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redbrouw
Nov 14, 2018

Nobody cared who I was until I became the cat.



Consider Veth a absolute model of what not to do in real life.

Don't kill the chief of your abductors.

Don't spend as much time as possible away from your husband and son while sending them grief money.

Don't fall in love with wizards. (v. important)

Don't leave your family as soon as you can.

Don't refuse to reroll 1s.

Don't grab rear end with friends just because you think it's funny.

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Lucas Archer
Dec 1, 2007
Falling...

seaborgium posted:

Ok, so I wasn't alone in thinking that was a bit out of place.

I mean, I suppose it's on brand for Sam, which in of itself is bothersome to me. Regardless, that kind of "joke" is so tone deaf and jarring. Sam is a funny guy. That shouldn't give him a pass on lovely attempts at humor. I kinda wish someone would call him out on that bullshit.

TotalHell
Feb 21, 2005

Roman Reigns fights CM Punk in fantasy warld. Lotsa violins, so littl kids cant red it.




That moment aside I think this was my favorite episode in a while. Everyone at the table had really good energy, they had a nice quick fight, and they did a little dungeoneering. Just seemed to me like a quality episode that I could really get into and enjoy.

seaborgium
Aug 1, 2002

"Nothing a shitload of bleach won't fix"


Lucas Archer posted:

I mean, I suppose it's on brand for Sam, which in of itself is bothersome to me. Regardless, that kind of "joke" is so tone deaf and jarring. Sam is a funny guy. That shouldn't give him a pass on lovely attempts at humor. I kinda wish someone would call him out on that bullshit.

It is on brand for him, but I was honestly expecting a Henry Crabgrass joke afterwards.

Crazy Ted
Jul 29, 2003



Lucas Archer posted:

Veth groping Fjord was kind of a lightning bolt of "ugh, not cool at all", I don't care that it didn't seem to bother the other cast members, that wasn't funny or necessary or anything.
Off-putting nature aside, I'm pretty sure it's long since been established that a cast member wouldn't do anything during the show that another cast member wouldn't be okay with. It's not like that since-cancelled D&D stream - I can't remember the name of it - where the DM surprised a player with a sexual assault.

I think that was one of those moments where it was probably fine for a home game as long as everyone's on board, but for a streaming game that can cause some issues.

Crazy Ted fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Apr 2, 2021

Trast
Oct 20, 2010

Three games, thousands of playthroughs. 90% of the players don't know I exist. Still a redhead saving the galaxy with a [Right Hook].



As a viewer I find Lucien to be the least entertaining or enjoyable villain Matt has run out so far. Most of the other parts of the campaign have been fun. But Lucien just sucks the life out of everything.

What the campaign needs is a quick resolution to anime antagonist and his city so they can go sea monster hunting or do some stuff in the dynasty again.

Crazy Ted
Jul 29, 2003



It feels like Lucien was custom-designed so that the cast couldn't bullshit their way out of an encounter with him via mentally/physically transformative magic. However, that design makes him seem like tactical bullshit personified.

Oh, so he has the anti-magic cone vision? And he can pick people up and make them bleed out of their eyes for major damage?? And he's immune to numerous status effects??? And he has Legendary Actions????

Crazy Ted fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Apr 2, 2021

eke out
Feb 24, 2013



Crazy Ted posted:

Oh, so he has the anti-magic cone vision? And he can pick people up and make them bleed out of their eyes for major damage?? And he's immune to numerous status effects??? And he has Legendary Actions????

and a full adventuring party of mixed classes lol

Crazy Ted
Jul 29, 2003



eke out posted:

and a full adventuring party of mixed classes lol
And one specific member of that adventuring party is a dick

HoboTech
Feb 13, 2005

Reading this with the voice in your skull.

I only caught the second half of the episode but I liked what I caught. I like the Veth/Yasha moment because it's good to see Ashley doing something with the character, and I like the plan they're setting up for the ambush. Most of all, I really liked the little scene with Fjord and Beau, where Beau starts to talk about bailing out if things get rough and Fjord straight up says "that's not happening, we stand and fight". I wonder how much of that moment was RP and how much of it was Travis.

edit: also I think Lucien should just pull off his skin suit and reveal himself to be a beholder

Mylan
Jun 19, 2002





For everyone getting upset about Sam's joke, it didn't come out of no where, It was a call back to a few episodes ago when they were trying to dispel Fjord's brand the first time. Liam started it with a tit slapping joke, everyone played along, and even Matt had Artagan slap Ford's pec later on.

DeathSandwich
Apr 24, 2008

I fucking hate puzzles.


Trast posted:

As a viewer I find Lucien to be the least entertaining or enjoyable villain Matt has run out so far. Most of the other parts of the campaign have been fun. But Lucien just sucks the life out of everything.

What the campaign needs is a quick resolution to anime antagonist and his city so they can go sea monster hunting or do some stuff in the dynasty again.

Yeah, that's kind of where I'm at. Lucien just isn't that compelling of a bad guy to me, especially in the last couple of episodes when you compare Lucien to like, Trent. Trent was played up from early on in the campaign that he's a hellishly powerful wizard who spends his time doing hellishly powerful things, has a personal cadre of elite blackops wizards doing blackop wizard poo poo, and acts with a cadence and demeanor or someone who could snuff you out with a wave of his hand. Lucien is bordering on near godlike powers granted to him from a cosmic entity beyond the realm who's defining feature is essentially "Madness Incarnate". You would think having such close ties to such a being would have a profound impact on your mentality and your personality, and yet to me he still has the mentality of like a gang tough The Joker except Irish and his drinking buddies.

I think part of it might have something to do with the slipshod way that Matt has been handling Lucien and the Tomb Taker's capabilities insofar as he's kind of Schrodinger's demigod. When the plot demands it he can perfectly infiltrate and assassinate an extremely powerful wizard in one of the biggest seats of her power in the region and they can make inhuman overland and overnight marches to catch up with the party who was largely flying everywhere as shortcuts. When the fog rolls in or they need to sneak across the lava river they bungle it so badly that it completely throws off their plans.

DeathSandwich fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Apr 5, 2021

Arcsech
Aug 5, 2008


I wonder if this whole Lucian arc took Matt a bit by surprise. I mean, they got the vision of the city that kicked all this off from a Divine Intervention. Would they have still ended up here at this point if that hadn’t landed? Would they have gone to find Vandren or something and had the city come crashing into reality to everyone’s surprise?

It would kind of explain the “nope, you can’t find any info via any avenue about any of this poo poo” and “Lucian is a boring, personality-less hunk of poo poo” angles.

redbrouw
Nov 14, 2018

Nobody cared who I was until I became the cat.



What kind of a Bbeg lieutenant gets lost in the snow?

Hulk Smash!
Jul 14, 2004



redbrouw posted:

What kind of a Bbeg lieutenant gets lost in the snow?

A character that from the onset was portrayed as a know it all?

I don't care for Lucien either but mostly because I think that Molly was more interesting when dead. I found it more impactful to have a PC die in a fight and stay dead than whatever he's got going on now.

redbrouw
Nov 14, 2018

Nobody cared who I was until I became the cat.



I was joking, let's all have a few Potions of Natty Light and chill.

Lucas Archer
Dec 1, 2007
Falling...

This is half-remembered information from Matt, coming from a Talks Machina episode a few weeks ago, and I don't know how many people here watch that or if they would consider it spoilers to hear about what Matt said during it, so I'll tag it just in case, but this is in regard to Lucien's impact on the campaign and possibilities if Molly hadn't died...

If I remember correctly, Matt said that Lucien was still going to be an antagonist for the M9 - except he would be chasing Molly to get his body back. That would've made this feel much more impactful and given the crew a real reason to oppose him from the very start. As it is, it feels very shoehorned in. If anyone should be really concerned about this, it's Yasha - I don't buy that this crew of assholes (seriously - the M9 are a bunch of lovely people) would emotionally connect to a person they only knew for about a month before he died, this powerfully. So much so they feel the need to chase him down in crazy reality breaking frozen country to stop his nefarious evil plans to... well, when they started, they had no idea what his plan was. More just, "oh, he has our friends body he MUST be evil so we must stop him".

Maybe this goes into my general fatigue, but this whole arc feels so emotionally unconnected.

Mylan
Jun 19, 2002





That's kinda interesting. I assumed that had Molly stuck around, Vess would have taken Lucian's current role as antagonist for this plot line.

Dexo
Aug 15, 2009

I been ballin' so damn hard I swear I think that I'm Coby


I mean, the only person who made emotional appeals was Jester(maybe a little Beau). And that's kinda her character trait. Outside of general conversation, when trying to feel out what Lucien was even planning in Aeor, and if there was anything left of Molly in there.

Everyone is there just because uhh, bad poo poo is happening right now because of Lucien, he stole their poo poo and they need to stop it. If they can save Molly instead of killing him I'm sure they would, but they are not going to let this dude just do evil poo poo up north.

Molly was a friend of theirs, but they aren't really hemming and hawing over what to do when it comes down to it. Beau and Fjord are fully prepared to kill the poo poo out of him, Veth and Caleb too.

The M9 are assholes, but like they do tend to like want to do good things. If someone is planning something obviously evil, they are going to stop it.

It doesn't particularly feel like a stretch to me that the M9 would be trying to stop Lucien.

PetraCore
Jul 20, 2017





Also it's pretty traumatic to have a friend stabbed to death in front of you, even if you weren't terribly close. Yasha is the one with the big emotional connection to Molly. Doesn't mean nobody else gave a poo poo.

Stabbey_the_Clown
Sep 21, 2002

Wanna see a demonstration of my school? It's called "Eight Leaves, One Very Big Stick"!


Taco Defender

I also kinda think that ambushing the Tomb Takers in the vertical shaft with traps and such would be the best plan. They can't do the trap after the intersection. If they let the Tomb Takers get to the ground, who knows where they'd go to. I'm glad that Jester wants to make sure that there aren't any other ways out.

Pennsylvanian
May 22, 2010


Trying to catch up and am emotionally hung up on Liam trying to get people sing a semi-obscure Rancid song with him.

Beef Jerky Robot
Sep 20, 2009

"And the DICK?"



I think Lucien sucks and I think Molly sucked

PetraCore
Jul 20, 2017





Beef Jerky Robot posted:

I think Lucien sucks and I think Molly sucked
Then it's going to feel really great when they stab Lucien a lot.

HoboTech
Feb 13, 2005

Reading this with the voice in your skull.

I'd be more than fine with the campaign going longer if they just absolutely dumpster the Tomb Takers in like 5 rounds.

Also speaking of villains, we've had NPCs in both campaigns show up that each had a plot involving the cult of Tiamat, and Matt hasn't done anything with that yet. I think that would be a pretty solid antagonist for C3.

PetraCore
Jul 20, 2017





HoboTech posted:

I'd be more than fine with the campaign going longer if they just absolutely dumpster the Tomb Takers in like 5 rounds.

Also speaking of villains, we've had NPCs in both campaigns show up that each had a plot involving the cult of Tiamat, and Matt hasn't done anything with that yet. I think that would be a pretty solid antagonist for C3.
IMO they got dumpstered the first fight bc they were completely un-loving-prepared. Which wasn't their fault, exactly, part of preparing is knowing what Lucien can do in a fight. And I specify Lucien, because the rest of the Tomb Takers seem way more standard, in that they'll be tricky, slippery fucks, but not complete unknowns.

It's not like I think it'll be a 5-round chumping this time around but they're massively more prepared in every way. They have devices that clearly outline Lucien's anti-magic cone, allowing them to avoid it and aim around it, even aiming at him if possible. They're getting ahead of the TT and setting up the terrain to their advantage. They have a powerful ally. Lucien is very powerful, but every time he's absolutely cut through people like warm butter in this arc he's had the element of surprise, from killing Vess to surprising expeditions to sneaking out when the Mighty Nein were exhausted, thus forcing the fight to be when they were off their footing, tired, and not thinking straight. And even then, while IC they were like 'aaaaaah we completely got our asses handed to us!' I sort of consider it to have been a draw, because if they really had gotten their asses kicked they couldn't have gotten away while hindering the TT.

Legitimately, I don't see this as a fight the M9 lose unless the dice are statistically improbably loving them, because now they've had time to stack the deck in their favor. It's going to be satisfying.

ZenMasterBullshit
Nov 2, 2011

Ziggy Hero!
Ziggy! Save! Everyone!



The m9 are way less assholes to one another than the C1 Crew by miles. Even in the early days. Of course they all still have ties to molly emotionally.

Hulk Smash!
Jul 14, 2004



I genuinely think that they still don't quite realize just how powerful they are as a group. They're way too timid to engage enemies sometimes. A 5 round fight is about right if they play to their strengths. Of course, half of them are still unsure of the rules of their class/the game, so...

Beef Jerky Robot posted:

I think Lucien sucks and I think Molly sucked

eke out
Feb 24, 2013



PetraCore posted:

Legitimately, I don't see this as a fight the M9 lose unless the dice are statistically improbably loving them, because now they've had time to stack the deck in their favor. It's going to be satisfying.

the reason it's loseable is that it's a Big Deal fight so plot dictates some escalation must happen, i'm guessing This Isn't Even Lucien's Final Form

PetraCore
Jul 20, 2017





I think this arc would have been really interesting as a slow burn with Molly as a PC, but I am glad for Cad and glad to still get the cool lore on Aeor.

Epi Lepi
Oct 29, 2009

You can hear the voice
Telling you to Love
It's the voice of MK Ultra
And you're doing what it wants


I'm one of those who miss Molly a lot, but also I love Cad so it's almost worth it. I think the pacing has kind of dragged since COVID started but I'm looking forward to the resolution to the Lucien arc.

PetraCore
Jul 20, 2017





Can you guys imagine if Molly had come in in C1, making fun of Percy after Percy's hypothetical perma-death as Taliesin intended? That would have been quite a reaction from everyone else.

Pennsylvanian
May 22, 2010


DeathSandwich posted:

Yeah, that's kind of where I'm at. Lucien just isn't that compelling of a bad guy to me,

The one thing that can't get me into Lucien is that the lore around him and the Nonagon and the floating city is just so dense and ridiculously high fantasy. I want him to die just so I don't feel weird about not knowing what's going on.

Hulk Smash! posted:

I genuinely think that they still don't quite realize just how powerful they are as a group. They're way too timid to engage enemies sometimes. A 5 round fight is about right if they play to their strengths. Of course, half of them are still unsure of the rules of their class/the game, so...



They were pretty tapped going into the Lucien fight, but they also just seem to be reticent to just have some killing DnD fights for quite a while now. They also got into a pretty heavy routine of getting a long rest every time they stubbed a toe. I have a feeling that Matt upping the pressure from his antagonists is an acknowledgement of the slow pacing.

Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!



I don't think it's that dense. Wizards made a pocket dimension city, they're up to some weird poo poo, now they want to come back.

Stabbey_the_Clown
Sep 21, 2002

Wanna see a demonstration of my school? It's called "Eight Leaves, One Very Big Stick"!


Taco Defender

I don't know if this plan would work, but I like the idea of putting the symbol of pain up in the shaft, and the Intuit charge directly at the bottom of the shaft, with the idea being that the symbol will zap one, maybe even two people on the way down, they'll hopefully fail their dex save and fall, and enter the 60-foot trigger radius of the charge, triggering it, which will detonate and send the wave all the way up the shaft.

I think that to take advantage of that, though, the M9 will need to be at the entrance of the corridor inside Caleb's dome. That's the only real way to protect themselves from the damage of the intuit charge and still be close enough to take advantage of the attack.

The plan is not without flaws though.
- First, I'm only assuming I'm also assuming that Lucian doesn't have 200 feet of truesight to see the Intuit charge at the bottom of the shaft. I think that's a reasonable assumption, although I don't know how bright the thing glows. I would assume probably not that bright because it's supposed to be a trap.
- Second, if the person going down first has a good DEX save, they might not fall at all. Oh wait, they'd need to beat the CON save as well to avoid incapacitation and auto-failing the DEX save. But there's still a chance they could pass both, and then the TT would be on their guard for the trip down.
- Thirdly, I'm just assuming that the dome will protect against the charge detonation.
- Fourthly, there are still going to be 11 minutes of vulnerability every 8 hours where the dome is being re-cast, and if the TT "coincidentally" descend during those 11 minutes, the M9 won't be protected from the charge and will have to run away or take a big hit. That depends on how tempted Mercer is to use his meta knowledge of the M9's plans to "just so happen" to tailor the TT's approach in a way that mitigates the plan.


However, the detonation rage of 60 feet is very helpful, because I don't know if the TT have any way of seeing it or getting in range to dispel it before getting into detonation range.

Hulk Smash!
Jul 14, 2004



Stabbey_the_Clown posted:

I don't know if this plan would work, but I like the idea of putting the symbol of pain up in the shaft, and the Intuit charge directly at the bottom of the shaft, with the idea being that the symbol will zap one, maybe even two people on the way down, they'll hopefully fail their dex save and fall, and enter the 60-foot trigger radius of the charge, triggering it, which will detonate and send the wave all the way up the shaft.

I think that to take advantage of that, though, the M9 will need to be at the entrance of the corridor inside Caleb's dome. That's the only real way to protect themselves from the damage of the intuit charge and still be close enough to take advantage of the attack.

The plan is not without flaws though.
- First, I'm only assuming I'm also assuming that Lucian doesn't have 200 feet of truesight to see the Intuit charge at the bottom of the shaft. I think that's a reasonable assumption, although I don't know how bright the thing glows. I would assume probably not that bright because it's supposed to be a trap.
- Second, if the person going down first has a good DEX save, they might not fall at all. Oh wait, they'd need to beat the CON save as well to avoid incapacitation and auto-failing the DEX save. But there's still a chance they could pass both, and then the TT would be on their guard for the trip down.
- Thirdly, I'm just assuming that the dome will protect against the charge detonation.
- Fourthly, there are still going to be 11 minutes of vulnerability every 8 hours where the dome is being re-cast, and if the TT "coincidentally" descend during those 11 minutes, the M9 won't be protected from the charge and will have to run away or take a big hit. That depends on how tempted Mercer is to use his meta knowledge of the M9's plans to "just so happen" to tailor the TT's approach in a way that mitigates the plan.


However, the detonation rage of 60 feet is very helpful, because I don't know if the TT have any way of seeing it or getting in range to dispel it before getting into detonation range.
Laura snicker dot wav

DeathSandwich
Apr 24, 2008

I fucking hate puzzles.


Pennsylvanian posted:

The one thing that can't get me into Lucien is that the lore around him and the Nonagon and the floating city is just so dense and ridiculously high fantasy. I want him to die just so I don't feel weird about not knowing what's going on.


They were pretty tapped going into the Lucien fight, but they also just seem to be reticent to just have some killing DnD fights for quite a while now. They also got into a pretty heavy routine of getting a long rest every time they stubbed a toe. I have a feeling that Matt upping the pressure from his antagonists is an acknowledgement of the slow pacing.

The thing they are trying to stop is a chunk of an ancient sky city. The interdimensional part of it was like a defense mechanism that went haywire (or was maybe purposely sabotaged when poo poo started going fucky back in the day) and the people who were shunted to the astral plane over the generations became either a cthulu-esque cosmic horror or a Fantasy Borg that assimilates your uniqueness into its own.

Trast
Oct 20, 2010

Three games, thousands of playthroughs. 90% of the players don't know I exist. Still a redhead saving the galaxy with a [Right Hook].



Molly may have had his fans. But Cad being introduced was a catalyst for a lot of good things to happen to the band of misfit assholes that is the M9. In addition to the roleplay stuff it freed up Laura to play Jester in a way that suited her much better than being the heal bot. This campaign would be lessened without Laura's mad genius.

tsob
Sep 26, 2006

Chalalala~


Hasn't Laura done more healing since Cad joined? Or at least been more gracious about it, and willing to commit to healing as a function in general than before Cad came around? When she pulled out the handaxe a few episodes ago it was pretty shocking, because I'd forgotten she even had that thing. She doesn't use her spiritual weapon nearly as much nowadays either. Sure, part of that is the wealth of choice, but she's far happier to heal or hang back and do support than she used to be too.

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redbrouw
Nov 14, 2018

Nobody cared who I was until I became the cat.



I really hope that at some point they can get a guest in. Going over old episodes you can feel the momentum whenever they had someone else to perform for.

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