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Veks
May 12, 2012

OOOOOOH MYYY GOOOOOOOOOOOOD


NowonSA posted:

I assumed that some whitewashed art was part of the art breaks they run before the stream and during the intermission, and that was the complaint. I wouldn't say there's a "good" way to whitewash a character, but fanart of a d&d character has to be about as close as you can get to that not being an issue. It's an artist's attempt to create a character based on a brief physical description, and by the way that character may not look anything like the actor who's playing them, including having different skin color, height, and a different gender or gender identity.

All the player and guest characters are introduced with official art and at least in Reani's case her skin color should not be up to debate bc shes played by a black woman who described her as being brown skinned. It takes zero effort to use a color picker tool to get her skin color right. You wouldnt make Black Panther white, I dont see why DnD characters should be treated differently.

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Hulk Smash!
Jul 14, 2004



There was one idiot early on who posted a whitewashed painting of Beau that they said was "more to their liking" and IIRC Matt, rightly, laid into them on Twitter. That was just a post tagging CR though, it didn't make the art reel.

PetraCore
Jul 20, 2017





Orcs and Ostriches posted:

That was my reading too. I dug through again to find some examples of their history of "off-colour humour" and stuff against marginalized communities, but there's nothing there. Nor is there anything actually suggesting he was given or offered employment. They probably have dozens of volunteers throwing themselves at them, which I'd argue would be an issue, but that's still not a contract.

I did see one of his complaints: apparently Reani's official art was whitewashed. You can check out the image here, but I don't agree with that https://criticalrole.fandom.com/wiki/Reani

Otherwise all I can see from that tweet storm is hyperbole. Rampant issues with the team and homophobia and racism that are getting worse? I doubt it.

That said, I've seen enough random shittyness in their community, but their moderators are pretty quick on the draw and they're all very outspoken supporters of LGTBQ+ and things like BLM. I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Basically the twitter op laid stuff out like 'people think I'm making this up!!!' and I don't but also don't think he said anything as damning as he thinks he did.

Edit: also nothing wrong with asking to be paid for the amount of labor he was putting in but there's also nothing wrong with CR saying 'we aren't looking to hire, thanks'. I can't say anything further bc I don't know what hus suggestions were, if they've been implimented, and if he was the only one to suggest it, nor do I think it's bad for CR to look over suggestions given for free and go, huh, didn't think about this one, it makes sense.

If there's more to the story than a crushing sense of disappointment that something didn't work out like he wanted and a relationship he assumed was personal being dropped when he suggested making it transactional I didn't pick that up in my skim read, although I'm sorry he got (gets?) so badly harrassed by bigots.

PetraCore fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Jun 26, 2020

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

I'm still curious at what he thinks people think is made up? It's dozens of posts of word vomit, and every request for examples of the CR group saying or doing something bigoted or inappropriate is rebuked or met with vague responses. The only thing I can gather from the whole thing is that he was volunteering for them, and never got paid for it.

It's the claims of critical role getting worse on how they treat or refer to marginalized communities that I'm interested in. I don't see it, but if examples are there, I would like to know. If not only for my own benefit to know what to avoid. Really, the only things I've seen are featuring Reani's whitewashed art in the fanart section, and not having any POC in the main cast. Someone said Marisha shouldn't play a POC in game.

Yeah, it sucks if he thought he was moving into a paying gig. And lovely of the CR team *if* they were leading him on to thinking that was going to be the case. But everything he supplied looks like an over-eager fan that had deeper access into the team and an inflated ego because of it. The harassment blows, and I don't know any good answers to that. From what I can see, CR tries to foster an inclusive fan base as possible, but as mentioned early, fandom breaks people.

Man, I need to get back into playing games or something. Boredom makes me way too interested about some of this stuff.

The Repo Man
Jul 31, 2013

I Remember...


https://twitter.com/VirasaysDRAGONS...3246042113?s=20

Seems like the person might just be lovely. I don't know. I haven't gone through their Twitter history and I'm only posting this because it showed up on the "X People Liked This" thing on Twitter.

Edit: Regardless if they are just an annoying twat, it's not really reason for a community to go after them. Just let them scream into the void or something, I don't know. It just seems like they are a waste of energy.

PetraCore
Jul 20, 2017





CuwiKhons posted:

I don't remember what episode it was specifically where I stopped but it was around when they were sailing around on the oceans somewhat aimlessly. The last major thing I remember is Caduceus one-turn killing an enemy ship and Matt being at a total loss.

I did hear that it got better later but right now it just feels like such a backlog to catch up on? I probably should have used the hiatus to catch up but I didn't and now we're here. Part of my problem is that I just don't care for some of the characters at all. I really dislike Nott and I find Caleb quite dull as well.

Edit - I'm wrong, I have a very clear memory of them trying to tunnel their way to Xhorhas and actually making it through. They were in Xhorhas when I quit.
I can see why you quit there if you dislike Nott, it's quite a Nott heavy character beat. I will say it quickly turns into other character's times to shine as things both rapidly escalate and other very interesting plot beats overshadow the nott content, so you've basically made it past the heaviest nott-centric episodes already. As well, the m9 meet an npc caleb bounces off of really well, so he might get more interesting to you, idk your personal tastes.

Patrovsky
May 8, 2007
whatever is fine





I would say at least go to the end of episode 56. Without saying anything else, some stuff happens that kicks things into gear a bit.

Arthil
Feb 17, 2012

A Beard of Constant Sorrow


Orcs and Ostriches posted:

That was my reading too. I dug through again to find some examples of their history of "off-colour humour" and stuff against marginalized communities, but there's nothing there. Nor is there anything actually suggesting he was given or offered employment. They probably have dozens of volunteers throwing themselves at them, which I'd argue would be an issue, but that's still not a contract.

I did see one of his complaints: apparently Reani's official art was whitewashed. You can check out the image here, but I don't agree with that https://criticalrole.fandom.com/wiki/Reani

Otherwise all I can see from that tweet storm is hyperbole. Rampant issues with the team and homophobia and racism that are getting worse? I doubt it.

That said, I've seen enough random shittyness in their community, but their moderators are pretty quick on the draw and they're all very outspoken supporters of LGTBQ+ and things like BLM. I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I've never liked people freaking out about people drawing the characters differently, if I am honest. No one seemed to listen to Sam when he said Nott was a horrifying little goblin girl with a mouth full of nothing but teeth. Instead we got very adorable gobbos. Specifically there was one artist who stylized all of the characters MASSIVELY, none of them really looked like their official art whatsoever like with Cad being a glorious Llama-man. And people specifically went after them regarding Beau. It was ridiculous.

PetraCore
Jul 20, 2017





Arthil posted:

I've never liked people freaking out about people drawing the characters differently, if I am honest. No one seemed to listen to Sam when he said Nott was a horrifying little goblin girl with a mouth full of nothing but teeth. Instead we got very adorable gobbos. Specifically there was one artist who stylized all of the characters MASSIVELY, none of them really looked like their official art whatsoever like with Cad being a glorious Llama-man. And people specifically went after them regarding Beau. It was ridiculous.
Yeah it's one thing if they're specifically whitewashing but there's a lot of 'different than official art'. I'm just remembering something from uuuuh Steven Universe fandom back in the day when people went after someone for their Connie art which wasn't even whitewashed, just playing with lighting and color palettes, using screenshots from the show as 'proof' the artist drew her significantly lighter when the screenshots were all from scenes with dark or saturated lighting and not bright lighting that, you know, washes out colors some.

Whitewashing bad, 'you can't draw poc with pastels' also pretty bad imo.

PetraCore
Jul 20, 2017





Veks posted:

All the player and guest characters are introduced with official art and at least in Reani's case her skin color should not be up to debate bc shes played by a black woman who described her as being brown skinned. It takes zero effort to use a color picker tool to get her skin color right. You wouldnt make Black Panther white, I dont see why DnD characters should be treated differently.
Okay this isn't what I'm talking about but I want to riff off it a bit - I'm not a visual artist but my understanding is you can't just use a color picker tool to get her skin color right unless you're using the same lighting, but you should use that to get a feel for her general range of skin tones that you then adjust based on lighting and palette using skills I don't fully understand. Some people are going to be better at it than others, but you're right that she shouldn't suddenly look white.

EDIT: This isn't me disagreeing with you! If someone is playing around and ends up with a piece where Reani looks white I think they should not post it and work on their coloring more, she's very definitively brown-skinned.

PetraCore fucked around with this message at 03:19 on Jun 27, 2020

Keru
Aug 2, 2004

'n suddenly there was a terrible roar all around us 'n the sky was full of what looked like 'uge bats, all swooping 'n screeching 'n divin' around the ute.


This whole attempt of theirs hasn't gone well, has it?

https://twitter.com/guxpito/status/...2748884993?s=20

Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!

Keru posted:

This whole attempt of theirs hasn't gone well, has it?

https://twitter.com/guxpito/status/...2748884993?s=20

https://twitter.com/guxpito/status/1276569637799460865

can't believe this guy wasn't hired as a sensitivity reader!

PetraCore
Jul 20, 2017





Well this is an oof from me.

https://twitter.com/jessterlavorre/...286392541130752

eke out
Feb 24, 2013




intense parasocial relationships are some poo poo, good lord

Arthil
Feb 17, 2012

A Beard of Constant Sorrow





loving hell.

PetraCore
Jul 20, 2017





eke out posted:

intense parasocial relationships are some poo poo, good lord
That's kind of what I thought was happening from his initial thread (there being intense parasocial over-investment) but it sucks to be right sometimes! I believe he thinks he's been deeply wronged and is distressed over it, even if I don't feel like CR wronged him.

Antifa Spacemarine
Jan 11, 2011

Tzeentch can suck it.

This dude is one of the insane shitstirrers that always leak out of the woodwork on Twitter. Insane people who want to redirect legitimate conversations about these kind of topics onto themselves. They're not too unlike the insane Trumpers who like to invent victim complexes to "prove" Hillary ran a pedo ring out of a pizza shop. Usually they are noticeable when they focus entirely on themselves in the narrative - rather than facts, examples, or what actually happened. Not a surprise he really could only grasp at straws for all his examples. It's a shame, because if/when (not even necessarily at CR) real issues crop up, these assholes will be in the back of people's minds creating doubt.

Abisteen
Sep 30, 2005

Oh my God what the fuck am I?

Crazy Ted posted:

Fandoms: Not even once

I feel like I say these exact words inside my head at least once a month when drama like this gets stirred up in various communities.

Dawgstar
Jul 15, 2017



Lucas Archer posted:

Honestly, this, right here. The last fandom I was involved in as a *fan* was Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I don't know if anyone remembers the old official forum, The Bronze, for Buffy, but it was where I really started posting online. And it devolved into the same insane bullshit every fandom devolves into, because when you create something entertaining and fun, you're going to attract humans. And humans can be absolute shitheads. And it splinters and fractions and drives people to one side or another and there will be assholes on all sides, even the "right" side because some people are just assholes, even if they are an rear end in a top hat for a good cause. And until we can correct that behavior, just DON'T BE A loving rear end in a top hat YOU SHITHEADS, it will always happen that way. But assholes are loud and annoying and the majority of people are very conflict-adverse, so it's the assholes on both sides that run the conversations.

Note, I'm specifically talking about fandoms here, not any other group of people. Fandoms are the loving worst.

I remember the stages of fandom somebody posted somewhere:

1. I love this
2. I own this
3. I control this
4. I can't control this
5. I hate this
6. I must destroy this

And it feels even weirder for CR because I come at it from the RPG side more than the live-action improv drama side others do, which means it's watching people go all the way out of their entire drat minds on somebody else playing a character wrong.

Nuggan
Jul 17, 2006

Always rolling skulls.


What the heck is the " fjorester callout doc" and why does that tweet seem to imply other people know what it is. Do people have a problem with Fjord an Jester potentially being a couple or something?

PetraCore
Jul 20, 2017





If you want to have fun in fandom, you have to harshly curate your experience, imo. Find friends who are chill and have boundaries. Talk about the thing you like.

Keru
Aug 2, 2004

'n suddenly there was a terrible roar all around us 'n the sky was full of what looked like 'uge bats, all swooping 'n screeching 'n divin' around the ute.


Nuggan posted:

What the heck is the " fjorester callout doc" and why does that tweet seem to imply other people know what it is. Do people have a problem with Fjord an Jester potentially being a couple or something?

It's got all the hallmarks of "only my headcanon is legitimate and here's a 5000 word document why" style of crazy.

AngryBooch
Sep 26, 2009


My rule of safely ignoring anyone who calls themselves a "consultant" still stands.

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014



https://twitter.com/magmamagda/stat...5524725762?s=21

Even people I know have been attacked by this guy!

PetraCore
Jul 20, 2017





Sibling... coded? I understand someone being uncomfortable with how Jester hits on him initially (although I wouldn't call her a predator, it can get a bit uncomfy, like some of the Beau stuff) but sibling coded is a really weird one to me.

Besides, we all know Fjord is sibling coded with Cadeucus.

eke out
Feb 24, 2013




in my opinion, if you can understand the specifics of the ship-based fandom conflicts going on, you've probably gone too far lol

Vando
Oct 26, 2007

I want to be one of
those madmen


My read on this person is they found an "in" with the CR team and ran with it, worked up to the point where they figured "ok I've convinced them this is work that needs to be done, now to ask to be employed so I can *really* feel part of the team!" and it turns out that the folks at CR think they're probably just better off handling it themselves, the plan is in ruins, and it's time to lash out.

Paracaidas
Sep 24, 2016
Literal Nazi


Keru posted:

It's got all the hallmarks of "only my headcanon is legitimate and here's a 5000 word document why" style of crazy.

C2E95 Theses

CuwiKhons
Sep 24, 2009

Seven idiots and a bear walk into a dragon's lair.



It's me, person who is still horribly in touch with this fandom despite not watching the show anymore, here to explain stupid idiotic fandom garbage.

PetraCore posted:

Sibling... coded? I understand someone being uncomfortable with how Jester hits on him initially (although I wouldn't call her a predator, it can get a bit uncomfy, like some of the Beau stuff) but sibling coded is a really weird one to me.

Besides, we all know Fjord is sibling coded with Cadeucus.

"Sibling coded" is a weird term that kinda came out of the Voltron fandom I think. Some people shipped Shiro/Keith and the Keith/Lance shippers screamed bloody murder about it because they're "basically siblings" and therefore it's incest and you're a filthy incest shipper if you like Shiro/Keith and yes we know they're not actually related and didn't grow up together but they act like siblings, therefore. I didn't even watch Voltron past the first season and I kept hearing about this drama from friends.

Nuggan posted:

What the heck is the " fjorester callout doc" and why does that tweet seem to imply other people know what it is. Do people have a problem with Fjord an Jester potentially being a couple or something?

Keru posted:

It's got all the hallmarks of "only my headcanon is legitimate and here's a 5000 word document why" style of crazy.

So weirdly, this doesn't actually have much of anything to do with people shipping Fjord and Jester. Basically there was a discord server for Fjord/Jester fans and it turned out to be a toxic hellhole. The callout doc was a very long post taking screenshots of the absolute torrents of racism and homophobia spewing forth from people in that discord and ultimately got the server shut down. It was all over the fandom spaces for awhile but it was also like, a year ago so I can't find it now.

Edit - oh, I think it's because it's been deleted. I think the person who originally exposed all of their poo poo got harassed off twitter.

CuwiKhons fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Jun 27, 2020

PetraCore
Jul 20, 2017





Anyone who has to scream bloody murder about competing ships instead of going 'cool, I'm going to avoid that and sit on a nest of fanwork of my personal ship' is too into fandom.

Adnor
Jan 11, 2013

Justice for Daisy



PetraCore posted:

Anyone who has to scream bloody murder about competing ships instead of going 'cool, I'm going to avoid that and sit on a nest of fanwork of my personal ship' is too into fandom.

I've seen strong friendships end because of shipping wars, it's crazy.

PetraCore
Jul 20, 2017





Adnor posted:

I've seen strong friendships end because of shipping wars, it's crazy.
It would blow these peoples minds to learn you can like multiple exclusionary relationships for a character for different reasons.

CuwiKhons
Sep 24, 2009

Seven idiots and a bear walk into a dragon's lair.



PetraCore posted:

Anyone who has to scream bloody murder about competing ships instead of going 'cool, I'm going to avoid that and sit on a nest of fanwork of my personal ship' is too into fandom.

You are absolutely correct.

Voltron fandom is one of the most toxic "communities" I know of and I've been in and out of fandom spaces since I was in middle school. And worse, it was such a big fandom that it ended up poisoning the well for a lot of other communities, leading to the spread of garbage like "sibling coded" or "you're a pedophile if your ship has an age gap of more than X years [number varies by person], no it doesn't matter if both of them are adults."

Lucas Archer
Dec 1, 2007
Falling...

Shipping in CR really bothers me, just the concept of it. I don't know if I can put into words why. It has something to with the fact that the characters are being created by their creators in real time.

Bobbin Threadbare
Jan 2, 2009

I'm looking for a flock of urbanmechs.



Lucas Archer posted:

Shipping in CR really bothers me, just the concept of it. I don't know if I can put into words why. It has something to with the fact that the characters are being created by their creators in real time.

That and you're looking at real people who have real relationships with each other that don't have anything to do with their characters.

CuwiKhons
Sep 24, 2009

Seven idiots and a bear walk into a dragon's lair.



Bobbin Threadbare posted:

That and you're looking at real people who have real relationships with each other that don't have anything to do with their characters.

I don't blame anyone for being bothered by this but for what it's worth, Travis shipped the hell out of Percy/Vex and has not been shy about how much he loved it at panels and in interviews. Since they're all professional actors, I don't think any of them are bothered by fake relationships. It can definitely be weird to watch though.

PetraCore
Jul 20, 2017





Eh, for me shipping is more about what I think would be interesting. I like Shadowghast for that reason, but I'm also not investing my identity in it or feeling like I'm being cheated if it doesn't go there. Sometimes what dynamics I find interesting shifts enough I can go from being repelled by a ship to interested to back again. I'm not trying to lay any sort of claim to the actual work, but spinning off interesting hypotheticals in my head.

I guess it is sort of different than in a scripted work where there can be one couple intended to end up together, but it's hard for me to put my finger on where it is. The intersection of fanwork and intellectual property is an interesting one, and I think it becomes even more interesting in a more personal format like tabletop, where people's player characters are much more closely tied to them. Someone was talking in PYF about only knowing about Critical Role from- well, the people shoving it on them were gross, for one thing, but also were linking them to youtube videos of people roleplaying as Jester? Like, not cosplaying Jester and acting like her in costume. Even without the other context it surprised me how much that weirded me out in a way someone writing fanfic of CR characters wouldn't.

EDIT: As for them being played by actual people, yeah, you have to have a good boundary of ic is not ooc, and that doesn't only apply to CR type stuff. The Supernatural fandom apparently got crazy into the actors lives and projecting ships of the characters onto the actors, which is hugely toxic.

EDIT EDIT: OH, you mean actually looking. I listen to the podcast so I missed that. It's all mental pictures, baby!

PetraCore fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Jun 28, 2020

Dexo
Aug 15, 2009

I been ballin' so damn hard I swear I think that I'm Coby


Shipping characters is fun and owns


Being weirdos about shipping to real people is bad and sucks.

Crazy Ted
Jul 29, 2003



People who are seriously offended that two people who are husband and wife in real life are striking up a flirty relationship in their LARP'ing Dungeons & Dragons show have brainworms on a level I can't comprehend.

Seriously I just can't comprehend it.

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PetraCore
Jul 20, 2017





Crazy Ted posted:

People who are seriously offended that two people who are husband and wife in real life are striking up a flirty relationship in their LARP'ing Dungeons & Dragons show have brainworms on a level I can't comprehend.

Seriously I just can't comprehend it.
Yeah that's the thing that kills me - they're married. They've definitely discussed it or know what's comfortable for the other person. It's not a fresh D&D group where you'd want to ban ic flirting bc boundaries.

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