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  • Locked thread
ElwoodCuse
Jan 11, 2004

we're puttin' the band back together

Wow, big offseason news already

https://twitter.com/mattmurray_30/status/1004446351269167105

Edit: since embedded tweets don't quote

https://twitter.com/WSJ/status/1004077275451678720

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Zodijackylite
Oct 18, 2005

hello bonjour, en francais we call the bread man l'homme de pain, because pain means bread and we're going to see a lot of pain this year and every nyrfan is looking forward to it and hey tony, can you wait until after my postgame interview to get on your phone? i thought you quit twitter...

I'm thinking about team who have been unable to find good goaltenders, and several organizations who seem to have found many. What goes into consistent goaltending success in an organization, beyond having a franchise netminder? GM, goaltending coach, scouts - some organizations seem apt at finding goalie after goalie.

Rangers have Lundqvist, but they also had Cam Talbot, who they fetched a solid return for while buying low on Raanta, who was also great. Pavelec was a weak stopgap, but the Rangers again found a young undrafted goalie in Alexandar Georgiev, as well as having Igor Shestyerkin in the pipeline. Capitals have been similarly successfuly in raising good goalies - Holtby, Neuvirth, Varlamov, and now Grubauer, who has been great outside the first two games of these playoffs.

Could anyone tell me what they've heard reported about how teams manage their goalie acquisition and development? Stats, coaches, scouts? I hear praise for some goalie coaches and know some get involved in scouting goalies, too, but I haven't heard anything specific.

CBJSprague24
Dec 5, 2010

another game at nationwide arena. everybody keeps asking me if they can fuck the cannon. buddy, they don't even let me fuck it



Zodijackylite posted:

I'm thinking about team who have been unable to find good goaltenders, and several organizations who seem to have found many. What goes into consistent goaltending success in an organization, beyond having a franchise netminder? GM, goaltending coach, scouts - some organizations seem apt at finding goalie after goalie.

Rangers have Lundqvist, but they also had Cam Talbot, who they fetched a solid return for while buying low on Raanta, who was also great. Pavelec was a weak stopgap, but the Rangers again found a young undrafted goalie in Alexandar Georgiev, as well as having Igor Shestyerkin in the pipeline. Capitals have been similarly successfuly in raising good goalies - Holtby, Neuvirth, Varlamov, and now Grubauer, who has been great outside the first two games of these playoffs.

Could anyone tell me what they've heard reported about how teams manage their goalie acquisition and development? Stats, coaches, scouts? I hear praise for some goalie coaches and know some get involved in scouting goalies, too, but I haven't heard anything specific.

Didn't Nashville have what seemed like an endless string of good goalies/goalies thought to be good for a while? Vokoun, Rinne, Lindback, Saros, etc.. I feel like I'm leaving one out.

stab
Feb 12, 2003

To you from failing hands we throw the torch, be yours to hold it high


CBJSprague24 posted:

Didn't Nashville have what seemed like an endless string of good goalies/goalies thought to be good for a while? Vokoun, Rinne, Lindback, Saros, etc.. I feel like I'm leaving one out.

Mike dunham

DJExile
Jun 27, 2007




Zodijackylite posted:

I'm thinking about team who have been unable to find good goaltenders, and several organizations who seem to have found many. What goes into consistent goaltending success in an organization, beyond having a franchise netminder? GM, goaltending coach, scouts - some organizations seem apt at finding goalie after goalie.

Rangers have Lundqvist, but they also had Cam Talbot, who they fetched a solid return for while buying low on Raanta, who was also great. Pavelec was a weak stopgap, but the Rangers again found a young undrafted goalie in Alexandar Georgiev, as well as having Igor Shestyerkin in the pipeline. Capitals have been similarly successfuly in raising good goalies - Holtby, Neuvirth, Varlamov, and now Grubauer, who has been great outside the first two games of these playoffs.

Could anyone tell me what they've heard reported about how teams manage their goalie acquisition and development? Stats, coaches, scouts? I hear praise for some goalie coaches and know some get involved in scouting goalies, too, but I haven't heard anything specific.

Sometimes it's as much dumb luck as anything. Scouting goaltenders is really goddamn hard to do because it's all the tougher to tell how their success in juniors/minors will translate to the NHL, if it will at all.

Ron Hextall stocked up hard on goalie prospects in what's basically a "law of averages" approach. Carter Hart's as close to a sure thing that the Flyers have had in ages, but even then it's still a roll of the dice as to how he'll perform in the big league. It's kind of funny because he almost took so many as to create a logjam, but then Stolarz's knee went out again. It created a problem in that Stolarz was pretty well set to be the Next Big Thing, which potentially left a gap between the Elliot/Neuvy tandem and whoever would be next up (likely Lyon), then Hart became a huge revelation in the WHL.

Coaching is another story though. There was understandably a lot of laughing at the Flyers taking Steve Mason from the Jackets, but Jeff Reese completely reinvented him, and he wound up having a banner year in 14-15. Reese leaving the team for reasons still unknown seemed to piss him off, and Mason was later sent to Winnipeg. Similarly, Reese did a lot to help Bobrovsky get refined and up to speed in his early years.

Levitate
Sep 30, 2005

randy newman voice

YOU'VE GOT A LAFRENIÈRE IN ME


With the Rangers, I think having Allaire is definitely a big part of it all. He has input on who they draft/sign and he works with all of them as well. Of course they're not all going to be hits but as you said they have done well developing guys

Twin Cinema
Jun 1, 2006



Playoffs are no big deal,
don't have a crap attack.


CBJSprague24 posted:

Didn't Nashville have what seemed like an endless string of good goalies/goalies thought to be good for a while? Vokoun, Rinne, Lindback, Saros, etc.. I feel like I'm leaving one out.

Vokoun and Rinne are the two big ones, but they also had Chris Mason, on top of the ones you named.

Plus,


stab posted:

Mike dunham

But I think the Wild may have had the best goalie producer of the past 20 years. Roloson, Fernandez, Backstrom, Dubnyk, and sadly, Harding.

Looking it up, Manny Fernandez did not have a good post-Wild career, possibly because he ended up on the same team as Thomas & Rask, and then no team took a flyer on him.

Spring Break My Heart
Feb 15, 2012


Teams have gotten a big wiser about using high picks on goalies. There are entire draft years where no goalies real starters in the NHL. Goalie prospects are still all over the place and you still have a lot of cases where they're eventually successful but the team that drafted them didn't get real value out of them. If you have a long term starter the value in a young goalie is really as trade fodder, and even then the market is a few teams a year. If you wanted a backup the cost to sign/trade for them isn't super high.

syzpid
Aug 9, 2014


DJExile posted:

Reese leaving the team for reasons still unknown seemed to piss him off, and Mason was later sent to Winnipeg. Similarly, Reese did a lot to help Bobrovsky get refined and up to speed in his early years.

The Flyers fired Reese because he disagreed with them over having Mason play when he wasn't healthy.

https://www.broadstreethockey.com/2015/3/6/8164737/flyers-jeff-reese-departure-steve-mason-mishandling-berube-hextall

DJExile
Jun 27, 2007




syzpid posted:

The Flyers fired Reese because he disagreed with them over having Mason play when he wasn't healthy.

https://www.broadstreethockey.com/2015/3/6/8164737/flyers-jeff-reese-departure-steve-mason-mishandling-berube-hextall

well poo poo I never knew this. Thanks :cheers:

stab
Feb 12, 2003

To you from failing hands we throw the torch, be yours to hold it high


Twin Cinema posted:

Vokoun and Rinne are the two big ones, but they also had Chris Mason, on top of the ones you named.

Plus,


But I think the Wild may have had the best goalie producer of the past 20 years. Roloson, Fernandez, Backstrom, Dubnyk, and sadly, Harding.

Looking it up, Manny Fernandez did not have a good post-Wild career, possibly because he ended up on the same team as Thomas & Rask, and then no team took a flyer on him.

He also hosed up his back pretty hard that limited his mobility

Twin Cinema
Jun 1, 2006



Playoffs are no big deal,
don't have a crap attack.


stab posted:

He also hosed up his back pretty hard that limited his mobility

I forgot about this and Wikipedia didn't tell me.

It does feel hard to believe that it's been nearly a decade since he's retired.

stab
Feb 12, 2003

To you from failing hands we throw the torch, be yours to hold it high


Twin Cinema posted:

I forgot about this and Wikipedia didn't tell me.

It does feel hard to believe that it's been nearly a decade since he's retired.

I wouldnt have known unless his brother told me, i also had blanked about it

Zodijackylite
Oct 18, 2005

hello bonjour, en francais we call the bread man l'homme de pain, because pain means bread and we're going to see a lot of pain this year and every nyrfan is looking forward to it and hey tony, can you wait until after my postgame interview to get on your phone? i thought you quit twitter...

Mitch Korn was a big part of Nashville's goaltending strategy from 98-14, right? Has his involvement with scouting/drafting/development outside of the NHL ever been talked about? I think I've heard it mentioned, but don't remember if there were specifics.

I suspect a lot of it is a seasoned goalie coach being able to identify guys who he might be able to work with. I think they are often older guys, too. Raanta was signed at 24, Talbot was signed at 22, Georgiev signed at 21, Rinne drafted at 21, Lindback drafted at 20 in the 7th round. Lots of low-risk chances, and if you can consistently identify guys like that, some of them will likely pan out.

Duckman2008
Jan 6, 2010

TFW you see Flyers goaltending.


Grimey Drawer

Zodijackylite posted:

I'm thinking about team who have been unable to find good goaltenders, and several organizations who seem to have found many. What goes into consistent goaltending success in an organization, beyond having a franchise netminder? GM, goaltending coach, scouts - some organizations seem apt at finding goalie after goalie.

Rangers have Lundqvist, but they also had Cam Talbot, who they fetched a solid return for while buying low on Raanta, who was also great. Pavelec was a weak stopgap, but the Rangers again found a young undrafted goalie in Alexandar Georgiev, as well as having Igor Shestyerkin in the pipeline. Capitals have been similarly successfuly in raising good goalies - Holtby, Neuvirth, Varlamov, and now Grubauer, who has been great outside the first two games of these playoffs.

Could anyone tell me what they've heard reported about how teams manage their goalie acquisition and development? Stats, coaches, scouts? I hear praise for some goalie coaches and know some get involved in scouting goalies, too, but I haven't heard anything specific.

In the Flyers case, it is a voodoo curse that I am convinced happened when Pelle Lindbergh crashed his car and died (RIP Pelle 🙁🙁🙁).

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

DJExile posted:

Sometimes it's as much dumb luck as anything. Scouting goaltenders is really goddamn hard to do because it's all the tougher to tell how their success in juniors/minors will translate to the NHL, if it will at all.

Ron Hextall stocked up hard on goalie prospects in what's basically a "law of averages" approach. Carter Hart's as close to a sure thing that the Flyers have had in ages, but even then it's still a roll of the dice as to how he'll perform in the big league. It's kind of funny because he almost took so many as to create a logjam, but then Stolarz's knee went out again. It created a problem in that Stolarz was pretty well set to be the Next Big Thing, which potentially left a gap between the Elliot/Neuvy tandem and whoever would be next up (likely Lyon), then Hart became a huge revelation in the WHL.

Coaching is another story though. There was understandably a lot of laughing at the Flyers taking Steve Mason from the Jackets, but Jeff Reese completely reinvented him, and he wound up having a banner year in 14-15. Reese leaving the team for reasons still unknown seemed to piss him off, and Mason was later sent to Winnipeg. Similarly, Reese did a lot to help Bobrovsky get refined and up to speed in his early years.

Matt Murray had like an 894 save percentage in his draft year, then 920+ from then on out until this year.

Goalies are voodoo.

Pornographic Memory
Dec 17, 2008


Ginette Reno posted:

Matt Murray had like an 894 save percentage in his draft year, then 920+ from then on out until this year.

Goalies are voodoo.

They also let go of Mike Bales last summer and replaced him with Mike Buckley. :tinfoil:

I don't know anything about either of those guys to be honest but I wonder if the switch in goal coaches had anything to do with the Penguins' lovely goaltending pretty much all around over the last season and playoffs.

El Gallinero Gros
Mar 17, 2010


Pornographic Memory posted:

They also let go of Mike Bales last summer and replaced him with Mike Buckley. :tinfoil:

I don't know anything about either of those guys to be honest but I wonder if the switch in goal coaches had anything to do with the Penguins' lovely goaltending pretty much all around over the last season and playoffs.

Mike Bales was not a good goaltender, but sometimes fringe guys make good coaches

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

Pornographic Memory posted:

They also let go of Mike Bales last summer and replaced him with Mike Buckley. :tinfoil:

I don't know anything about either of those guys to be honest but I wonder if the switch in goal coaches had anything to do with the Penguins' lovely goaltending pretty much all around over the last season and playoffs.

Well considering Bales went to Carolina and Darling/Ward both sucked as much as ever I wouldn't read too much into that.

Nissin Cup Nudist
Sep 3, 2011

Sleep with one eye open

We're off to Gritty Gritty land






Ginette Reno posted:

Matt Murray had like an 894 save percentage in his draft year, then 920+ from then on out until this year.

Goalies are voodoo.

Primeau Jr was sub-.900 in the USHL his draft year. His backup posted far better numbers

Primeau Jr then somehow turned into a .930 goalie at Northeastern

Jordan7hm
Feb 17, 2011






Lipstick Apathy

Pascal Leclair posted garbage numbers in junior.

And then he was garbage as a pro too.

Mage_Boy
Dec 18, 2003

This hotdog is about as real as your story Steve Simmons






Ginette Reno posted:

Well considering Bales went to Carolina and Darling/Ward both sucked as much as ever I wouldn't read too much into that.

Also, Matt Murray's father died after being ill for a while, and I'm pretty sure that would probably explain him not playing as well.

HootTheOwl
May 13, 2012

Hootin and shootin


I think it's mostly luck and the team infront of them.

MononcQc
May 29, 2007

"I believe I did, Bob."




E: Wrong thread

stab
Feb 12, 2003

To you from failing hands we throw the torch, be yours to hold it high


Gee I sure am glad that the game tying and possibly cup winning goals were scored by DSP and Eller.


Yup, real glad.



Yeah






loving FIRE BERGEVIN

Aphrodite
Jun 27, 2006



It’s not like DSP is good normally, not keeping him wasn’t a bad move.

nature6pk
May 26, 2006
Left Coast Lame-o

N: Luca
V: Sbisa

iospace
Jan 19, 2038




Vegas lives by the MAF

and dies by the MAF

Mage_Boy
Dec 18, 2003

This hotdog is about as real as your story Steve Simmons






iospace posted:

Vegas lives by the MAF

and dies by the MAF

At least JawKnee doesn't have to worry about Sbisa hunting him down.

Kilza
Oct 3, 2013



Hockey is bad and nothing good comes out of it, thanks for listening. Fire Chiarelli already

Lessail
Apr 1, 2011

:cry::cry:
tell me how vgk aren't playing like shit again
:cry::cry:
p.s. help my grapes are so sour!


In the end it was just a nice little story with a bad ending

nature6pk
May 26, 2006
Left Coast Lame-o

If you can't appreciate the majesty of the Inaugural season of the Knights ending on a brutal Luca Sbisa turnover, I'm not not sure what to tell you

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

Kilza posted:

Hockey is bad and nothing good comes out of it, thanks for listening. Fire Chiarelli already

Mcdavid is gonna be the new Ovechkin and we're all gonna be feeling sad for him until he finally wins a Cup at age 32*


*playing for the Rangers

ThinkTank
Oct 23, 2007



Fleury going from being pencilled into the HHOF to having one of the worst cup finals goaltending performances I can remember was great too.

Good Soldier Svejk
Jul 5, 2010



ThinkTank posted:

Fleury going from being pencilled into the HHOF to having one of the worst cup finals goaltending performances I can remember was great too.

If you weren't expecting that you don't know MAF. I say that as a fan that loves him

Cocaine Bear
Nov 4, 2011

ACAB



Good run, Vegas. I believed.

Sucks you'll never be back.

ThinkTank
Oct 23, 2007



Good Soldier Svejk posted:

If you weren't expecting that you don't know MAF. I say that as a fan that loves him

Oh I believed. I really did.

Aphrodite
Jun 27, 2006



ThinkTank posted:

Fleury going from being pencilled into the HHOF to having one of the worst cup finals goaltending performances I can remember was great too.

He was barely a .5 on the Luongo scale.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

ThinkTank posted:

Fleury going from being pencilled into the HHOF to having one of the worst cup finals goaltending performances I can remember was great too.

Luckily Sully wisely recognized when to pull the plug on Maf last year after the hot streak ended

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Lessail
Apr 1, 2011

:cry::cry:
tell me how vgk aren't playing like shit again
:cry::cry:
p.s. help my grapes are so sour!


JoelJoel posted:

Good run, Vegas. I believed.

Sucks you'll never be back.

whoah watch out fella i get yelled at when i say this

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