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I think that we can all agree that the Magic: the Gathering set Master 25 (A25) was a failure on all accounts. The set wasn't particularly nostalgic, valuable, or even fun to draft. I think that we can honestly crowd source a better set, so let's try it! Here's what I am thinking: we set up a google doc (coming soon) to compile everything, and then once we have the set maybe trick a few goons into drafting it. Here are the design constraints with which we will be working:
Here is (I hope) a link to the Google spreadsheet. I will have to figure out an elegant way to include multiple cards of the same rarity be included in the course that for the set, but we can at least start cataloging. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WQf6pPbsC-GYxtEWGU131P3T_uaVPl7dQxADKWCaHEw/edit?usp=drivesdk Shadow225 fucked around with this message at 06:43 on Mar 22, 2018 |
# ? Mar 21, 2018 21:00 |
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# ? Mar 28, 2024 09:51 |
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My initial thoughts are that filling out the common slots will be the most difficult, and filling out the rare slots will be the easiest. As such here are the two approaches I could think to help start. - Run through the sets and try to grab the easy commons and uncommons to start, fill in the rares, and then look at shifting rarity in order to fill in holes. - List the iconic cards by set, then fill in the holes afterward. I would suggest that we hold off on rarity shifting at the onset, but obviously good arguments could be made immediately. Also, I am not attached to using every set in the above post. I don't know if Starter 1999 was an iconic set or whatever, but if not I would be cool with skipping it. How do we want to approach this bear?
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 21:08 |
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It's A25. M25 is gonna be the core set in a few years.
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 21:17 |
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If you're starting with commons and uncommons, there are a lot that are iconic just by their prevalence in standard at the time, or in eternal formats. Flametongue Kavu Remand Imperial Recruiter Counterspell LLanowar Elves Skullclamp etc
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 21:23 |
Harrow Chimeric Idol Evil Eye of Orms by Gore Crystal Vein Wild Mongrel The Seal Cycle (from Nemesis) Mogg Conscripts Mat Cauthon fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Mar 21, 2018 |
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 21:42 |
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The rare lands should absolutely be the fetches, thus knocking off Onslaught and Zendikar. M10 should be covered by Doom Blade at common. While Skullclamp is definitely an iconic uncommon, I don't like it in a format that's meant to be drafted. How about AEther Vial or the Swords for Darksteel?
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 22:05 |
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To start this conversation: I nominate either the allied painlands or the allied fetchlands for the rare land cycle spot. From my memory the painlands were the premier dual land cycle in early Magic (unless the ABU duals were legal) and fetchlands have had a huge impact on the game since they were introduced in Onslaught. I could go either way on this but I think I know what others will say. Also I think the LOR planeswalkers have to be in there since PWs have been an important part of the game since their printing, both mechanics-wise and lore-wise. Troll option to print the Gatewatch walkers instead.
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 22:06 |
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Grizzly Bears Icy Manipulator Scaled Wurm Birds of Paradise Lord of Atlantis Lotus Petal Original Karoo lands Craw Giant the ETB tapped mono-color mana rock cycle (charcoal diamond, etc) the spell shaper cycle Blastoderm
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 22:08 |
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Some good submissions here. Can we start including the initial set for bookkeeping? The Shortest Path posted:If you're starting with commons and uncommons, there are a lot that are iconic just by their prevalence in standard at the time, or in eternal formats. That's a good list. Imperial Recruiter would be rarity shifted to rare because of the price (that we don't acknowledge!!!!) and also maybe power level. Skullclamp was a card I was thinking of myself, but it's in that weird space where you probably want it at rare for draft balance, but you don't want to open it as a rare. Rap Record Hoarder posted:Harrow Another good list. Harrow is a dang good grab. I am not sure how I would feel about Evil Eye without many walls, but maybe that was part of the appeal? Wild Mongrel is good, but would probably knock out Grizzly Bears since it's strictly better. Is that an issue if both are at common? I want to be careful about cycles since we are limited by the number of sets we must allocate cards to, and 5 from a set would be problematic. Thisuck posted:Grizzly Bears Great list. Grizzly Bears is one of the cards I was thinking of that would be a slam dunk. Green is the easiest color to grab creatures for, and there are strictly better bears for days, but it's a dang nickname, so we have to keep it imo Lord of Atlantis is in a weird place in my mind because it is iconic, but do we keep it in with few, if any, other merfolk? Craw Giant has Rampage, which isn't an evergreen mechanic. That restriction is going to knock out so many other cards (hello Fatal Push and Bloodbraid Elf). I wonder if Wizards would have saved themselves from some flame if they announced that at the onset? See above for cycles. Same for Blastoderm, though I can look through again and see if Fading made the cut in their A25. For my immediate thoughts: Path to Exile (CON) - It's either this or Swords to Plowshares. I think either would be fine, but they printed Swords in Iconic, so it's this gal's time to shine. Sakura-Tribe Elder (CHK) - Has this guy been reprinted too many times, or is it still good here? Grapeshot (TSP) - One of the 4 iconic Storm finishers. If you're going to have Dark Ritual (we're probably going to have Dark Ritual), might as well throw this in. Gray Ogre (M) - Not a great creature, but we need some red dudes, and this seems iconic. Boonweaver Giant (M15) - He's a way to enable an aura archetype, and I would argue that he's iconic because of the EDH combos. Reanimate (TMP) - Has a literal archetype named after it. It's a highly sought card in multiple formats. Ash Barrens (C16) - Land fixing that hasn't been in a million products. If we keep it, let's keep it at the original printing of common. Man-o'-War (VIS) - Basically has its own creature archetype, and we're hurting for blue creatures. Shadow225 fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Mar 21, 2018 |
# ? Mar 21, 2018 22:33 |
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I'd suggest that while we don't necessarily need draft archetypes, we should consider making sure that we work in several key themes for mechanics that show up across multiple sets. One reason they included some of the creatures they did was because Morph shows up in three different blocks (Onslaught, Time Spiral, Scars). There are probably a couple of others we should consider, such as tribal themes, legends/enchantments/colors/artifacts matter, etc. Finally I want to make a suggestion for a single addition: Once we're done, I think we should plan/discuss a 25-card Masterpieces set to include, with the stipulation that it include one card published from every year of Magic. I'm also cool with either painlands or fetches being the cycle of rare lands included in the set.
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 22:38 |
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Grizzly Bear and Gray Ogre I think are bad for two reasons: they're underpowered vanilla creatures that get obsoleted by a bunch of other things which we may want in the set even at common (eg. Wild Mongrel), and they're competing with a LOT of other cards from ABU. Llanowar Elves and Lightning Bolt are much more relevant iconic cards for their respective colors from the original set than Grizzly Bear and Gray Ogre, imo. Also Serra Angel, Sengir Vampire, Shivan Dragon at uncommon, etc.
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 23:24 |
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Jitte. Yeah, I know, but it's only been printed thrice, once as a Promo, and then in an FTV. If you're going to hit every set, and major innovations, the most ridiculous equipment should probably be there. You could even argue for it to eat a Mythic slot. Evil Badman fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Mar 22, 2018 |
# ? Mar 21, 2018 23:57 |
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I'm totally in favor of Jitte being the Betrayers entrant, but probably at Mythic for limited.
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# ? Mar 22, 2018 00:01 |
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Currently there are 12 cards from ABU in Masters 25, and I think that 12-15 is close to the upper limit for how many you can/should include from ABU. Current list: - Armageddon - Disenchant - Savannah Lions - Swords to Plowshares - Blue Elemental Blast - Counterspell - Dark Ritual - Will-O’-the-Wisp - Lightning Bolt - Red Elemental Blast - Giant Growth - Regrowth Cards I think you can just remove from Masters 25 because they aren't interesting enough and are just there to re-use art or for vintage or some poo poo and don't add much limited value: - Armageddon - Blue Elemental Blast - Red Elemental Blast Cards I think aren't particularly strong and can be replaced by other cards in later sets without anyone getting too upset: - Savannah Lions -> Replace with Elite Vanguard from M10. Functionally the same but there are bound to be more Soldiers in white, so this gives us more synergy - Swords to Plowshares -> Replace with Path to Exile from Conflux. It's a better version from a play standpoint, because it has a more interesting drawback, and it's also got Modern value. Plus, it gives us a better Conflux card and we can use the sweet Rebecca Guay art for our version - Will-O'-the-Wisp -> Replace with any black creature you want, really. I don't think people care too much about this one. Sengir Vampire is fine here Wrath of God also kind of falls into this category too--I think we can replace it with Damnation from Planar Chaos and/or Day of Judgment from Zendikar to get more variety without losing much. Thoughts on the other classics: - Serra Angel: I think we can probably look at some other angels to replace her, like Baneslayer or Restoration Angel, if only because that gives us more cards from other sets. - Shivan Dragon: This guy could go at uncommon, but I think Bogardan Hellkite is probably the big red dragon we want in the set. Though I'm open to other suggestions--Thundermaw Dragon from M13 is another solid competitor.
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# ? Mar 22, 2018 00:32 |
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Here's a list of the A25 stuff sorted by original printing, which is helpful: https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/81t6cz/list_of_masters_25_cards_by_watermark/
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# ? Mar 22, 2018 02:24 |
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So I'm currently looking through Innistrad Block for iconic Commons/Uncommons. So really its a question of choose 1: Ambush Viper - unique Green Uncommon Claustrophobia - blue removal. Has been reprinted before. Dead Weight - =2/=2 black removal. Enchantment, if you kinda want a WB enchantment archetype. Prey Upon - The OG fight card. Ghost Quarter Intangible virtue - Tokens obvs. Invisible Stalker - it's iconic, although perhaps too powerful. Naturalize - this is more to put Naturalize forward than to suggest it for Innistrad, but it should probably be in. Smite the Monstrous - maybe obsolete with Path to Exile. Also reprintible somewhere else. Traveler's Amulet -The first printing for okay fixing Typhoid Rats - also a first printing, but Typhoid rats are a mainstay of draft. Village Bell-Ringer - Much like Ambush Viper, a weird card that hasn't been reprinted. Walking Corpse - Available for Magic 2014/2015. Black bears. Not sure if they should be here, but for the sake of completeness. Innistrad has a number of 'iconic' pickups that fit the criteria.
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# ? Mar 22, 2018 02:28 |
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I feel like the only ones on that list that are iconic are Ghost Quarter, Invisible Stalker, and Typhoid Rats. Maybe Village Bell-Wringer too if we also include Kiki or Twin for draft synergy?
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# ? Mar 22, 2018 02:31 |
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I think we should include Prey Upon, since that was the debut of "fight" as an actual Magic term.
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# ? Mar 22, 2018 02:35 |
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^^^ agreed on Prey Upon. Commons/Uncommons that I think should stay in, that are already in Masters 25 (does not include multicolor/artifact/land): White: - Auramancer (Odyssey) - Fiend Hunter (Innistrad) - Loyal Sentry (Portal) - Pacifism (Mirage) Blue: - Brainstorm (Ice Age) - Man-o'-War (Visions) - Merfolk Looter (Exodus) Black - Ihsan's Shade (Homelands) - Murder (M13) - Ravenous Chupacabra (Rivals of Ixalan) Red: - Jackal Pup (Tempest) - Pillage (Alliances) Green: - Plummet (M11) - Rancor (Urza's Legacy) - WIldheart Invoker (Rise of the Eldrazi)
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# ? Mar 22, 2018 02:38 |
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Yeah that makes sense given how relevant fight is nowadays. I think one of either Doom Blade or Go for the Throat would be better than Murder. Mulldrifter is the quintessential common from Lorwyn imo. Also Looter Il-Kor from Time Spiral, since blue common creatures are hard. Fajita Queen fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Mar 22, 2018 |
# ? Mar 22, 2018 02:44 |
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The Shortest Path posted:Yeah that makes sense given how relevant fight is nowadays. We did actually did get Chups, but I agree on Doom Blade or GftT and I can get behind either one. Maybe Ultimate Price? As much as I'm in agreement about Mulldrifter and Looter (Iove them both), we can't use Evoke or Shadow.
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# ? Mar 22, 2018 02:47 |
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Oh poo poo I didn't even think of that. They really handicapped themselves with the mechanics restriction, huh? There are so, so many cards that want to be in this set but can't because they make dumb rules for themselves.
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# ? Mar 22, 2018 02:48 |
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TheChirurgeon posted:Commons/Uncommons that I think should stay in, that are already in Masters 25 (does not include multicolor/artifact/land): I kind of prefer Oblivion Ring, since I think it's more iconic, which is why i didn't include Fiend Hunter in the list. And Prey Upon is obviously frontrunner for Innistrad inclusion. Dark Ascension & Avacyn Restored These are included together because Dark Ascension was a small set, and Avacyn Restored was terrible. Like, Original A45 Terrible. Dark Ascension Evolving Wilds Divination - Griptide Nephalia Seakite Thought Scour Avacyn Restored Blood Artist Favorable Winds Ghostly Flicker Pillar of Flame? AVN was sooo bad. it's probably easier to find a good rare in Restoration Angel, although obviously that's the kind of thing that creates a reprint full of all the expensive cards.
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# ? Mar 22, 2018 02:59 |
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Blood Artist is a great choice and I'd love to see us downshift it to common for Pauper. Favorable Winds would be good if we did a flying theme (Thunderclap Wyvern at uncommon?) I don't know about Flicker.
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# ? Mar 22, 2018 03:07 |
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Some Numbers posted:Blood Artist is a great choice and I'd love to see us downshift it to common for Pauper. I think Blood Artist is the play as well. Not going to speak on if it should be downshifted. EDIT: Return to Ravnica has Ultimate Price, but I think the most iconic card from it (that doesn't have non-evergreen keywords) would be Goblin Electromancer, really. Torchlighter fucked around with this message at 03:22 on Mar 22, 2018 |
# ? Mar 22, 2018 03:14 |
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Torchlighter posted:I kind of prefer Oblivion Ring, since I think it's more iconic, which is why i didn't include Fiend Hunter in the list. And Prey Upon is obviously frontrunner for Innistrad inclusion. I think the set can include Fiend Hunter and ORing, but that's fair. Avacyn Restored was bad, but we can include Blood Artist and Resto Angel and call it a day there. Also, Masters 25 included Cloudshift, but I'd just as soon swap that out for Momentary Blink
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# ? Mar 22, 2018 03:26 |
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Torchlighter posted:Return to Ravnica has Ultimate Price, but I think the most iconic card from it (that doesn't have non-evergreen keywords) would be Goblin Electromancer, really. Abrupt Decay or Dreadbore?
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# ? Mar 22, 2018 03:27 |
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Comedy options: Cancel for Time Spiral and Kami of Ancient Law for Kamigawa.
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# ? Mar 22, 2018 03:28 |
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Some Numbers posted:Abrupt Decay or Dreadbore? Dreadbore is a great card, but might be weird if we end up not having any planeswalkers in the set. Terminate might be a better include, and would be either common or uncommon TheChirurgeon fucked around with this message at 03:41 on Mar 22, 2018 |
# ? Mar 22, 2018 03:32 |
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Some Numbers posted:Abrupt Decay or Dreadbore? I'm only looking at Uncommons/commons. does mean I miss a lot of rares. Some Numbers posted:Comedy options: Cancel for Time Spiral and Kami of Ancient Law for Kamigawa. Kami of Ancient Law did get reprinted in a Modern Masters.
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# ? Mar 22, 2018 03:33 |
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Oh I forgot you were focusing on non-rares. Yeah, Ultimate Price is good call for RTR at that point.
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# ? Mar 22, 2018 03:36 |
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Gatecrash Hmmm, not a lot here. Multicolour small sets are obviously a tough one, since they have a lot going on, and Ravnica has so many mechanics in it that there's only a small group that hit the criteria, and most of them are bad. But there's some that provide unique effects that aren't evergreen. Burning-Tree Emissary Cartel Aristocrat Crowned Ceratok Foundry Street Denizen Madcap Skills Prophetic Prism Gift of Orzhova Truefire Paladin Rapid Hybridization Wight of Precinct Six, maybe Rares actually do have some variety. Angelic Skirmisher Boros Reckoner Duskmantle Seer? Obzedat, Ghost Council For my mind, it's Madcap Skills and Boros Reckoner as the Iconic cards, Gatecrash was an aggro set. EDIT: Gatecrash Card was Totally Lost? Of course it was, WOTC bought into the Fblthp meme. Also I'm okay with Notion Thief from Dragon''s Maze. Torchlighter fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Mar 22, 2018 |
# ? Mar 22, 2018 04:50 |
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Kami of Ancient Law is legit a good limited card and probably one of the better commons from Kamigawa since we can't use anything that cares about arcane. Maybe Council of the Soratami, since it predates Divination? And Sakura-Tribe Elder ofc Fajita Queen fucked around with this message at 04:54 on Mar 22, 2018 |
# ? Mar 22, 2018 04:51 |
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Torchlighter posted:Gatecrash quote:Gift of Orzhova quote:Also I'm okay with Notion Thief from Dragon''s Maze.
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# ? Mar 22, 2018 06:32 |
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Here is (I hope) a link to the Google spreadsheet. I will have to figure out an elegant way to include multiple cards of the same rarity be included in the course that for the set, but we can at least start cataloging. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WQf6pPbsC-GYxtEWGU131P3T_uaVPl7dQxADKWCaHEw/edit?usp=drivesdk If I have accidentally doxxed myself, someone please be a bro and let me know so I can do damage control ha Shadow225 fucked around with this message at 06:46 on Mar 22, 2018 |
# ? Mar 22, 2018 06:44 |
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You'll need to give us editing access.
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# ? Mar 22, 2018 06:51 |
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I don't think there's a way to remove my name unfortunately, but try that. Let's use the prospective sheet for now. If a set had multiple cards, insert a row under it to fill in the appropriate spot, and we will deal with the counts later. I should also figure out a way to count colors and types for balancing as well. Maybe tomorrow.
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# ? Mar 22, 2018 06:56 |
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I'm in. Do we have a discord?
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# ? Mar 22, 2018 07:11 |
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I think to start what we should be looking for at is iconic cards from each set and ensuring that each one is something that when a player looks at them they should instantly be able to go "Oh that's from X" and be within the correct block without looking at the watermark.
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# ? Mar 22, 2018 07:13 |
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# ? Mar 28, 2024 09:51 |
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Gridlocked posted:I think to start what we should be looking for at is iconic cards from each set and ensuring that each one is something that when a player looks at them they should instantly be able to go "Oh that's from X" and be within the correct block without looking at the watermark. Somewhat difficult with certain cards, for example naturalize. Format allstays would preferably fill the M10 through M2015 slots as cards tgat'never really had a block to be iconic, but were important and useful cards anyway. Born of the Gods and Journey into Nyx had eidolan of the great revel and courser of Kruphix as their picks, while Theros had Bident of Thassa, which was part of a cycle. Possible substitutions include Titan's strength, which is a common, but is a solid red combat trick, or at rare, maybe prophet of kruphix? Theros has a fair few legendaries as well, so for example, Daxos could be an option. But there's a lot of heroic and monsterous running around. (So close, Stormbreath Dragon)
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# ? Mar 22, 2018 08:08 |