|
My arguement is without memorable mechanics you're diluting the interactions the draft format will have and just turing it into a core set. Also again frankly one of the reasons the set is so lovely is because they cut out cards that were good, cool and memorable by saying "No it's got X mechanic." Which was a bad move. No one is buying the set for constructed play unless they REALLY want to gamble on certain chase rares. Who gives a toss about the commons and uncommons beyond the cool looking box? Urbis Protector with the new frame and Gatecrash watermark, but who is playing Urbis Protector outside of maybe EDH? Does anyone look at Urbis Protector and go "Hey that guy was Gatecrash!" What about Knight of Obligation instead? A 2/4 Vigilance for 4 with Extort. Anyone who remembers Gatecrash will go "OH MAN EXTORT" so its evocative. It also was one of the greatest limited mechanics of all time, and by giving say 2 or 3 slots to extort creatures in Black and White we can potentially edge the life gain sub theme for White and maybe the value sub theme for black with maybe weeines? See all things we can do with mechanics that help people evoke thoughts of a set and help set up a better limited format than "White and Blue flies  "
Gridlocked fucked around with this message at 09:42 on Mar 23, 2018 |
#
?
Mar 23, 2018 07:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 19:49 |
|
|
Shadow225 posted:Unrelated to that, the more I think about it, the more I agree with the enemy filterlands. This is the first reprint that they have had, and they probably saw quite a bit of play, even in eternal, before being obsoleted by better lands. I can get behind this, though I'd also suggest the Worldwake Allied manlands, which desperately need a reprint and have pretty good value. Gridlocked posted:My arguement is without memorable mechanics you're diluting the interactions the draft format will have and just turing it into a core set. There are mechanics we can build around without using specific keywords, such as white and blue having a blink theme with creatures who have etb effects.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2018 11:29
|
|
|
TheChirurgeon posted:I can get behind this, though I'd also suggest the Worldwake Allied manlands, which desperately need a reprint and have pretty good value. Also, while it might be cool to run two or three extort creatures, that's a giant investment, because That's two or three slots for RTR, and we're looking for at least 1 card per set. More importantly, there are 'memorable mechanics': The interaction between the evergreen mechanics we have. This is a snapshot of Magic as a whole over a 25 year period. Picking a card because it's a memorable part of a set alone won't matter if the mechanic behind it requires a critical mass. A25 is basically a Chaos Draft, and one of the first guidelines in picking packs for a chaos draft is picking packs not because they're memorable, but because they play well with packs they weren't designed to play with. Blocks that have overly parasitic mechanics simply won't have enough playable cards to create a satisfactory drafting experience.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2018 11:59
|
|
|
TheChirurgeon posted:I can get behind this, though I'd also suggest the Worldwake Allied manlands, which desperately need a reprint and have pretty good value. Torchlighter posted:Also, while it might be cool to run two or three extort creatures, that's a giant investment, because That's two or three slots for RTR, and we're looking for at least 1 card per set. More importantly, there are 'memorable mechanics': The interaction between the evergreen mechanics we have. This is a snapshot of Magic as a whole over a 25 year period. Picking a card because it's a memorable part of a set alone won't matter if the mechanic behind it requires a critical mass. I'm not saying we jam every Extort card in I'm saying that as an example we could have a small number of Extort cards that will evoke the memories of Gatecrash while making them a component of a larger theme, say life gain matters, between white and/or black. That being said I can see the difference in our design philosophy here. You see a Chaos Draft and I see a Cube. What it IS is a Chaos draft, what it should have been is a Cube.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2018 14:21
|
|
|
TheChirurgeon posted:I can get behind this, though I'd also suggest the Worldwake Allied manlands, which desperately need a reprint and have pretty good value. Fine with those as well, even though it's probably only Colonnade that needs the help. Gridlocked posted:I'm not saying we jam every Extort card in I'm saying that as an example we could have a small number of Extort cards that will evoke the memories of Gatecrash while making them a component of a larger theme, say life gain matters, between white and/or black. In a sense, I agree with you. These restrictions do knock out most of the memorable cards. However, a cube has a different set of restraints on it. You don't have to worry about fun things like rarity, so you can roll very powerful cards en masse without consequence. You can also skip many sets in Magic without consequence and just grab the creme de la crop. Cube also caters to well established players who can (hopefully) make sense of the interactions between all of the mechanics. To your point, I am looking over the Vintage Cube list from December, and most of the cards are generically powerful, but a few one off mechanics are present. Maybe that isn't breaking anything, but you also have enablers for everything...mostly at rare. If you want to play an Eldrazi, you can play mana dork ramp, Sneak Attack, and Show and Tell. Those strategies also have synergy with say, Griselbrand and Razaketh, which also open up Entomb and Unburial Rites. That thought pattern alone is looking at about 3 commons, 1 uncommon, and like 7 rares. You could play Fatal Push, but it's helped a lot by the presence of all 10 fetches, which grab all 20 OG duals and shocklands. We are only able to grab 5 fetches max because we can't take 10 rare slots with lands when we have to take cards from weaker sets that are probably rare. We would also then have to facilitate Revolt elsewhere without the benefit of Treasure tokens. tl;dr Cube is a completely different set of rules, although probably more fun. As for cards, I can't currently check the sheet, but if we need a Stronghold card, Fling (c) comes to mind. Along the same lines, Threaten (ONS) (u) comes to mind.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2018 17:18
|
|
|
I've looked over stronghold cards, and fling is a possibility. Other possibilities include Wall of Blossoms and tortured existance. Fling, I think, works better than shock, which obviously stacks up poorly next to Lightning bolt. It's one of the reasons I didn't nominate Lightning strike for theros.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2018 20:13
|
|
|
TheChirurgeon posted:Ravnica won't be hurting for iconic cards to include, though. On the other hand, if you wanted to make a case for Memory lapse, I'd be willing to hear it, since Homelands has maybe 3 cards that anyone would ever include Homelands is a hard one because the set is just so bad. There's some "cool" cards in there that would just be 14th picks every time if you put them in. The actual most iconic cards are Autumn Willow and Baron Sengir, but the Baron is unplayable and I think they're both on the reserve list. Memory Lapse definitely makes the short list. (Ok, let's be honest, with Homelands there was never a long list) Other ideas: Serrated Arrows, Merchant Scroll, Eron the Relentless, Broken Visage.  Broken Visage is a cool one, and actually a pretty good card. Two-for-one removal! That's playable in limited at 5 mana! But I can see the argument against it being that you're going to want to fill the common / uncommon removal slots with way more iconic cards. I don't really like Ihsan's Shade in the set. It's basically a sideboard card and the only really cool thing about it in the first place was the art and flavour, which they mostly ditched anyway. I honestly think Memory Lapse is the best pick for Homelands.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2018 06:14
|
|
|
The big problem with Serrated Arrows is that you can't put both -1/-1 and +1/+1 counters in the same set, so that excludes a bunch of cards for its sake. If it ends up working out well anyway that would be cool though. That does leave Lapse as the clear cut winner though, yeah, unless you wanna keep the Shade. Merchant Scroll feels too narrow and Actually scratch that, it's apparently in. He still doesn't strike me as a good pick though because he's a red bomb competing with dozens of other red bombs which are waaaaaay more iconic than him. Fajita Queen fucked around with this message at 06:26 on Mar 24, 2018 |
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2018 06:21
|
|
|
^^^   Another tricky set is Fallen Empires. It has the same basic problem as Homelands, namely being godawful. There's actually a few pretty iconic cards from it though: Goblin Grenade Hymn to Tourach High Tide Thallid Order of Lightbur Order of the Ebon Hand Goblin War Drums War Drums was a decent choice. The first Menace card! A bunch of the others have issues: Goblin Grenade is great, if you have a Goblin Tribal thing going on at all, like they did in the original Modern Masters. Difficult to pull off the restrictions for this set though, so GG is probably out. Cheap random discard is miserable for limited, so Hymn is out, which is a shame because it's undoubtedly the most famous card from the set. High Tide is a niche constructed combo card, no one wants it in Limited. Thallid has the same problem as Goblin Grenade. If you have a fungus thing going on, sure, but you're not going to in this set, and it's really bad if there's no way to increase your saproling production rate. Thallids are only good when you have a bunch of them that boost each other. I think the only other real contenders are the Orders, which really want to be printed as a pair.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2018 06:33
|
|
|
The Shortest Path posted:The big problem with Serrated Arrows is that you can't put both -1/-1 and +1/+1 counters in the same set, so that excludes a bunch of cards for its sake. If it ends up working out well anyway that would be cool though. Regenerate is actually fine to include, considering it was evergreen like protection until thy changed it. So we can include cards with regenerate But including Memory lapse means we can put Counterspell in the uncommon slot and have our vertical cycle of Memory Lapse/Counterspell/Cryptic Command/Force of Will. But if we're going to have counterspells readily available, we might want to look into some creatures that can blank that as removal. The three i'd think about would be: -Loxodon Smiter, a big rare from Return that can't be countered, and blanks discard as well. Could be interesting in a format with Hymn. -Thrun, the last Troll, which is a muuuuuch better green mythic than Tree of Perdition. a big 4/4 regenerating beatstick. -Prowling Serpopard from Amonkhet, which got a lot of hype early, but never say play in the degenerate Aetherworks/Emrakul world,and didn't have a good counter spell to blank in the energy world. EDIT:Interesting fact, we have 4 rares and 4 mythic slots left. Obviously there's gonna be rarity shifting etc. But there you go. Also i keep thinking that Goblin Electromancer is an uncommon, because it's far too good a card to be common.But it is. Torchlighter fucked around with this message at 06:43 on Mar 24, 2018 |
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2018 06:34
|
|
|
Entropic posted:^^^ Icatian Javelineers is a pretty rad limited common from FE.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2018 07:21
|
|
|
Fallen Empires and Homelands are both better and easier to pull cards from than The Dark. Go look at that set. There are maybe 4 ok non-reserved list cards in the whole set. Also I'm fine with including Ihsan's shade from homelands. He's a cool dude
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2018 12:03
|
|
|
Ihsan’s Shade was pretty baller in the day because he is essentially immune to the trifecta of premium old-school removal in Swords, Terror, and Bolt.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2018 13:00
|
|
|
TheChirurgeon posted:Fallen Empires and Homelands are both better and easier to pull cards from than The Dark. Go look at that set. There are maybe 4 ok non-reserved list cards in the whole set. Maze of Ith isn't on the reserve list! Comedy option: Uncle Istvan. Or there's Elves of the Deep Shadow or Ball Lightning. So, yeah, like 4 or 5 good cards.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2018 18:55
|
|
|
Uh... Blood Moon.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2018 20:50
|
|
|
I mean I figure the ones they actually used go without saying.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2018 20:56
|
|
|
To me Ixidor seems like a very obvious inclusion to the set if it's going to have Morph; I don't really understand why he isn't in the real thing at uncommon in that Polymorphist legend's place.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2018 00:16
|
|
|
Oh god I just started listening to the LR episode on M25 and they're reading the WotC pitch for the set. How wrong WotC were. Also Marshall also calls it cube like. But also chaos draft like. But LSV said cube.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2018 07:16
|
|
|
The Shortest Path posted:I feel like including the original Lords (Goblin King, Lord of Atlantis, Elvish Champion, Lord of the Undead, plus Field Marshal from Coldsnap) would be a really good idea to be honest. Maybe be bold and throw them in at uncommon, even! This is my own personal banner, but when it comes to tribes, how about Birds? Birds are a fun limited tribe that includes a nice mixture of Soldiers and Wizards - two very iconic creature types - as well as a few others like Clerics and Shaman (not to mention plenty of actual birds)! They don't have much in the way of direct payoff (unless you want to put Soulcatcher's Aerie in the set), but they play nicely into Soldier & Wizard tribal while also feeding into a U/W Fliers archetype. also it lets you print storm crow as a filler common Niton fucked around with this message at 09:04 on Mar 26, 2018 |
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2018 08:54
|
|
|
Wow apperently LSV and and Marshall like this set.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2018 06:56
|
|
|
Was busy over the weekend. I will make an effort to update the spreadsheet with all of the suggested cards at some point in the next few days in order to see what sets we need to brainstorm (GETIT???) over. I think that we have made a lot of progress, just sort of scattered.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2018 21:29
|
|
|
Shadow225 posted:Was busy over the weekend. I will make an effort to update the spreadsheet with all of the suggested cards at some point in the next few days in order to see what sets we need to brainstorm (GETIT???) over. I think that we have made a lot of progress, just sort of scattered. Well, the spreadsheets missing around 36 commons, a few mythics and rares, and 26 uncommons. Although it would probably behoove us to write up a collection of A25 to see where our substitutions are going to be made. After all, a number of A25 cards are still part of the set.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2018 23:28
|
|
|
Alright, I will fix the formulas later, but I have included pretty much everything mentioned in the thread that hasn't already been shot down. If I missed something, add it. Here are the sets that we do not currently have a card for without stealing the A25 representative (which is fine): Urza's Destiny Darksteel Saviors of Kamigawa Future Sight Morningtide Kaladesh Hour of Devstation Ixalan Commander 2015 There are a few that we could probably bolster, but let's start by filling everything first.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2018 06:33
|
|
|
Okay, so I took the time to transcribe every card in the original A25, and a number of things stood out to me. 1. They were a lot closer than most people thought A25 is not a good draft set. But in terms of memorable cards, there's a surprising amount of overlap between the goon suggested cards and the actual cards printed in A25, especially the earlier sets. the more contentious cards that people say shouldn't be in the set are from later sets. 2. They leaned heavily on Onslaught This makes a lot of sense, given that Onslaught had both cycling and Morph, But it also means that Amonkhet and Khans, who had cycling and Morph respectively, didn't really get their chance to shine. Khans suffered a lot by having to fill out the morph slots, leading to a lot of boring common morphs that didn't represent the strength of Khans. Amonkhet, meanwhile, had only 3 cards, only one of which actually cared about cycling. 3. Multicolour was weird. Also, a random cycle. Multicolour cards were weirdly comprised of a number of older cards, many of which were not that great. (Quicksilver Dagger)? But there was also a cycle of cards from different sets that cared about the ally card combos. Knight of the Skyward Eye, Court Hussar, Returned Phalanx, Skeletonize, and Ember Weaver all care about the colour next to them. Why they didn't go with the M12 cycle, I don't know (probably to avoid leaning too hard on a core set) but there you go.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2018 07:32
|
|
|
To address #1, I've noticed that there are a lot of cards we want to include in our Masters 25 that were in Iconic Masters, which further reinforces my belief that you could have easily made 1 great set out of the parts of both of those. On 2, I think they just wanted to avoid printing too many cards from recent sets, since those were still widely available and much less likely to foster a sense of nostalgia. I'll take a pass at the list tonight and add in more card suggestions. I was focusing primarily on commons/uncommons before.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2018 16:18
|
|
|
Torchlighter posted:Okay, so I took the time to transcribe every card in the original A25, and a number of things stood out to me. You are a saint for adding the original set in the left most column. Definitely makes things more clear. I also agree with a lot of your points. Within the restrictions that they were working, Wizards did better than we initially gave them credit for. If they didn't skimp for value in the set, I think the response would have maybe been fine?
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2018 22:26
|
|
|
Skullclamp's not a Mirrodin card guys.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2018 22:41
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 19:49 |
|
|
There's a *ton* more work to do here if we're being serious. We've got 254/249 cards right now, and that realistically needs to be more like 300+ that we trim down to 249. We're off-balance on our colors, have too many multicolor cards, have too many rares and not enough commons, and haven't really nailed down any draft archetypes yet.
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2018 17:18
|
|