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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:No. The bridge people were on basic. No they weren't They were the people who didn't want to be on basic.
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Dec 13, 2018 07:55
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imagine how it must be for those people who for whatever reason are unemployed and can't get Basic. what would they have to do to survive? ask ..................Amos................
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Dec 13, 2018 09:16
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:I think mention is made in The Churn or Caliban's War that all that is very limited when you're on Basic. Like, you get enough to not die but really enough to live on. There are waitlists on healthcare, and you have to live where they tell you, but Basic-style food, clothing, etc. is freely available from vending machines, as the stuff has no resale value.
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Dec 13, 2018 11:38
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The thing with Basic isn't that it is physically awful, it's that once you are on the system the AI or whatever is always monitoring you. So if you want to do anything even slightly productive then woah there buddy that's not signed off, what's your tax code, oh you have never owned currency in your life eh? trying to dodge the law and steal work from people who earned it? So by accepting Basic you are cutting yourself off from the grey economy which is 95% of people's only opportunity to feel active or valued, or get beyond 'one Starbucks a month' style luxury rationing. And naturally if you want to be an actual criminal then you need to stay far far away from the UN databases.
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Dec 13, 2018 11:56
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Yeah, it's basic assistance not a universal basic income. So, you can get, like, 1600 calories of nutrient paste from vending machines and once a week get some scrubs made of recycled paper from another vending machine, and if you get critically ill you can see a doctor (hope you like waiting lists!), but it doesn't give you any purpose or enough stuff that you could achieve some kind fulfillment. Lots of people fall through the cracks, some avoid the system entirely, some are entirely unregistered (birth is monitored by the UN for population control, iirc) and actively avoid the government in the second-class, criminal underworld. Many of those 30 billion (Doctor Bridge Guy and others) are more than qualified to get good work, but they lack the connections to get on the work lists.
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Dec 13, 2018 17:10
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regardless of semantics, that's what you'll get under a democracy that still allows for capitalism.
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Dec 13, 2018 17:22
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Serf posted:regardless of semantics, that's what you'll get under a democracy that still allows for capitalism. I don't know, giving away stuff for free to stop people from rising up and overthrowing the government doesn't really feed the capitalist engine in the same way that universal basic income would. All the companies selling poo poo to idiots are bankrupt in this future I guess because 95% of people never buy anything and lets face it that's basically most companies. Chalks fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Dec 13, 2018 |
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Dec 13, 2018 17:58
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The whole concept of basic in these books would not work in any mixed market economy.
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Dec 13, 2018 18:22
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Collateral posted:The whole concept of basic in these books would not work in any mixed market economy. I guess that is kind of my point. Can you call it a market economy when most people are 100% frozen out of the market because they are not allowed to work and cannot legally own a dollar? I mean however bad things get in the West today, at least in theory you could upcycle trash and sell it. If the UN was meeting your basic needs, at least it would be something to do. But in the Expanse apparently you can't, because the UN won't even drip feed some cash into the system or allow you to barter.
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Dec 13, 2018 19:29
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Collateral posted:The whole concept of basic in these books would not work in any mixed market economy. You could argue that it doesn't really work
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Dec 14, 2018 00:00
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Rocksicles posted:You could argue that it doesn't really work Neither would spinning up Ceres and Eros or whatever protomolecule bullshit is, but that shouldn't stop you from enjoying the show
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Dec 14, 2018 01:01
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The UN/Earth is like the ultimate form of neoliberalism: corporations own almost all wealth, labor is almost entirely automated so all wealth concentrates near entirely to the corporation, and the state's role has withered to the point where their sole purposes are to protect corporate interests and suppress/bread and circuses the majority of the population. There's pretty much a dual economy. Capitalism for the rich and basic for everyone else.
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Dec 14, 2018 02:18
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It's hyper-capitalism, with most people given the option to be second-class citizens in return for never being allowed to participate in the economy or own capital.
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Dec 14, 2018 03:43
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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:It's hyper-capitalism, with most people given the option to be second-class citizens in return for never being allowed to participate in the economy or own capital. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rxag32cxwsY
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Dec 14, 2018 03:51
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I'm just a huge nerd but I couldn't care less about the gates and other star systems and proto-poo poo. I want a deep dive in the socio-economics of the system and the show to focus on a pan-system workers uprising.
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Dec 14, 2018 04:51
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Baronjutter posted:I'm just a huge nerd but I couldn't care less about the gates and other star systems and proto-poo poo. I want a deep dive in the socio-economics of the system and the show to focus on a pan-system workers uprising. Doesn't seem like it would work in a universe where space stations exist. Talking literal nuke it from orbit approach to problem solving.
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Dec 14, 2018 05:12
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https://twitter.com/Breck_Eisner/status/1073372336018112512
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Dec 14, 2018 05:15
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Holden wishes he was Cap. My problem is who Mao and other mega rich people are getting their money from? If almost everyone is living off Basic, they have zero income to spend on even the basics, so who's buying their poo poo? I guess the government would pay Mao for stuff, but where are they getting their money? They're not taxing people either through income or sales tax.
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Dec 14, 2018 05:22
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They've only specified that "over half" of the UN population is on Basic, and half would be 15.5 billion so there's still plenty of people with actual jobs and money. There aren't nearly enough jobs for 31 billion people but there are still billions who are employed.
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Dec 14, 2018 05:26
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twistedmentat posted:Holden wishes he was Cap. Big corporations would prefer to just sell to other big corporations.
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Dec 14, 2018 05:26
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yall are buying martian propaganda hook line and sinker itt
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Dec 14, 2018 07:26
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Baloogan posted:yall are buying martian propaganda hook line and sinker itt death to all inners   
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Dec 14, 2018 07:34
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twistedmentat posted:Holden wishes he was Cap. Yeah, the whole basic thing seems like a recipe for economic stagnation and collapse. The government has to fund the handouts through tax, but they have nobody to tax and businesses have nobody to sell to.
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Dec 14, 2018 10:56
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drewhead posted:I find that to be a weak argument. Because a thing can be exploited by some does not necessarily negate it's original purpose. Automation isn't inherently the bad thing. The people using it to screw over workers are. If automation were used in a purpose to free up labor for other productivity then the capitalist does make more profit as it is a net gain in labor (pending pricing). Great. This means you agree with the Luddites that actually existed and not with the charicature they are usually portrayed as.
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Dec 14, 2018 11:20
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Chalks posted:Yeah, the whole basic thing seems like a recipe for economic stagnation and collapse. Did you not notice how hosed the UN Navy is? Go back and look at some of the interior sets for their ships, everything looks old and scuffed and worn out.
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Dec 14, 2018 11:50
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Sometimes you have to shoot a few bankers if you need to truly get something done.
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Dec 14, 2018 12:08
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Belter society is a self interested merchant guild of the technocratic elite. They are all fusion engineers and gravitational physicists and navigators. They can take care of themselves  whats bone disease
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Dec 14, 2018 12:45
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Hard to believe they wouldn't have solved boneitis for over 600 years(?) after the show's set.
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Dec 15, 2018 12:59
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They have solved it. A lot of Belters just can't loving pay for it.
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Dec 15, 2018 13:27
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Sorry my last reply was from a phone. What I meant to say is that an economy is a cyclical system, it either retains, increases or loses value, depending where it is on the cycle. Having a parallel economy that removes value (basic) from the main economy while being banned from participating (contributing) would cause both economies to collapse swiftly. The government would have to ensure that it's inputs into the normal economy where exactly the same amount as is removed by the basic system, at the very least. Or you could just allow those people to participate in the normal economy, like we have now. The basic system would be a parasite and no sane economist (I won't say sane politician, because of what we have right now) would allow it to exist in the form the books and show present it as. Even if they tried, collapse would follow.
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Dec 15, 2018 13:41
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tooterfish posted:They have solved it. A lot of Belters just can't loving pay for it. Too busy being 80s guys.
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Dec 15, 2018 15:44
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tooterfish posted:They have solved it. A lot of Belters just can't loving pay for it. Well, solved-ish. The treatments work okay for most people but not everyone, and the treatments are apparently pretty unpleasant.
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Dec 15, 2018 17:34
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Maybe if they actually all lived in properly built "spin stations" at 1g and weren't so married to their insane idea of spun-up asteroids that barely get the job done they'd be healthier.
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Dec 15, 2018 20:25
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Baronjutter posted:Maybe if they actually all lived in properly built "spin stations" at 1g and weren't so married to their insane idea of spun-up asteroids that barely get the job done they'd be healthier. Check you inner privilege! But yes I do find it a little odd that stations like Tycho aren't the more common thing.
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Dec 15, 2018 21:54
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Maybe it's more expensive to live in good places and less expensive to live in poo poo places
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Dec 15, 2018 22:15
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I'm pretty sure Tycho spins at 0.3g like Ceres and pretty much every other spinning station. The Belters with the more extreme physiological differences are the ones who live on non-spinning stations like Pallas and the ones who spend most of their lives in a ship.
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Dec 15, 2018 22:15
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Chalks posted:Yeah, the whole basic thing seems like a recipe for economic stagnation and collapse. The government has to fund the handouts through tax, but they have nobody to tax and businesses have nobody to sell to. That's the whole point of the first trilogy, no? That things are stagnant and rveryone is gonna tear themselves apart to keep things the same?
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Dec 15, 2018 22:50
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Collateral posted:
You're right, we should kill all the poor to maintain profits
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Dec 15, 2018 22:52
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Phi230 posted:That's the whole point of the first trilogy, no? That things are stagnant and rveryone is gonna tear themselves apart to keep things the same?
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Dec 15, 2018 23:11
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Toast Museum posted:I'm pretty sure Tycho spins at 0.3g like Ceres and pretty much every other spinning station. The Belters with the more extreme physiological differences are the ones who live on non-spinning stations like Pallas and the ones who spend most of their lives in a ship. 0.3 is the agreed upon standard gravity in space, yeah. Everything spins at that and 0.3g is the standard cruise acceleration. It's comfortable for everyone more or less.
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Dec 16, 2018 04:50
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