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Alaois
Feb 7, 2012

D U S T M A N


bobjr posted:

My favorite Bleach moment was when Kubo announced the year of Chad then never had Chad really show up or do anything

depending on when in bleach's publication this was, "not appearing in Bleach" may have been the best thing to happen to him

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Andrast
Apr 21, 2010



Reading Bleach and making GBS threads on it in the bleach thread in adtrw was very fun.

it's not like the average bleach took more than a minute to read since nothing happened and everything was just white backgrounds

Kay Kessler
May 9, 2013



Alaois posted:

man, remember Bleach.

they didn't even let that poo poo come to an end, i'm pretty sure they figured that Kubo was just using that poo poo as welfare by that point

Considering the fact that working on the manga was literally killing him, I somehow doubt he was using it as a meal ticket.

Alaois
Feb 7, 2012

D U S T M A N


Kay Kessler posted:

Considering the fact that working on the manga was literally killing him, I somehow doubt he was using it as a meal ticket.

how

what

the gently caress

Augus
Mar 9, 2015

BORN TO DIE
WORLD IS A FUCK
Kill Em All 2010
I am trash mon
410,757,864,530 DEAD COPS


the pacing in the anime was so bad that when aizen pulled out the big “I planned the whole plot of the series” reveal in the anime it then went into a multi-episode clip reel going through basically the entirety of the show with occasional shots of Aizen sitting in a chair watching it on a tv screen

the pacing in the manga wasn’t even good to begin with

TheFlyingLlama
Jan 2, 2013

You really think someone would do that? Just go on the internet and be a llama?





https://twitter.com/AshitanoGin/sta...833921396101120


The manga industry is seriously hosed up



EDIT: Near the end of the bleach run he also missed a lot of cons because of "bad colds". I don't know if he ever talked about what he actually had publicly but drawing a weekly manga series for 15 years will gently caress just about anyone's health up seriously

Clip-On Fedora
Feb 20, 2011




Nuns with Guns posted:

Grant Morrison's Batman run continued even after DC editorial was compelled by some higher corporate authority to reset the DC universe with the nu52. Him and Geoff John's Green Lantern were specifically in some nega zone where nobody could tell how much of the prior series were still canon because the assumed timeline had compressed so far down. It was bad, but that was totally because of bizarre corporate fuckery on an unpredictable level nobody had time to plan for.

The Decimation also didn't kill off the mutants, it just depowered them. District X got a respectable 19-issue run, but being a niche thing going for that long I imagine the sales figures were slipping. X-Factor was fine taking up shop in depowered Mutant Town right after the Decimation and had a pretty long-running series out of that.

Heroes Reborn was a catastrophe born out of Marvel's desperate bid to emerge from bankruptcy mostly intact and I don't think a single person would defend it. Unless you mean some other embarrassing decision of 90s Marvel Editorial?

e-


Marvel and DC treat their tertiary teen superheroes like fresh lambs to slaughter in events, which is hosed, yes, but those aren't teen heroes headlining well-received solo series or the leads on team books.

And that's the issue in a nutshell, isn't it? If a character isn't Hal Jordan or Wolverine, they don't matter and their stories don't matter. You can argue about who is and isn't a legitimate character or you can argue about sales, but this is a legitimate issue that pisses people off, and makes them give up on superhero comics.

Sydin
Oct 29, 2011

Another rainy day commute





Yeah Kubo was having a ton of health issues from stress and overwork during the later parts of Bleach. An oft told untruth is that Bleach was canceled but according to an interview Kubo gave after it ended that wasn't the case: he decided to wrap it up early because of all of his health issues and ended it with the blessing of WSJ. He even apparently gave them a year's notice, which health problems aside makes the incredibly dogshit pacing of the last 50 chapters even funnier.

Jamie Faith
Jan 13, 2020

Y2K girl


I can enjoy BLEACH on a superficial level. BLEACH is cool. But it is only "cool". There's no depth to it. No nuance in the storytelling. Just Tite Kubo throwing fuckin whatever into the story and hoping it works. All BLEACH has to offer is cool anime people with cool powers doing cool fights with cool music. Nothing else. Textbook style over substance. It's probably more fun to watch the AMVs people make of it then actually watch the whole show but I can still enjoy it despite the extremely frustrating deus ex machinas and endless new characters being introduced.

IronicDongz posted:

there's an actual difference between living people and spirits and death means something(the spirit world being full of 'spirits' who all eat and breath and die and are essentially just regular humans, just in fantasy feudal japan, sucks really bad)

Yeah the story and the lore/world are hosed up tho. This is actually one of my biggest pet peeves in fiction. When the afterlife is pretty much just "life 2.0". If people can still die, then they're still mortal then its not even really an afterlife? It's such a boring and lazy way to portray the afterlife. So much fiction does this. DOOM does this too. The demons are functionally just aliens. They're flesh and blood creatures you can kill with bullets and rockets.

Imagine all the interesting stuff you could do if you took the concept of the afterlife seriously. Like how weird and different would it be existing not as a flesh and blood person but a soul? A spiritual body with no bones? What would a society where everyone lives forever look like? How would a war where every soldier on both sides is immortal be fought? The possibilites are endless.


Ive always wanted to make a video game exploring this concept sooooo uh original idea do not steal.

Clip-On Fedora
Feb 20, 2011




Jamie Faith posted:

I can enjoy BLEACH on a superficial level. BLEACH is cool. But it is only "cool". There's no depth to it. No nuance in the storytelling. Just Tite Kubo throwing fuckin whatever into the story and hoping it works. All BLEACH has to offer is cool anime people with cool powers doing cool fights with cool music. Nothing else. Textbook style over substance. It's probably more fun to watch the AMVs people make of it then actually watch the whole show but I can still enjoy it despite the extremely frustrating deus ex machinas and endless new characters being introduced.


Yeah the story and the lore/world are hosed up tho. This is actually one of my biggest pet peeves in fiction. When the afterlife is pretty much just "life 2.0". If people can still die, then they're still mortal then its not even really an afterlife? It's such a boring and lazy way to portray the afterlife. So much fiction does this. DOOM does this too. The demons are functionally just aliens. They're flesh and blood creatures you can kill with bullets and rockets.

Imagine all the interesting stuff you could do if you took the concept of the afterlife seriously. Like how weird and different would it be existing not as a flesh and blood person but a soul? A spiritual body with no bones? What would a society where everyone lives forever look like? How would a war where every soldier on both sides is immortal be fought? The possibilites are endless.


Ive always wanted to make a video game exploring this concept sooooo uh original idea do not steal.

Grim Fandango sounds like it would be right up your alley.

Seemlar
Jun 17, 2002


TheFlyingLlama posted:

The manga industry is seriously hosed up

I remember some article recently mentioning how One Piece's author because he's so buried in his work just outright lives separately from his wife and children and gets to see them once a week at most

If that guy of all people can't leverage his success into decent work-life balance what hope does anyone in that industry have

Alaois
Feb 7, 2012

D U S T M A N


Clip-On Fedora posted:

And that's the issue in a nutshell, isn't it? If a character isn't Hal Jordan or Wolverine, they don't matter and their stories don't matter. You can argue about who is and isn't a legitimate character or you can argue about sales, but this is a legitimate issue that pisses people off, and makes them give up on superhero comics.

i will say i've given up on more video games than comic books due to this issue so it's not something unique to superhero comics either

Jamie Faith
Jan 13, 2020

Y2K girl


Clip-On Fedora posted:

Grim Fandango sounds like it would be right up your alley.

Ooh I've never played Grim Fandango before but I'll definitely check it out. Thanks for the rec!

FuturePastNow
May 19, 2014




I liked Bleach

RareAcumen
Dec 28, 2012






bobjr posted:

My favorite Bleach moment was when Kubo announced the year of Chad then never had Chad really show up or do anything

The Virgin Chad vs the Chad Ichigo

Mokinokaro
Sep 11, 2001

At the end of everything, hold onto anything




Fun Shoe

Endorph posted:

jojos is isnanely easy to get into though. you read it. thats easy.

It also has quite a few decent jumping on points unlike some long running manga.

JustaDamnFool
Mar 2, 2019


This is a weird personal take thing but the idea that comic book characters like batman will be around until I die sorta puts me off ever getting involved with them, there's an appeal in knowing that you can engage with an idea or a character and then be properly done with it.


Jamie Faith posted:

Imagine all the interesting stuff you could do if you took the concept of the afterlife seriously. Like how weird and different would it be existing not as a flesh and blood person but a soul? A spiritual body with no bones? What would a society where everyone lives forever look like? How would a war where every soldier on both sides is immortal be fought? The possibilites are endless.

I've not gotten really far into it, but I've heard Planescape Torment fucks around in this space a bit.

DeafNote
Jun 4, 2014

Only Happy When It Rains


Bleach is marvelous because you just cannot look away despite the inane and downright bizarre plot development that happens before you.
The characters are (mostly) fun enough to keep me engaged.

I will say the start of his final arc showed a lot of promise. But somewhere around the halfway point it changed back into badly paced endless fighting.
Looking above, I think that must have been the point where Kubo got literally sick of it.
(But he really should not have given us 3 volume long fights then. His boss rush arc was even more padded than Shaman Kings)

SpaceCommie
Oct 2, 2008

I'm escaping to the one place that hasn't been corrupted by Capitalism ...

SPACE!



Roth posted:

Bleach is great because there's a part where Kenpachi gets a power up by using Kendo

His second powerup was being killed over and over until he realised he could finally go all out.

After which he kills his opponent, who's power is anything they imagine becoming real, because when they imagined they were stronger than Kenpachi their body couldn't take it and they just died.

They he got knocked out so the Protagonist could show up and I refuse to read any further.

BFC
Aug 17, 2011



Mokinokaro posted:

It also has quite a few decent jumping on points unlike some long running manga.
Parts 1, 3, and 7 are all really fairly good starting points. Also for the record western comics that are guaranteed to finish have way more appeal to me than ongoing, never ending comics.

Oxxidation
Jul 22, 2007


Seemlar posted:

I remember some article recently mentioning how One Piece's author because he's so buried in his work just outright lives separately from his wife and children and gets to see them once a week at most

If that guy of all people can't leverage his success into decent work-life balance what hope does anyone in that industry have

the manga industry (and most if not all other creative industries) self-select for a work ethic that is indistinguishable from mental illness

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014




How come they don't mirror mangos reading them backwards sucks especially physically.

Nuns with Guns
Jul 23, 2010

....?


Clip-On Fedora posted:

And that's the issue in a nutshell, isn't it? If a character isn't Hal Jordan or Wolverine, they don't matter and their stories don't matter. You can argue about who is and isn't a legitimate character or you can argue about sales, but this is a legitimate issue that pisses people off, and makes them give up on superhero comics.

I can read the full runs of Gwenpool and Cassandra Cain's Batgirl, or read all the appearances of Ystin the Shining Knight and Stephanie Brown and still enjoy them and not feel like they need to matter to some massive status quo. That is the appeal of following smaller characters: their stories are more contained and accessible because there aren't thousands of back issues to trawl through. They were engaging self-contained adventures. It does suck when a series ends and new writers or status quos poo poo all over them. Cass and Stephanie got dumped on pretty bad for a long time, and there was also a lot of barely disguised misogyny in how DC responded to the female fans of those characters asking when they'd come back and not be written like garbage (or also the racism in the case of Cass.) But like Roth mentioned, the wheel turned and now they're back to being in a better status quo again with better writers.

It's okay to be turned off by the fact that there's not some grounded, irreversible continuity in the two big shared superhero universes. I don't think that invalidates the stories that are there when people enjoy the ones happening the moment. The comic nerds who are most deeply invested in the TRUE TIMELINE are usually the insufferable gatekeepers who hate any change like having X-23 pick up the Wolverine mantle for a couple of years or Lady Thor anyway.

The underlying misogyny, racial bigotry, homophobia, and transphobia are still a problem in comics, too. I guess on the plus side DC was finally embarrassed into firing the sexual predator on the Superman editorial team a couple years ago? That recent wave of discourse shows there's still plenty of people both Marvel and DC, as well as Dark Horse, IDW, Boom, etc. could sweep out.

Doctor Spaceman
Jul 6, 2010

"Everyone's entitled to their point of view, but that's seriously a weird one."


Endorph posted:

like i just want to go 'i want to read this' and pick up something and read it from beginning to end and experience a complete story. this is not an experience i have been able to figure out how to get from batman despite trying since i watched the justice league cartoon when i was 12.

Year One.

I think the problem is as much directing readers to appropriate books as it is the books themselves because Batman - Year One is about as good an answer to the question as could possibly exist.

JustaDamnFool posted:

This is a weird personal take thing but the idea that comic book characters like batman will be around until I die sorta puts me off ever getting involved with them, there's an appeal in knowing that you can engage with an idea or a character and then be properly done with it.
Morrison's Batman run features the phrase "BATMAN AND ROBIN WILL NEVER DIE".

Initially it's used as a defiant rallying cry and to suggest that someone will always pick up the mantle (indeed the first time it appears the Batman and Robin who are saying it are not the people who originally had the titles at the start of the story). Later it gets used on a more metatextual level to suggest that DC will never willingly stop publishing the books despite how natural an end it will be.

And then Bruce Wayne winks at the reader while Gordon talks about the next big event.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



Groovelord Neato posted:

How come they don't mirror mangos reading them backwards sucks especially physically.
It creates more problems than it solves. Wonder if they ever had to mirror a Detective Conan case that hinged on the culprit being left-handed

Nuns with Guns
Jul 23, 2010

....?


When you take art that's drawn with lines of action going in one direction and flip it so it's facing the other way, it's going to end up looking super unbalanced and disconcerting to the eye. You'd need a lot of redraws and messy edits to individual panels that are more trouble than they're worth and disrupt the flow of action panel-by-panel.

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014




Reading backwards sucks though.

Augus
Mar 9, 2015

BORN TO DIE
WORLD IS A FUCK
Kill Em All 2010
I am trash mon
410,757,864,530 DEAD COPS


Groovelord Neato posted:

How come they don't mirror mangos reading them backwards sucks especially physically.

Mr Phillby
Apr 8, 2009

~TRAVIS~

That Batman comic I read was the one with a new superhero called Gotham came to Gotham and he was really powerful but then he got a himself a tragic backstory and went nuts. I think his sister talked him down and they were just some rich kids that had bought super powers somehow?

It was also in that very modern 'decompressed' style where everything takes ages to happen but it also felt like it was skipping over important bits of the plot.

Like there was a page with batman doing stuff on different days in different weather and it was because of some sort of... seasonal weather bomb? Then he had to dive into a lake to disarm it but he did it on friday when it was set to winter I guess? And alfred was all like 'no you'll die' but batman didn't die because he doesn't need to breathe. All the while I was just going, who set this and why?

If thats considered a good jumping on point I guess I don't want to jump on afterall sorry.

I do read other western stuff like Saga seems good a couple of volumes in. Also Bone is a very good self contained story that I have in an enormous single volume release.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



Groovelord Neato posted:

Reading backwards sucks though.
You get used to it. And you have to learn to read panels vertically rather than horizontally anyway

Doctor Spaceman
Jul 6, 2010

"Everyone's entitled to their point of view, but that's seriously a weird one."


Mr Phillby posted:

Like there was a page with batman doing stuff on different days in different weather and it was because of some sort of... seasonal weather bomb? Then he had to dive into a lake to disarm it but he did it on friday when it was set to winter I guess? And alfred was all like 'no you'll die' but batman didn't die because he doesn't need to breathe. All the while I was just going, who set this and why?

That was meant as a short story to signify that things were going to be different due to the new creative team (hence the focus on time and change). It was a mistake to put it at the beginning of the book.

The Gotham / Gotham Girl stuff was the actual start of the story arc.

Nuns with Guns
Jul 23, 2010

....?



This is the worst batman comic I've ever read

IronicDongz
Aug 18, 2013

there he goes

Groovelord Neato posted:

Reading backwards sucks though.
it takes like 10 minutes to get used to

Trojan Kaiju
Feb 13, 2012




When I was like 8 or 9 I read a whole volume of Yu Yu Hakusho backwards not realizing my mistake and frankly I still enjoyed it.

This isn't really adding much to the conversation it's just a funny little anecdote.

Insurrectionist
May 21, 2007


I've read manga for 15 years and rarely read comics (just European stuff/indies) and right to left is my default comic reading direction now. I grew up on European comics too so it's not just a 'first experience' thing, you just get used to what you consume. That said I basically immediately adjust without any problem, except whenever there's a western comic that's aping manga stylistically but is still written left to right which has frequently resulted in my brain getting fried trying to figure out how to read it.

I remember a few times which had a combination of really bad paneling and just completely awkward stilted conversation that the correct reading order didn't make much sense. And though the wrong one also didn't make sense it didn't really make LESS sense, and I literally had to google what direction it was supposed to be read in.

Mr Phillby
Apr 8, 2009

~TRAVIS~

Doctor Spaceman posted:

That was meant as a short story to signify that things were going to be different due to the new creative team (hence the focus on time and change). It was a mistake to put it at the beginning of the book.

The Gotham / Gotham Girl stuff was the actual start of the story arc.
Yeah well that stuff didn't particularly grab me either and naming a character the same as the City just led to confusing dialog, why wasn't he like Captain Gotham or something? I barely knew anything about the character when he went bad, it all felt rather arbitary to be honest.

Doctor Spaceman
Jul 6, 2010

"Everyone's entitled to their point of view, but that's seriously a weird one."


IronicDongz posted:

it takes like 10 minutes to get used to
I strongly disagree and find it awkward regardless of how much I read.

Mr Phillby posted:

Yeah well that stuff didn't particularly grab me either and naming a character the same as the City just led to confusing dialog, why wasn't he like Captain Gotham or something? I barely knew anything about the character when he went bad, it all felt rather arbitary to be honest.
That's when the character was introduced so it's more a problem with the story itself than its ability to function as an introduction. Though I liked the story well enough and really enjoyed some later parts of the run.

Arcsquad12
Mar 4, 2013

I Love Satan


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcuBwXFk5lM

Civvie rereleased his Blood 2 review with a redone voiceover and proper HD video and it is much better than his first version from years back.

Dawgstar
Jul 15, 2017



Alaois posted:



what a fuckin rear end in a top hat



Bob Kane makes Stan Lee look like Jack Kirby.

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Mr Phillby
Apr 8, 2009

~TRAVIS~

Doctor Spaceman posted:

I strongly disagree and find it awkward regardless of how much I read.

That's when the character was introduced so it's more a problem with the story itself than its ability to function as an introduction. Though I liked the story well enough and really enjoyed some later parts of the run.
But it didn't introduce poo poo? Like I know the basic batman setup and I'm fine with not going through the origin story rigmarole but barely anything in the story established the current status quo of Batman and his bat family. Robin was mentioned off hand but which one? Where are they now? It was taken as read that I should know where all the pieces lay.

To give another example I recdntly read through The Visions, which is absolutely steeped in decades of absolute nonsense continuity. However the parts relevant to the story were clearly explained so It mostly made sense to someone who's never read the avengers or w/e.

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