Taeke posted:

Im kind of confused about that thread, and I don't want to be insensitive or anything so if I'm missing the mark let me know, but the way I read it:

There's issues in the community with transphobia and types of bigoted behaviour that goes beyond the normal shittiness of the internet and into stalking and harassment territory.
They feel like the cast and crew don't address these issues as well as they should and even encourage the behaviour (without meaning to) with off color or insensitive jokes, showing inappropriate artwork in the showcase, etc?
They put in a lot of work to provide CR ways they could address those issues, of their own volition.
Their contacts at CR are super supportive and thankful for their input and work with them on it.
They feel like the situation doesn't improve fast enough.
They feel like they've put in so much time and effort in as a (impromptu/volunteer?) sensitivity consultant already that should they do any more they should get an official position and be paid.
CR agrees but doesn't take them up on it?

Do I have that right?

That was my reading too. I dug through again to find some examples of their history of "off-colour humour" and stuff against marginalized communities, but there's nothing there. Nor is there anything actually suggesting he was given or offered employment. They probably have dozens of volunteers throwing themselves at them, which I'd argue would be an issue, but that's still not a contract.

I did see one of his complaints: apparently Reani's official art was whitewashed. You can check out the image here, but I don't agree with that https://criticalrole.fandom.com/wiki/Reani

Otherwise all I can see from that tweet storm is hyperbole. Rampant issues with the team and homophobia and racism that are getting worse? I doubt it.

That said, I've seen enough random shittyness in their community, but their moderators are pretty quick on the draw and they're all very outspoken supporters of LGTBQ+ and things like BLM. I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Mywhatacleanturtle
Jul 23, 2006



Pinwiz11 posted:

I am looking forward to Dani's S2 before Ep 100, just to make sure I'm up-to-date. Thanks to the holiday I won't have a problem watching the ep live, we'll see how that continues if I have to start going back into the office in a couple of weeks.

Are the pre-recorded sessions airing at the usual time or did the change the schedule?

Pinwiz11
Jan 26, 2009

I'm becom-, I'm becom-,
I'm becoming
Tana in, Tana in my mind.



Mywhatacleanturtle posted:

Are the pre-recorded sessions airing at the usual time or did the change the schedule?

Same broadcast time. However, since I live in Central the episodes regularly run past midnight for me.

eke out
Feb 24, 2013




Orcs and Ostriches posted:

I did see one of his complaints: apparently Reani's official art was whitewashed. You can check out the image here, but I don't agree with that https://criticalrole.fandom.com/wiki/Reani

lol what is even the complaint? 'dark skin, white hair, gold freckles' is like the exact description i seem to recall

the stuff about them not policing anti-trans/gay bigots is also baffling to me as a queer fan,their fanbase is incredibly diverse in terms of gender and sexuality and mods and cast members do a very good job. i'm sure some bigotry exists precisely because the fanbase is full of openly queer/trans/gnc people and therefore attracts nazi trolls, but it's not like those people are allowed to hang out and harass anyone

eke out fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Jun 26, 2020

NowonSA
Jul 19, 2013

I am the sexiest poster in the world!


I assumed that some whitewashed art was part of the art breaks they run before the stream and during the intermission, and that was the complaint. I wouldn't say there's a "good" way to whitewash a character, but fanart of a d&d character has to be about as close as you can get to that not being an issue. It's an artist's attempt to create a character based on a brief physical description, and by the way that character may not look anything like the actor who's playing them, including having different skin color, height, and a different gender or gender identity.

Taeke
Feb 2, 2010



So my first impression that this person is just upset that CR didn't offer them a job and do things their way isn't just me, cool. Seems like they're legitimately struggling with harassment from the community, which sucks, and that they've put in a lot of effort to try to solve that problem, which is admirable, but now that it's not working out the way they want they're taking it out on the wrong people.

Mywhatacleanturtle
Jul 23, 2006



This is completely anecdotal, so make it that what you will, but Iím pretty outspoken about my gender identity issues and queer representation re:CR on twitter+elsewhere, and at most Iíve been confronted by a handful of bigoted wankstains with any attachment to the community. Itís reminiscent of the centrist dems whining that Bernie wasnít personally policing every single one of his supporters on the internet.

Also,I get the impression that if there was any conclusive evidence of hateful behavior from CR themselves it would be included in the time the person wrote since theyíre trying to make such a spectacle of it.

Josef bugman
Nov 17, 2011

Chomsky Boi

Ohhh got it.

Sorry to bring this up folks I just was a bit confused by it myself and was very much wondering if anyone had heard more. Sorry to bother everyone! Especially at the moment.

jng2058
Jul 17, 2010

We have the tools, we have the talent!


Okay, on one hand I get the whole "if you're good at something, never do it for free" idea. Everyone's gotta make a buck to live in America.

But...it seems a little skeevy to volunteer to do something for free, do it for months, then demand payment after the fact.

Pussy Quipped
Jan 29, 2009



jng2058 posted:

Okay, on one hand I get the whole "if you're good at something, never do it for free" idea. Everyone's gotta make a buck to live in America.

But...it seems a little skeevy to volunteer to do something for free, do it for months, then demand payment after the fact.

Its like mowing someones lawn then ringing their doorbell and asking for payment.

Hulk Smash!
Jul 14, 2004



https://twitter.com/CriticalRole/st...555265345679360

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

Josef bugman posted:

Ohhh got it.

Sorry to bring this up folks I just was a bit confused by it myself and was very much wondering if anyone had heard more. Sorry to bother everyone! Especially at the moment.

Nah, it's good to bring stuff up like this. There might not actually be any substance to it now, but often times there is.

Crazy Ted
Jul 29, 2003



Fandoms: Not even once

Dexo
Aug 15, 2009

I been ballin' so damn hard I swear I think that I'm Coby


It's incredibly not skeevy to start to ask to be paid for something that people get paid for that you have been doing for free.


They are under no obligation to hire you or retain you. But saying that person shouldn't be paid for sensitivity consulting which is something that people generally get paid for is absurd.

Dramatika
Aug 1, 2002

THE BANK IS OPEN

It sounds like they complained to CR about harassment, CR took the time to listen to him, and now he wants to be paid for complaining.

Itís like me PMing a mod, telling them I donít like what their doing, and then sending a consulting invoice.

Crazy Ted
Jul 29, 2003



And he waited until the announcement about the show returning to say, "Look I've been sitting on this for over a year and REALLY didn't want to do this, but..."

And a cursory reading from Tweets by people who've interacted with him make him out to be a cock.

Malpais Legate
Oct 1, 2014



That Twitter thread was so loving vague that I still don't even understand what their grievance is with Critical Role.

Crazy Ted
Jul 29, 2003



Malpais Legate posted:

That Twitter thread was so loving vague that I still don't even understand what their grievance is with Critical Role.
He apparently had issues with treatment of minority groups in the CR community as well as issues with the show, reached out, volunteered advice, was listened to, after four months wanted to start being paid, and at that point discussion ended.

Apparently he thinks he should be backpaid for that four months of volunteer work or something. Oh and this was all done via e-mails and Discord so in no way was any of this professional-level communication.

Crazy Ted fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Jun 26, 2020

Pinwiz11
Jan 26, 2009

I'm becom-, I'm becom-,
I'm becoming
Tana in, Tana in my mind.



Wasn't their harassment the reason behind Matt's gently stern "stop it" message in the pre-show? Don't know which episode.

Taeke
Feb 2, 2010



Dexo posted:

It's incredibly not skeevy to start to ask to be paid for something that people get paid for that you have been doing for free.


They are under no obligation to hire you or retain you. But saying that person shouldn't be paid for sensitivity consulting which is something that people generally get paid for is absurd.

Nobody is saying that.

What we're saying it's skeevy to feel like you're entitled to a job just because you volunteered your services in the past, then going on a twitter rant trying to get them in trouble when it doesn't work out the way you want.

If CR actually hired them then it's another matter, but by their admission that's not the case.

Pocky In My Pocket
Jan 27, 2005

Giant robots shouldn't fight!



Just seen a thread on twitter from someone saying that twitter user is bad because of tonnes of stuff so i guess the CR fandom is going to go bananas in some form for a bit lmao

Lucas Archer
Dec 1, 2007
Falling...

Crazy Ted posted:

Fandoms: Not even once

Honestly, this, right here. The last fandom I was involved in as a *fan* was Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I don't know if anyone remembers the old official forum, The Bronze, for Buffy, but it was where I really started posting online. And it devolved into the same insane bullshit every fandom devolves into, because when you create something entertaining and fun, you're going to attract humans. And humans can be absolute shitheads. And it splinters and fractions and drives people to one side or another and there will be assholes on all sides, even the "right" side because some people are just assholes, even if they are an rear end in a top hat for a good cause. And until we can correct that behavior, just DON'T BE A loving rear end in a top hat YOU SHITHEADS, it will always happen that way. But assholes are loud and annoying and the majority of people are very conflict-adverse, so it's the assholes on both sides that run the conversations.

Note, I'm specifically talking about fandoms here, not any other group of people. Fandoms are the loving worst.

Mywhatacleanturtle
Jul 23, 2006



Lucas Archer posted:

Honestly, this, right here. The last fandom I was involved in as a *fan* was Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I don't know if anyone remembers the old official forum, The Bronze, for Buffy, but it was where I really started posting online. And it devolved into the same insane bullshit every fandom devolves into, because when you create something entertaining and fun, you're going to attract humans. And humans can be absolute shitheads. And it splinters and fractions and drives people to one side or another and there will be assholes on all sides, even the "right" side because some people are just assholes, even if they are an rear end in a top hat for a good cause. And until we can correct that behavior, just DON'T BE A loving rear end in a top hat YOU SHITHEADS, it will always happen that way. But assholes are loud and annoying and the majority of people are very conflict-adverse, so it's the assholes on both sides that run the conversations.

Note, I'm specifically talking about fandoms here, not any other group of people. Fandoms are the loving worst.

Case in point: The time Voltron fans threatened to burn down the animation studio unless they made their ship of choice canon.

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014



Dexo posted:

It's incredibly not skeevy to start to ask to be paid for something that people get paid for that you have been doing for free.


They are under no obligation to hire you or retain you. But saying that person shouldn't be paid for sensitivity consulting which is something that people generally get paid for is absurd.

If you suddenly do a bunch of work for free that nobody asked for and then begin demanding payment after the fact, youíre a dipshit. Sorry to bust in on your stoplight squeegee hustle.

Mywhatacleanturtle
Jul 23, 2006



I think the pandemic did more brains in than any other 21st century event other than 9/11, as there's been more drama per day in the last 5 months than any other point I can reasonably remember.

Hulk Smash!
Jul 14, 2004



2020, not even once

Dexo
Aug 15, 2009

I been ballin' so damn hard I swear I think that I'm Coby


chitoryu12 posted:

If you suddenly do a bunch of work for free that nobody asked for and then begin demanding payment after the fact, you’re a dipshit. Sorry to bust in on your stoplight squeegee hustle.

What the gently caress are you talking about

They didn't demand, they asked to be brought on and to start being compensated for the work they were doing. It doesn't even sound like they were asking to be retroactively paid. If they were actually putting in the work and doing video conferences with CR on these issues for months then it is extremely not being a dipshit to say hey maybe we could be brought on or work out some kind of deal to do this long term.

It was or would have been extremely fair for CR to bow out at that point. Or whatever. But gently caress the notion that one shouldn't be able to be asked to be paid if they are performing work that companies pay people do do for them.


One should never be ashamed to ask to be compensated for their work.

When I was way younger I used to help or fix my friends or friends of family's PCs for free, at some point I realized I didn't want to do it for free anymore so I started charging people some got mad because I suddenly realized that what I was doing is a valuable service.

Lucas Archer
Dec 1, 2007
Falling...

Mywhatacleanturtle posted:

Case in point: The time Voltron fans threatened to burn down the animation studio unless they made their ship of choice canon.

what the gently caress I've never seen an episode of the new Voltron so I had no idea about this but you're right it proves the point. Holy gently caress, it's a fictional show about giant robot lions loving calm the gently caress down. Jesus christ.

Taeke
Feb 2, 2010



Dexo posted:

What the gently caress are you talking about

They didn't demand, they asked to be brought on and to start being compensated for the work they were doing. It doesn't even sound like they were asking to be retroactively paid. If they were actually putting in the work and doing video conferences with CR on these issues for months then it is extremely not being a dipshit to say hey maybe we could be brought on or work out some kind of deal to do this long term.

It was or would have been extremely fair for CR to bow out at that point.
That's the thing: they did exactly that.

Again, we're not faulting the person for asking to be compenated for future work. I'm also not accusing them of asking to be paid retroactively or anything. It's all perfectly fine up until that point.

I mean, plenty of artists, for example, got paying gigs that way, including at CR.

What we're suspicious about is that it seems that when CR bowed out at that point, they're now accusing CR of all kinds of lovely things. Seems like not being able to cope with a combination of the harassment they're receiving as well as the disappointment of things not working out the way they want at best, and vindictive at worst.

Also doesn't seem unreasonable to cut ties with someone when they start asking compensation, especially when that contact would be a huge part of the work. If CR declines to hire them as a sensitivity consultant, then it's only fair they also stop talking to them about those issues because that would be exactly what they'd pay them for had they hired them.

To use your example, it'd be like you would start charging people, then when someone declined your services you'd demand to be let in the house to look at their computer regardless.

That's what's happening here. Your family friend that you've helped with their computer declined your help once there was a pricetag involved, maybe because they'd want an actual professional if they were paying for it anyway, and now you're standing outside their house calling them lovely people because they won't use your servives anymore. Meanwhile there's viruses on the computer, sure, but that's not really the issue.

Taeke fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Jun 26, 2020

Crazy Ted
Jul 29, 2003



Okay I was wrong about him demanding to be retroactively paid, but poo poo he's so vague about everything can you blame me? He has a "team" but doesn't name anybody, talks about emails/discords/videos but doesn't show evidence of anything, and of the supposedly "dozens" of instances of bigotry the cast has engaged in almost all of it is stuff that just kind of makes you go "huh???".

If you're going to make that kind of an accusation, you'd better have receipts ready.

Crazy Ted fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Jun 26, 2020

Dexo
Aug 15, 2009

I been ballin' so damn hard I swear I think that I'm Coby


Stop expanding this to be beyond my problem with one person's post about this thing, that hits a nerve because it's how a ton of people are treated online in creative/consulting spaces.

I don't know what the gently caress is going on with this person's claims, I don't know what actually happened. I'm not really commenting on that at all. I too would like to see more or some more proof about these conversations. But in general my qualms in my post was only in relation to

Crazy Ted posted:

He apparently had issues with treatment of minority groups in the CR community as well as issues with the show, reached out, volunteered advice, was listened to, after four months wanted to start being paid, and at that point discussion ended.

Apparently he thinks he should be backpaid for that four months of volunteer work or something. Oh and this was all done via e-mails and Discord so in no way was any of this professional-level communication.

Which you admitted you inferred incorrectly. So thanks

jng2058 posted:

Okay, on one hand I get the whole "if you're good at something, never do it for free" idea. Everyone's gotta make a buck to live in America.

But...it seems a little skeevy to volunteer to do something for free, do it for months, then demand payment after the fact.

And this.

It's never Skeevy to ask to be compensated for a service you are providing. My response has only been to that specific and incredibly toxic line of thinking. If it doesn't apply to you then it doesn't apply to you.

Like people called them out for using fans to do their episode transcription. Who they were exploiting for said work. And they changed their policy and hired a service after people brought it up.

Nemo2342
Nov 25, 2007

Have A Day





Nap Ghost

NowonSA posted:

I assumed that some whitewashed art was part of the art breaks they run before the stream and during the intermission, and that was the complaint. I wouldn't say there's a "good" way to whitewash a character, but fanart of a d&d character has to be about as close as you can get to that not being an issue. It's an artist's attempt to create a character based on a brief physical description, and by the way that character may not look anything like the actor who's playing them, including having different skin color, height, and a different gender or gender identity.

I definitely remember some of the artists I follow complaining about things that get featured in the art roll. Beau seemed to be focal point as far as characters whose skin tone was off the mark.

The challenge is that itís really hard to separate out a legitimate issue from people just being upset that their art didnít get picked (or that people they didnít care for keep getting picked).

RC Cola
Aug 1, 2011

Dovie'andi se tovya sagain






Dexo posted:

Stop expanding this to be beyond my problem with one person's post about this thing, that hits a nerve because it's how a ton of people are treated online in creative/consulting spaces.

I don't know what the gently caress is going on with this person's claims, I don't know what actually happened. I'm not really commenting on that at all. I too would like to see more or some more proof about these conversations. But in general my qualms in my post was only in relation to


Which you admitted you inferred incorrectly. So thanks


And this.

It's never Skeevy to ask to be compensated for a service you are providing. My response has only been to that specific and incredibly toxic line of thinking. If it doesn't apply to you then it doesn't apply to you.

Like people called them out for using fans to do their episode transcription. Who they were exploiting for said work. And they changed their policy and hired a service after people brought it up.

Can you please pay me for responding to your post?

Dexo
Aug 15, 2009

I been ballin' so damn hard I swear I think that I'm Coby


RC Cola posted:

Can you please pay me for responding to your post?

Nope I will not.

I do plan to hire a professional reply service to positively reply to all my posts though.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

RC Cola
Aug 1, 2011

Dovie'andi se tovya sagain






Dexo posted:

Nope I will not.

I do plan to hire a professional reply service to positively reply to all my posts though.

Sounds good, I will continue to just post for free then, thanks!

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply