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Jokers Gamble
May 31, 2013


precision posted:

We did see her, she was the one who was really nervous and nice and she kept putting off the handmaid ritual by saying she had a headache or something. Emily wasn't lying when she said "a wife was kind to me once", she was referencing that.

I thought that was a different family she was assigned to after she was black bagged. Maybe I missed something but wasn't that when she was replaced. Maybe the timeline is off in my head.

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precision
May 7, 2006

Gonna have me some good friends around
Gonna have me some good times in town


Actually you may be right. I'm not 100% sure either.

esperterra
Mar 24, 2010

There are no such things as miracles.




Emily was assigned to a new family before being sent to the colonies, yes.

mcmagic
Jul 1, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 12 days!


Nazi stinkyhole indeed

cocoavalley
Dec 28, 2010

Well son, a funny thing about regret is that it's better to regret something you have done than to regret something you haven't done

I suppose this is how we know that Serena is actually unable to carry a pregnancy. The way she tries to be friends with the women she oppressed makes it difficult to feel sorry for her though.

Based on the thumbnail for next week's episode it looks like we'll​ get to see handmaids funeral attire

jerry seinfel
Jun 25, 2007



Matt Zerella posted:

Just watching now. Seeing the commanders wife get shouted off stage loving owned.

E: especially on the heels of seeing Tomi Lauren get shouted down and getting a drink thrown on her in public.

That scene super didnt work for me. It felt like a lovely NYT op-ed complaining about college students being mean to the Intellectual Dark Web, with her being cool and collected and getting screamed at, before the show went back to her abusing her human slave.

succ
Nov 11, 2016



jerry seinfel posted:

That scene super didnt work for me. It felt like a lovely NYT op-ed complaining about college students being mean to the Intellectual Dark Web, with her being cool and collected and getting screamed at, before the show went back to her abusing her human slave.

i somewhat agree but it was intentional for the buildup around seeing if she could visit her daughter.

Ubiquitous_
Nov 20, 2013


The ending felt like it came from a totally different plotline.

Zteuer
Nov 8, 2009


After this episode was one of the few times I could have watched two episodes in a row. Normally it's very emotionally draining, but now I'm all gung'ho.

datajugend
Jan 15, 2010

Cat Army


i hope that waterford died, but i know its just gonna be nameless people that died

Owlbear Camus
Jan 3, 2013

It's a little bitty place.

...Okay, I'll just wipe it off, that's all. Just a little town.

Those poor, pious family men killed by a terrorist.

Kanine
Aug 5, 2014


tbh the scenes with serena getting yelled off stage and shot lmao really drip with the whole condescending liberal "the nazis have free speech so u have 2 respect them and let them have a platform" bullshit that gets minorities killed.

jerry seinfel
Jun 25, 2007



Kanine posted:

tbh the scenes with serena getting yelled off stage and shot lmao really drip with the whole condescending liberal "the nazis have free speech so u have 2 respect them and let them have a platform" bullshit that gets minorities killed.

Waterford murdering the assassin's wife made me think of the "beingmean to nazis just radicalizes them further" bullshit

JazzFlight
Apr 29, 2006

Oooooooooooh!



Kanine posted:

tbh the scenes with serena getting yelled off stage and shot lmao really drip with the whole condescending liberal "the nazis have free speech so u have 2 respect them and let them have a platform" bullshit that gets minorities killed.
While I believe the flashback is framed through their twisted perspective, I also don't think some woke liberal college girl would shout Nazi stinkyhole at her because of the misogynist connotation of that word.

Edit: Also, is this a retcon?:
Serena claimed birthrates fell 61% just in the last year (of whenever that speech was). I thought the premise of their world was that birthrates were falling since like the 60s and it was a slow crisis that evolved over decades. Was this just the premise of the book and not the show? When were birth rates officially falling in the TV timeline?

A big problem I had with the first few episodes of season one were how oblivious June seemed in her pre-Gilead flashbacks, when she apparently was born into a world of low birthrates.

JazzFlight fucked around with this message at May 24, 2018 around 21:59

Ardennes
May 12, 2002

It will always be about people.


JazzFlight posted:

While I believe the flashback is framed through their twisted perspective, I also don't think some woke liberal college girl would shout Nazi stinkyhole at her because of the misogynist connotation of that word.

Edit: Also, is this a retcon?:
Serena claimed birthrates fell 61% just in the last year (of whenever that speech was). I thought the premise of their world was that birthrates were falling since like the 60s and it was a slow crisis that evolved over decades. Was this just the premise of the book and not the show? When were birth rates officially falling in the TV timeline?

A big problem I had with the first few episodes of season one were how oblivious June seemed in her pre-Gilead flashbacks, when she apparently was born into a world of low birthrates.

I got the sense in the show, it was much more of a very sudden thing (similar to Children of Men). It is also why the growth of extreme fundamentalism is so shocking (June doesn't seem to really worry until Sons of Jacob pretty much were already in control).

There are other mysteries/questions:

What is the radioactive waste in the colonies from? Just normal waste or from a limited nuclear strike (it seems like they could be set somewhere in the Dakotas ie bunch of missile silos are up there)? How much of the US military was able to get away, and how much can the existing US government do?

Why does the US/Gilead seems relatively "blessed" with fertility when if anything they are making the situation worse with outdated techniques and mass purges/death?

How the hell is Gilead suppose last when if anything it seems it really doesn't have any sizable industries except some basic consumer goods and food? I assume the killed most of the people that kept the IT industry growing as well as any R&D. I mean the effective GDP of Gilead must be laughable looking at how the society is run.

Also China should be running the world pretty much at this point, there is little to stop them.

Big Dick Cheney
Mar 30, 2007



Birthrates have actually been falling since the 60's. The 60% drop is extreme, but I could see Gilead linking in to the trend we see in real life.

Monglo
Mar 19, 2015


It was interesting to see a situation where the liberal protester aggression actually made the situation much worse - it's not usually the narrative that gets much exposure.

precision
May 7, 2006

Gonna have me some good friends around
Gonna have me some good times in town


man you guys got a totally different message from the flashbacks than i did

the message i got from them is "serena joy was a nazi c-word" not "we should let her speak"

i mean this is a woman who is literally saying the "genetic destiny" of women is to stay at home and bear children

socialsecurity
Aug 30, 2003


Monglo posted:

It was interesting to see a situation where the liberal protester aggression actually made the situation much worse - it's not usually the narrative that gets much exposure.

Becuase it's made up bullshit do you think if they weren't protested the sons of Jacob would of magically gave up.

precision
May 7, 2006

Gonna have me some good friends around
Gonna have me some good times in town


reminder that Serena Joy backed a vision of a government in which women are not allowed to learn how to read

Tiggum
Oct 23, 2007


Ardennes posted:

There are other mysteries/questions:

The whole premise falls apart if you think about it even a little bit, and every flashback and elaboration just makes it worse. It would be a lot more believable if they kept the focus entirely on the present and within Gilead and from June's perspective so you weren't constantly reminded that the world was basically normal five years ago and that Gilead's apparent stability makes no sense at all.

Le Saboteur
Dec 5, 2007

pink wasn't even a thing why is t#RXT REVOLUTION~!
and i'm so fucking excited for #SCOOPS#SCOOPS#SCOOPS #SCOOPS#SCOOPS #SCOOPS#SCOOPS

he knows..


I think the Serena speech scenes were just a bit to hamfisted in their subtext but it happens.

Big Dick Cheney
Mar 30, 2007



The only thing I could think of was that the protests didn't work

precision
May 7, 2006

Gonna have me some good friends around
Gonna have me some good times in town


on hold with sex line posted:

The only thing I could think of was that the protests didn't work

The timing of the speech is important too. It looked to me as if the speech was meant to be after the Sons "bought the schools" or whatever was hinted at earlier, and had started gaining power. If that's the case, all those protestors should have had guns.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


Kanine posted:

tbh the scenes with serena getting yelled off stage and shot lmao really drip with the whole condescending liberal "the nazis have free speech so u have 2 respect them and let them have a platform" bullshit that gets minorities killed.
I actually disagree with this.

In Serena's mind, June is being a bitch to her because she pretended to be her friend but just wanted to get something out of her. In June's mind, Serena is literally her slave owner who holds her down when her husband rapes her, pimped her out to someone else, has physically assaulted her, threatened her one child, and is planning to kidnap her unborn child and raise her as her own. Also Serena is not only complicit but responsible for the murder, torture, and surprise sex of thousands of people.

It's a dynamic that plays out during the protests. She is asking for the subjugation of women and she gets called a stinkyhole. In her mind the person calling her a stinkyhole is unreasonable.

The episode also challenges the audience because yeah, the [spoilershooting[/spoiler] is designed to have you empathize with these assholes on a very base level but the explosion at the end is celebratory. Why do we only feel just in celebrating violence when the assholes actually follow through with their plans?

I think it's an episode about false equivalencies.

Le Saboteur
Dec 5, 2007

pink wasn't even a thing why is t#RXT REVOLUTION~!
and i'm so fucking excited for #SCOOPS#SCOOPS#SCOOPS #SCOOPS#SCOOPS #SCOOPS#SCOOPS

he knows..


Just watched the promo for the next episode and the actor who played the main antagonist from Far Cry 5 is playing the interrogator Commander.

veni veni veni
Jun 5, 2005

~~~~~~K.I.D.S.~~~~~~

CLUNK! CLUNK! CLUNK! CLUNK!



Le Saboteur posted:

Just watched the promo for the next episode and the actor who played the main antagonist from Far Cry 5 is playing the interrogator Commander.

I noticed him in the auditorium at the end of this episode. He was sitting like 10 feet away from the bomb. How the hell did he survive?

jerry seinfel
Jun 25, 2007



Timeless Appeal posted:

I actually disagree with this.

In Serena's mind, June is being a bitch to her because she pretended to be her friend but just wanted to get something out of her. In June's mind, Serena is literally her slave owner who holds her down when her husband rapes her, pimped her out to someone else, has physically assaulted her, threatened her one child, and is planning to kidnap her unborn child and raise her as her own. Also Serena is not only complicit but responsible for the murder, torture, and surprise sex of thousands of people.

It's a dynamic that plays out during the protests. She is asking for the subjugation of women and she gets called a stinkyhole. In her mind the person calling her a stinkyhole is unreasonable.

The episode also challenges the audience because yeah, the [spoilershooting[/spoiler] is designed to have you empathize with these assholes on a very base level but the explosion at the end is celebratory. Why do we only feel just in celebrating violence when the assholes actually follow through with their plans?

I think it's an episode about false equivalencies.

I feel like this is what the scene was going for but it just didn't stick the landing at all for me. The New York Times, Atlantic, and basically ever other national paper has constant op-eds about how actually being rude to fascists is the real fascism, and the scene has imagery about "Resist" and other contemporary politically loaded references. They clearly intended the scene to say something, and loaded it up with contemporary political messaging, but didn't give much concern to other baggage. I don't think it's intended to reinforce how hosed up or evil or misguided Serena is because she literally tried to murder June just an episode ago. Despite the shock ending, this one scene sticks out the most because of how muddled it was. If it was intended to be Serena's perception of things I'd be fine with that, but this show hasn't really done that for any other flashback, and I doubt that she knows that her husband brutally murdered the would-be assassin and his partner.

tl;dr im waiting for the bari weiss piece on how serena joy is the intellectual dark web and we need to stop silencing her in spite of serena having a talk show on msnbc

jerry seinfel
Jun 25, 2007



Also, are the colonies supposed to be a radioactive wasteland or an attempt by Gilead to restore like a superfund site?

veni veni veni
Jun 5, 2005

~~~~~~K.I.D.S.~~~~~~

CLUNK! CLUNK! CLUNK! CLUNK!



jerry seinfel posted:

I feel like this is what the scene was going for but it just didn't stick the landing at all for me. The New York Times, Atlantic, and basically ever other national paper has constant op-eds about how actually being rude to fascists is the real fascism, and the scene has imagery about "Resist" and other contemporary politically loaded references. They clearly intended the scene to say something, and loaded it up with contemporary political messaging, but didn't give much concern to other baggage. I don't think it's intended to reinforce how hosed up or evil or misguided Serena is because she literally tried to murder June just an episode ago. Despite the shock ending, this one scene sticks out the most because of how muddled it was. If it was intended to be Serena's perception of things I'd be fine with that, but this show hasn't really done that for any other flashback, and I doubt that she knows that her husband brutally murdered the would-be assassin and his partner.

tl;dr im waiting for the bari weiss piece on how serena joy is the intellectual dark web and we need to stop silencing her in spite of serena having a talk show on msnbc

It's basically accurate though. If you watch it and feel it's trying to make the left look bad maybe that's something to chew on.

precision
May 7, 2006

Gonna have me some good friends around
Gonna have me some good times in town


Wait, I was supposed to feel bad when Serena got shot?

jerry seinfel
Jun 25, 2007



veni veni veni posted:

It's basically accurate though. If you watch it and feel it's trying to make the left look bad maybe that's something to chew on.

No? I think the scene tries to make Serena look good and then whiplash bad to her being awful and the cognitive dissonance thing makes sense, which i quoted. The scene landed with me like some moron saying "so much for the tolerant left" or that reasonable hitler comic taken unironically

jerry seinfel fucked around with this message at May 25, 2018 around 04:15

veni veni veni
Jun 5, 2005

~~~~~~K.I.D.S.~~~~~~

CLUNK! CLUNK! CLUNK! CLUNK!



We didnít walk away with the same feelings on that scene then. I don't think it makes Serena look good at all. I guess it makes her look strong in some twisted way, which I think makes sense for the character. The audience is painfully aware of the hosed up things she has done. One scene where she has to face some adversity doesn't change that. I don't think the writers intended for it to either, or wanted the viewer to pity her.

veni veni veni fucked around with this message at May 25, 2018 around 04:40

blue squares
Sep 28, 2007



Soiled Meat

I read the college scene as a criticism of the people decrying college protesters, not the other way around. Because in this universe, the protesters are correct!!

In reality everyone gets mad at the protesters because they don't take the threat of fascist morons seriously. The show is about how those fascist morons are more dangerous than they seem, and that it isn't a free speech issue. The protesters are 100% vindicated by the show.

Raspberry Jam It In Me
Oct 29, 2011

You're all I think, this thing set troublin


Timeless Appeal posted:

I actually disagree with this.

In Serena's mind, June is being a bitch to her because she pretended to be her friend but just wanted to get something out of her. In June's mind, Serena is literally her slave owner who holds her down when her husband rapes her, pimped her out to someone else, has physically assaulted her, threatened her one child, and is planning to kidnap her unborn child and raise her as her own. Also Serena is not only complicit but responsible for the murder, torture, and surprise sex of thousands of people.

It's a dynamic that plays out during the protests. She is asking for the subjugation of women and she gets called a stinkyhole. In her mind the person calling her a stinkyhole is unreasonable.

That's interesting and I think it's what the writers were going for. Personally, I also got a slightly different vibe while watching: The pleasant interactions with "Offred" gave Serena a sense of normalcy and humanity. I think that she is deeply insecure about the society she helped build and "Offred" playing along with the Gilead theater was soothing to her. Serena wants affermation that she is not a horrible person and that this entire Gilead thing was a good choice. Then, June suddenly breaks character, calls her Serena and brings up her kidnapped child and all these illusions about this not being hell on Earth and Serena a monster are gone. June breaks the narrative that Serena is trying to create for herself by holding up a mirror to her face and that makes her angry.

jerry seinfel posted:

No? I think the scene tries to make Serena look good and then whiplash bad to her being awful and the cognitive dissonance thing makes sense, which i quoted. The scene landed with me like some moron saying "so much for the tolerant left" or that reasonable hitler comic taken unironically

Nothing about this episode made Serena look good to me. She is a loving monster. The gist of it was that pregnancy is the most important thing in the world to Serena and an evil Librul took that away for totally no reason, just for voicing her opinion and she is bitter about it. It's pretty simplistic and I wish they didn't go that route. Her being bitter takes away from the complexity of the character IMO.

tetrapyloctomy
Feb 18, 2003

Okay -- you talk WAY too fast.

blue squares posted:

I read the college scene as a criticism of the people decrying college protesters, not the other way around. Because in this universe, the protesters are correct!!
This was my read too. The protesters were spot-on, and the people yelling that Serena had the right to speak her mind are the equivalent of people screaming about liberals being the intolerant ones (because they don't tolerate intolerance).

JazzFlight
Apr 29, 2006

Oooooooooooh!



Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:

That's interesting and I think it's what the writers were going for. Personally, I also got a slightly different vibe while watching: The pleasant interactions with "Offred" gave Serena a sense of normalcy and humanity. I think that she is deeply insecure about the society she helped build and "Offred" playing along with the Gilead theater was soothing to her. Serena wants affermation that she is not a horrible person and that this entire Gilead thing was a good choice. Then, June suddenly breaks character, calls her Serena and brings up her kidnapped child and all these illusions about this not being hell on Earth and Serena a monster are gone. June breaks the narrative that Serena is trying to create for herself by holding up a mirror to her face and that makes her angry.
Precisely. I don't think the people in control in Gilead really want to be reminded of what their world really is. Heck, it's the same as calling a white person racist or privileged in our own modern society. They're like the worst words you could possibly use (by having that person come to grips with what they don't want to admit about their own reality).

Propaganda Machine
Jan 2, 2005

Truthiness!

Conversely, I think it's possible that the protesters and the shooter combined gave Serena and Fred the resolve, drive, and political capital to go literally nuclear with their plans for a country on a hill. If they'd been peacefully ignored perhaps they'd have faded into obscurity.

Monaghan
Dec 29, 2006



Propaganda Machine posted:

Conversely, I think it's possible that the protesters and the shooter combined gave Serena and Fred the resolve, drive, and political capital to go literally nuclear with their plans for a country on a hill. If they'd been peacefully ignored perhaps they'd have faded into obscurity.

Except the problem with that reading is that it's not just Serena and Fred driving this thing. Hell even the two, while part of the elite, aren't the top dogs in Gilead society. To blame the protesters for contributing doesn't match what the show has been telling us. There was a large cabal of these assholes.

A big part of the show is a condemnation of people with liberal values, but don't go out there and fight for them until it's way too late.

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Propaganda Machine
Jan 2, 2005

Truthiness!

I didn't read the book, but we definitely get the impression that they are in the elite of the elite. Also consider that the people truly in charge rarely if ever take official positions that reflect their true power. Ben Franklin and Rasputin, for example. Fred and Serena are both considered pioneers and architects of the regime.

Not even to mention that Serena losing her womb to a shooter would easily be a rallying cry for these people.

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