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Genghis Cohen posted:I mean in vanilla, under current rules and in a continuum which has lasted since I started in N2, there's no reason to take most mid-ranged or mid-priced brawlers. Lists are dominated by long range gunfighters, powerful assault pieces, and cheap trading and support pieces, maybe with a smattering of utility specialists and disposable attack pieces with more rounded weapons. Thank you for this validation, this is what it seems like is happening in my games but I didn't know if it was me sucking or actual bias in the game.
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Mar 13, 2024 01:48
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Midjack posted:Thank you for this validation, this is what it seems like is happening in my games but I didn't know if it was me sucking or actual bias in the game. This is a fairly common result in a lot of strategy games and in particular seems to happen with algorithmic pricing (e.g. unit has x stats therefore costs y amount, as opposed to "just feels like it should cost y points"). Which I'm generally a fan of, but this is a pitfall to be aware of.
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Mar 13, 2024 02:11
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Infinity is funny because it 'used' to be priced algorithmically but for the last three years all the new abilities have been free and they give +burst at no charge to anything they want you to use
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Mar 13, 2024 02:59
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Genghis Cohen posted:I think the exact changes you're proposing...would make it counterproductive for players to build Fireteams at all. That is the goal. I want Fireteams gone. If that isn't an option, nerfing them is a fair compromise. I know it will never happen and I am unrealistically extreme in my viewpoint, but I just dislike the entire thing so much. The changes to Wildcards and how bonuses are partially built on "pure" teams were a good start. Genghis Cohen posted:It's a real challenge for CB because there are a LOT of profiles around now which exist to be included in Fireteams. Conversely, there are a lot of units which thematically and aesthetically would be good to have in the game, but the only design space which makes them playable is to build a Fireteam with them. One thing that plays into this, and needs to go too afaik, is the Impetuous/Frenzy discount but the actual skill getting cancelled by a fireteam. Comparing something like the ML profile for Riot Girls, Tanko and Teutons to the Zuyong shows a real problem. Create FTO profiles without Impetuous but with a points increase, or make it so they are Impetuous unless outnumbered in the team by non-Impetuous models or something, but not this. Maybe a "Leadership" model that needs to be in the team to calm them down, with a less ideal profile as a tax to remove Impetuous from the other models. Just spitballing, first time I think about this aspect.
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Mar 13, 2024 08:51
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Midjack posted:Thank you for this validation, this is what it seems like is happening in my games but I didn't know if it was me sucking or actual bias in the game. Infinity is an incredibly lethal game for its game pieces, so any skills/gear/stats that don't directly and significantly impact d20 rolls (or dont provide opportunities to bypass them) are seen as bloat. Lethality and high variance of d20 are fundamental to the engine (and are its original sin imo) so you either learn to live with them and tolerate or don't.
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Mar 13, 2024 10:23
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Army updated. https://infinitytheuniverse.com/blog/torchlight-army-update
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Mar 13, 2024 14:21
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Raveneyes are great as is, but the Holomask +1 Order LT puts the Hafza to shame.
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Mar 13, 2024 14:40
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BioTech posted:That is the goal. I want Fireteams gone. If that isn't an option, nerfing them is a fair compromise. Personally I think including a big complex rules section, but making it an actively bad idea, would be an incredibly unappealing trap for new players! But I get you're not being completely literal. I am OK with the idea of restricting teams to 'pure' to get certain bonuses. But I think the energy would have been better spent rethinking what the bonuses could be. As is, composition only matters for 4-5 model teams. Even worse, there is no consistency to who gets composition bonuses: Morats is basically everyone can compose pure teams, Corregidor only gets some support units to count as their line infantry. So it seems very random, game balance between factions is still workable, but there doesn't seem any coherent plan about some capabilities being locked out of pure Cores, and some not. Fully agree about the Frenzy/Impetuous discount. It just isn't honest game design. "These units are wild and aggressive. Players are encouraged to take them in disciplined units." What? Personally I would like to see any changes that move away from the defensive Core bunker. I often include one when playing a Sectorial, and I think in their absence, CB should be thinking about what other Reactive tools are widely available. But they are just boring to deploy and play. I don't feel the same hate for 3-model teams. Those seem fine, although I would be interested to see if they worked without the Burst bonus. If Fireteams were removed or severely nerfed, there would absolutely need to be a concomitant balance pass where a lot of units which were purely Fireteam-fodder got reworked or repriced. BioTech posted:Raveneyes are great as is, but the Holomask +1 Order LT puts the Hafza to shame. Yeah, I said in the GH article that I think it challenges the Daoying for 'best Lt in the game'. Especially since the Sectorial can also take a 12pt, useful decoy and/or a 15pt CoC model.
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Mar 14, 2024 16:02
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Genghis Cohen posted:Fully agree about the Frenzy/Impetuous discount. It just isn't honest game design. "These units are wild and aggressive. Players are encouraged to take them in disciplined units." What? I'm ambivalent on most fireteam stuff because I've been out of the game for a while, but on a base thematic level this style of fireteam bonus really only works for me for stuff like the Oznat + Pretas setup where you have a leader controlling a pack of something wild.
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Mar 15, 2024 05:36
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stabbington posted:I'm ambivalent on most fireteam stuff because I've been out of the game for a while, but on a base thematic level this style of fireteam bonus really only works for me for stuff like the Oznat + Pretas setup where you have a leader controlling a pack of something wild. Yeah, thematically that works better. It's still a bit of a suspicious 'Fireteam optimisation' measure though, where the troopers become significantly more valuable in a Fireteam than outside. Which, again, totally thematically appropriate in that case. But tricky for game balance. How do you make a unit which is takeable in vanilla, and still manageable in its vastly improved Sectorial-fireteam version? I suppose the answer is differing point costs. You could say that Sectorials can/should have some better units, to make up for the lack of choice. But difficult to do that without Sectorial lists becoming very predictable due to certain auto-takes.
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Mar 15, 2024 11:02
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Fireteams have always been a bit of an issue since they were added but the cats out of the bag now and I think there's no going back. I think the game plays better without them but we've got them and that's it. Fwiw they are less of an issue than camo used to be.
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Mar 16, 2024 11:15
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Had a fun tournament last weekend, but for some reason I keep trying to make Taowu work. Not really sure what it is, but something about the profile appeals to me. Counterintelligence is useful, +1B E/Marat is great, CC18+NBW+Para-6 can shut down a lot and +1B Viral Pistols give him some options, but Holomask means you are hiding an additional specialist and that can be very useful in things like Last Launch. Lately I've been Holomasking him as an expensive HI model, without MSV, weak template weapon, usually Qiang, sometimes Shang Ji HRL Put him in a "bad position", no LOF for their range, but enough to cover 6+ inches to a corner with the template so your opponent won't risk a warband. Wait for something like Su-Jian, Hippolyta to come in and try to tank the template in exchange for a kill, only to shut them down with E/Marat. Taowu is probably dead, but it does shut down a more expensive attack piece. Yet I still think this is a lot prepwork, a lot of maybes and a lot of hopeful thinking for it to work. The only time he was useful is when I jumped a Squalo, who shot at "Qiang", only to get hit by 2 E/Marats. Sadly he passed all 4 saves.
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Mar 19, 2024 14:21
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BioTech posted:Had a fun tournament last weekend, but for some reason I keep trying to make Taowu work. I'm much the same - super interesting profile, but can't seem to get much out of him in lists or on the table.
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Mar 19, 2024 18:04
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There's three steps to leveraging holomask and I've found it's incredibly specific to pull it off: 1. sell your opponent on the deception (this is the easy part) 2. get them to do something based on the deception (harder) 3. make them regret doing that thing (really loving difficult) like the example with fake Gao going after the Squalo, not only did you go to him with your own orders, he was never gonna do anything other than shoot. Gao is not a whole lot less dangerous with B3 DAM13 breaker pistols. Tao Wu is probably too expensive and unreliable for any trick to ever be worth it. He's gonna need another heaping helping of free loving skills first. The only holo trick I ever liked that didn't involve a Hafza was a bashi holo'd as a warcor, because if your warcor is loving around in a quiet area of the board nobody is gonna seek him out. Then, whoops, he's a specialist with a rifle+lsg, and IT'S ON.
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Mar 20, 2024 00:54
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Under 15 posted:like the example with fake Gao going after the Squalo, not only did you go to him with your own orders, he was never gonna do anything other than shoot. Gao is not a whole lot less dangerous with B3 DAM13 breaker pistols. I think 2 E/Marat templates are a far bigger problem for a TAG or any HI unit than those Breaker Pistols. It really is the 10+ range of the large template and being able to force 4 (!!) half BTS saves without rolling to hit to effectively lock them down into Reset -12 rolls for the rest of the game unless they have an engineer. If you can hit a link or some useful LI and just get Isolated at -9 without Immobilize it is probably still worth it. I am overly worried about Su-Jian and TAG alpha strikes, so it probably depends on the meta too. Under 15 posted:Tao Wu is probably too expensive and unreliable for any trick to ever be worth it. He's gonna need another heaping helping of free loving skills first. Still agree with this, though. Under 15 posted:The only holo trick I ever liked that didn't involve a Hafza was a bashi holo'd as a warcor, because if your warcor is loving around in a quiet area of the board nobody is gonna seek him out. Then, whoops, he's a specialist with a rifle+lsg, and IT'S ON. Hafza HRL is dirt cheap and can surprise link teams. Keep it as a decent ARO piece like Djanbazan sniper, linked HMG will engage and you have pretty decent odds to place a template on a team. This does require a greedy opponent, bundling up things close to the link leader. Once I lucked into an opponent using White Noise to block "Djan's" MSV2 and just walked his whole team out. Can't rely on that happening, but at the time it was the best 17 points I ever spent. My Hafza LT is usually Holomasking as Knauf. Prone on a roof, guarded by some cheap template like a Digger, most opponents will take care not to end their turn in line of sight. This makes it easier for your stuff to advance, bring in parachutists, etc.
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Mar 20, 2024 08:38
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDHt5do5r4w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opfD9qckERI
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Mar 22, 2024 03:58
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Is anyone here dabbling in War Crow? I've been looking at the Scions
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Mar 22, 2024 20:15
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I forgot it existed until I saw that video
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Mar 22, 2024 20:38
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Yeah, its not actually clear if its even available, or if its just the kickstarter for now? The website is bare bones.
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Mar 22, 2024 20:42
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The Kickstarter hasn't even been fulfilled yet, one of my group bought it and hasn't mentioned getting anything.
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Mar 22, 2024 22:41
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Any Haqq touchers mind explaining Ramah and Hassassins? I haven't played in quite a while but fancy some Haqq.
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Mar 29, 2024 11:53
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What's to explain? Hassassins are, well, all of the Hassassin units (and Daylami, for comedy options) and Ramah is all the heavy/skilly stuff like Janissaries and Djanbazans and al-Mukhtar. Both are lots of fun to play.
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Mar 29, 2024 15:43
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Flipswitch posted:Any Haqq touchers mind explaining Ramah and Hassassins? I haven't played in quite a while but fancy some Haqq. Hassassins have a gameplay that is both pretty tricky and surprisingly simple: impersonation is an utterly terrifying skill and you can get 3 of the drat things on the board, Asawiras are an outrageously good and fire team-able Heavy Infantry, and you have good hacking+pitching. You've got options but the general plan is to use your Fiday(s) to hamstring your opponent out the gate and then sweep up with Asawiras. Piloting Fidays effectively is, from what better players tell me, the big question, and while the most obvious option is to go in and slice up the backlines so you start on an orders-advantage, it's perfectly good to just stage-dive a TR bot/sniper or put an impersonator in a really annoying to dig out spot but not actually reveal them and thus force your opponent to either spend a ton of orders taking that out or walking critical offensive units past, well, an assassin. Also Daylamis and Ghazis are extremely efficient cheap units, it's if anything a common mistake to take too many of them, hampering your regular orders pool. Ramah I never had much luck with, my experience with them was feeling like I was always just on the edge of making something good. Lots of units that pay for a ton of cool special rules but on a very squishy, vulnerable chassis. The less squishy units include Maggie (a favorite of mine but honestly a bit overpriced), Jannisaries (feel like they just don't quite get above 'normal for HI"), Al Fasid (very cool but kind of all over the place), and Tarik (ok this guy rocks). Mukhtars are the thing that felt the most special to me, the Hacker Mukhtar is an obscenely good classified completer.
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Mar 29, 2024 23:17
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Yeah Hassassin looks about the same as I remember them in N3, Ramah are new and seem cool.
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Mar 29, 2024 23:41
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For RTF, the Zhayedan counts as ghulam with marksmanship. Makes for a great aro core. AVA 2 Maggie for extreme lols. And I love the Namurr, if you can deliver her, she will smash all the tags.
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Mar 30, 2024 00:31
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Looks like no April Fool's gag from Warsenal this year.
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Apr 1, 2024 17:02
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This month's releases look well weird. What's the weird demon dude for Nomads?
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Apr 4, 2024 11:04
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Flipswitch posted:This month's releases look well weird. What's the weird demon dude for Nomads? That is a Daemonist Observant. Basically O12's Alpha, but better because it is Nomads.
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Apr 4, 2024 12:39
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BioTech posted:That is a Daemonist Observant. I mean, I don't know how tongue in cheek you're being, but the Daemonist is not a competitive choice. So before getting into the weeds of why I think that is, I would appeal to the evidence: it doesn't appear in any competitive players' lists, the dominant Lt choice for Nomads is still a Moderator and a decoy. I don't know if the Alpha is considered a competitive choice, I certainly wouldn't discard it and I have played against it a few times. Basically, this is all down to cost. Both are super obvious Lts. But the Alpha is 24pts to the Daemonist's 36. Also, O-12 can access 15pt Ments as CoC, or Cho under holomask for a bit more. Nomads are stuck with one Kulak option which is like 29? Basically, even though it's a pretty good Lt (provided you take one of the good NCOs Nomads get) you just pay too much for the privilege. It is significantly tougher than the Alpha, but that's at the cost of being hackable. So you can really easily find yourself in Loss, regardless, unless you took that prohibitively expensive Kulak. Ultimately, while Loss of Lieutenant is a threat, most players would rather mitigate against it partially (with a cheap Lt and decoy, in two separate, protected deployment spots) than pay a load of points to get marginal order benefits and a CoC piece. Because you don't dare use the expensive Lt until round 3, points spent on it are inefficient.
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Apr 4, 2024 14:11
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Genghis Cohen posted:I mean, I don't know how tongue in cheek you're being, but the Daemonist is not a competitive choice. I am quite serious. Don't know enough about Nomads to go in real deep, though, so that is probably why you see it differently. I'll try to explain what I can. Genghis Cohen posted:So before getting into the weeds of why I think that is, I would appeal to the evidence: it doesn't appear in any competitive players' lists, the dominant Lt choice for Nomads is still a Moderator and a decoy. It is a pretty new profile and doesn't have a model out, or an easy existing proxy. I think that plays into it. Looking at open Lt missions like Decapitation (wasn't there another one? Hunters or something?) it seems a great choice. By Moderator and a decoy I think you mean 2 Moderators, but this thing already brings its own decoy, aside from LT advantages like WIP14 and Counterintelligence. That is on top of the increased survivability. Sure it costs more and only generates 1 order, but looking only at orders I think 2 LT orders is fair if you have any decent NCOs. Genghis Cohen posted:I don't know if the Alpha is considered a competitive choice, I certainly wouldn't discard it and I have played against it a few times. I use it and see it all the time. A very tight profile, providing 3 regular orders and all you want in an LT; WIP 14, Counterintelligence, Strategos and some of the best odds against Impersonators trying CC. You are completely correct about it being backed by cheap CoC, or even a second Alpha, at far lower cost than what Nomads can manage and that is probably where my lack of Nomad knowledge hurts my argument. Genghis Cohen posted:Basically, this is all down to cost. Both are super obvious Lts. But the Alpha is 24pts to the Daemonist's 36. Also, O-12 can access 15pt Ments as CoC, or Cho under holomask for a bit more. Nomads are stuck with one Kulak option which is like 29? Basically, even though it's a pretty good Lt (provided you take one of the good NCOs Nomads get) you just pay too much for the privilege. It is significantly tougher than the Alpha, but that's at the cost of being hackable. So you can really easily find yourself in Loss, regardless, unless you took that prohibitively expensive Kulak. Ultimately, while Loss of Lieutenant is a threat, most players would rather mitigate against it partially (with a cheap Lt and decoy, in two separate, protected deployment spots) than pay a load of points to get marginal order benefits and a CoC piece. Because you don't dare use the expensive Lt until round 3, points spent on it are inefficient. I agree the Daemonist isn't as finetuned, with +1LT Order instead of +1LT Order and Strategos L1 being a big difference (know nothing about NCOs in Nomads), but the Alpha being obvious and very frail was what made it balanced. Guard is going to keep you save from anything trying to F2F you up close, but if they have a template you are absolutely screwed. It has a large footprint and can't hide, but might, at best, take its killer with it, which really doesn't mean that much since you just lost your Lt. The Daemonist has the ability to tank that template, a better chance to take out the attacker (+1 PH) and you keep your Lt. It won't be killed by the one warband making it through, and probably not even by the Fiday laying down 2 LSG templates. That is if you even find the right one, because it has Decoy. If, for some reason, you can't or won't use guard as ARO a Damage 14 Continuous Damage Vulkan template is a lot better than a Damage 13 LSG one in whatever trade your are doing. Actively I think the +1B LSG has a role, but would probably prefer the Vulkan. Kind of a moot point, since it is unlikely either model will be used like this even in Turn 3. Hackable, sure, but at WIP14 ECM Hacking -3 you have good odds against just about any hacker. Again, that is if they don't spend those orders to get within 8" or shoot pitchers or whatever and find out it was the Decoy. And honestly, even if this is an unstoppable surprise attack Nomads being good at hacking means they have the best tool to punish that hacker, so it is unlikely they get more than one shot. Yes, it is an additional vulnerability, but one where you have good defenses and comparing how often I get shot vs how often I get hacked I think it is definitely a net win.
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Apr 4, 2024 15:14
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 geez I didn't realize the DC area was such a shark tank for this game. Of the ten people I've had as opponents, all at local shops, three of them are world ranked and two more are national ranked players Winning one against an unranked opponent and tying one against a world ranked opponent is still not doing very well but puts the losses into some perspective.
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Apr 21, 2024 04:07
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BioTech posted:I am quite serious. I think your points are fair in detail. But overall I do think that points cost is the ultimate problem, and I don't think the Daemonist is competitive. I do agree it's a good choice for Decapitation, or even something like Firefight where opponents are incentivised to attack the Lt and there are extra avenues for them to do so. Decoy is a bonus that can cost your opponent one extra order to attack half the time. But because it has to be within 8" it doesn't have the same effect as an alternate Lt candidate. Those you want to deploy in a completely different sector of the table, so your opponent has a prohibitive order cost to commit to attacking one or the other. For the Daemonist's overall stats and ECM, those might occasionally save you from disaster. But against competent opponents, if they've committed to a T1 pitcher alpha strike against your Lt, they should just spend the extra 1-2 orders until they get through. (Pitchers are a good example of the decoy problem - there's usually a way the opponent can place the pitcher to affect both targets) Similarly, if they can draw LoF to your big old S4 base, it's going to be with a shooter capable of hammering through the ARM and W, even if it takes a bit more time. Good to discuss this sort of thing! And stats do decide things sometimes. I had a game the other day when ECM was what saved my Gator from T1 Oblivion for like 4 orders in a row. Was amazing. Unfortunately luck went just as drastically the other way when I actually came to use it and I lost it to ARO!
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Apr 21, 2024 20:39
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