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Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012
:gas;


BravestOfTheLamps posted:

Oh dear.

Jim Butcher's prose is banal and inexpressive. The passage you quoted is garbage, and that you apparently think of it as an ideal to strive towards does not bode well for your "fix fic".

Just look at the puerile hook that opens it:


Or a device as idiotic as the hero apparently trying to save a bunch of puppies.

The whole thing is crippled by sensory overdescription that doesn't express anything interesting. It's the author rushing through a near-indecipherable scene in an attempt to simulate excitement, signifying nothing.

Right, but weíre evidently going for a pulp aesthetic, in itself a callback to the old-school media the story is based around - campy, playful, high on moment-to-moment action and spectacle. Any better authors and better passages youíd suggest?

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BravestOfTheLamps
Oct 12, 2012



chitoryu12 posted:

Do you have any sample of your writing to show us what it should look like?

Sure. Here's the preface to one of my serialized works:

quote:

As the Manager of the Performance sits before the curtain on the boards, and looks into the Fair, a feeling of profound melancholy comes over him in his survey of the bustling place. There is a great quantity of eating and drinking, making love and jilting, laughing and the contrary, smoking, cheating, fighting, dancing, and fiddling: there are bullies pushing about, bucks ogling the women, knaves picking pockets, policemen on the look-out, quacks (other quacks, plague take them!) bawling in front of their booths, and yokels looking up at the tinselled dancers and poor old rouged tumblers, while the light-fingered folk are operating upon their pockets behind. Yes, this is Vanity Fair; not a moral place certainly; nor a merry one, though very noisy. Look at the faces of the actors and buffoons when they come off from their business; and Tom Fool washing the paint off his cheeks before he sits down to dinner with his wife and the little Jack Puddings behind the canvass. The curtain will be up presently, and he will be turning head over heels, and crying, "How are you?"

A man with a reflective turn of mind, walking through an exhibition of this sort, will not be oppressed, I take it, by his own or other people's hilarity. An episode of humour or kindness touches and amuses him here and there;óa pretty child looking at a gingerbread stall; a pretty girl blushing whilst her lover talks to her and chooses her fairing; poor Tom Fool, yonder behind the waggon, mumbling his bone with the honest family which lives by his tumbling;óbut the general impression is one more melancholy than mirthful. When you come home you sit down, in a sober, contemplative, not uncharitable frame of mind, and apply yourself to your books or your business.

I have no other moral than this to tag to the present story of "Vanity Fair". Some people consider Fairs immoral altogether, and eschew such, with their servants and families: very likely they are right. But persons who think otherwise and are of a lazy, or a benevolent, or a sarcastic mood, may perhaps like to step in for half an hour and look at the performances. There are scenes of all sorts; some dreadful combats, some grand and lofty horse-riding, some scenes of high life, and some of very middling indeed; some love-making for the sentimental, and some light comic business: the whole accompanied by appropriate scenery, and brilliantly illuminated with the Author's own candles.

What more has the Manager of the Performance to say?óTo acknowledge the kindness with which it has been received in all the principal towns of England through which the Show has passed, and where it has been most favourably noticed by the respected conductors of the Public Press, and by the Nobility and Gentry. He is proud to think that his Puppets have given satisfaction to the very best company in this empire. The famous little Becky Puppet has been pronounced to be uncommonly flexible in the joints and lively on the wire: the Amelia Doll, though it has had a smaller circle of admirers, has yet been carved and dressed with the greatest care by the artist: the Dobbin Figure, though apparently clumsy, yet dances in a very amusing and natural manner: the Little Boys' Dance has been liked by some; and please to remark the richly dressed figure of the Wicked Nobleman, on which no expense has been spared, and which Old Nick will fetch away at the end of this singular performance.

And with this, and a profound bow to his patrons, the Manager retires, and the curtain rises.

e:

Darth Walrus posted:

Right, but we’re evidently going for a pulp aesthetic, in itself a callback to the old-school media the story is based around - campy, playful, high on moment-to-moment action and spectacle. Any better authors and better passages you’d suggest?

Can you actually write anything "campy, playful, high on moment-to-moment action and spectacle"?

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014

We can't stop here! This is cat country!


BravestOfTheLamps posted:

Sure. Here's the preface to one of my serialized works:

Okay, William Makepeace Thackeray from 1848. I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt to see if you were serious about actually contributing anything, but I was wrong.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012
:gas;


BravestOfTheLamps posted:

Sure. Here's the preface to one of my serialized works:


e:


Can you actually write anything "campy, playful, high on moment-to-moment action and spectacle"?

Is that in the general sense? Because itís what airport fiction, comic books, and so on rely on. It would make sense for a work about a particular kind of pop-culture to speak in the language of that pop-culture, no?

Also, youíve said that the medium is the message. Why is your excerpt what a rewrite of RPO should look like? How does it enhance the story?

Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at Apr 11, 2018 around 13:21

BravestOfTheLamps
Oct 12, 2012



chitoryu12 posted:

Okay, William Makepeace Thackeray from 1848. I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt to see if you were serious about actually contributing anything, but I was wrong.

Just a tip: responding to criticism with "I'd like to see you do better" is absolutely useless. You don't need to actually be a writer of fiction to point out that some fiction is badly written, no more than you need to be a painter to be able to evaluate a painting.


Darth Walrus posted:

Is that in the general sense? Because itís what airport fiction, comic books, and so on rely on. It would make sense for a work about a particular kind of pop-culture to speak in the language of that pop-culture, no?

Can you write fiction at all?

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012
:gas;


BravestOfTheLamps posted:

Just a tip: responding to criticism with "I'd like to see you do better" is absolutely useless. You don't need to actually be a writer of fiction to point out that some fiction is badly written, no more than you need to be a painter to be able to evaluate a painting.


Can you actually write?

Iím not really seeing why thatís a relevant question, given the bolded.

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014

We can't stop here! This is cat country!


Honestly I'd just quit replying to him at this point. He's not doing any of this in good faith.

BravestOfTheLamps
Oct 12, 2012



chitoryu12 posted:

Honestly I'd just quit replying to him at this point. He's not doing any of this in good faith.

How is pointing out that Jim Butcher is a bad writer not arguing in "good faith"?


Darth Walrus posted:

I’m not really seeing why that’s a relevant question, given the bolded.

You do need to still need to able to write fiction in order to write fiction.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013



College Slice

chitoryu12 posted:

Do you have any sample of your writing to show us what it should look like?

Don't engage.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012
:gas;


BravestOfTheLamps posted:

How is pointing out that Jim Butcher is a bad writer not arguing in "good faith"?


You do need to still need to able to write fiction in order to write fiction.

Still not seeing how thatís relevant.

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014

We can't stop here! This is cat country!


Proteus Jones posted:

Don't engage.

Yeah, way ahead of you. I tried one last time to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he would do anything constructive, but....

A human heart
Oct 10, 2012



If you wanted to use pulp fiction as a model why wouldn't you read some actual pulp written by a guy who could write, like raymond chandler or someone, instead of third degree warmed over contemporary stuff that looks like an outtake from a marvel superhero film?

BravestOfTheLamps
Oct 12, 2012



chitoryu12 posted:

Yeah, way ahead of you. I tried one last time to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he would do anything constructive, but....

I am offering you simple advice: focus on your prose, consider writing an original work, and avoid poor literary influences. These are all constructive things.

What do you want to accomplish with your "fix fic"? You mention potential for something better, but what is that "something better"? Why lavishly detail every aspect of the plot and setting of the books if you want to be creative?

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012
:gas;


A human heart posted:

If you wanted to use pulp fiction as a model why wouldn't you read some actual pulp written by a guy who could write, like raymond chandler or someone, instead of third degree warmed over contemporary stuff that looks like an outtake from a marvel superhero film?

I mean, thatís not a bad suggestion, but one of the better airport novelists from the Eighties seems more fitting. Any thoughts?

Clipperton
Dec 20, 2011



Grimey Drawer

BravestOfTheLamps posted:

Just a tip: responding to criticism with "I'd like to see you do better" is absolutely useless. You don't need to actually be a writer of fiction to point out that some fiction is badly written, no more than you need to be a painter to be able to evaluate a painting.

if you're telling someone how they should write (especially if you're saying something very stupid, like "you should describe your prose style before you even start writing the prose") it kind of helps though

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014

We can't stop here! This is cat country!


Well, we're officially in the phase where we can start writing this first chapter. So anyone can submit writing samples to test the waters.

BravestOfTheLamps
Oct 12, 2012



Everyone my age remembers what they were jacking it to when they first heard about the contest. I was a forty year old man watching Tijuana Looney Tunes.

Samizdata
May 14, 2007


chitoryu12 posted:

Do you have any sample of your writing to show us what it should look like?

Of course not. They are a literary critic that can't be arsed to actually read things and instead make up what they want.

Samizdata
May 14, 2007


A human heart posted:

Perhaps because of the language used, or the ideas expressed, or to learn something. Just spitballing here.

You know, we are talking fiction here. I enjoy language as much as the next chap, but all the things you mentioned are what I read NON-fiction for.

loquacius
Oct 21, 2008




There is an answer
I haven't found it

But I will keep dancing 'til I do
Dance for you, dance for you, dance for you


I'm probably punching above my weight here but I think it's kind of a waste of time to spend this much effort discussing whether the prose will be good before any prose exists

we could just say "yes, the prose will be good " and then write some prose and then deal with any problems the prose has once they are there to be critiqued

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014

We can't stop here! This is cat country!


loquacius posted:

I'm probably punching above my weight here but I think it's kind of a waste of time to spend this much effort discussing whether the prose will be good before any prose exists

we could just say "yes, the prose will be good " and then write some prose and then deal with any problems the prose has once they are there to be critiqued

Yeah, I really want people to actually provide some prose that they think works instead of arguing about who's allowed to criticize something. The floor's open for serious contributions right now.

Samizdata
May 14, 2007


chitoryu12 posted:

Yeah, I really want people to actually provide some prose that they think works instead of arguing about who's allowed to criticize something. The floor's open for serious contributions right now.

What's the deadline? I won't really have any time to try until Sunday.

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014

We can't stop here! This is cat country!


Samizdata posted:

What's the deadline? I won't really have any time to try until Sunday.

If we get a good amount of contributions, probably about a week from now? We're in no rush.

Samizdata
May 14, 2007


chitoryu12 posted:

If we get a good amount of contributions, probably about a week from now? We're in no rush.

I will see if I can't get Calliope to pencil me in for a quick visit.

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

This is cyber bulling and I will not stand for it.


chitoryu12 posted:

Well, we're officially in the phase where we can start writing this first chapter. So anyone can submit writing samples to test the waters.

CHAPTER 1

It is hell to awaken. A dream, while a lesser thing, is still greater in its possibilities than the world that I wake to. My body, like all bodies, is designed for experience. My flesh is woven by millions of tiny nerve cells each starving for some sort of stimuli, some tiny little electric itch that they are desperate to have scratched. It is their reason to be. And as I awaken, they are calling for it like infant birds seeking food.

It is a world of deprivation I awaken to. I could not possibly describe it to you, this feeling of emptiness, not unless you have seen what I have seen. Felt what I have felt. Been where I have been. This world is a long empty room filled only with the lonely sounds of your own echoes. To live in it is like feeding on gruel after having seen a feast. And yet still I am glad for it, glad for this moment.

If not for these brief moments, between the dream and the ecstasy, I might lose sight of the pleasures that await me. These agonizing seconds in the total sensory exclusion of reality serve only to remind me of the inferiority of a life lived in analog. Still though, I made sure to sleep in my suit. I had even learned how to fall asleep with the helmet still on, to spare myself the inconvenience of having to find it every morning. The shorter the journey, I thought, the better. It only took a few seconds of tedious, tiresome, desolate reality for me to find the 'on' switch.

And then I was there. Every inch of my body was caressed by silken hands. Every hair was erect and tingling with the ecstasy of it. My mouth began to feel the gentle sensation of lips, of stinkyhole, of cock, all at my command. My penis enjoyed the wet agility of a human mouth, the warmth of a pussy, the suction grip of an rear end in a top hat, in a harmony of pleasure. My anus felt the warm tickling of a leathery and muscular tongue entering it, preparing it for greater insertions yet to come.

I was in the ONANSIS. I was home.

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

Rad Bird


BravestOfTheLamps posted:

Some dumb poo poo

lol @ someone getting so mad at people having fun on the internet they have a multi-day long obsessive meltdown over it. Who gives a poo poo what other people do with their time? Some guy literally pissed in a jar and it won an award from the National Endowment for the Arts. What are your thoughts on that in 50,000 words or less?

Go outside and enjoy the world away from your keyboard, you angry goony leg pimple.

BravestOfTheLamps
Oct 12, 2012



Mel Mudkiper posted:

And then I was there. Every inch of my body was caressed by silken hands. Every hair was erect and tingling with the ecstasy of it. My mouth began to feel the gentle sensation of lips, of stinkyhole, of cock, all at my command. My penis enjoyed the wet agility of a human mouth, the warmth of a pussy, the suction grip of an rear end in a top hat, in a harmony of pleasure. My anus felt the warm tickling of a leathery and muscular tongue entering it, preparing it for greater insertions yet to come.

I was in the ONANSIS. I was home.

Scintillating, arousing, harrowing. This is what literature should be.

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

This is cyber bulling and I will not stand for it.


nine-gear crow posted:

Some guy literally pissed in a jar and it won an award from the National Endowment for the Arts. What are your thoughts on that in 50,000 words or less?

Piss Christ is both aesthetically pleasing and intellectually provocative

49,991 words to spare. Eat it Hemingway.

ulvir
Jan 2, 2005

Jeg estimerer deg ikke.


nine-gear crow posted:

lol @ someone getting so mad at people having fun on the internet they have a multi-day long obsessive meltdown over it. Who gives a poo poo what other people do with their time? Some guy literally pissed in a jar and it won an award from the National Endowment for the Arts. What are your thoughts on that in 50,000 words or less?

Go outside and enjoy the world away from your keyboard, you angry goony leg pimple.

you are really mad about BotL existing for some weird reason

BravestOfTheLamps
Oct 12, 2012



nine-gear crow posted:

Some guy literally pissed in a jar and it won an award from the National Endowment for the Arts. What are your thoughts on that in 50,000 words or less?

Piss Christ? More please.

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

Rad Bird


ulvir posted:

you are really mad about BotL existing for some weird reason

Iím a moderator on the Something Awful Forums, Iím always mad. Itís a job requirement.

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

This is cyber bulling and I will not stand for it.


Do we have to write in chronological order? I want to redo the party scene with Art3mis and Parzival next

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014

We can't stop here! This is cat country!


I can't tell if you're being serious so I'm afraid to answer.

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

This is cyber bulling and I will not stand for it.


chitoryu12 posted:

I can't tell if you're being serious so I'm afraid to answer.

Too late I read your answer before you edited it

Why would you doubt my seriousness? So far I am the only one who has actually contributed prose.

chernobyl kinsman
Mar 18, 2007

a friend of the friendly atom


College Slice

Mel Mudkiper posted:

Piss Christ is both aesthetically pleasing and intellectually provocative

49,991 words to spare. Eat it Hemingway.

Dave Syndrome
Jan 11, 2007
Look, Bernard. Bernard, look. Look. Bernard. Bernard. Look. Bernard. Bernard. Bernard! Bernard. Bernard. Look, Bernard! Bernard. Bernard! Bernard! Look! Bernard! Bernard. Bernard! Bernard, look! Look! Look, Bernard! Bernard! Bernard, look! Look! Bern

I've had this idea of presenting Anorak's invitation as an in-world document, but I'm not sure if this version doesn't make it harder to read than the original. Maybe someone has a better idea for formatting the thing, the footnotes might work in a novel but not on the screen. Pay no attention to my prose, I'm not a writer, it's just intended as a placeholder.


---------


ANORAK'S INVITATION - CLAN INDIANA_CROFT ANNOTATED VERSION
Transcribed from video by sneezingpanda and thenoid57
Annotated by various clan members

SCENE 4

HALLIDAY SNAPS HIS FINGERS AGAIN AND THE VAULT DISAPPEARS. HE SHRINKS AND MORPHS INTO A SMALL BOY WEARING BROWN CORDUROYS AND A FADED T-SHIRT [1].
THE YOUNG HALLIDAY STANDS IN A CLUTTERED LIVING ROOM WITH BURNT ORANGE CARPETING, WOOD-PANELED WALLS, AND KITSCHY LATE-'70S DECOR [2]. A TELEVISION [3] SITS NEARBY, WITH A GAME CONSOLE [4] HOOKED UP TO IT.

HALLIDAY (IN CHILD'S VOICE)
This was the first videogame system I ever owned. An Atari 2600. I got it for Christmas in 1979.

HALLIDAY SITS DOWN IN FRONT OF THE CONSOLE, PICKS UP A JOYSTICK [5], AND BEGINS TO PLAY.


[1] The Muppet Show, ITV (UK) 13 September 1976 Ė 15 March 1981. The shirt was manufactured by Fruit of the Loom from 1977 to 1979. Characters featured are Kermit the Frog, Miss Piggy, Animal, Gonzo and Fozzie Bear. -3ggb3rt42
[2] Anyone been able to identify the character on the postcard under the Felix the Cat clock? -w00tan
- That's Amik the beaver, mascot of the 1976 Summer Olympics. -jaktorrentz2034
- Ya think the rainbow stripes on the beaver are a hint towards the rainbow stripes on the ZX Spectrum logo? -largymcbighuge89
- LOL @ this noob -w00tan
- gently caress this gay clan im out -largymcbighuge89
- You're out of your element! -clarenceoveur
- what does that even mean -largymcbighuge89
- That... is why you fail. -w00tan
- gently caress you all -largymbighuge89
- All right this has been fun, can we get back to serious discussion please? -jaktorrentz2034
[3] Zenith Electronics LLC, model L1310C, 21'' screen -techgod1138
[4] Atari 2600. Atari Inc., September 11, 1977 - mid-1992 -cptobvius69
[5] Atari CX40 joystick -techgod1138

hooked on Fauxnics
Dec 23, 2013


Samizdata posted:

You know, we are talking fiction here. I enjoy language as much as the next chap, but all the things you mentioned are what I read NON-fiction for.

I mean it's fine to do that but to say that fiction has no point if it can't be identified with is strikingly myopic, and I think there's a much deeper body of beautiful language in fiction. I mean what, is the only Joyce you're willing to read the letters he wrote about farts because they're non-fiction? And I know this might be contentious but an idea can be much more impactful if expressed in a story rather than a text book. I want to clarify that I don't mean to minimize non-fiction, it can be great too, and can even be great in many of the ways fiction can, it's the very limited idea you have of fiction that I take issue with. I guess you can say with non-fiction that you learned something about the real world at the end of it but if you're reading a story it's going to be the same experience whether you can, at the end, say 'wow that happened to a real guy' or not, your brain doesn't really make that distinction while processing it.

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

This is cyber bulling and I will not stand for it.


My premise for this rewrite is that I want to take the concept of enjoyment and elevate it to the level of pleasure while moving the metaphor from media to sexuality.

In the same way that Cline envisions in a world in which entertainment is consumed not for the enjoyment of it, but as an act of competition between peers, I want to posit the same for eroticism. In Cline's vision of a decadent and decaying society, the need to horde and absorb entertainment uncritically robs a person of the pleasure of the text. In the same way, I want for the availability and ease of sexual gratification to eventually rob the protagonist of a sense of emotional pleasure. Sexual activity no longer becomes a matter of pleasure or intimacy, but merely a race to achieve and experience ever more grandiose physical pleasures as a way of asserting superiority to one's peers.

In this version, Halliday, while something of silicon valley Marquis de Sade, comes to suffer an existential crisis that eventually destroys him over his loss of "want." His ability to immediately obtain any physical pleasure has left him envious of a time in which he could experience desire. The challenge of the keys in this version is to push the cunters aka "stinkyhole hunters" into ever more perverse acts of self-gratification to see if, at the zenith of onanism, one can still obtain a sense of gratification wholly separate from immediate pleasure. Namely, can the human experience persevere in the face of the totality of effortless fulfillment.

Samizdata
May 14, 2007


hooked on Fauxnics posted:

I mean it's fine to do that but to say that fiction has no point if it can't be identified with is strikingly myopic, and I think there's a much deeper body of beautiful language in fiction. I mean what, is the only Joyce you're willing to read the letters he wrote about farts because they're non-fiction? And I know this might be contentious but an idea can be much more impactful if expressed in a story rather than a text book. I want to clarify that I don't mean to minimize non-fiction, it can be great too, and can even be great in many of the ways fiction can, it's the very limited idea you have of fiction that I take issue with. I guess you can say with non-fiction that you learned something about the real world at the end of it but if you're reading a story it's going to be the same experience whether you can, at the end, say 'wow that happened to a real guy' or not, your brain doesn't really make that distinction while processing it.

Joyce doesn't count. We were talking about narrative fiction. Or are you going to be another goalpost mover with an inability to actually read words in front of you? We're talking narrative fiction in a thread about a work of narrative fiction. We are not rearchitecting the whole of literature.

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Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

This is cyber bulling and I will not stand for it.


Samizdata posted:

Joyce doesn't count. We were talking about narrative fiction.

Uh

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