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Helianthus Annuus posted:one more thing, consider this device as an alternative way to get to the tonic chord So in Cmaj this would be Fm7, Bbmaj7, C(maj7)?
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Jan 17, 2021 18:36
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prom candy posted:So in Cmaj this would be Fm7, Bbmaj7, C(maj7)? I think it wants a flat 7 in the Bb chord. In the key of C major, I think it would be Fm7, Bb7, C. I've read other sources that say F7, Bb7, C also counts as a backdoor. And Dm7, Bb7, C also counts. I think the important bit is to somehow set up a dominant on the bVII, then resolve that to the tonic.
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Jan 17, 2021 19:05
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Yeah man, I've only just discovered Isiah Sharkey, but he is extremely my poo poo. Grabbing melody stuff while playing chords is something I need to work on... and all my inversions, but this is the year I finally stop being lazy. I think learning my upper structure triads would go a long way in mixing up my sound too. It's a lot easier to visualize on the keyboard, like oh there's my 7-9-#11, that's easy, while also playing the root and the 3rd so your ear can pick up on that. I like the backdoor progression, it's something I've always taken to, but never knew there was a name for it. The minor iv is one of my favorite chords because it has that b6, which I love (bVI too). Since the bVII works because of the common tones, can you tritone sub that for a little more flavor? bVII = Bb - D - F - Ab Sub = E - G# (Ab) - B - D I have a layman's knowledge of jazz theory, but a lot of it is guess work for me, like when to use certain notes on which chords (like b13). I have the Jazz Piano Book by Mark Levine but have never really been able to make good use of it. Anyway, some examples: Really digging the first part of this chord progression (I can take or leave JD's drumming). Without going to the keyboard, it sounds like it hangs out on that b6 (unless that's the tonic?). EDIT: oops, forgot to timestamp it, music starts @ 1:49. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCnrYD9HaRg One of my favorites: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z80lNgUxEF8
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Jan 18, 2021 06:35
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zenguitarman posted:Yeah man, I've only just discovered Isiah Sharkey, but he is extremely my poo poo. Grabbing melody stuff while playing chords is something I need to work on... and all my inversions, but this is the year I finally stop being lazy. I think learning my upper structure triads would go a long way in mixing up my sound too. It's a lot easier to visualize on the keyboard, like oh there's my 7-9-#11, that's easy, while also playing the root and the 3rd so your ear can pick up on that. the locations of the intervals on the guitar fretboard are predictable too! but maybe not as obvious as on the piano keyboard. It's good to know where all those intervals are, and it's totally within your grasp to memorize. recommended! zenguitarman posted:I like the backdoor progression, it's something I've always taken to, but never knew there was a name for it. The minor iv is one of my favorite chords because it has that b6, which I love (bVI too). Since the bVII works because of the common tones, can you tritone sub that for a little more flavor? An E7 chord is often going to want to resolve to some kind of A chord. In the key of C, a more conventional move might be Bm7b5 E7 Am to temporarily modulate to the relative minor. Going to C major subverts this expectation, but it still sounds like something someone might play on purpose. Beware, it can also confuse and upset your listener -- which is what happened to me when I played it in on my guitar! zenguitarman posted:I have a layman's knowledge of jazz theory, but a lot of it is guess work for me, like when to use certain notes on which chords (like b13). I have the Jazz Piano Book by Mark Levine but have never really been able to make good use of it. most musicians will just audition the chords with and without certain tones or extensions, going by ear to decide which works best when you're playing by yourself, you can load a dominant chord with all kinds of extensions, go nuts! but if you're comping for someone, this might be considered rude, as it constrains the soloist or singer's note choices, potentially loving up the melody with unwanted dissonance. better to keep it simple. zenguitarman posted:Anyway, some examples: the A part of this tune sounds like its in F# major. Chords sound like (probably oversimplified) F# D#m C#, or I vi V. Melody sounds diatonic, but the bass and keys are playing very interesting color notes. Saxes can be heard playing the minor 3rd (A) instead of the major 3rd (A#) at the start of their phrase which sounds colorful, and they circle back and hit the major 3rd at the end of the phrase. Rhythms are very interesting too. Lots going on here, but I'm not good enough at transcription to go much deeper. zenguitarman posted:One of my favorites: Bass part is great. In the A part, I hear a vamp between the Bb and B chords. It's unusual to hear two major chords separated by a half-step, you won't find that in the major scale or any of its modes! But that phenomenon is present at the end of the Andalusian cadence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andalusian_cadence e.g., Am G F E
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Jan 18, 2021 19:35
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Hello thread. It's been a long time since I've given a serious try to writing any music at all, but I want to make another push to get back into it. I'm primarily interested in heavy, dark electronic music (perhaps you've seen me in the DJ or Drum & Bass threads), you know, stuff that tends to just sit there in Fm and get most of its brooding feeling not from melody or harmony but from rhythm and twisted-up filters and effects. But that's not really what interests me anymore; I have a percussion background and rhythm is something I just get, but lately I've been moved more strongly by interesting harmonies and I want to sharpen that side of my mind. I can write drums all day but without chord progression I feel like my compositions never move forward and become songs. I'm going to give the OP a thorough read and begin taking in some of the content from 12tone etc. I do still have a fair understanding of the basics of theory (key, circle of fifths, inverting chords) but where every foray into learning more about harmony has fallen apart for me is in the relationship between accidentals, stepping outside of key and using pivoting chords. Part of the impetus for writing this reply was some comments in the Beatles thread in GBS about how brilliantly their music just walks around yet never seems meandering or without direction. This problem is not unique to music theory - I've found in other disciplines, for example EQ theory, that I learn some of 'the rules' and get frustrated trying to understand why something outside of 'the rules' might sound correct, then defaulting back to 'the rules' out of frustration. When this has happened in a music theory sense, my older compositions have always ended up flat and boring. Every now and then when I try to step out of that, say "drat the rules I'm going to sit here and use my loving ears until I have an interesting melody/chord progression," I sometimes noodle around with a legato Kontakt string patch and find some interesting feelings, but it inevitably seems directionless, wandering and difficult to resolve into something that can work as part of a song. This reply is sort of the same way, I guess. I'm not even really sure what specifically I'm getting at, other than that my problem has something to do with understanding how to step outside of a key, outside of a boring three-chord progression that maybe has an inversion or two. Again, I'm going to give some of the lessons in the OP some attention, and definitely have Chordinatr open tomorrow when I take another stab at some, but I'm wondering if any of this word salad I've posted gives any of you virtuosos an idea of where I should focus. Thanks for your time.
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Jan 30, 2021 00:52
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Mister Speaker posted:Hello thread. It's been a long time since I've given a serious try to writing any music at all, but I want to make another push to get back into it. I'm primarily interested in heavy, dark electronic music (perhaps you've seen me in the DJ or Drum & Bass threads), you know, stuff that tends to just sit there in Fm and get most of its brooding feeling not from melody or harmony but from rhythm and twisted-up filters and effects. But that's not really what interests me anymore; I have a percussion background and rhythm is something I just get, but lately I've been moved more strongly by interesting harmonies and I want to sharpen that side of my mind. I can write drums all day but without chord progression I feel like my compositions never move forward and become songs. so what's a song that sounds like something you wanna write? Mister Speaker posted:I'm going to give the OP a thorough read and begin taking in some of the content from 12tone etc. I do still have a fair understanding of the basics of theory (key, circle of fifths, inverting chords) but where every foray into learning more about harmony has fallen apart for me is in the relationship between accidentals, stepping outside of key and using pivoting chords. Part of the impetus for writing this reply was some comments in the Beatles thread in GBS about how brilliantly their music just walks around yet never seems meandering or without direction. if you like Beatles tunes, a lot of those songs have something interesting going on with the chords. why don't we pick one and talk about what makes it sound good? Mister Speaker posted:This problem is not unique to music theory - I've found in other disciplines, for example EQ theory, that I learn some of 'the rules' and get frustrated trying to understand why something outside of 'the rules' might sound correct, then defaulting back to 'the rules' out of frustration. When this has happened in a music theory sense, my older compositions have always ended up flat and boring. i'm going to give you my constructive criticism in another reply. but i think you're being very uncharitable calling those flat and boring. for a song to be one thing, it has to give up on something else it could have been. e.g., if you make a song with interesting harmonies that stand out to the ear, it's no good as an ambient tune anymore. Mister Speaker posted:Every now and then when I try to step out of that, say "drat the rules I'm going to sit here and use my loving ears until I have an interesting melody/chord progression," I sometimes noodle around with a legato Kontakt string patch and find some interesting feelings, but it inevitably seems directionless, wandering and difficult to resolve into something that can work as part of a song. only trust your ears! rules will never help you! just kidding about the rules, but im serious about the ears. and when you get stuck, you can use music theory to steal the good bits from songs you like, and use them your songs  Mister Speaker posted:This reply is sort of the same way, I guess. I'm not even really sure what specifically I'm getting at, other than that my problem has something to do with understanding how to step outside of a key, outside of a boring three-chord progression that maybe has an inversion or two. Again, I'm going to give some of the lessons in the OP some attention, and definitely have Chordinatr open tomorrow when I take another stab at some, but I'm wondering if any of this word salad I've posted gives any of you virtuosos an idea of where I should focus. One very basic way to get out of the key: secondary dominants. Heres the rule: if there's a chord you wanna play, you can usually precede it with a dominant 7th chords a perfect 5th away. e.g., G7 -> C, E7 -> Am, etc. follow your circle of fifths to find these. and you can get to the dominant 7th chord however you want, because the ear forgives any dissonance once you resolve to the next chord. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_chord#Secondary_dominant Mister Speaker posted:Thanks for your time. yw thanks for visiting the Music Theory thread 
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Jan 30, 2021 03:16
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theres interesting stuff going on in the bass, but most of it kind of vanishes in the mix. maybe it needs to be louder? but actually.... i think its because the bass sound is missing a transient -- theres no dynamic variation in the bass notes to let the ear key in on when each note hits. maybe putting in some dynamics would make this sound less "flat" to your ears? for me, this song is like Deus ex or Metal Gear Solid vibes -- and i like that about it. but it's pretty far from "sex" in my mind! haha i'd make the same comment about the bass transients in this tune, but it's working for me in this one 
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Jan 30, 2021 03:24
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https://soundcloud.com/operatormusic/operations-vol-17-drum-bass-mix now im checking out your more recent tracks... lotta dynamics in this one  good poo poo!
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Jan 30, 2021 03:50
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Thank you so much for advice and feedback, I'll get back to you on some of those points tomorrow when I'm working on tunes tomorrow. Helianthus Annuus posted:https://soundcloud.com/operatormusic/operations-vol-17-drum-bass-mix This one's a DJ mix, not an original track.
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Jan 30, 2021 05:20
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Mister Speaker posted:Thank you so much for advice and feedback, I'll get back to you on some of those points tomorrow when I'm working on tunes tomorrow. oh word. i should have realized that when i saw it was over an hour lol. im still a baby when it comes to this kind of music
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Jan 30, 2021 07:35
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can anyone advise on writing parts of songs that aren't eight or sixteen bars? i notice in a lot of the early weezer songs i like and stuff, there will surprisingly be truncated sections of songs or something like that, which seems really cool. i don't know anything about this, or the name for doing it, if there is one, but it seems like something i'd wanna experiment with
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Feb 4, 2021 15:32
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i think the general term for this is "irregular phrases"
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Feb 4, 2021 18:52
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Sorry for ghosting the thread. I've been trying to think up answers to your points to work off of and IDK, I guess I'm in more of a funk than I thought. Writing has been super hard these days with everything going on, even just noodling around on the keys I quickly get frustrated and give up. I did write this tune though and spent basically every day last week working on balancing the mix; I'm still not sure it sounds good. Instead of writing other new ideas, I find myself working on different versions of this track. I've got another one that drops the breakbeat percussion in favour of some big cinematic taikos and frame drums, and right now I'm poking around at a slower (~125-130BPM) version that I can't decide between giving it the four-on-the-floor progressive house rhythm or sticking with something a little more breaksy. I really want to write more progressions, but I'm starting to feel like I just don't have it in me.
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Feb 16, 2021 23:05
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Mister Speaker posted:Sorry for ghosting the thread. I've been trying to think up answers to your points to work off of and IDK, I guess I'm in more of a funk than I thought. Writing has been super hard these days with everything going on, even just noodling around on the keys I quickly get frustrated and give up. I did write this tune though and spent basically every day last week working on balancing the mix; I'm still not sure it sounds good. Instead of writing other new ideas, I find myself working on different versions of this track. I've got another one that drops the breakbeat percussion in favour of some big cinematic taikos and frame drums, and right now I'm poking around at a slower (~125-130BPM) version that I can't decide between giving it the four-on-the-floor progressive house rhythm or sticking with something a little more breaksy. I really want to write more progressions, but I'm starting to feel like I just don't have it in me. hi mister speaker, sorry to hear you aren't having fun making music. it sounds good to me, but i've already outted myself as a baby when it comes to this genre. still, i'll try to find something interesting to say about the harmony in this tune. so, at 1m55s and i hear you go from a Eb minor chord to D major chord. this is a non-diatonic chord change, and it sounds dark and unexpected to me. i think it works well for this tune. but i detect some dissonance between the D major chord, and the E minor melodies in the piano part (Eb Gb Bb, and Eb B Bb). the minor 2nd interval between the Eb and the D causes a lot of dissonance, which doesn't really get resolved as the melody proceeds. if theres a mistake here, its that the melody doesn't support the non-diatonic chord change. can you try keeping everything the same, but reverse the order of the melody notes, so that it starts on Bb and ends on Eb? this way, the dissonance introduced by the Eb gets resolved nicely when the D major chord goes back to the Eb minor chord.
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Feb 17, 2021 05:28
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Thanks for replying! I'm confused as to which part of the melody you're talking about though, immediately after the first Dmaj chord at ~1:53 there are ascending Eb/Gb/Bb, and after the next Dmaj at 1:59 there are Eb/Bb/B in the same rhythm. Are these the notes you say should be played in reverse order, thusly? That definitely does sound a bit less cold and dark, yeah. Thanks! Additionally, something I think may be contributing to unwanted dissonance in the progression, that another friend commented about, is either related to the hold pedal or the dotted note delay line on the piano. Can you comment on that at all? The hold pedal is only deployed for the melody notes in between chords in the A part of the song, and only the Eb/Bb 'hook' at the end of the bridge, but the delay line is basically there the entire time. Thanks again for your help! Helianthus Annuus posted:hi mister speaker, sorry to hear you aren't having fun making music. it sounds good to me, but i've already outted myself as a baby when it comes to this genre. still, i'll try to find something interesting to say about the harmony in this tune.
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Feb 17, 2021 19:29
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Mister Speaker posted:Thanks for replying! I'm confused as to which part of the melody you're talking about though, immediately after the first Dmaj chord at ~1:53 there are ascending Eb/Gb/Bb, and after the next Dmaj at 1:59 there are Eb/Bb/B in the same rhythm. Are these the notes you say should be played in reverse order, thusly? That definitely does sound a bit less cold and dark, yeah. Thanks! yeah thats the part! the new version doesn't sound exactly like it did in my head, so i guess i don't know exactly what i had in mind haha. but you could do whatever you want here, you know? my suggestion was just meant to be a jumping off point. i wanted to point out that each note in the melody is doing to create dissonance or consonance, and that it can be good to make a conscious choice about when to create tension and when to release it. just gotta keep in mind that the non-diatonic chord change is going constrain your melodic possibilities, and its going to be a little harder than usual to come up with a part that works over such chord changes. i can't really hear any problems with the rest of the chord changes, the diatonic stuff in the other parts of the song sounds good to me. i would need some help keying in on what your friend is talking about... i guess i would maybe try to audition the tune with and without the effect.
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Feb 19, 2021 18:31
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Someone else pointed out that moving those three notes more in line with the Dmaj chord itself would work better, like this, and I'm inclined to agree. It doesn't have the outright coldness that it has sticking with the Eb/Gb/Bb. But now I'm concerned with the second trio of notes (the Eb/Bb/B at around 1:59) sticking out; or maybe they don't because they lead into (what I think is) a Gb chord in the 9th bar - argh, I get so confused with chords and inversions sometimes that I can't even pick out the root note. Funny how I was talking about not understanding accidentals and going outside of key signatures, and the first thing I write has a difficult non-diatonic part in it. Thanks very much for all your patience and help, Helianthus Annuus, much obliged. Hopefully I can keep this up.
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Feb 19, 2021 19:01
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Mister Speaker posted:Someone else pointed out that moving those three notes more in line with the Dmaj chord itself would work better, like this, and I'm inclined to agree. It doesn't have the outright coldness that it has sticking with the Eb/Gb/Bb. But now I'm concerned with the second trio of notes (the Eb/Bb/B at around 1:59) sticking out; or maybe they don't because they lead into (what I think is) a Gb chord in the 9th bar - argh, I get so confused with chords and inversions sometimes that I can't even pick out the root note. yes, this new melody is working better than anything so far! i wouldn't worry about the second trio of notes at all, unless you are enjoying the process of auditioning different possibilities. i would just come up with some different candidates, and then make a note to listen back some other day and pick what works best. i think you can really get sick of listening to a protect over and over again while you work on it. the youtuber Andrew Huang suggests working on lots of projects at once, and (for example) do the guitar parts for all the projects on the same day, the synth parts another day, etc. that way you dont have to listen to the same thing over and over, and you don't have to unplug a bunch of poo poo when you finish the guitar part for one tune -- you just leave it plugged in and start work on the next one. i can't find the video where he talks about this, so i guess you'll have to take my word for it lol.
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Feb 19, 2021 19:39
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i did find this video though, its a playlist of John Mayer's 2008 clinic at Berklee https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wjarb4lOm-A he talks about how he started out wanting to be the "best" and being miserable because "the best" is undefinable and unattainable. so instead he decided to make it his goal to be "listenable". this blew my mind when i saw it for the first time. John Mayer has written some amazing songs, and enjoyed fabulous success. and it's all because he wanted to be "listenable", which seems like very low expectations for yourself as a musician. but he's right! "listenable" is an attainable goal for all of us, and then the rest is just personal taste (for better or worse). anyway, i figured you could use that perspective, mister speaker, because you've been so down on your music, when it's already working very well, according to my ears. to put John's point more bluntly: "how right do you think you can get this?" haha
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Feb 19, 2021 19:44
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Can anyone recommend a book for composition / harmonization / general theory beyond what's in the OP? I'm going to try a few of the youtube links there, but having a core music theory textbook would be nice, too. I know the basics (scales, triads, some mode stuff, etc) so I'm looking for a course or a book or something to go beyond that. For example, I can generally read chord shorthand notation (Csus4 / blah / blah), but want to know more about why that chord in that sequence (cadences?).
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Feb 21, 2021 17:14
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for that, i recommend the first half of The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jazz_Theory_Book actually, now that i think about it, the hook theory books are even better because you can toy with harmony in their web app https://www.hooktheory.com/books
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Feb 21, 2021 17:34
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Helianthus Annuus posted:for that, i recommend the first half of The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jazz_Theory_Book These both look like what I had in mind. Thanks so much!
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Feb 21, 2021 20:40
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Levine's jazz theory book is really good, seconding that. Arnold Schoenburg's Fundamentals of Musical Composition is good too. if you want to get into some weirder stuff there's also George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization, which was very important to the development of modal jazz, but is sort of uh...out there
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Feb 22, 2021 22:47
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So I don't understand why Cm6 is made up of C Eb G A when the 6th degree of the Cm scale is Ab and not A. Help! I feel I have made some sort of fundamental error in the way that I think about how chords relate to scales 
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Feb 23, 2021 14:19
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Nigel Tufnel posted:So I don't understand why Cm6 is made up of C Eb G A when the 6th degree of the Cm scale is Ab and not A. Help! I feel I have made some sort of fundamental error in the way that I think about how chords relate to scales You seem to think that when a chord symbol says it's minor, that means it automatically gets a b6 and a b7, in addition to the b3 explicitly called for by the little "m" in the chord symbol. But that's not quite right! if you want the Ab, you can say Cm(b6), but if you say Cm6, that calls for the A, which is the major 6th. Incidentally, this chord would be at home in C dorian, but not in C natural minor. "But wait a minute!" I hear you saying. "Doesn't a naked 7 in a chord symbol always imply a b7 ... even though we have the raised 7th in the major scale? And that's not the case for a naked "6"? That seems inconsistent! WTF?????" And that's right.  If you want a raised 7, you have to say "maj7" instead of just "7." It's because when you see a 7 in a chord symbol, 90% of the time, its in some kind of dominant chord, which wants the b7. The "default" meanings of the chord glyphs are based on convention, not on the intervals in the major scale! We wanna make the chord symbol as short as possible so it can be read fast! We would quickly get pissed off if we had to read "b7" every time a dominant chord shows up on the chord chart! And as a side effect, you get a b7 for free when you say Cm7, because of that convention. I think some people break down "Cmaj7" into "Cmaj" and "7", and then reason that C major automatically changes the meaning of the 7 to be a raised 7 instead of a flat 7. But the correct breakdown of "Cmaj7" is "C" and "maj7", and with that understanding, you can see that nothing is changing automatically here (as long as you know the conventions behind the chord symbols). Likewise, the correct breakdown of "Cm7" is not "C" and "m7", but rather "Cm" and "7". Abd, the correct breakdown of "Cm6" is not "C" and "m6", but rather "Cm" and "6". Helianthus Annuus fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Feb 23, 2021 |
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Feb 23, 2021 16:49
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Helianthus Annuus posted:Likewise, the correct breakdown of "Cm7" is not "C" and "m7", but rather "Cm" and "7".  Thank you!
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Feb 23, 2021 17:44
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Nigel Tufnel posted:So I don't understand why Cm6 is made up of C Eb G A when the 6th degree of the Cm scale is Ab and not A. Help! I feel I have made some sort of fundamental error in the way that I think about how chords relate to scales what sun dude told you is all correct, just going to add on a little more. a m6 chord is the chord built off the second degree of the major scale or fourth degree of the minor, ie dorian. in your example (key of C minor), the diatonic m6 chord would be Fm6 ( F Ab C D). i'm going to disagree with this part, though. Helianthus Annuus posted:But that's not quite right! if you want the Ab, you can say Cm(b6), but if you say Cm6, that calls for the A, which is the major 6th. Incidentally, this chord would be at home in C dorian, but not in C natural minor. a tonic m6 chord is incredibly versatile and generally not that dissonant, and you can use that sound pretty much at will in most circumstances unless you want a really strong resolution to the tonic. just because it isn't diatonic doesn't mean it shouldn't be in your vocabulary, the im6 chord is all over tons of music.
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Feb 23, 2021 20:57
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oops! I should have said something like "a Cm6 tonic is more consistent with C dorian than with C natural minor." Didn't mean to imply that its ONLY usable in dorian! as long as we are talking about m6 chords, do you ever think about how Cm6 is A half-diminished, but in 1st inversion?
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Feb 24, 2021 00:18
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Helianthus Annuus posted:oops! I should have said something like "a Cm6 tonic is more consistent with C dorian than with C natural minor." Didn't mean to imply that its ONLY usable in dorian! yeah constantly lol, it's a super useful pivot between the relative major and minor because you can use the same exact chord for the subdominant of either (so like for a minor/cmajor, either bm7b5->e7->am or dm6->g7->c)
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Feb 24, 2021 00:54
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This Levine book is going OK so far - mostly reviewing stuff I know already but in a more thorough way. I find it strange when looking at chords that the one note it seems that you must never, ever have in a chord, however, is the root. C, F, A? That's obviously a Dm7.
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Feb 24, 2021 04:40
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Let me preface this by saying to please tell me where to gently caress off to if I've parachuted into the wrong thread. That said... I've hired a musician to write music for my game (dev.log thread). They've turned out some great tracks, but I've noticed that they have a real weakness when it comes to writing melodies. Their approach generally is to create a phrase that they like, then repeat it several times verbatim. When I ask them to add variation, have the repetitions build on each other and bring them to a satisfying conclusion, their response generally is to randomly tweak a few notes in the successive phrases, or make the phrases so long and meandering that they feel pretty breathless by the end. Neither of which is what I was asking for. I don't have any formal music theory training; just a few years' worth of piano and cello, and growing up with classical music and a skilled pianist in the family. I'm pretty good at listening to a piece and picking out what's wrong, and I can sometimes supply my own suggested melodies, but I can't figure out how to tell my composer to just, like, write better melodies. Are there some resources online I could point them to? Maybe some kind of breakdown of what makes for a satisfying melodic line? Like, here's the introductory phrase, here's the digression, here's where we heighten the tension, here's where we bring it to a satisfying conclusion, and these are the specific things at each step that create those emotional responses in the listener. I feel like it's gonna be an awkward conversation no matter what. But hopefully we can phrase this as an opportunity to train on the job, or something like that. Thanks in advance!
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Feb 24, 2021 16:17
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Let me preface this by saying to please tell me where to gently caress off to if I've parachuted into the wrong thread. That said... Sounds like what you're looking for is better motivic development over the course of the song. 8 bit music theory has a lot of videos analyzing video game music. I think these are worth watching, because he explains what goes into making a certain track sound good. He also has a "music theory minute" series, which i think you should check out, so that you can have a more productive conversation with your composer. here are the videos related to melody: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0J6DrvIx0A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln272HHu3Uc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfmqs8hWQQg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XykJ1VnYu14 and it would help to give your composer an example of a tune that sounds more like what you're hoping for. if it's a tune that has been analyzed by 8 bit music theory, then you can even pick out the specific musical elements that you want to focus on.
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Feb 24, 2021 16:46
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havelock posted:This Levine book is going OK so far - mostly reviewing stuff I know already but in a more thorough way. I find it strange when looking at chords that the one note it seems that you must never, ever have in a chord, however, is the root. C, F, A? That's obviously a Dm7. you know how we were talking about how Cm6 is A half-diminished (aka Am7b5) in first inversion? Check it out: C6 is Am7 in first inversion. And F6 is Dm7 in first inversion. Thats how I think about it anyway. Barry Harris thinks of these major 6th and minor 6th chords as being the "root position", and he thinks the m7 and m7b5 chords are the "3rd inversions". And he sounds really good, so maybe that's a good way to think about it!
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Feb 24, 2021 17:05
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Helianthus Annuus posted:you know how we were talking about how Cm6 is A half-diminished (aka Am7b5) in first inversion? Check it out: C6 is Am7 in first inversion. And F6 is Dm7 in first inversion. I'm sure this will be made clear as I get further through the book, i.e., some explanation for why it makes sense to call C F A a Dm7 because of the scale/chords/key around it, but I'm not there yet. Inversions and triads and the general idea of figuring out what notes make up what chords makes sense to me (though not by memory yet). In some of the examples early on there's a related thing that isn't clear yet - he shows chord numbers over the excerpt and it includes key changes every measure or two. I'm used to songs that have a key and then you just go I IV V I or whatever where these examples were showing II - V, II - V, II - V, II - V except the first and third were in D and the second and fourth were in E (ie modulating every 2 bars). It could just be those songs actually do change key every 2 bars - hopefully I'll find out more later.
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Feb 24, 2021 21:59
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havelock posted:I'm sure this will be made clear as I get further through the book, i.e., some explanation for why it makes sense to call C F A a Dm7 because of the scale/chords/key around it, but I'm not there yet. Inversions and triads and the general idea of figuring out what notes make up what chords makes sense to me (though not by memory yet). the root is the second least important chord tone (after the fifth) in determining tonality for major and minor chords. any chord you play with a given root has the same root, so the root is not an important distinguishing characteristic. you can outline changes with just the third, seventh, and extensions, and i encourage you to try doing so; you can sound extremely cool and modern, without actually doing much that's technically hard on guitar/piano (idk what you play, guessing it's one of those two.) it's also very important not to play the root too much in a band context, because the root and fifth are typically reserved for the bassist (dissonance sounds harsher in the lower registers, so bassists typically like to hang out in consonant areas.) lots of jazz music changes tonal centres frequently (giant steps being the most famous example), and it's also a very common improvisatory move to just play ii-Vs (it's important to make the ii lowercase, II is major) to chords that aren't i/I. you don't really need to think THE KEY IS CHANGING every time a ii-V goes somewhere besides what you're thinking of as the tonic, especially if it's only for a bar or two; just view it as temporary emphasis on the chord it's resolving to, that would eventually tonicize it if you repeated it for a while. modulation isn't a binary state; there are times where you step outside the key momentarily, there are times where you gradually work towards a new key centre, and there are times where you modulate super abruptly for effect.
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Feb 25, 2021 00:26
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creamcorn posted:the root is the second least important chord tone (after the fifth) in determining tonality for major and minor chords. any chord you play with a given root has the same root, so the root is not an important distinguishing characteristic. you can outline changes with just the third, seventh, and extensions, and i encourage you to try doing so; you can sound extremely cool and modern, without actually doing much that's technically hard on guitar/piano (idk what you play, guessing it's one of those two.) it's also very important not to play the root too much in a band context, because the root and fifth are typically reserved for the bassist (dissonance sounds harsher in the lower registers, so bassists typically like to hang out in consonant areas.) Thanks for this - it's helpful and I understand the point about roots and fifths. I'm mostly a guitar guy. Levine uses II when he means ii which I'm getting used to (also A-7 instead of Am7).
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Feb 25, 2021 01:57
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havelock posted:I'm sure this will be made clear as I get further through the book, i.e., some explanation for why it makes sense to call C F A a Dm7 because of the scale/chords/key around it, but I'm not there yet. Inversions and triads and the general idea of figuring out what notes make up what chords makes sense to me (though not by memory yet). when you are playing in a band setting, its often a good idea to avoid the root and fifth of a chord, like cream corn said, because the bass player will have those covered. if you are playing guitar by yourself (no bass player around), then C F A is just a C6sus4, aka F/C, aka F major in 2nd inversion. The root determines the chord! It's closely related to Dm7, because that's D C F A, and 3 of the notes are in common. But there are many other chords it is related to! Because if you play a different root, you get a different chord. code:If you rule out the C, F, and A root notes, the only consonant chords seem to be Dm7, G9sus4 (aka F/G), Bbmaj7sus2 (aka F/Bb)
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Feb 25, 2021 15:50
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havelock posted:Thanks for this - it's helpful and I understand the point about roots and fifths. i used this tool to write those chord symbols, its really valuable for guitar players! https://www.oolimo.com/guitarchords/analyze
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Feb 25, 2021 15:51
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Helianthus Annuus posted:i used this tool to write those chord symbols, its really valuable for guitar players! Bookmarked, thanks. And thanks for your replies - I'm nodding along while reading - feels like I'm on the right track. Edit: When trying to write a chord name from a set of notes, if the root determines the chord name, but we don't play the root because it's boring, how do I know if the low note is the root that we're choosing to play, or a 3rd or something else? That C-F-A example I gave actually had an A in the base clef as the lowest note, but was still written as Dm7, even though that's a 2nd inversion right? and by your explanation is actually an Amb6. havelock fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Feb 25, 2021 |
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Feb 25, 2021 19:04
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havelock posted:Bookmarked, thanks. And thanks for your replies - I'm nodding along while reading - feels like I'm on the right track. context. the chord is whatever function it's currently performing in the progression, regardless of inversion or notes you choose to omit. jazz and other forms of modern music care a lot less about inversions than classical does, it's not super important to know what inversion you're playing as long as whatever voicing you use voice leads smoothly to the next (or not smoothly, if you want a sharper sound; the important thing is to be conscious of the route you take between chords). you should definitely still learn how inversions work, they're an integral part of analyzing chord voicings, but you don't need to think about them while you play. can you tell me the page number so i can look at the example? out of context, i'm going to guess it's dm7 because the chord after it is g7 and you're in c major (ie ii-V7-I)
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Feb 25, 2021 19:23
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