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quadrophrenic posted:i'm just BARELY starting out with theory and i've been dicking around with modal interchange and i have a question: where do major 6th and 6/9 chords usually fit in a chord progression? my primary instrument is banjo, and the banjo has a fairly simple major 6th chord voicing and it sounds absolutely beautiful on the instrument, but there are very few cases when i'm writing a chord progression and the 6th chord just screams out to me "put me in this poo poo", which is a shame imo Suppose you want to play a maj7 chord, but the root of the chord is in the melody. So for example, Cmaj7 with C in the melody. It can sound pretty dissonant to have the maj7 in there right next to the root note in the melody. If that's not the vibe you're going for, one easy way to mellow it out is to drop the 7th down to a 6th to change it into a maj6 chord. So Cmaj7 (C E G B) can become C6 (C E G A) when C is in the melody, you turn the crunchy minor 2nd between the B and the C into a smooth minor 3rd between the A and the C.
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Jun 5, 2018 23:55
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Major 6 chords also share notes with minor 7 chords. C6 has the same notes as Amin7. I’d assume it could be used as a slightly smoother pivot between relative major and minor keys.
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Jun 6, 2018 00:23
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i'm trying to find the name of this chord on banjo it has the fingering code:this chord is (Ab - Db - E - Gb), and it sounds extremely dissonant when sounded together but has a nice sus4 quality when arpeggiated and i lead it into a chord w/ the notes (G - C - D - Gb) - which I also don't really know what to call. on first glance I figured it was (root - 4 - aug5 - dim7) which would be Absus4... what? Or would it be better to not even call the Db a 4th interval at this point, but rather an augmented 3rd? Also the chord overall has a Db minor flavor to it, so calling Db the root would yield: (root - minor 3 - 4) over Ab and i don't even know what the gently caress that is, and that's not even considering the high G i'm hopelessly confused, i've gotten fairly decent at knowing chord formulas for chords with a major/minor 3rd, but the 4th is throwing me off here. i clearly need to study chord construction more, if anyone can point me to some reading materials about this stuff it'd be greatly appreciated quadrophrenic fucked around with this message at 11:00 on Jun 9, 2018 |
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Jun 9, 2018 10:15
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Dbm11 with the 5th ontop?
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Jun 9, 2018 14:08
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quadrophrenic posted:i'm trying to find the name of this chord If I ignore the G as you suggest, putting the notes together in any order, I can come up with Gb7sus2. Although I think respelling those flats as sharps would be easier to understand, making F#7sus2. We have the root (F#), no third, fifth (C#), b7th (E), and 9th (or 2nd) (G#). 7sus2 chords aren't uncommon and sound very jazzy. The reason it's a sus2 chord is because there is no third (in this case it would be either A or A# depending on if the chord would be minor or major). There are 2 things to bear in mind with this. Firstly, as said, it ignores the G. Although if you add that back in you'd have F#9sus(b2) which is quite cool sounding. Despite having a different name to the previously mentioned chord, it's literally the same chord, same notes, but with a b9 as well as a 9. As long as the root, b9 and 9 are spaced apart they shouldn't clash, and in your fingering they are spaced apart. So it sounds cool. The second thing is, with your fingering the bass note is G#, so the 9 is in the bass. Not unheard of at all, but something to bear in mind when understanding the chord. Again, 9th in the bass sounds cool. Edit: Missed the other chord. The G C D Gb chord would make D11, because the Gb is in fact an F#, so you have root (D), 3rd (F#), no fifth but that's normal, b7 (C) and 11 (or 4th) (G). Stripping out the interesting notes, you've got a D7 and an F#7, which are chromatic mediants. It works because they share notes and the notes that do change mostly change by a semitone. I don't follow which way round you're playing those chords, but ending on a B major or G major chord might sound good. Konsek fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Jun 9, 2018 |
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Jun 9, 2018 21:25
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By the way, Adam Neely had a livestream last night with 12tone, 8-bit Music Theory, and Sideways. Pretty much all the best music theory guys on Youtube apart from Rick Beato. They cover a few topics like music degrees, using your inner ear, notating rhythms, what goes into making their videos, and other stuff. Worth watching. Definitely hope they do more! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZgLf4tUuhA Konsek fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Jun 9, 2018 |
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Jun 9, 2018 21:33
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^^^ pro click ^^^ Would love to see these guys collaborate on more stuff.
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Jun 10, 2018 05:42
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Konsek posted:If I ignore the G as you suggest, putting the notes together in any order, I can come up with Gb7sus2. Although I think respelling those flats as sharps would be easier to understand, making F#7sus2. We have the root (F#), no third, fifth (C#), b7th (E), and 9th (or 2nd) (G#). 7sus2 chords aren't uncommon and sound very jazzy. neat! in the doodling that i've been doing, i've been following that little vamp up with a Fm/D#, Fm7, Em7 run, that transition to which is very jarring and spooky/exotic and i haven't decided whether or not it's maybe a little TOO jarring, tho i do tend to like exotic jarring transitions in banjo compositions also Fm/D# - Fm7 - Em7 isn't maybe the best way to describe those chords, because you always have that high G drone in various states of diatonicity. one of the neat things about composing for the banjo is that the (rarely fretted) high G can sometimes just be like an Instant Jazz Pill to otherwise traditional diatonic composition, especially if you go out of your way to compose non-idiomatically. not a lot of banjo tradition has 7th chords in it, but just adding some simple 7ths and minor 7ths can give the banjo a kind of classical feel if you employ the drone strategically ofc, the downside is that it's tough to work banjo technique into jazz compositions, esp if you're like me and you play a clawhammer downstrokey frailing style, which works well in big boisterous folk settings and maybe not much for more delicate compositions. BTW, the idea for the F#7/D11 run came from dicking around with the practice method in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrkcGr5dIM4 ben levin has all sorts of videos like this, just nonconventional quirky ways of practicing composition that are fun when you need to take a break from ol' fashioned functional harmony
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Jun 10, 2018 06:01
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If the G is droning through multiple chords you don't need to think about it in the harmony, the brain just accepts it because it's consistently there. Also full disclaimer, I know literally nothing about banjo music so everything I wrote comes from theory rather than practical experience.
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Jun 10, 2018 08:32
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Konsek posted:If the G is droning through multiple chords you don't need to think about it in the harmony, the brain just accepts it because it's consistently there. Can you help me understand how this follows from theory? I thought you would say the drone serves a special function of some kind. e: btw didn't see this posted, 12tone started this https://twitter.com/music_babble
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Jun 10, 2018 17:33
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One of the things the guys in the stream mentioned was "music theory spinach" (as opposed to the more entertaining stuff they talk about in videos), and I wonder about it. I would love to be one of these guys who knows this stuff cold, and can rattle off things like this: "F phrygian is contained within the key of Db major, which has five flats." So I guess my question is: how do musicians go about memorizing this stuff? Or is there a better way to think about it other than memorization?
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Jun 10, 2018 17:50
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If there's a shortcut beyond just time and repetition, I don't know of it. It took me years to get a lot of that stuff down.
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Jun 10, 2018 19:32
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Helianthus Annuus posted:One of the things the guys in the stream mentioned was "music theory spinach" (as opposed to the more entertaining stuff they talk about in videos), and I wonder about it. There are a lot of interconnecting patterns so everything you memorize will aid you in memorizing something else.
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Jun 10, 2018 22:04
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Can anybody explain to me why major added 6th chords aren’t just minor 7th chords in inversion? For example, c-e-g-a being c major add 6 rather than a minor 7 in first inversion? Is it just because something works functionally considering the bass note as the root of the chord better?
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Jun 11, 2018 07:15
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from my understanding, it's the bass note, the same reason that minor sixth chords aren't just half-diminished chords in inversion.
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Jun 11, 2018 13:06
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Helianthus Annuus posted:Can you help me understand how this follows from theory? I thought you would say the drone serves a special function of some kind. There are different kinds of pedal points. You might play a tonic pedal in the bass, or to create more tension use a dominant pedal. For that dominant pedal a well known example is the C section of Fur Elise. quadrophrenic is using a pedal in the melody, which creates some harmonic tension. You could also have chord pedals, where you play one chord repeatedly while changing only the bass note. Ultimately all of these things can accomplish different things depending on how you use them, like using a bass pedal to create stability while going through a series of unusual chords, or creating an ambiguous feel with melody pedals. In my opinion I think it mainly helps create tension, and music is all about tension and release. But if anyone else has opinions feel free to chime in. Music is a mixture of theory and "this sounds cool". You can't analyse these chords with pedals because you'd end up with weird chords that make no sense. The brain accepts the pedal tones because of repetition. That's why in quadrophrenic's chords, they make more sense once you treat the G note as a pedal. Here look, Rick Beato can explain it way better than me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FsfGgz3Lpc Konsek fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Jun 11, 2018 |
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Jun 11, 2018 20:49
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PTSDeedly Do posted:Can anybody explain to me why major added 6th chords aren’t just minor 7th chords in inversion? For example, c-e-g-a being c major add 6 rather than a minor 7 in first inversion? Is it just because something works functionally considering the bass note as the root of the chord better? Same reason Pen Island and Penisland are different places: Context. They're the same chord in a vacuum but the C6 will be played over a C bass and will probably be backing up a melody in C.
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Jun 11, 2018 22:15
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I was listening to some crusty improv guy talking about how groovy it is to play the minor pentatonic a major third up from a minor root - so, playing G# minor over a section in the key of E minor. Is this just a happy coincidence or is there an explanation for this? It seems the only common note is the E, and the rest of the notes are altered.
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Jun 15, 2018 23:08
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Southern Heel posted:I was listening to some crusty improv guy talking about how groovy it is to play the minor pentatonic a major third up from a minor root - so, playing G# minor over a section in the key of E minor. E isn't even in G#m pentatonic -- the only note in common is B and everything else will be a minor second off of a major chord tone (including the root). If they're doing this it's either as a device to modulate to some other key or they're playing nothing but wrong notes because they're a smartass.
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Jun 15, 2018 23:46
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Southern Heel posted:I was listening to some crusty improv guy talking about how groovy it is to play the minor pentatonic a major third up from a minor root - so, playing G# minor over a section in the key of E minor. Can you double check this, and if its right, provide the original context? Because what you're saying isn't really jiving with me. Like, here's the E minor pentatonic scale: E G A B D And here's your Ab (same as G#) minor pentatonic scale: Ab B Db Eb Gb You said the common note is E, but when I write it out, I only see B as the common note. e: He didn't mean "minor 3rd" instead of "major 3rd" did he? Helianthus Annuus fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Jun 16, 2018 |
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Jun 15, 2018 23:57
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Hello Theory Thread, I play folk music on a two row DG tuned Diatonic Button Accordion/Melodeon, and I'm trying to explore one of the more difficult to play in keys that my instrument offers: B natural minor. I'm trying to make sense of how to use the limited selection of bass notes and chords to provide functional harmony/accompaniment while playing. My instrument is only able to (on the left hand side) provide the chords of G, D, C, A, B, and E minor (separate bass notes and chords for each) and by strategically combining buttons, A minor 7 (A bass + C chord) and B minor 7 (B bass + D chord). Normally I play in the keys of D, G, A dorian and E dorian/minor, and in these keys I have a pretty decent chord vocabulary of what I'm familiar with, and having the I and V chord for whichever key. I think I have a pretty limited music theory knowledge & education, that extends barely to the ideas of Functional Harmony (and even then my understanding has developed a lot this past week). When I find a video or tutorial of some kind that talks about the basics of Harmony, usually they don't approach it or extend on it from the idea of having limited options for chords and how to make the best of it and be exciting, but usually more how chromatic instruments can add depth and colour and a more interesting story. They also tend to make no bones about giving their examples in strange key signatures and it's usually too much all at once. There's also reasonable amount of examples and demonstrations of how to play my instrument's basses etc, but generally we're not the sort to extoll on theory so much, and I'd like to feel like I have a better understanding of why to play. For example, I only just now came to realise that the diagram in the OP is a real thing. For B natural minor, firstly, I have no true B minor chord, only Bm7, and no V chord, which would be F# minor. However, I do have the IV chord of E minor for sub/predominant function, and D major and G major which are the III and VI, which I believe can provide additional function? Finally, I believe A major, the VII, provides Dominant function, meaning that I guess I have coverage for all 3 functions and should be able to do alright. However, there's also a series of rules (e: on my instrument) about which chords can be actually be physically played against melody notes that will probably be quite hard to relate to unfamiliar people. Can anyone offer me advice on understanding, or where to go about reading about, or terms I might investigate, on why you might go about selecting particular diatonic chords over other ones when harmonising against a tune, so that when some of them are not available you're still able to make some sense and cover over what you're missing, or at least recognise when a tune may just not be going to sound right without a particular option being available. I already play quite a few tunes that do prefer certain diatonic chords over others in other keys, eg an E minor tune that relies on D chords over B minors, but I can't profess to understand quite why. Mastigophoran fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Jun 16, 2018 |
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Jun 16, 2018 02:41
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Can you post a pic of the layout for your instrument? Is it like this?  Or one of the other layouts on this page? http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/page,keyboard_2_row.html
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Jun 16, 2018 04:20
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Anime Reference posted:E isn't even in G#m pentatonic -- the only note in common is B and everything else will be a minor second off of a major chord tone (including the root). If they're doing this it's either as a device to modulate to some other key or they're playing nothing but wrong notes because they're a smartass. Helianthus Annuus posted:Can you double check this, and if its right, provide the original context? Because what you're saying isn't really jiving with me. Maybe we're getting mixed up with enharmonically equivalent scales, i.e. - G# Minor is G♯, A♯, B, C♯, D♯, E, and F♯ - Ab Minor is A♭, B♭, C♭, D♭, E♭, F♭, and G♭ The only thing I can even remotely scratch my head over is that in G# Minor there's the R-M2-P5 from E minor tonality, and potentially an M6 and blue note. Everything else is banana. EDIT: I'll try to dig up the context but it was an hour into one of about a dozen podcasts I listen to so it's unlikely to resurface. Southern Heel fucked around with this message at 12:06 on Jun 16, 2018 |
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Jun 16, 2018 07:39
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Southern Heel posted:EDIT: I'll try to dig up the context but it was an hour into one of about a dozen podcasts I listen to so it's unlikely to resurface. What are the music-related podcasts you listen to? I have a lot of mental downtime and want to start listening to some.
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Jun 16, 2018 10:42
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Mastigophoran posted:Hello Theory Thread, You mention you're using natural minor scales, where the V chord is minor (this is why harmonic minor was invented, raising the 7th degree turns the V chord major). I am not familiar with accordian or folk music, but I do know a lot of rock music in natural minor keys uses a major VII chord in place of a dominant V7 chord, which is why you find your E minor tunes relying on D major. I actually don't know why this is so common or what makes it sound "right", so if anyone else can chime in on that I'd be very interested. Another thing to consider is using a tritone substitution dominant chord, which is playing the dominant chord a tritone above the V7 chord. In the case of B natural minor that would be a C7 chord. If I understand what you say, I don't think you can play that chord but a regular C chord might work? On the subject of how to choose chords, if you're choosing the chords to go under a tune, you probably want to choose chords that have the notes of the melody which fall on the beat. This is sort of a reverse way of how a lot of tunes are written over chords, where you put chord tones on the beat and fill in the bits in between with the other notes. Then just follow the usual chord jobs, Tonic (I of course, but can also use vi and iii), pre-dominant (ii and IV) and dominant (V or V7 and viio), and you generally go from pre-dom to dom to tonic, see the first image in the OP. Minor is mostly the same, although natural minor does throw up the minor v chord thing as you know, in which case don't worry so much about functional harmony and use chords which accentuate the aeolian mode's unique properties, like using a VI-VII-i progression (I think I just accidentally answered the question from the previous paragraph here) If you watch this video, 12tone explains major key chord functions really clearly, and in the same playlist there's a video for chord functions in minor keys. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ot_lbUcb-uE Konsek fucked around with this message at 11:41 on Jun 16, 2018 |
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Jun 16, 2018 11:12
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Jazz Marimba posted:What are the music-related podcasts you listen to? I have a lot of mental downtime and want to start listening to some. No Guitar is Safe is my go-to, but it's a total crap-shoot as to which are just some blasted dude shredding while Jude is trying to interview them, versus some actual great discussion and jams. Steve Tarulli and the recent Joe Satriani ones were nice. I've also subbed to 60 Cycle Hum but that's more of a talk-show, and NPR's "All Songs Considered" is a bit of a cringefest. One of the best audio content decisions I made was to go through 'How to Listen to and Understand Great Music' - it's absolutely SPECTACULAR and fits right into the theme of this thread: https://www.audible.com/pd/Arts-Ent...aseCountry=true Music notation and form in the ancient world, development from modal to tonal harmony, the creation and breakdown of 'rules' via the introduction of increasing amounts of dissonance. Alot of it follows long form song construction (i.e. Fugues, Sonatas, Symphonies, etc.). Southern Heel fucked around with this message at 12:12 on Jun 16, 2018 |
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Jun 16, 2018 12:09
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Konsek posted:If you watch this video, 12tone explains major key chord functions really clearly, and in the same playlist there's a video for chord functions in minor keys. So, perhaps embarrassingly, I'd sort of went to the oldest 12 tone videos and watched forward from those and then it started getting too complicated and difficult to follow and I felt it wasn't really explaining what I wanted to know about, and found they weren't that helpful. This, though, was quite helpful and really helped show what it was about major scale diatonic chords that make those chords work - writing things down on a stave usually only does so much for me, it really helps to hear the difference, and what different harmonisation options sound like. The further video on how that applies to natural minor was also quite helpful - it basically goes on to say that, many of the reasons that make these functions more clearly defined in major do not apply as strongly in the natural minor scale, as the leading note is absent, and the 3rd doesn't provide as strong a feeling of home. I guess that's good for me, since I have a rather rag tag selection of chords! Helianthus Annuus posted:Can you post a pic of the layout for your instrument? Is it like this? You may be wondering, is it possible to find notes and make chords to smooth over what is missing on the melody side of the instrument? The answer is a 'yes, but...', for example, on mine this almost always sounds a bit too disjointed as the two ends sound quite different, although smoothing transitions like that is something I hope to work on. Plus, bellows direction is super important, and B minor seems to really tie up my hand with just playing the scale in a manner where it feels like I can best accompany it with the chords I do have, but, maybe that's an anchor. Melodeon.net is a great website as a resource for box players, however, trying to find information on playing in B minor there mostly eludes me as every few months there is a thread or posts about if B major or B minor makes more sense as a bass chord button on a DG instrument, their relative merits of each etc, rather than actually playing in that key, and it just fills the search results up. So is what I'm basically doing re/harmonising a tune, but, with simple chords? I guess one of my stumbling blocks is I kinda know how to harmonise/fix problems with the tunes I play in D/G and some extent Em, but these tools don't work for so well for B minor because I guess I don't have a fully working understanding of what I was actually doing, and I have lots of other messy vagaries from that process like substituting things like Em ~= G and Bm7 ~= D, so... does Fm7 ~= A? But... now I'm coming to see that G as G B D can also also ~= Bm in some cases. When I transpose a tune I know into B minor there's usually let's say quite a lot of problems to sort out, it just feels too different right now. I get that the chords I'd pick are about moving into the subsequent chords, but I still don't have a grip on why I might want to select a G over a D when going from Bm to Em or if it matters that much. So, what I'm going do is a) consume the building blocks series from 12 tone, and b) pick a folk tune in B minor that I like and just try and harmonise it, then display my failures for all to see and iterate on that a few times and hopefully if I'm getting less right than I could be someone can help me out.
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Jun 16, 2018 15:19
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Mastigophoran posted:Em ~= G and Bm7 ~= D, so... does Fm7 ~= A? Stop me if you've heard this one before, but this relationship is known as "relative minor" or "relative major". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_key The relative minor of A is not F minor, but F# minor. So, F#m ~= A and Fm ~= Ab You can prove this to yourself by playing an A major scale and counting up to 6. Or by playing an F# natural minor scale and counting up to 3. Mastigophoran posted:But... now I'm coming to see that G as G B D can also also ~= Bm in some cases. In the key of G major, the Bm is the iii chord (aka the "three", the "mediant"). And from your earlier example, the Em in the key of G is the vi chord (aka the "six", the "submediant", the "relative minor"). These chords (along with G major, the I chord) are all said to have tonic function. I wouldn't say they're totally interchangeable, because your listener is gonna feel something different depending on which chord you land on. But if you decide to substitute one for another, you can usually keep the rest of the song the same. To my ears, it feels easier to substitute the I chord (G major) and the vi chord (E minor), but the iii chord (B minor) can be very situational. Mastigophoran posted:When I transpose a tune I know into B minor there's usually let's say quite a lot of problems to sort out, it just feels too different right now. I get that the chords I'd pick are about moving into the subsequent chords, but I still don't have a grip on why I might want to select a G over a D when going from Bm to Em or if it matters that much. I would definitely pick whatever sounds good for the style of music you're playing rather than using theory to decide. But you don't need me to tell you that. Just to make sure I understand you: you're wondering about Bm => ??? => Em right? And I'm assuming you want Em to have tonic function. In that case, the conventional choice would be to use D => Em. If we're thinking about this in the key of G major (same notes as E natural minor) that would be called a "deceptive cadence." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadence_(music)#Interrupted_(deceptive)_cadence More generally, a "deceptive cadence" runs like this V => vi. An "authentic cadence" in this key would be D => G, or more generally V => I. On the other hand, thinking about it in terms of E minor, Bm => Em by itself is a v => i cadence, and if you jam an extra chord between them, it creates a nice little musical detour. In this case, I think the Bm => G => Em or v => III => i sounds better. Ok, I have some questions: Can you make a chord by pushing two or more buttons on the right hand side? If so, I wanna suggest using "chord shells" for your more awkward chords. https://www.thejazzresource.com/shell_voicings.html This idea is mostly relevant to chords that have 4 voices (e.g., 7th chords). The gist here is that you can omit the 5th from your chord, and it can still get the job done. Next, if you have to, you can omit the root from the chord. You're left with the 3rd and the 7th of the chord. Whatever interval that makes is enough to imply the color of the chord you have in mind. If you're looking to just play a triad, I guess I would keep the 3rd and the root, and lose the 5th. Next question: Do you think about inversions when you play? For example, suppose you want to play one of your bass notes (C, G, D, A, E, B) for each chord in the key of B minor (same notes as D major)  For the iii chord (F# minor) and the vii chord (C# diminished), you don't have a bass note on your left-hand side for either of those chords. But if you invert the chords, you can play one of the other tones in the bass, and the function of the chord remains the same. E.g. the iii chord, F# A C# can become A C# F# where you grab the A in your left hand, and play the C# and F# with the buttons on your right. And the vii chord C# E G can become E G C#. Again, the E comes from the left hand bass button, and the G and C# can come from the right hand buttons. Last question: Is this your only instrument? It sounds like you have to really fight your instrument in the key of B minor, and I get that this is sort of the point and the challenge. But as I sit here replying to you, I'm reasoning about the theory using a cheap casio toy piano. You might have luck sounding out different chord voicings on a piano, then moving over to your accordion to see if you can get something close to that. Helianthus Annuus fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Jun 16, 2018 |
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Jun 16, 2018 18:34
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Helianthus Annuus posted:Stop me if you've heard this one before, but this relationship is known as "relative minor" or "relative major". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_key Woops, fat fingered that one, yeah, F#m7. So, I know the relative major/minor deal, but, I guess what's throwing me off is how to really use it. So, as you say, in G major, Em is the VI chord, and provides tonic function, and I find that it's helpful to use that to keep things feeling like they're moving (for example, bar 2 vs bar 6). When I'm playing in the key of E minor though, the VI chord is now C major, which I see now is something I use in the same way all the time, in basically the same way - so, it wasn't so much that swapping between Relative Major <-> Relative Minor is what I was doing, but failing to recognise the role that the VI chord can play. Helianthus Annuus posted:Just to make sure I understand you: you're wondering about Bm => ??? => Em right? And I'm assuming you want Em to have tonic function. So... I'm not sure that that is what I'm wondering? What tends to happen with folk music is you can find about a billion folk tunes of a public domain or a 'released to the tradition' sort of nature, though often sadly there is some rather dubious provenance. But for the sake of example you might find The Rochdale Coconut Dance along with literally thousands of other tunes at ones fingertips. A lot of the time though, they do not come with chords or accompaniment advice. It's not unusual to just get a melody and have to figure the rest out yourself. It's really that task that I'm trying to feel more confident in doing. I tried to find some unquestionably traditional tunes to write chords for but I actually hard a really hard time doing so and I have no idea what policy on that kind of thing is here, so for now I'm keeping them to myself. Regardless, I grabbed a few tunes from these websites and tried writing chords for them, but, in the process of doing so, I found I was actually having a pretty hard time not completely avoiding the V chord of F#m, and even when specifically trying to find a space for it, I found it tough to slot in. (I tried with the Star of the County Down, The Plane Tree and Hop Break) Generally the tunes I've tried, I've been finding that the VII A major sits better to my ear against the notes that would run into B minor as we approach 'home', and I'm invariably using the III D major chord against F# notes that fall in the middle of the 'journey'. As soon as I go back to tunes I already play that use the V in their original key though, I'm like, gimme that F#m. Once transposed to B minor, I can't work out something for Theme Vannitaise that sounds good without access to F#m, but, I find it hard to want to use F#m in The Plane Tree. Helianthus Annuus posted:Ok, I have some questions: So, one can push 2 or more buttons. However, playing multiple right hand notes is something I really do not currently do and am not good at, as due to the push/pull nature of the instrument, it can be sort of a bit of a puzzle as to where to find harmonising notes and it can impact bellows direction (eg, to harmonise an A with a D, you must press/compress the bellows, but to harmonise an A with a C#, you must draw/expand the bellows). Feeling confident enough to integrate this kind of play into tunes I know, along with getting a feel for B minor, are my 2 current big goals in improving my ability to play. I'm also working on including some degree of inversion with my playing, where for example I might play g fundamental, G chord, b fundamental, G chord, or actually try to honour the request of sheet music that I come across that has eg "D/A", where they ask for an A bass note under a D chord. This is my main instrument and the one that I'm by far the most capable with - I'm very clumsy with a piano keyboard and find this system comes quite naturally to me. I do also strum some chords and 'sing' on a Baritoke Ukulele for fun on the side. If I want to do any experimenting, I either use an ABC music editor program on a PC or a DG melodeon simulator app I have on an iPad. I have experimented in the past with playing the low pull F# melody side over the A and D pull chords both played together. This provides: A3, A3, C#4, D4, E4, F#4 and F#4. If played for a short enough amount of time, I felt that you wouldn't notice the rather extraneous D that's hidden in the middle, however, without an F# bass fundamental button, the uses are limited. I really appreciate the responses! I watched a lot of the 12 tone videos, and while they still move way too fast and I feel fail to give enough examples, they have helped quite a bit wrt understanding chord function.
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Jun 17, 2018 05:48
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Mastigophoran posted:It's not unusual to just get a melody and have to figure the rest out yourself. It's really that task that I'm trying to feel more confident in doing. I tried to find some unquestionably traditional tunes to write chords for but I actually hard a really hard time doing so and I have no idea what policy on that kind of thing is here, so for now I'm keeping them to myself. Regardless, I grabbed a few tunes from these websites and tried writing chords for them, but, in the process of doing so, I found I was actually having a pretty hard time not completely avoiding the V chord of F#m, and even when specifically trying to find a space for it, I found it tough to slot in. (I tried with the Star of the County Down, The Plane Tree and Hop Break) I don't think there would be an issue if you threw a few tunes up if you wanted other posters to harmonise them. Don't get caught up in trying to fit the minor v chord into the progression just because functional harmony says you have to go V-I. If you're using strictly natural minor (also called Aeolian, by the way, it's a mode of the major scale), the V-I cadence won't work because the v is minor. This is why Harmonic minor was invented, to make the V major and give a strong cadence. A lot of composers and songwriters just switch in and out of minor modes/scales as they see fit, and don't stay strictly to just one scale. So you could consider using a major or dominant V instead of a minor v, or just embrace the aeolian/natural minor sound and forget about the v (if it doesn't fit that part of the song) and use that VII that fits so well. If you think F#m doesn't fit in The Plane Tree, well, don't use it. That's fine. Using the VII chord a lot is common in natural minor, and shares 2 of the notes from the v chord, so that can explain why it sounds good to you under the notes you're playing. If it sounds right to your ears then it probably is right, whether it's v or VII or whatever else. At the end of the day, music is about making something that you like the sound of, not solving a maths problem. Less Heinrich Schenker and more Michael Schenker. Mastigophoran posted:I really appreciate the responses! I watched a lot of the 12 tone videos, and while they still move way too fast and I feel fail to give enough examples, they have helped quite a bit wrt understanding chord function. Honestly search Youtube for what you want. I've been interested in a specific thing before, looked it up on Youtube, found videos with just a few hundred views which have been eye opening. Konsek fucked around with this message at 10:20 on Jun 17, 2018 |
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Jun 17, 2018 10:17
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I looked at a couple of the songs you posted, and I think I can help you out with figuring the chords. W/R/T your instrument, it looks like its easier for you to figure stuff out in G major / E minor. If you can get a good sounding chord progression in G major, you can just transpose the same chords to D major to get that B minor chord in there. I made a little chart for you below. Note how we use a capitalized roman numeral to indicate a major quality, and a lower-case roman numeral to indicate a minor quality. Note also that ø means half-diminished. That's just the diatonic chord built off the 7th degree of the major scale. I don't think its really used in this style of music, but I'm including it for the same of completeness. Last thing, I'm showing 7th chords here, but you can lop off the last note in each chord to get a basic major, minor, or diminished triad. I'm including the 7th chords here because a lot of the guys who talk about theory also traffick in 7th chords. You can replace any of these with a basic triad and it will be fine. code:Regarding how you decide which chords fit the melody... I looked at the first part of Theme Vannitaise, and I put the chords I would play in red.  One rule of thumb that will get you 90% of the way there: look at the first note of each phrase. In this style of music, that's probably going to match the root of the chord you want to play for that phrase. One exception to that: I marked Bm (iii chord) instead of D (V chord) in the first section, because I think you could play either-or and it would sound right. This is me taking liberties with the song, I wanted to make it feel like we're doing something different when we get to the D chord in the 2nd section. And I looked at a few of the other songs you linked last night. It seems like a lot of them like to start the first part in a minor tonality, starting on the vi chord, moving to the ii chord, maybe throwing a iii chord in there before moving back to the vi chord. Then the next part will have a major tonality, and will tend to move between the I chord, the V chord, maybe throwing a IV chord in there before moving back to the I chord. Anyway, once you have some nice chords figured out for the key of G major (E minor), and you'd like to transpose to D major (B minor) you can just pick the chord that has the same roman numeral.
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Jun 17, 2018 21:16
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwXAqIaUahI This is the Universal Mind of Bill Evans, and I think everyone reading this thread should check it out. Bill is talking in more abstract terms than what we usually talk about in this thread, but still very relevant. My guitar teacher once told me that piano players are more advanced than us (guitar players). I didn't really get it until I watched this and saw the grace and effortlessness with which Bill explores a musical space. I'll give my takes: 1) The experience of music is in some way universal to all people, regardless of musical background. 2) A song's melody is paramount, and musicians should avoid introducing any inaccuracies or glossing over any details in the melody. 3) Technical mastery comes before theoretical fluency. 4) Achieving any deep understanding of music is a lifetime of work. Success requires avoiding shortcuts, and learning to enjoy the process of discovery.
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Jun 17, 2018 21:30
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(NB: I reference quite a few chords by roman numeral in this post, when doing so I'm using I to be the natural minor key that we are in, not the Ionion root chord like you posted, sorry if that's confusing, I've tried to include the chord I'm talking about along with them)Helianthus Annuus posted:Anyway, once you have some nice chords figured out for the key of G major (E minor), and you'd like to transpose to D major (B minor) you can just pick the chord that has the same roman numeral. Thank you for the ideas for Theme Vannetaise. This is actually a tune I already play in E minor and have chords I sort of expect to play and hear - I'm far less familiar with the other tunes I've tried and I was trying to work out if my personal expectation was a big factor or not. Instead of Am, we typically play D major in both the A and B sections of the music, but we do play it into a B chord in a couple places just like you thought to place. I also like to play a C chord for bars 5 & 6 of the B music. The chord progression I typically in the band I play with is:  I guess we play a cheeky B7 chord for a bit of variety, I think it's because it was suggested by an accordion player who only has B major 7, and it doesn't clash particularly, so, in it went. But, we don't currently use that IV Am chord really at all in this tune, but principally we should be able to. It does feel like it could fit, although I should add that using the D chord works much better for me for a mechanical reason: the 2 bars of E minor will all be on the draw, and by playing D we can press the bellows, emptying the air back out of the instrument, where as the A bass would force us to also play at least somewhat on the pull. The thing is though that, you felt that adding that V Bm chord in gave the music a little bit of character, you "wanted to make it feel like we're doing something different when we get to the D chord in the 2nd section." - and quite rightly so, this tune as was seemed to want that V chord. This is exactly the sort of factor that I'm trying to understand I guess. If we transpose this tune into B minor, and use the same chord values, we'd end up trying to use that V chord, now the F#m, that I no longer have. I'd look like this:  And I'm trying to work out, ok, if I can't move through this chord, can I pick new ones to let me still play my basses but make this not sound dead and uninteresting? What is it about this tune or the chords I've picked that makes me feel like it wants this chord, and how can I change, massage or disrupt that so that I can make it sound like I don't have a problem with chord selection. I felt like, in this tune, if I cut the V chord and just have 2 bars of VII A chord in both the A and B music, it's too much: the V F# chord isn't really performing a different function here, it's just serving as a variety and making the music feel like it's moving, particularly in that last bar on each line. I liked your thought to use the IV chord, but felt like I could use my excess of tonic chords to try and smooth my way into it a little as it sounded a touch off. I also felt I should make sure that if any D notes were being played that I'd be playing push basses, and try hearing what that was like because that might switch up the A chords enough. I ended up with this:  So I guess I've been trying to look for/work out is what the strategies are to 'save' my VII chord of A for when I really need it and ensure it doesn't outstay it's welcome. Harmonising for The Plane Tree I found I had different 'issues', and these were more of what I had expected when I posted originally. I found that there were really several good fits, and some sounded good in sequence, some not. As this tune seems to like to change chord twice per bar, I found it was specifically selecting between Em vs G, or D vs A, is what would put me on or off of a course where I felt the V chord was what was needed. Comparing 2 strategies for the first line: code: I think both of these paths through these first 4 bars work, but one of the paths lets me dodge that missing V chord. Using bar 2 as a case study, the tune is looking for something here, and IV Em to I Bm transition does... something to satisfy it? An option I don't show here, VI G to I Bm, didn't feel like it had the same effect (Maybe because they both have the tonic?), but, going from VI G to V F#m did seem to work. IV Em to V F#m here actually didn't really sound right to my ear, so I didn't show that either. All I really know is that I have chords that include & harmonise with the notes in the bar - eg it has G and E in it so either G or E minor are top picks. Those then form a path through the music. Some paths sound more good than other paths, and some paths are going to sound best when including chords I don't have, and I'm searching for I guess an understanding of what the paths that work are doing to try and be like, 'ah hah', and apply that knowledge of similar tools to dodge problems. It has been very hard to explain this, and I don't really have the words to explain anything, so, I really appreciate you taking the time to check out the tunes I linked and respond to me.
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Jun 18, 2018 06:15
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Yeah B7 => Em (V => i) instead of Bm => Em (v => i) works nicely because of what Konsek said about harmonic minor earlier. Thinking about this in the kay of E minor, the difference between E natural minor and E harmonic minor lets the v chord (Em or Emin7) become a V chord (E or E7). Another way to think about the same thing, but in a G major context: B7 acts like a secondary dominant, which resolves to the vi chord of G major, which is E minor. Regarding what to do about the F#7 or F#min that you can't play: Konsek talked about tritone substitution earlier. That means Bm => A => F#7 => Bm can become Bm => A => C7 => Bm, because F# and C are a tritone apart. This works well in jazz, but this might not fit with the style of music you're playing. And you would probably have to get the rest of the band to play C7 too, I don't think it would sound good for you to play C7 while everyone else is on F#7. How close are you to being able to use right-handed chording in a song? I think this is what you will need to do in order to play in all 12 keys. Its better to use chord shell voicings with the melody buttons than try to substitute functionally similar chords, especially if you're trying to substitute different chords while the rest of the band plays the original chords. I know you mentioned that switching from your usual way of playing to right-handed chording might sound funny, but I bet it would sound just fine on a passing chord like the F#7 in Theme Vannetaise (when played in B minor).
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Jun 19, 2018 03:16
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Helianthus Annuus posted:How close are you to being able to use right-handed chording in a song? I think this is what you will need to do in order to play in all 12 keys. Its better to use chord shell voicings with the melody buttons than try to substitute functionally similar chords, especially if you're trying to substitute different chords while the rest of the band plays the original chords. I know you mentioned that switching from your usual way of playing to right-handed chording might sound funny, but I bet it would sound just fine on a passing chord like the F#7 in Theme Vannetaise (when played in B minor). Haha, so, I really have no illusions of being chromatic. But you really don't see too much outside the keys of 1-3 sharps in English/Irish/Scottish folk music. I think if I was 'stuck' playing this particular instrument in a situation where I was playing outside my keys I would absolutely be looking to chord or provide rhythm in some way. In a band situation, certainly muddling around trying to be like 'oh can we change the basses' isn't really on, and bulking up my sound with some right hand chording is the thing to do, or really swap instrument, but, I also sometimes fly solo and am working on a duo with my husband (mandolin), so, a little bit of B minor here and there could be cool and it's in those circumstances when switching up my sound might be more noticeable (all the more reason to do it, but, to also have a handle on it and include it in the arrangements). Also, I'm super interested in using C major as a tritone chord at some point now! I did set myself the task of practicing 3rds and 5ths scales I worked out, to just get into the feel of playing multiple buttons at once on the right hand side, but, right now I'm really not spending any of my time doing this. I've mostly been using my time in favour of learning a few more complicated, fun, unusual or fast moving tunes that keep my hands moving around the instrument - it's just what I've been enjoying more at the moment. I've been playing quite a few E harmonic minor tunes (to justify to myself that I definitely want a B major chord rather than the B minor chord some people choose on their left hand basses) and exploring quite a few tunes that involve using the accidental buttons, to try and ensure I have a good idea of if their current orientation is really the one I prefer. This is a little bit because I'm looking to buy another one of these bizarre instruments, and I get to say how I'd like it to be set up and I want to be as not wrong as possible. But yeah, I didn't really have any solid things to apply myself towards anyway, so, developing an arrangement that explores shell chords could be a great idea. Due to the scale range I have, playing in B minor pushes me a ways up the keyboard, giving me access to around an octave's worth of notes that would sit below that B4 home note. I guess then my shell chord for F#m7 could either be F#4 + E4, or F#4 + A3 or A4? I guess paired with A bass if on the pull, if it sounds like it would work. I should work on an arrangement that includes these and just see how it plays, maybe I'll start with seeing if I can finger aspects of the transposed chord sequence I had (Bm -> A -> F#m) in some way, and then try to add the tune on top? The main thing I'll have to be wary of are the forced bellows direction changes on the notes right above the B, as the C# D and E notes all require swapping, so, might take me a bit to make sure I'm finding the right notes at the right time. Fun times ahead!
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Jun 19, 2018 05:09
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Mastigophoran posted:I guess then my shell chord for F#m7 could either be F#4 + E4, or F#4 + A3 or A4? I guess paired with A bass if on the pull, if it sounds like it would work. For the F#m7 shell, the most important thing is that both A and E are both in the chord. The root, F# is optional. When making chord shells out of 7th chords, try using the "guide tones" or the 3rd and the 7th of the chord. The guide tones in F#min7 would be A (the minor 3rd) and E (the minor 7th). The guide tones in F#7 would be A# or Bb (the major 3rd) and E (the minor 7th, again). F#7 resolves strongly to Bm so learning that one would be ideal. But if I understand your instrument's layout, you can only ever get an A# on the push, and you can only ever get an E on the pull. You need that tritone interval between A# and E to get that unmistakable dominant 7th chord sound. In case you actually can get those notes at the same time, try playing an E in the bass, plus A# and F# in the right hand, then see how that sounds resolving to Em. Or just grab E and A# in the right hand side, without bass, and see how that works. You could also learn to play C7 (tritone-sub for F#7). Loots a little bit easier for you, because I think you can get a C in the bass in either direction, then just grab Bb and E (again) on the right hand side. If you wanna focus on F#min7 instead, that seems much more attainable because you can get either an E or an A in the bass. Then pick an A or an E (respectively) and the F# from the right-hand side. If you can get C# (the 5th) in there too, then you'll have the full F#min7 chord. e: If you can only play this F#min7, and the band calls for F#7, you can play the F# and the E. If you can get C# (the 5th) in there, cool. But leave out the A so it doesn't clash with the A# the band will be playing. Helianthus Annuus fucked around with this message at 07:12 on Jun 19, 2018 |
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Jun 19, 2018 07:07
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Helianthus Annuus posted:But if I understand your instrument's layout, you can only ever get an A# on the push, and you can only ever get an E on the pull. That is indeed the rub; the plates have to be one way around or the other and the way I've chosen sadly precludes this. They used to be the other way around but I've been finding this way seems to work better for me. However, to play the notes that the chord would be played underneath in Theme Vannetaise, if we were to play it in Bm, they happen to be a D and an C# so, that actually requires playing one way and then the other, so, maybe 6 of one and half a dozen of the other is called for. I pretty just jammed in what I felt could fit throughout the whole tune, with what I should have access to. Since most of the chords aren't 7ths, I didn't had the 7 (I tried it and it sounded a bit weird in midi), and when the low tonic wasn't available on the right hand side, I added the 5th, which might not be something I need to play since these are all on the 'Oom' part of the bar, so they'll be paired with the fundamental note on the left hand side. I went through and wrote myself a 2nd part though, basically, adding rests where I'll have to release, and trying to make sure the bellows directions match correctly. I've tried to indicate what should be happening in brackets but made a hash of it since I missed the F#m7's 7:  I mean I know I'm probably doing this wrong but this is my first guess at what might be possible, although I'm not sure my fingers are going to be very happy. Am I making a massive hash of it? It seems like at the very least I will be generating different notes that should imply the chords I'm searching for. Maybe. At the very least the midi sounded pretty decent.
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Jun 19, 2018 08:58
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If it sounds good, it is good! In the 4th bar, you're playing F# and A# with D in the melody moving to an F# and E with C# in the melody. F# A# and D make an augmented 5th chord, which sounds cool to me. It feels like the chord can resolve well to B minor. I didn't think about using an augmented chord as a substitute. Then you move to E F# and C#, which I guess I could call a F#7 no3 in 3rd inversion, because the minor 3rd (A) is not played. But the major 3rd (A#) is also not played. So this chord's tones could sound good against either an F#7 or an F#min7. So as played, it's ambiguous, but that's not necessarily a problem. If you can play both of those chords on your instrument, see how it sounds when you play the no3 chord (F# C# and E) first, then the augmented chord (F# A# and D), then the resolution to B minor. Or keep it the same if you like it better, I don't actually know how this sounds on your instrument. Helianthus Annuus fucked around with this message at 06:49 on Jun 20, 2018 |
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Jun 20, 2018 06:47
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Bach's C# Major Prelude & Fugue
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Jul 4, 2018 21:32
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Hey Jacob Collier fans: here's a bootleg video of his lecture at Berklee https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEjh5rB_L8I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFSD18ORI00
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Jul 8, 2018 18:46
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