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Terrible Opinions
Oct 18, 2013



Everything doesn't need to have a cause specifically but all art does say something. It's fine if all it says is "wouldn't it be loving rad to see a guy do X", but you still have to consider what is being said.

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I AM GRANDO
Aug 20, 2006


Powerful hbomb energy in that delivery.

Arc Hammer
Mar 4, 2013

Got any deathsticks?
Even entertainment that is built first and foremost to entertain still contains themes and messaging. It'd be more accurate to complain about blatant messaging being overbearing, but it's a kid's show. Sure, kids are smart, but it's still aimed at an audience that might not yet fully comprehend the messaging the show is trying to impress upon them. Not everything needs to be subtle.

AnEdgelord
Dec 12, 2016
Sincerity is for chumps

I AM GRANDO
Aug 20, 2006

Ever since the whole nazi thing I don’t trust irony any more.

Parakeet vs. Phone
Nov 6, 2009
It's like that point Jim was making about Ubisoft's incredibly stupid "We aren't being political" statement.

If you're talking about how it's nice to have guns if/when the poo poo hits the fan, but also maybe guns are bad, you aren't being neutral. You're saying that it's important to talk about guns, gun control, survivalists, etc. even if you aren't endorsing a side.

Something like early Adventure Time still had messages like "be good to people, don't judge people on their appearance, fight evil/bad stuff, it's okay to just take care of yourself sometimes." A message doesn't have to be complex or new.

Solitair
Feb 18, 2014

TODAY'S GONNA BE A GOOD MOTHERFUCKIN' DAY!!!
I'm not watching that Jay Exci video until I catch up with Steven Universe, at which point I doubt anybody will remember it.

I AM GRANDO
Aug 20, 2006

sexpig by night posted:

Y'all motherfuckers like wars in stars and/or trains?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYy6V_ZVSU8

Best part: that Rene Auberjonois-sounding guy going “oooohhhh, [unintelligible]...hell yeeeeaaaaah” in the star tours video.

Zedd
Jul 6, 2009

I mean, who would have noticed another madman around here?



That was another great Jenny video.

I AM GRANDO
Aug 20, 2006

Every deep dive into disneyland is another expose of the brutality of capitalism, and this one was exceptionally rich. One day you’ll put enough pieces together to join the real rebellion, Jenny.

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013
🍀👽🆚🪖🏋

Theme parks are fun.

I AM GRANDO
Aug 20, 2006

Not for sweet cute goats or kids with sensory issues or employees.

What were her friends mocking her about in the footage in the stinger?

Dapper_Swindler
Feb 14, 2012

Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

Antifa Turkeesian posted:

Every deep dive into disneyland is another expose of the brutality of capitalism, and this one was exceptionally rich. One day you’ll put enough pieces together to join the real rebellion, Jenny.

I want to go to Star Wars Park some day and probably buy stuff but a weird part of me always dislikes the whole “everything has to be universe constantly” it just feels like those jokes about renfaires and than I feel bad for the person in stormtrooper armor who has to put up with drunks all day.

Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 00:41 on Sep 18, 2019

Doctor Spaceman
Jul 6, 2010

"Everyone's entitled to their point of view, but that's seriously a weird one."
Yeah Carlin narrated some of the early seasons Thomas in the US and Ringo did it in the UK (which was the version we got here in Australia). Both of them only did a few seasons though.

Arcsquad12 posted:

Nah, that was when Henry was being a dick and blocking up a tunnel so his paint job didn't get ruined.
Still not as bad as what happened to the engine who was dismantled and turned into a generator, still conscious but unable to move.

The engine being turned into a generator is slightly better in context, when it's a story one engine is telling some others. It's framed more like an "eat your veggies or a witch will eat you" cautionary tale than an actual thing that happened.

1-800-DOCTORB
Nov 6, 2009
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62APHDGlJyY

Kim Justice
Jan 29, 2007

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-yfZn5iYJE

It's Jon Bois.

Ok, it seems like a video rerun of something he already did with The Death of Basketball. But that was the greatest article on pretty much any video game ever written. And, again, it's Jon Bois.

HMS Beagle
Feb 13, 2009



Also since this is a new version of the game there’s some really bizarre new behavior that pops up.

x1o
Aug 5, 2005

My focus is UNPARALLELED!

Kim Justice posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-yfZn5iYJE

It's Jon Bois.

Ok, it seems like a video rerun of something he already did with The Death of Basketball. But that was the greatest article on pretty much any video game ever written. And, again, it's Jon Bois.

A 47 minute long video about Basketball from Jon Bois? Christmas has come very early this year.

Wordnumber
Jan 13, 2015

sexpig by night posted:

I think 'not everything needs to have a message' is fine, though? Like, does every bit of media need a cause behind it or can we just make things for creation's sake?

Sure, but there's a difference between "some things can be dumb fun" and "all, or at least most, art needs to be 'entertaining' first and foremost before it engages with themes or exposits some message. Entertainment is the purpose of art."

Max Wilco
Jan 23, 2012

I'm just trying to go through life without looking stupid.

It's not working out too well...


Bakeneko posted:

Personally I think that if a story is written well, its themes will emerge naturally as the writer explores the characters. That’s certainly how it works for me, and even some professional authors have said that they don’t know what each of their books are going to be “about” until those books are half-finished.

I’m not saying that the themes emerge from nothing, but rather that the writer isn’t consciously aware of them at first, until they’ve laid the foundations of the story, i.e. the plot and characters.

Can you write a good story the other way round, starting with a theme? Sure, and maybe I worded that post poorly because I didn’t mean to imply otherwise, but you do have to go back and build those foundations eventually. What I’m complaining about are lazy writers who think they can produce great work solely by chasing popular trends, or paying lip service to certain ideas.

There was a critique I remember from a few years ago that complained about Middle Earth: Shadow of Mordor; not because of anything bad in the game itself, but because tonally, it didn't mesh with the more peaceful, compassionate themes in Tolkien's original works.

This fits in more with the complaints about reviews focusing on plot holes & nitpicking, but there's the old "Why didn't the eagles fly to Mordor" comment people make. Even when you put aside the in-universe reason why it doesn't work, it's failing to recognize the fact that if they could do that, it wouldn't make for a very interesting movie.

However, if you were to apply that same kind of logic towards other aspects, someone might ask, "Why didn't Gandalf take the ring instead of Frodo? He's a badass wizard who can zap stuff." However, if you know the book, you know the reason why Gandalf doesn't take it is because he doesn't trust himself with the ring's corrupting power. He gives it to Frodo because due to his nature, he's less likely to succumb to the same kind of thirst for power. (Mind you, I'm not the biggest LOTR fan, and I don't remember the exact reasoning, but I recall it being something along those lines).

There's the old notion that Lord of the Rings was an analogy for World War 2, and that the One Ring is the atom bomb. I don't really care for that notion (nor do I think a lot of people), yet when you look at that in a broader scope, though, there's a similar idea at play. The Fellowship of the Ring came to the consensus that the ring couldn't be used or secreted away; it had to be destroyed, lest someone fall to its power. In real life, there was (and still is) the fear of nuclear proliferation, and how a country with the power to launch a nuke could threaten the world. The core idea with LOTR is that absolute power corrupts absolutely; by the end, eventually decides to take the ring, and it's only through Gollum's screw-up that it falls into Mt.Doom. Likewise, even if you were to grant power to someone you trusted and had faith in, they might slowly come to abuse that power.

I'm being sort of roundabout on this, but when you look at Lord of the Rings, and compare it to a typical fantasy novel (say, I dunno, a Dungeons & Dragons book), those kinds of things aren't always in play. The takeaway was less those ideas or themes, but rather the lore about hobbits, dwarves, men, elves, and so on. It's comes across as seeing the forest for the trees.

Yet at the same time, I don't know if that's really fair to say either. Tolkien also wrote spades of lore that ended up being published in a book that's superfluous to LOTR (the Simarillion), and people often criticize how Tom Bombadil can be excised from LOTR and nothing would be lost (hence why he was excised from the movies, and there was no real continuity gaff).

Here's a post I ran across the other day that I think explains it better than I do:

https://incomingalbatross.tumblr.com/post/186779226498/one-of-the-things-thats-really-struck-me-while posted:

One of the things that’s really struck me while rereading the Lord of the Rings–knowing much more about Tolkien than I did the last time I read it–is how individual a story it is.

We tend to think of it as a genre story now, I think–because it’s so good, and so unprecedented, that Tolkien accidentally inspired a whole new fantasy culture, which is kind of hilarious. Wanting to “write like Tolkien,” I think, is generally seen as “writing an Epic Fantasy Universe with invented races and geography and history and languages, world-saving quests and dragons and kings.” But… But…

Here’s the thing. I don’t think those elements are at all what make The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings so good. Because I’m realizing, as I did not realize when I was a kid, that Tolkien didn’t use those elements because they’re somehow inherently better than other things. He used them purely because they were what he liked and what he knew.

The Shire exists because he was an Englishman who partially grew up in, and loved, the British countryside, and Hobbits are born out of his very English, very traditionalist values. Tom Bombadil was one of his kids’ toys that he had already invented stories about and then incorporated into Middle-Earth. He wrote about elves and dwarves because he knew elves and dwarves from the old literature/mythology that he’d made his career. The Rohirrim are an expression of the ancient cultures he studied. There are a half-dozen invented languages in Middle-Earth because he was a linguist. The themes of war and loss and corruption were important to him, and were things he knew intimately, because of the point in history during which he lived; and all the morality of the stories, the grace and humility and hope-in-despair, was an expression of his Catholic faith.

J. R. R. Tolkien created an incredible, beautiful, unparalleled world not specifically by writing about elves and dwarves and linguistics, but by embracing all of his strengths and loves and all the things he best understood, and writing about them with all of his skill and talent. The fact that those things happened to be elves and dwarves and linguistics is what makes Middle-Earth Middle-Earth; but it is not what makes Middle-Earth good.

What makes it good is that every element that went into it was an element J. R. R. Tolkien knew and loved and understood. He brought it out of his scholarship and hobbies and life experience and ideals, and he wrote the story no one else could have written… And did it so well that other people have been trying to write it ever since.

So… I think, if we really want to write like Tolkien (as I do), we shouldn’t specifically be trying to write like linguists, or historical experts, or veterans, or or or… We should try to write like people who’ve gathered all their favorite and most important things together, and are playing with the stuff those things are made of just for the joy of it. We need to write like ourselves.

Max Wilco fucked around with this message at 02:31 on Sep 18, 2019

Dean of Swing
Feb 22, 2012
Writing about a what you know and love can be difficult if all you know is twitter bon mots and videogame statistics.

Here is a trick. Read enough history until you come across something you consider the most bizarre thing you have ever heard. Then read all you can about it including any contextual background events. Write it all down in Microsoft Word. Now switch out all the names and places to re-contextualize it to the modern day. Now dump a ton of homoeroticism in it. Dump it on AO3. It worked for The Warriors, it can work for you.

Mokinokaro
Sep 11, 2001

At the end of everything, hold onto anything



Fun Shoe
Kyle Kallgren (hope I'm spelling that right) pulled his Cinema Antifa videos for his personal health thanks to the fascist hate mob.

Mokinokaro fucked around with this message at 02:55 on Sep 18, 2019

I AM GRANDO
Aug 20, 2006

Cool. Cool country. Great culture.

Yardbomb
Jul 11, 2011

What's with the eh... bretonnian dance, sir?



I'm not wrong, all a lot of shows want to be anymore is misery parade poo poo and a lot more talented creators get their break with animated shows, which ends up with 'cartoons' handling things better than boomerbrains suffering wank.

Antifa Turkeesian posted:

Ever since the whole nazi thing I don’t trust irony any more.

I never did, it was both never funny for me and felt really worn out really fast on top of that.

Yardbomb fucked around with this message at 03:33 on Sep 18, 2019

Alaois
Feb 7, 2012

I'm pretty sure everyone who has made a children's cartoon in the past 30 years is some kind of sex creep

Dawgstar
Jul 15, 2017

Alaois posted:

I'm pretty sure everyone who has made a children's cartoon in the past 30 years is some kind of sex creep

It did seem sad that just as The Loud House was receiving awards for inclusion, oop, Chris Savino is a sex pest. And even better it was an open secret.

rudecyrus
Nov 6, 2009

fuck you trolls

Mokinokaro posted:

Kyle Kallgren (hope I'm spelling that right) pulled his Cinema Antifa videos for his personal health thanks to the fascist hate mob.

sigh

I AM GRANDO
Aug 20, 2006

What a surprise that John K’s protege also learned how to rape and threaten from his master.

Alaois
Feb 7, 2012

Dawgstar posted:

It did seem sad that just as The Loud House was receiving awards for inclusion, oop, Chris Savino is a sex pest. And even better it was an open secret.

There was an article not too long ago, might have even been posted in here, that talks about the animation industry's weird permissiveness to the point of endorsement of pornographic fanart and it was fascinating. it was very funny to me that the one cartoon where the creators put their foot down about it was Wakfu

Max Wilco
Jan 23, 2012

I'm just trying to go through life without looking stupid.

It's not working out too well...

Yardbomb posted:

I'm not wrong, all a lot of shows want to be anymore is misery parade poo poo and a lot more talented creators get their break with animated shows, which ends up with 'cartoons' handling things better than boomerbrains suffering wank.

I got what you were saying. I wouldn't say it's all bleak, grim misery, but there seem to be a glut of shows that seem really dour. I didn't sit down and watch it, but I caught bits of Jessica Jones here and there while someone else was watching through it, and for a show set in the Marvel universe, the overall tone of it just seems really morose.

Alaois posted:

There was an article not too long ago, might have even been posted in here, that talks about the animation industry's weird permissiveness to the point of endorsement of pornographic fanart and it was fascinating. it was very funny to me that the one cartoon where the creators put their foot down about it was Wakfu

Was it this one?: https://medium.com/@brazyintheday/kids-tv-has-a-porn-problem-84592d9514fc

Max Wilco fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Sep 18, 2019

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.

Mokinokaro posted:

Kyle Kallgren (hope I'm spelling that right) pulled his Cinema Antifa videos for his personal health thanks to the fascist hate mob.

But... it was a really good video.

God dammit.

Captain Invictus
Apr 5, 2005

Try reading some manga!


Clever Betty

Mokinokaro posted:

Kyle Kallgren (hope I'm spelling that right) pulled his Cinema Antifa videos for his personal health thanks to the fascist hate mob.
Great, they won.

Alaois
Feb 7, 2012


yeah thats it

sexpig by night
Sep 8, 2011

by Azathoth

it's really weird they keep calling multiple characters who are adults in SU 'child like' because they're...short? Like I get the core point but trying to take some weird pedo angle to Peridot and Garnet trying to fuse and 'the big gem turns into two smaller gems because they were raped' is a really weird take. Also it's also ignoring that 'fusion' isn't a 1:1 sex metaphor because...it's explicitly shown not to be constantly? It's emotional closeness and physical closeness, boiling it down to 'the rock ladies gently caress' is the biggest whoosh possible when trying to talk about sexuality in media and it honestly feels like they just did it so they can be all 'SU isn't without its own criticisms that are being ignored because it has representation'.

Like, who did that video about how queer media faces a way weirder higher standard even in progressive spaces because even our allies tend to view orientation as entirely sexual based and all? It's that.

Roth
Jul 9, 2016

MLP really didn't deserve the kind of fanbase it got. A pretty fun show just forever tainted for most people.

Leal
Oct 2, 2009
Never forget the story of a group of grown rear end adults giving a child poo poo at a build a bear to the point the police had to be called because they were a bunch of dumb idiot babbies.


Or the time hasbro had to send their lawyers after a guy who got creative with mlp plushies and fleshlights.

Pulsarcat
Feb 7, 2012


sexpig by night posted:

Like, who did that video about how queer media faces a way weirder higher standard even in progressive spaces because even our allies tend to view orientation as entirely sexual based and all? It's that.

I don't know if it's the one you're referring too, but Sarah Zed did a video about how media made by white men with non diverse casts rarely gets examined, where as media made by a member of the group being represented tends to get examined under a microscope and torn apart, often times by the group it's trying to represent.

Link.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__ctRfI7cuM

Roth
Jul 9, 2016

Leal posted:

Never forget the story of a group of grown rear end adults giving a child poo poo at a build a bear to the point the police had to be called because they were a bunch of dumb idiot babbies.


Or the time hasbro had to send their lawyers after a guy who got creative with mlp plushies and fleshlights.

I don't recall the first one, and I hate that I remember the second one.

I just like cute things, and boy it sure sucks whenever I just want to look at cute art and need 500 tags filtered out.

Edit - That obviously goes for any piece of children's media obviously.

Roth fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Sep 18, 2019

John Murdoch
May 19, 2009

I can tune a fish.

Terrible Opinions posted:

I'd argue quite the opposite. Cage had nothing to say about racism. Instead he had a lot of ultimately unimportant set dressing of better sci-fi stories that he assumed would, just by being in his work, say something about racism. He thought this because other more talented and motivated creators have used similar set-dressing to say things about all sorts of important social issues. This lack of any real motivating point can be seen in how the endings are mutually exclusive with one another. They deliver conflicting messages either due to Cage's lack of skill in executing his intent or Cage actually not understanding the meaning of his own storytelling.

According to David Cage, unlike Blade Runner, Detroit's androids are the good guys.

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Terrible Opinions
Oct 18, 2013



Dean of Swing posted:

Writing about a what you know and love can be difficult if all you know is twitter bon mots and videogame statistics.

Here is a trick. Read enough history until you come across something you consider the most bizarre thing you have ever heard. Then read all you can about it including any contextual background events. Write it all down in Microsoft Word. Now switch out all the names and places to re-contextualize it to the modern day. Now dump a ton of homoeroticism in it. Dump it on AO3. It worked for The Warriors, it can work for you.
The Warriors is not significantly more homoerotic than what Xenophon actually wrote down. It's just that the homoeroticism needs to be updated for a modern context.

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