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I give WHC a go every so often with the sweet V1 outfit and he isn’t terrible, but he is so blatantly outshined by Zealot and BH.
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May 21, 2018 19:30
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NightshadeGenitals posted:I give WHC a go every so often with the sweet V1 outfit and he isn’t terrible, but he is so blatantly outshined by Zealot and BH. Every time I play Saltz, I'm tempted to try WHC again. And then my eyes just sort of drift over to the Zealot icon, and welp....
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May 21, 2018 19:33
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the WHC handles the worst of the poo poo jobs so everyone else can be amazing at their specialty. that horde trying to flank around while the dwarf is playing witch king with the main wave? WHC's job. the sneaky special trying to grab your boss sniper? WHC's job. the elite in the wandering party that is about to make your foot knight's life hell? WHC's job. holding a boss's attention so everyone else can catch a breath and hammer it? WHC's job. he handles these tasks while passively making everyone else better by simply existing. extra crits every time something taggable dies sounds lovely until you realize that's up like 75% of the time during heavy fights. lots of breakpoints can get hit with the tagging ability, especially on legend, and tagging bosses means that a boss spends 20% less time alive. the .8 patch really benefitted the WHC, too. the more consistent basics make it easier to anticipate and control a fight, and the damage packet uncap made it so the rapier's overcharge attack suddenly one hit quits stormvermin on champion if you land a headshot, which it didn't do before despite hitting the numbers on the dummy. being able to be so flexible means that you increase the success rate of a party a lot just because you can fill anything in a pinch, too. hagbane elves can leave a gap in elite sniping on champion and legend - the WHC can kill/wound these targets enough to make them hagbane bait with either crossbow. public players doing what they do and preferring ranged, you can end up with a melee deficiency on the team - the WHC can mix it up much better since the patch, especially with the rapier and especially against skaven. i feel like the WHC has always had a great role on the team, and what's more, it had a great role on ANY team, not just ones that were lacking X. shade feels really underwhelming on a team that already has a Huntsman or Pyro, for example, because the two are jockeying to do their jobs. WHC is never unwelcome, but it was so inconsistent due to the game's general bustedness that he was just never worth bringing until 1.0.8 fixed a ton of underlying poo poo that was keeping it from performing. kruber's mercenary career was also helped for much the same fundamental reasons, but what he does is both less consistent and less helpful than "doing extra damage to everything you care about, and being rewarded with more crits because you killed something you care about." i definitely disagree that BH and Zealot outshine WHC because of the general flexibility. BH is super nice but the volley is now wholly outshined by the real boss killers for spike damage and the hagbane/conflag for horde control. you basically want to bring the recurve and the guaranteed crits mean you can fire forever with it and consistently kill a few things you couldn't before (mostly chaos maulers) but the overall tradeoff is difficult to justify. losing out on +20% dodge distance hurts for fencing, and free light blocks from the front is huge for resisting a blademill. then there's the persistent evidence that it just plain takes a lot more damage than it ought to. zealot works fantastic in a melee, and uses the recurve great, but holy hell his active is atrocious without the ability to terminate it early. a WHC with swift slaying on his melee will ape the zealot without the incredibly dangerous and disorienting charge. and not being able to buff the team literally dozens of times by simply existing is also something you notice after playing a half-dozen games as WHC. Coolguye fucked around with this message at 19:52 on May 21, 2018 |
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May 21, 2018 19:43
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You don’t have to complete the charge though? Just go far enough you closed the gap, block cancel, then go ham. I know everyone perceives things differently but I don’t find the repentinator effect disorienting at all unless I charged into a wall and he does a mini-freakout that cripples you for half a sec. Protip: Don’t run into walls. All good points on cap though and BH is just bleh to play for me. I do appreciate a good one in the team.
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May 21, 2018 20:23
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NightshadeGenitals posted:You don’t have to complete the charge though? Just go far enough you closed the gap, block cancel, then go ham. Yeah you can cancel charge but it's extremely bugging. You basically have to not be doing anyhting when using the charge (i.e. not blocking) then hit block. Still kind of a crapshoot when it cancels. But I'm a Zealot man, flailing never gets old and can work great in Legend just to wipe out a Shield Patrol when poo poo goes tits up. But again may not need him for your composition depending what it is.
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May 21, 2018 20:31
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SuperKlaus posted:Does it feel like the changes to special spawn rules / density they put in place at 1.05 or whenever have been reverted or am I off base? My group's losing run after run and starting to get a bit mad because every loss feels like it's 4x disabler specials during a horde with some elite cherries on top. Except the ones that are "horde spawns same time as boss, still got those cherries," and I thought some earlier patch changed the rules for poo poo piling on during boss spawns. I don't notice special spawn rules being particular bad, I mean they can gently caress you but I typically don't notice more than 3, and no more than 2 of any given type. They can respawn fast sometimes tho. Density is super bad now though. That said, once you realize what the issue is you can work to really break it to bring the advantage back on your side, ways to do this include liberal use of pushes and Shield+X is great for this becase you can keep stagging and shield-bashing for days which causes them to no longer hyperdensifiy, and has great push angle. Similar, Conflag does wonders to break it up. You basically don't want to be right under a place where they jump down as they'll all hyperdensify inside your hitbox and you will be turbo-hosed
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May 21, 2018 20:34
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the response i got out of the developer in the modding discord when i asked about the inconsistency with canceling the zealot's charge was 'you can cancel it?' lel
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May 21, 2018 20:38
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My zealot trick is to just charge into a nearby wall at as close to a 90° degree angle as possible. Usually I don't end up surrounded by enemies. Usually.
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May 21, 2018 20:38
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Phlegmish posted:My zealot trick is to just charge into a nearby wall at as close to a 90° degree angle as possible. Usually I don't end up surrounded by enemies. Usually. Speaking of which, Resourceful Combatant is not 2% CDR Per Crit per Enemy hit. I'm convinced it's a fixed amount like -2s and doesn't necessary work from critting on multiple enemies (unlike Scrounger). It's pretty terrible for long CD ultis like Merc Krub and could be useful for shorter ones but then if they're short enough might as well just run Swift-Slaying. Xaris fucked around with this message at 20:48 on May 21, 2018 |
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May 21, 2018 20:46
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my recommendation is to put swift slaying on your melee weapon and use the crit chance buff to trigger it on WHC. it's not a 100% guarantee, but between the heavy knockdown of jerks around you providing an opening and the large bonus that Animosity gives you, you're likely to get more of a bonus out of Animosity + Swift Slaying than you are out of the zealot charge.
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May 21, 2018 20:48
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They really just kinda need to rework traits entirety: Swift Slaying is good if all your weapon cares about is going 'kill faster, Mayflies'. Resourceful Combatant seems like it could be good for some builds but it blatantly doesn't do what the tooltip claims and generally we have only the vaguest sense of what it actually does. Then everything else is either incredibly niche or outright nonfunctional.
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May 21, 2018 20:54
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parry is super sweet on unchained because of her synergy with blocking. you can dump shitloads of heat by blocking an elite's big attack, but with parry you lose no stamina while doing so. pretty sure this fits squarely into the definition of 'niche' tho
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May 21, 2018 20:57
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Voyager I posted:They really just kinda need to rework traits entirety: fatshark monkeypaw: swift sslaying is now +5% attackspeed for 2 seconds, and also now mysteriously only works if the crit doesn't kill an enemy and is a backstab
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May 21, 2018 21:00
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I am increasingly disappointed with just how little of a difference the changes to unchained have made. At first I was excited since I don't have to walk on eggshells, but there is absolutely no way to truly push these benefits to the limit. Her weapon design continuously limits her potential regardless of how much melee damage you store up. I'm actually pretty upset about this. I don't want to play pyro, and everyone already hogs the other characters I like. Hosting on my somewhat sub par machine is a certain recipie for failure as well. It looks fine on my end, but I can't help feeling people die so much because something janky happens on theirs. Being forced to host to play what I like will just end with failed runs on Legend.
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May 21, 2018 21:06
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Coolguye posted:parry is super sweet on unchained because of her synergy with blocking. you can dump shitloads of heat by blocking an elite's big attack, but with parry you lose no stamina while doing so. My issues with parry are as follows: a) I don't trust it. The game struggles to have basic mechanics function consistently, so I do not want to play block chicken with a mauler's overhead over a connection of varying latency. b) It doesn't help in the situations where you really need it. If I'm getting pressed by enough enemies that I'm at risk of stamina depletion I'm not really expecting to be in a situation where I will be able to individually parry their attacks, and if I'm not being overwhelmed I don't really care about spending all my stamina to block an overhead. I guess it could be nice on a Halberd or something to let you block Cwarrior attacks without losing all your stamina bars for head chopping, but that still leaves the issue of playing extremely high-risk timing games over an online connection.
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May 21, 2018 21:08
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the window for parry working is surprisingly forgiving. i don't have specific numbers, but if it's within a second or two of the blow landing, it'll trigger. i certainly can't begrudge anyone not wanting to take chances with an elite's overhead but for those that like to hook up with strangers without using condoms, at the absolute least it isn't a dark souls parry.
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May 21, 2018 21:28
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Indeed, parry actually works now, and high heat parrying on unchained means no block damage even on crazy rot helm overheads. Which you can't capitalize on anyway cause there is no mechanic for capitalizing on it, and the block cost reduction for parrying isn't meaningful enough in any other context. In practical terms, it's just normal blocking.
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May 21, 2018 21:40
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Fuuka Ayase posted:I am increasingly disappointed with just how little of a difference the changes to unchained have made. At first I was excited since I don't have to walk on eggshells, but there is absolutely no way to truly push these benefits to the limit. Her weapon design continuously limits her potential regardless of how much melee damage you store up. I'm actually pretty upset about this. I don't want to play pyro, and everyone already hogs the other characters I like. Hosting on my somewhat sub par machine is a certain recipie for failure as well. It looks fine on my end, but I can't help feeling people die so much because something janky happens on theirs. Being forced to host to play what I like will just end with failed runs on Legend. It would be nice to have her own unique-to-her reskinned-Flail, which albeit would stomp on Zealot's toes, but would fit perfectly for her playstyle. Or dual maces with a combo that goes swipe-swipe-bop (or some form of it) with charged overheads/push-stab overheads. And of course some buffs to Fire Sword would be nice but I get they don't want to give Pyro good melee weapons, so as long as something is unique to her it'd be fine. Fundamentally DOT on Melee is superbad so I suspect Fire Sword will never be good.
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May 21, 2018 21:53
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WHC and Mercenary are slowly working into my good graces for all the reasons that've been covered now that both are mostly working, near as anyone can tell. Merc in particular can clutch some situations that'd otherwise be a wipe, and even hyperdense chaos stacks have trouble staying burly in the face of an Executioner's Sword properly aimed. Merc's passive and Swift Slaying both go a long way to ameliorating the slowass swing speed and maintain a healthy buffer of temp health. I'm finally overcoming Slayer Anxiety too (Dual Axes: they're good) and its okay but you're putting a lot of faith in other folks leaving the horde to the hyperactive screaming dwarf and keeping an eye out for specials. That's a big ol' Ask of internet people who are absolutely certain that a ticklebeam or swift bow on a horde-line in stasis is really what's gonna take the run over the top. e; another component of Slayer strategy seems to be "don't be unlucky and get QP'd into Halescourge. That's certainly a thing. Willie Tomg fucked around with this message at 23:02 on May 21, 2018 |
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May 21, 2018 21:55
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Xaris posted:Yeah it went along way to making her more Legend viable because before you had no recourse if lag/random backstab causes you to instant-pop into overheat which supersucked, so you can play more aggressive which is cool. But her melee are all real bad and killing shitrats is easy enough that that's never the issue, being able to take on all the SV/Chaos/Shield-SV while also fighting off a horde is usually more pressing. I’ve wanted a fire whip/fire chain for her ever since I saw the unchained concept art. Ghost ride the witch.
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May 21, 2018 22:17
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I played unchained w/ mace/beam staff on legend and it was fine, mace kills heavy enemies well at high heat and beam staff can deal with everything else
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May 21, 2018 22:18
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What's the most effective way to play rapier? I get that in theory you're supposed to be high mobility plus all the charged melee head shots, and obviously unlimited pistol shots adds some incredible utility, but I feel completely gutless against hoards because the default rapier swings are garbage. Should I just not even be attempting to engage them and focusing on special/elite kills? Or do I just need to git gud? I mostly play zealot + mace but I've been messing around with WH since the patch dropped for variety's sake.
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May 21, 2018 22:27
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Sydin posted:What's the most effective way to play rapier? I get that in theory you're supposed to be high mobility plus all the charged melee head shots, and obviously unlimited pistol shots adds some incredible utility, but I feel completely gutless against hoards because the default rapier swings are garbage. Should I just not even be attempting to engage them and focusing on special/elite kills? Or do I just need to git gud? 1. never not be side dodging 2. click fast, click heads. rapier has a huge headshot bonus even with light attacks and nearly no sweep. 3. pistol is not bad for clearing adds in front of you, but if you're BH, you shouldn't be wasting blessed shots with it. ADS with the repeater crossbow instead, it'll oneshot stormvermin and maulers, clear out a whole lot of trash and give you back 6 ammo with scrounger. it's fun if you get used to it, but it does have less horde utility than falchion or flail.
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May 21, 2018 22:41
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I accidentally salvaged a red, oops. Fortunately it was a two-handed sword, which I wasn't planning on using anyway. I haven't yet found a red weapon that I would actually use on any of my characters.
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May 21, 2018 22:44
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Sydin posted:What's the most effective way to play rapier? I get that in theory you're supposed to be high mobility plus all the charged melee head shots, and obviously unlimited pistol shots adds some incredible utility, but I feel completely gutless against hoards because the default rapier swings are garbage. Should I just not even be attempting to engage them and focusing on special/elite kills? Or do I just need to git gud? Rapier is all about headshots on both light and charged attacks. Its light attacks are fast and consistent diagonal swipes, they do a number on slave rats or the light chaos guys. Charge attacks are for anything else, poke 'em right in the eye. Take advantage of WHC's free block on light attacks if you need to reposition. Rapier works best on the edges of hordes, so dodge as needed and leave wading in to the 2-handers. The pistol shot is nice for a free almost shove from a distance, and can be lethal on light target headshots when you're just outside of melee range.
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May 21, 2018 22:44
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Cool, thanks. I'm really bad about dodging so I'll stick with rapier to get some practice. Also didn't realize the light attack did that much bonus headshot damage, I'll stop selling out for charged shots so much. Is repeater crossbow still the go to ranged choice post-patch? I thought I read it got nerfed fairly significantly.
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May 21, 2018 22:48
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Sydin posted:Cool, thanks. I'm really bad about dodging so I'll stick with rapier to get some practice. Also didn't realize the light attack did that much bonus headshot damage, I'll stop selling out for charged shots so much. I still clean up with it just fine, and there's really no other option for an infinite ammo BH build. Dunno what they changed, but I haven't really noticed anything.
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May 21, 2018 22:52
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Phlegmish posted:I accidentally salvaged a red, oops. Fortunately it was a two-handed sword, which I wasn't planning on using anyway. I haven't yet found a red weapon that I would actually use on any of my characters. I haven't seen a single red in 140+ hours 
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May 21, 2018 22:53
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I would kill for a red flail, my +4.8% Attack Speed/+4.0% Crit Chance orange is taunting me by being less than perfect. e: I want a red trinket, too. I already have three red charms, please stop
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May 21, 2018 22:55
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Sydin posted:What's the most effective way to play rapier? I get that in theory you're supposed to be high mobility plus all the charged melee head shots, and obviously unlimited pistol shots adds some incredible utility, but I feel completely gutless against hoards because the default rapier swings are garbage. Should I just not even be attempting to engage them and focusing on special/elite kills? Or do I just need to git gud? the light attacks are for slave rats, clan rats, and chaos fanatics. you want to aim your cursor slightly over their head so victor is more likely to swish the weapon over their faces, which will give you headshot damage. chaos marauders you can light attack spam, but it is frequently more efficient to use charged thrusts to stab them in the face and filter them out. but, there's no problem swishing at them if they're mixed in and you just need them to recoil/leave you alone. you can also swish to follow up a thrust where you ended up hitting their body instead of their head - they tend to only just survive that. the secret sauces against hordes are the side dodge and the riposte/push-stab. the rapier's riposte is lighting quick even by riposte standards, and comes down at a head seeker angle that will leave an impression on most chaff. use that FREQUENTLY, like, every 3 seconds or so, to create openings that you can push forward into. then dodge backward as the horde gets up and starts to come at you again. side dashing around a chunk of dudes if you have the space is also great for getting at a horde and swishing at them until they reorient themselves at you. there unfortunately is a certain level of git gud because precisely when to attack, parry, and riposte is a rhythm that's hard to put into words. i'm certainly not flawless at it by any stretch, so perhaps it's best i don't try. but it's really not too onerous to blend a crowd down with the rapier if you stick and move - the +20% dodge talent WHC has helps a ton. the pistol actually does about as much damage as a charged attack up to about twice the range of the charged attack's thrust. it drops off VERY rapidly from there, though, you'd be forgiven for never using it because in almost all situations if you're that close you should just hit the enemy. the exception comes with bosses. rapier, and specifically WHC rapier, is great for trolling bosses around because victor is so mobile with it, but unlike basically any other finesse weapon he can also continue to damage the boss to keep it interested in him. whereas most classes need to wade in to whack the boss, and therefore put themselves at risk of an unblockable counterattack, victor can use his pistol and stay safe. this is also incredibly helpful if you need to thin out enemies while running away from a boss or group of elites. look at it as a way to keep doing a little damage while you're fully evasive.
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May 21, 2018 22:56
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Phlegmish posted:I would kill for a red flail, my +4.8% Attack Speed/+4.0% Crit Chance orange is taunting me by being less than perfect. necklaces are teh worst because theres literally no option but 2 stam/20 health. would kill for a trinket/weapon (other than the single red falchion which is useless now)
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May 21, 2018 22:58
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That's exactly what I've done, now I need that red trinket so I can I get 33% Curse Resistance/5% Crit Chance and put it on all of my characters for all of eternity.
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May 21, 2018 23:00
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Alright, so. I've been really comfortable with the BH and done pretty well with it on Champion with the rapier and had been pairing it with either scrounger brace or a volleybow. I'm interested in trying out this WHC thing. Rapier and scrounger brace still a good choice of weapons? Generally the same style of dancing around the fringes aiming for headshots and brace to either unload into bosses or to pick off close/midrange specials? I also haven't figured out really when to yell. The cooldown is so long that I can't do it most fights like I can use the BH's execution. Last question: does swift slaying proc an effect that will be visible in the lower left? I've had it on my rapier for awhile now and don't think I've ever seen it. e: Duration or recharge on WHC's yell? Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 00:19 on May 22, 2018 |
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May 22, 2018 00:16
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Fuuka Ayase posted:I am increasingly disappointed with just how little of a difference the changes to unchained have made. At first I was excited since I don't have to walk on eggshells, but there is absolutely no way to truly push these benefits to the limit. Her weapon design continuously limits her potential regardless of how much melee damage you store up. I'm actually pretty upset about this. I don't want to play pyro, and everyone already hogs the other characters I like. Hosting on my somewhat sub par machine is a certain recipie for failure as well. It looks fine on my end, but I can't help feeling people die so much because something janky happens on theirs. Being forced to host to play what I like will just end with failed runs on Legend. I don't understand the hate for sienna's melee options, pyro has absurd attack speed and crit bonuses, two things that go together like peanut butter and jelly, unchained has all of the damage which is good if you weren't meeting certain thresholds on pyro's hit to kill ratio. Plus the mace is incredibly fun with good anti horde with the light swings and you don't have to start up any 2-3 hit combos before reaching the head bops, you just bop > block > bop until the chaos warrior falls over dead, if your unchained, then it falls over dead in a couple hits. Run the beam staff on unchained, pop shotgun blasts off or snipe specials until your in red heat and then go kill stormvermin in 1 light attack bop on the head, pop ult as necessary, run resourceful combatant on melee and/or ranged for a shorter vulnerable window.
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May 22, 2018 00:23
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Ravenfood posted:Alright, so. I've been really comfortable with the BH and done pretty well with it on Champion with the rapier and had been pairing it with either scrounger brace or a volleybow. I'm interested in trying out this WHC thing. Rapier and scrounger brace still a good choice of weapons? Generally the same style of dancing around the fringes aiming for headshots and brace to either unload into bosses or to pick off close/midrange specials? I also haven't figured out really when to yell. The cooldown is so long that I can't do it most fights like I can use the BH's execution. swift slaying doesn't have an effect icon for whatever reason. i use a recurve crossbow with WHC instead of the brace but the brace is fine. yellling is for when there's a boss around or when you've just crashed into a horde. the yell knocks down hordes so you can beat the hell out of them while they're on the ground. the shout pushes bosses, so it'll force spaghetti-o to drop his meal or roger/trollface to stop beating on a downed ally. Ra Ra Rasputin posted:I don't understand the hate for sienna's melee options, pyro has absurd attack speed and crit bonuses, two things that go together like peanut butter and jelly, unchained has all of the damage which is good if you weren't meeting certain thresholds on pyro's hit to kill ratio. the particulars are what kill her setup. people talk up the sword and the sword is fine but it's ONLY fine. there's a reason few people run around with kruber's arming sword. i do, but i'm an exception. the sword doesn't actually help on a lot of the heavy fighting, and it's bad against armor. the dagger is worse against armor and, for being a finesse weapon, is irritatingly hard to headshot with, especially on the second strong attack. the mace misses the head on the bop for poorly defined reasons all the time. in theory the mace is good but the particulars are just wrong in a lot of ways. nobody even bothers mentioning the flaming sword because it's that useless. her melee arsenal really needs a good tweaking. Coolguye fucked around with this message at 01:08 on May 22, 2018 |
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May 22, 2018 00:58
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Ravenfood posted:Alright, so. I've been really comfortable with the BH and done pretty well with it on Champion with the rapier and had been pairing it with either scrounger brace or a volleybow. I'm interested in trying out this WHC thing. Rapier and scrounger brace still a good choice of weapons? Generally the same style of dancing around the fringes aiming for headshots and brace to either unload into bosses or to pick off close/midrange specials? I also haven't figured out really when to yell. The cooldown is so long that I can't do it most fights like I can use the BH's execution. falchion/scrounger brace of pistols with as much crit chance as you can get will reel in the circles. I started with duration on the shout for bosses, but I found in practice that spraying them tends to make them go after you, so you can't keep shooting them for the full 10 seconds and the extra kinda goes to waste (on you at least). So I switched to recharge, which lets you use the shout as an ammo refill on groups more often, and the brace is so drat good that just treating the witch hunter captain as a guy who can use the brace the most is a powerful setup. Take more pistols and power with a grimoire, and crit chance when a taggable enemy dies for more ammo refill chance. I put resourceful combatant on my melee weapon to try to get pistol refills faster but I don't really see it doing much. someone in the discord speculated it's actually a flat 2 seconds of recharge instead of 2%. I need to use it on a character with a short cooldown and eyeball the bar to see if that's true.
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May 22, 2018 02:14
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Coolguye posted:basically the situation with jsat is this: Haha my coworker made this.
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May 22, 2018 02:35
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Tell him he is cool
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May 22, 2018 02:36
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Xaris posted:I have three red loving necklaces and just got a charm. Multiple charms are good because you can run +Chaos/Skaven Inf/Armored/ASpeed combos for different breakpoints. sadly I 'm nearly out of greens and just left it on +10 Chaos/+10 Inf, but would have liked to roll it to 5ASpeed/10 Chaos. And then there's cases for either Concoction or Extended Duration I got 2 red charms and 2 red handguns for the dwarf haha, i got lucky and rolled 5%AS/10% chaos but i've so far sunk 30 green dust into trying to reroll my 2nd red charm to 10% chaos/10% skaven for builds that don't need attack speed. The necklaces are amazing because you can change the traits so 1 regen, 1 dupe, and 1 30% more healing. Unchained sienna with mace+fireball is fucknuts, i got 8k damage on champion while the pubby huntsman only got 6k. Honestly i don't mind bosses getting deleted because 95% of the wipes are to other poo poo before the boss and every boss is almost trivial with a halfway decent group. It's worse to get to the boss then watch your pubs eat themselves and leave you to try and solo the boss that's at 5% health only to die.
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May 22, 2018 02:44
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I finally figured out how to best play Sienna. Play Bardin.
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May 22, 2018 02:52
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