|
Bakeneko posted:I liked the video for the most part, but I can’t say I agreed with the stuff towards the end regarding the villains. I think his bigger point was that having your antagonists be extremist members of a systemically oppressed race agitating outside the system because they are still looked down on and discriminated against despite recent legal strides is pretty yikes, particularly coming from two white guys. Granted the writers seemed to realize this too since they later have the villains pivot to just wanting to murder everybody.
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 21:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2024 07:59 |
|
|
hbomb you're playing Ultra while talking about how RWBY references anime i see you I SEE YOU MOTHERFUCKER
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 21:20
|
|
|
Bakeneko posted:I liked the video for the most part, but I can’t say I agreed with the stuff towards the end regarding the villains.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 21:22
|
|
|
Sydin posted:I think his bigger point was that having your antagonists be extremist members of a systemically oppressed race agitating outside the system because they are still looked down on and discriminated against despite recent legal strides is pretty yikes, particularly coming from two white guys. Granted the writers seemed to realize this too since they later have the villains pivot to just wanting to murder everybody.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 21:26
|
|
|
But he also didn't appear to write any of the actual dialogue scenes that made it bad. I don't think that the brought strokes or action scenes he did work on would need to be edited that much if the talky bits around them actually worked. In the same way that xmen working or not working as minority metaphors in different movie entries rarely has any basis in the wikipedia level plot summary or their action seens.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 21:27
|
|
|
Terrible Opinions posted:But he also didn't appear to write any of the actual dialogue scenes that made it bad. I don't think that the brought strokes or action scenes he did work on would need to be edited that much if the talky bits around them actually worked. In the same way that xmen working or not working as minority metaphors in different movie entries rarely has any basis in the wikipedia level plot summary or their action seens. He didn't write the dialogue but the 'extremist anti-racism group' angle was presented in Blake's trailer which was basically a solo project by him, and that trailer clearly presents it as Blake leaving a group she feels has gone too far. Again there's definitely issues with most of the dialogue but Sydin was criticizing the basic premise.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 21:31
|
|
|
JordanKai posted:Shipping is alright in my book, but there are definitely a handful of shows that completely fell off the deep end in the process of trying to cater to people who love shipping. Agents of SHIELD is the main example I can think of. Season 3 or 4 (can't remember which) collapsed in on itself trying to give each of the most popular ships an episode of their own. It was really bad. Which one? Hive, Maveth, Simmons being pulled to another planet by that rock portal? (Season 3) Or Ghost Rider, AIDA, Darkhold, LMDs? (Season 4) I don't remember either one of them being overly dense on shipping comparatively.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 21:37
|
|
|
Endorph posted:He didn't write the dialogue but the 'extremist anti-racism group' angle was presented in Blake's trailer which was basically a solo project by him, and that trailer clearly presents it as Blake leaving a group she feels has gone too far. Though watching hbomb's video did remind me of how infuriating the Dark Knight Rises was for basically the same reasons but without the excuse of being made by first time writers.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 21:44
|
|
|
^ Yeah Dark Knight Rises did the same "introduce a villain who actually has a really good loving point, but then that might mean people wouldn't side with our status quo hero so let's just suddenly also make them Dick Dastardly who wants to kill everybody for uh, reasons, so that the audience will root for the hero again." Endorph posted:He didn't write the dialogue but the 'extremist anti-racism group' angle was presented in Blake's trailer which was basically a solo project by him, and that trailer clearly presents it as Blake leaving a group she feels has gone too far. I'm skeptical the White Fang could have worked even with incredibly talented writers, so yeah maybe I am attacking the basic premise a bit. But yes you're right the race of the writers is irrelevant and there isn't really as clear a line between what was Oum's and what was not like Hbomb likes to think there is. It's also irrelevant because regardless the execution was abysmal and the ultimate message that comes across regarding racism is... not great.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 21:44
|
|
|
I will say in general hbomberguys video seems to want to separate the good stuff as monty oum and the bad stuff as everyone else, when oum was absolutely into all the basic anime trope repetition and stuff. I get not wanting to insult a dead guy but theres a definite factor of like, for the most part oun was fully onboard for the stuff he was around to oversee. And I think 'how far is too far' and what the best ways of bringing about change are is a really natural conflict for a story about discrimination to explore, and I dont think siding against violent rebellion is inherently bad, its a question of what theyre rebelling against and how the rebels are portrayed compared to the systems of power. rwbys issue is that only one of the protagonidts has anything at all to do with the racism angle and the show has basically no worldbuilding so it has a really hard time portraying the situation with any nuance or understanding of what life is like on the ground for an average faunus, so its hard to get a feel for what the white fang should/shouldnt be doing, even when the series starts to delve into them more in later seasons
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 21:57
|
|
|
Dragonatrix posted:That was kinda cute and neat. It helps that those names actually work in that context, since apparently RWBY fans are inexplicably smarter than every other fandom ever. Managed to avoid just taking half of one character's name and then half of another's and mash them together leaving to something that's the bad kind of dumb mess at worst and incoherent gibberish on average. at least you can puzzle out the pairing if they're smashing names together. i remember gundam wing shipping used their pilot numbers and the only one i can remember is 01x02 being heero and duo because heero was the main protagonist, so he's number one and duo = two. and then i would get the other gundam pilots mixed up because i have no idea who was pilot 3-5 with wufei, quatre, and trowa.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 21:58
|
|
|
Oh my god is Heroes in Crisis bad and it's only Part 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vp2nn-s8mCU
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 22:00
|
|
|
Sydin posted:^ I don’t see the contradiction in that. There’s nothing stopping someone from having a political opinion you agree with and also being a crazed murderer. In the real world people have killed in the name of, for example, religions that explicitly preached peace and forgiveness. Sometimes a person’s stated cause is only important to them insofar as it provides a way to justify their evil to themselves and their followers.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 22:03
|
|
|
The White Fang, as written, come across like the writers were cribbing off of the Vox Populi storyline in Bioshock Infinite. Which, for exactly the same reasons and more, was very, very dumb writing.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 22:04
|
|
|
Splash Attack posted:at least you can puzzle out the pairing if they're smashing names together. i remember gundam wing shipping used their pilot numbers and the only one i can remember is 01x02 being heero and duo because heero was the main protagonist, so he's number one and duo = two. and then i would get the other gundam pilots mixed up because i have no idea who was pilot 3-5 with wufei, quatre, and trowa. Heero = hii, japanese for one Duo = italian for two Trowa = trois, french for three Quatre = french for four Wufei = wu, chinese for five Zechs = sechs, german for six Treize = french for thirteen
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 22:05
|
|
|
I would argue that the Vox Populi are the dumbest of those particular fictional organizations. Especially because the authors didnt even have enough conviction to stick by those stupid writing choices, and instead recon the motives of the only named Vox member in the DLC.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 22:06
|
|
|
Bakeneko posted:I don’t see the contradiction in that. There’s nothing stopping someone from having a political opinion you agree with and also being a crazed murderer. In the real world people have killed in the name of, for example, religions that explicitly preached peace and forgiveness. Sometimes a person’s stated cause is only important to them insofar as it provides a way to justify their evil to themselves and their followers.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 22:09
|
|
|
BFC posted:The White Fang, as written, come across like the writers were cribbing off of the Vox Populi storyline in Bioshock Infinite. Which, for exactly the same reasons and more, was very, very dumb writing. They feel more like the Equalists from LoK, which is really fitting since the Equalists were also a really poorly written extremist group who call out very real issues with the systems of power in their world, but then whoops turns out their leader is actually evil and once Korra punches him out a window the entire movement dissolves with none of their demands met besides the bending council being replaced with a popularly elected president whom we never see do anything to improve the lot of non-benders. Bakeneko posted:I don’t see the contradiction in that. There’s nothing stopping someone from having a political opinion you agree with and also being a crazed murderer. In the real world people have killed in the name of, for example, religions that explicitly preached peace and forgiveness. Sometimes a person’s stated cause is only important to them insofar as it provides a way to justify their evil to themselves and their followers. I'm sure it can be done well but in Dark Knight Rises it was not done well imo. It just came off as lazy writing to up the stakes and put Batman squarely in the right. It also doesn't help that the entire trilogy has some really weird fascist undertones.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 22:09
|
|
|
My main problem with hbomb's video is that while most of his criticism is valid, he ends with the equivalent of "and that's why this show sucks and it'll never be better" while completely ignoring the remaining four seasons. He's annoyed at the equivalent of half a 24-episode season of anime in length. Hell, even his two hour video is longer than the entire first season. RT got a writer with experience for season 6 onwards, and it shows, so there is someone in there somewhere listening, even if hbomb refuses to believe the writers can accept criticism. It's valid to dislike the show, it's tremendously flawed, but the tone of his video is just weird.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 22:11
|
|
|
Terrible Opinions posted:I would argue that the Vox Populi are the dumbest of those particular fictional organizations. Especially because the authors didnt even have enough conviction to stick by those stupid writing choices, and instead recon the motives of the only named Vox member in the DLC. But hey at least it never implies, let alone states outright, that Fitzroy is a race supremacist. That might call into question how many people of the organization are acting in self-defense and/or against the institution of slavery. You know, what RWBY does. Sydin posted:They feel more like the Equalists from LoK, which is really fitting since the Equalists were also a really poorly written extremist group who call out very real issues with the systems of power in their world, but then whoops turns out their leader is actually evil and once Korra punches him out a window the entire movement dissolves with none of their demands met besides the bending council being replaced with a popularly elected president whom we never see do anything to improve the lot of non-benders. Gwen fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Jul 28, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 22:14
|
|
|
Splash Attack posted:at least you can puzzle out the pairing if they're smashing names together. i remember gundam wing shipping used their pilot numbers and the only one i can remember is 01x02 being heero and duo because heero was the main protagonist, so he's number one and duo = two. and then i would get the other gundam pilots mixed up because i have no idea who was pilot 3-5 with wufei, quatre, and trowa. Well, they're all named numbers in other languages, so it's still silly but it helps. Quatre is 'four' in French, there's Une (11), Noine (9), Treize (13), Zechs (6). Older fanfiction websites had prohibitively short character limits on story summeries, so the shorter ship names were encouraged.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 22:15
|
|
|
lunar detritus posted:RT got a writer with experience for season 6 onwards, and it shows, so there is someone in there somewhere listening, even if hbomb refuses to believe the writers can accept criticism. I don't know what you would call a literal genie popping out of nowhere to explain the plot to the viewers but I'm not sure I would call it "good".
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 22:17
|
|
|
Frozen Teardrop goes nuts with the number naming to the point where it becomes distracting. Also Frozen Teardrop is really bad, for the love of god don't read it and just imagine your own epilogue for the Wing cast.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 22:19
|
|
|
lunar detritus posted:RT got a writer with experience for season 6 onwards, and it shows Does it though? I'm not sure i'd call a 3 way fight where one side fights side by side with a literal serial killer (2/3), gets his friend/now rival (the 3rd party of the fight) killed, then blames someone entirely not present for the fact he directly caused that dudes death good writing.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 22:20
|
|
|
lunar detritus posted:RT got a writer with experience for season 6 onwards, and it shows, so there is someone in there somewhere listening, even if hbomb refuses to believe the writers can accept criticism.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 22:22
|
|
|
Stormgale posted:Does it though? I actually agree with that.  Terrible Opinions posted:Asking someone to wait for season 6 of anything for it to "get good" is a pretty ridiculous ask. I also agree with this. I just was complaining about hbomb's conclusion, not saying that it's worth it for anyone to actually go watch RWBY.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 22:26
|
|
|
RWBY really picks up once the party gets out of Midgar.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 22:27
|
|
|
I ultimately just think 'and also the writers are babies who refuse to accept criticism' is a really bad thing for a youtube video to say even if true because its basically rolling against twitter users' sanity checks for whether they decide to go harass writers because Youtube Man said they were bad people. not saying hes organizing a campaign of harassment or anything lol just think its better to focus on the work itselfSydin posted:Frozen Teardrop goes nuts with the number naming to the point where it becomes distracting.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 22:30
|
|
|
I used to think it was really weird that The Dark Knight Rises just throws out all the moral grey of the first two movies and have a straight up good guy cop vs evil poor thug army battle at the end, but I'm not so sure that's surprising anymore when the first movie has Batman declaring that purposefully not saving someone isn't killing them.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 22:31
|
|
|
Endorph posted:I ultimately just think 'and also the writers are babies who refuse to accept criticism' is a really bad thing for a youtube video to say even if true because its basically rolling against twitter users' sanity checks for whether they decide to go harass writers because Youtube Man said they were bad people. not saying hes organizing a campaign of harassment or anything lol just think its better to focus on the work itself When writers refuse to accept criticism then it affects the work. You can't separate the work from that when it's directly influenced by that. Also I don't think it's fair to blame Youtube Man for the wild and unpredictable actions of Twitter users in any capacity.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 22:34
|
|
|
It is really hard to take the "NO MORE DEAD COPS" scene from The Dark Knight seriously in this day and age, let alone in loving Gotham City.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 22:34
|
|
|
Kaiser Mazoku posted:When writers refuse to accept criticism then it affects the work. You can't separate the work from that when it's directly influenced by that.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 22:37
|
|
|
Kaiser Mazoku posted:I think the main issue is that the plight of the faunus is more talked about than it's shown (the most we see is that guy tugging on the rabbit girl's ear), which can make the faunus villains seem more disproportionately "evil" than they should, rather than just desperate and fed up with their oppression. The faunus get some more focus post-season 3, when Blake goes back to her home that's on a faunus island where we meet her parents, who were the original "peaceful" leaders of the White Fang. You get some backstory on another White Fang member that was friends/crushing on Blake, too, who could pass as human but snapped after her parents were killed in a mining accident and the mean human girls she hung out with were all racist about the incident. Now, the problem here is it's just furthering the problem that there is real oppression and racism that harms the faunus but also doesn't want to bring the story down too hard with real-world racism issues, so it just kind of digs in deeper with the new White Fang leadership being the "wrong kind" of people agitating for equality and decency. There is also some more stuff about how Weiss' family business uses them as disposable labor, but the show hasn't really seemed interested in digging into that too deeply either. lunar detritus posted:My main problem with hbomb's video is that while most of his criticism is valid, he ends with the equivalent of "and that's why this show sucks and it'll never be better" while completely ignoring the remaining four seasons. He's annoyed at the equivalent of half a 24-episode season of anime in length. Hell, even his two hour video is longer than the entire first season. Hbomb acknowledges a few times that the issues with the post season 3 are different from seasons 1-3, and also complex enough that they'd need their own separate video to dig into. What we got was exactly what I'd expected over the material he covered. If I had to guess, season 4 onward slipping into uneven pacing problems where poo poo tends to mostly happen in short bursts at the very end of the season, the way it keeps teasing Yang and Blake getting together but is really dragging it out, more milquetoast, half-baked political statements that try to sound more profound than they are, and Salem having a kind of dumb origin story would cover most of the big issues.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 22:37
|
|
|
Arcsquad12 posted:It is really hard to take the "NO MORE DEAD COPS" scene from The Dark Knight seriously in this day and age, let alone in loving Gotham City. As much as I love the Nolan Batman movies, he definitely overglorifies cops too much, especially when you consider that Batman's whole deal is that he took up the mantle because cops are useless and corrupt. Endorph posted:I wasn't blaming him I just don't think its all that helpful Fair. I still think it's completely valid to bring up the writers' famous stubbornness when analyzing RWBY, though.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 22:38
|
|
|
Kaiser Mazoku posted:When writers refuse to accept criticism then it affects the work. You can't separate the work from that when it's directly influenced by that. YouTube man has a big audience that is influenced by them. Just look at when Contra called out a bunch of sub 100 follower Twitter accounts in her callout culture video, and lo and behold, a bunch of her fans swarmed them. I'm not convinced popular Youtubers are just completely oblivious of what happens when they name people in their videos as being terrible in some way.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 22:41
|
|
|
Nuns with Guns posted:The faunus get some more focus post-season 3, when Blake goes back to her home that's on a faunus island where we meet her parents, who were the original "peaceful" leaders of the White Fang. You get some backstory on another White Fang member that was friends/crushing on Blake, too, who could pass as human but snapped after her parents were killed in a mining accident and the mean human girls she hung out with were all racist about the incident. Now, the problem here is it's just furthering the problem that there is real oppression and racism that harms the faunus but also doesn't want to bring the story down too hard with real-world racism issues, so it just kind of digs in deeper with the new White Fang leadership being the "wrong kind" of people agitating for equality and decency. There is also some more stuff about how Weiss' family business uses them as disposable labor, but the show hasn't really seemed interested in digging into that too deeply either. See, if they wanted to do an anti-racism thing, then they should have gone all-in. Kids can handle a lot more than adults think they can. Just because a show is "for kids" doesn't mean you have to dumb things down. I wish more writers would realize this. Roth posted:YouTube man has a big audience that is influenced by them. Just look at when Contra called out a bunch of sub 100 follower Twitter accounts in her callout culture video, and lo and behold, a bunch of her fans swarmed them. He didn't personally insult them or call them bad people. He said that they had a hard time taking criticism, which is true and has been noticed by many others before.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 22:43
|
|
|
Roth posted:YouTube man has a big audience that is influenced by them. Just look at when Contra called out a bunch of sub 100 follower Twitter accounts in her callout culture video, and lo and behold, a bunch of her fans swarmed them. I mean the problem with contra calling out 100 follower twitter accounts is the disproportionate effect and response. If this was early monty or Rooster teeth at the start I could see the concern but? It's like saying someone is bad for calling out J.K. Rowling.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 22:43
|
|
|
I watched the entire RWBY critique and one of the bits that really got to me was Ruby herself being this enthusiastic, passionate weapons designer at the start of the show. It reminds me of Goku, the granddaddy of a lot of fighting anime heroes, absolutely loving martial arts and exciting fights, and it's kind of baffling that for everything else the writers took from other anime, they never connected the dots on that one and just let it collect dust. Ruby herself was so lacking in character that I probably would have liked her more had she just been teenage girl Goku with a different driving passion.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 22:51
|
|
|
Hbomb specifically says that constructive criticism is ignored and unconstructive criticism is mocked, which discourages contacting Rooster Teeth regardless of whether the criticism is constructive or not. It's a section on how you can't force someone to be a better creator by arguing with them on Twitter.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 22:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2024 07:59 |
|
|
Maggie's put up the next part of her Snyder critique: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gY7EnEuqb7M
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 22:55
|
|
