Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us $3,400 per month for bandwidth bills alone, and since we don't believe in shoving popup ads to our registered users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
«28 »
  • Post
  • Reply
PaybackJack
May 21, 2003

...as much revenge as any man could possibly take.


"Is it ok to shoot Serena?" is this show's version of "Is it ok to punch a Nazi?" In typical fashion they ramped it up to 11 and then made their position even more obvious by saying "Yes, and you should have shot Fred too." with the scenes where he kills the wife and later feels sexually assaults June.

I'm starting to approach this show is almost like liberal torture porn; it's like Hostel or Saw but instead of watching prolonged, graphic, murder; we're watching extremist graphic conservative ideology.

I actually liked this episode but really only for the promise that we might start seeing poo poo fall apart based on the ending.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Crow Jane
Oct 18, 2012

nothin' wrong with a lady drinkin' alone in her room

Personally, I'd describe it as misery porn more than torture porn. Misery is more all-encompassing

veni veni veni
Jun 5, 2005

~~~~~~K.I.D.S.~~~~~~

CLUNK! CLUNK! CLUNK! CLUNK!



tetrapyloctomy posted:

This was my read too. The protesters were spot-on, and the people yelling that Serena had the right to speak her mind are the equivalent of people screaming about liberals being the intolerant ones (because they don't tolerate intolerance).

I dunno. I don't think the scene set out to make Serena look good but I don't think it intended to vindicate the protestors either. I think if it was commentary on anything it's just the general obnoxious and chaotic nature of discourse right now.

I don't really think the protestors were spot on. I hope I'm not coming off as a secret right winger here I just don't think everyone screaming over each other is accomplishing anything good and the scene encompasses that pretty well.

Your Gay Uncle
Feb 16, 2012


veni veni veni posted:

I dunno. I don't think the scene set out to make Serena look good but I don't think it intended to vindicate the protestors either. I think if it was commentary on anything it's just the general obnoxious and chaotic nature of discourse right now.

I don't really think the protestors were spot on. I hope I'm not coming off as a secret right winger here I just don't think everyone screaming over each other is accomplishing anything good and the scene encompasses that pretty well.

Yeah, it's not like she was advocating for a theocratic surprise sex empire to take over the American Government, and then implemented her plan to install a theocratic surprise sex empire. If we can't have conversations with eachother will society ever heal?

Why couldn't these squealing sjw feminists just meet her halfway and give up just most of their rights?

Your Gay Uncle fucked around with this message at May 25, 2018 around 23:04

blue squares
Sep 28, 2007



Soiled Meat

veni veni veni posted:

I just don't think everyone screaming over each other is accomplishing anything good and the scene encompasses that pretty well.

You're right. They should have beaten Serena and Fred up.

Not joking

veni veni veni
Jun 5, 2005

~~~~~~K.I.D.S.~~~~~~

CLUNK! CLUNK! CLUNK! CLUNK!



Yeah, because squealing has worked so well thus far. It's not like people just find another outlet and use that poo poo as fuel for their own agenda.

blue squares
Sep 28, 2007



Soiled Meat

Richard Spencer stopped speaking at colleges because he kept getting his rear end kicked

veni veni veni
Jun 5, 2005

~~~~~~K.I.D.S.~~~~~~

CLUNK! CLUNK! CLUNK! CLUNK!



True. You have a point there.

Propaganda Machine
Jan 2, 2005

Truthiness!

blue squares posted:

You're right. They should have beaten Serena and Fred up.

Not joking

I unironically agree here. The only way to take people like that out is to actually take them out.

precision
May 7, 2006

Gonna have me some good friends around
Gonna have me some good times in town


Again, I think it's important to remember the previous scene where the dead gay teacher talked about the schools being "bought" and that there seemed to be indicating that this scene took place after that had happened, while the Sons were gaining actual power. Taken in that light, the protestors were entirely justified.

Matt Zerella
Oct 7, 2002

JEG VILLE KLEMME DEG


It's always ok to shoot Serena. Always.

Raspberry Jam It In Me
Oct 29, 2011

You're all I think, this thing set troublin


Matt Zerella posted:

It's always ok to shoot Serena. Always.

I wouldn't get my hopes up about that though. If you go by the Nuremberg trial rules Serena will probably get away with minor punishment. Fred will definitely swing from a good rope though, if he is still alive by then.

Canadian D-Day can't come soon enough because this show is making me depressed.

Kanine
Aug 5, 2014


Ardennes posted:

I got the sense in the show, it was much more of a very sudden thing (similar to Children of Men). It is also why the growth of extreme fundamentalism is so shocking (June doesn't seem to really worry until Sons of Jacob pretty much were already in control).

There are other mysteries/questions:

What is the radioactive waste in the colonies from? Just normal waste or from a limited nuclear strike (it seems like they could be set somewhere in the Dakotas ie bunch of missile silos are up there)? How much of the US military was able to get away, and how much can the existing US government do?

Why does the US/Gilead seems relatively "blessed" with fertility when if anything they are making the situation worse with outdated techniques and mass purges/death?

How the hell is Gilead suppose last when if anything it seems it really doesn't have any sizable industries except some basic consumer goods and food? I assume the killed most of the people that kept the IT industry growing as well as any R&D. I mean the effective GDP of Gilead must be laughable looking at how the society is run.

Also China should be running the world pretty much at this point, there is little to stop them.

id imagine as the us government retreated during the war against gilead they scuttled their icbms by detonating them in their silos all across the midwest.

Kanine
Aug 5, 2014


oh also this is the reality of who actually gets hurt when people like serena show up

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-black-activist

Kanine
Aug 5, 2014


oh god if only those horrible protesters had engaged serena in the marketplace of ideas instead of being ~the real fascists~

veni veni veni
Jun 5, 2005

~~~~~~K.I.D.S.~~~~~~

CLUNK! CLUNK! CLUNK! CLUNK!



The fact that most of you who seem to take issue with what I said just keep throwing obnoxious strawman bullshit my way and putting words into my mouth says a lot. I don't think nazis and lunatics need to be engaged in a marketplace of ideas, but I don't think that screaming over them works either. If anything it's mostly proved to add fuel to the fire, both irl and in the show. I'd rather let idiots make fools of themselves than let them turn into martyrs or "revolutionaries", when people stoop to their level and let them pretend like they are taking the high road.

No one cares about accomplishing anything anymore though. It's all about being right, social media and owning people. It's funny to me that even the slightest glimpse of that on the show sent people right into defense mode like the show had betrayed them or some poo poo.

veni veni veni fucked around with this message at May 27, 2018 around 08:10

Nichael
Mar 30, 2011

SO IT IS WRITTEN


veni veni veni posted:

I'd rather let idiots make fools of themselves
But this demonstrably doesn't happen. Within the show, Gilead was established by Serena and people like her because opposition wasn't fierce enough.

In real life, happened, again because "making a fool of themselves" doesn't happen.

Raspberry Jam It In Me
Oct 29, 2011

You're all I think, this thing set troublin


veni veni veni posted:

The fact that most of you who seem to take issue with what I said just keep throwing obnoxious strawman bullshit my way and putting words into my mouth says a lot. I don't think nazis and lunatics need to be engaged in a marketplace of ideas, but I don't think that screaming over them works either. If anything it's mostly proved to add fuel to the fire, both irl and in the show. I'd rather let idiots make fools of themselves than let them turn into martyrs or "revolutionaries", when people stoop to their level and let them pretend like they are taking the high road.

No one cares about accomplishing anything anymore though. It's all about being right, social media and owning people. It's funny to me that even the slightest glimpse of that on the show sent people right into defense mode like the show had betrayed them or some poo poo.


You are assuming that the majority of the voting population has not been turned into idiots and fools themselves, which is a pretty bold assumption considering Trump's election. People aren't laughing at Nazis anymore, they are going "hmmm, actually that makes a lot of sense when you thunk about it" Decades of right wing media mass indoctrination and neo liberal policies have turned people into gibbering idiots.

So, how many people do you think Serena would have reached with her garbage, if the speech hadn't been cancelled due to the protesters? How many more supporters would she have created? The show's world is literally dying as birthrates go towards zero and people are going insane out of fear and flocking to idiots and autocrats. Liberal/pluralistic society needs to fight back and defend itself in cases like that. It's one of the core lessons that Germany learned from the Nazi takeover.

Matt Zerella
Oct 7, 2002

JEG VILLE KLEMME DEG


Always be punching and scaring fascists. Of any type.

blue squares
Sep 28, 2007



Soiled Meat

vini vidi vici is living in a pre escalator world

veni veni veni
Jun 5, 2005

~~~~~~K.I.D.S.~~~~~~

CLUNK! CLUNK! CLUNK! CLUNK!



I don't think you guys are wrong, but I've always felt like it's easier to demonize the other side when people act like that. I look at discourse right now and it just seems counter productive from both sides, and that might be a contributing factor into where we are at today. Maybe we are past the point where it even matters anymore, and the best option is to just jeer and punch people I dunno.

Crow Jane
Oct 18, 2012

nothin' wrong with a lady drinkin' alone in her room

veni veni veni posted:

I don't think you guys are wrong, but I've always felt like it's easier to demonize the other side when people act like that. I look at discourse right now and it just seems counter productive from both sides, and that might be a contributing factor into where we are at today. Maybe we are past the point where it even matters anymore, and the best option is to just jeer and punch people I dunno.

It's pretty hard to have a reasonable debate with people who think you innately deserve less than they do because of your race/gender/sexual preference/religion/etc.

Ubiquitous_
Nov 20, 2013


veni veni veni posted:

I don't think you guys are wrong, but I've always felt like it's easier to demonize the other side when people act like that. I look at discourse right now and it just seems counter productive from both sides, and that might be a contributing factor into where we are at today. Maybe we are past the point where it even matters anymore, and the best option is to just jeer and punch people I dunno.

There's no bridging the gap with people who want to put gays back in the closet, women back in the kitchen, and minorities back in chains.

veni veni veni
Jun 5, 2005

~~~~~~K.I.D.S.~~~~~~

CLUNK! CLUNK! CLUNK! CLUNK!



Crow Jane posted:

It's pretty hard to have a reasonable debate with people who think you innately deserve less than they do because of your race/gender/sexual preference/religion/etc.

It's less about having a debate about it, and more like, if they just let her speak, who would she have actually reached in that audience of 95% people that hate her? On the flipside, how much easier does it become to turn her into a Martyr/victim/hero in the public eye?

blue squares
Sep 28, 2007



Soiled Meat

veni veni veni posted:

It's less about having a debate about it, and more like, if they just let her speak, who would she have actually reached in that audience of 95% people that hate her? On the flipside, how much easier does it become to turn her into a Martyr/victim/hero in the public eye?

the 5%. can you math

Crow Jane
Oct 18, 2012

nothin' wrong with a lady drinkin' alone in her room

veni veni veni posted:

It's less about having a debate about it, and more like, if they just let her speak, who would she have actually reached in that audience of 95% people that hate her? On the flipside, how much easier does it become to turn her into a Martyr/victim/hero in the public eye?

Letting her speak at all gives her, and those irl with similar abhorrent views, legitimacy that really isn't deserved. Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from getting mocked and shouted down for your disguising opinions.

veni veni veni
Jun 5, 2005

~~~~~~K.I.D.S.~~~~~~

CLUNK! CLUNK! CLUNK! CLUNK!



The 5% that already love her?

Wafflecopper
Nov 27, 2004

I am a mouth, and I must scream

The point of debating fascists isn't to sway their opinion, it's to sway the opinion of any fence sitters listening who might be impressionable or gullible enough to listen to them but aren't yet fully indoctrinated fascists themselves. Just screaming abuse/beating them up might leave others who feel marginalized more sympathetic to the fascists' cause.

socialsecurity
Aug 30, 2003


Wafflecopper posted:

The point of debating fascists isn't to sway their opinion, it's to sway the opinion of any fence sitters listening who might be impressionable or gullible enough to listen to them but aren't yet fully indoctrinated fascists themselves. Just screaming abuse/beating them up might leave others who feel marginalized more sympathetic to the fascists' cause.

How many people that are fence sitting on "should we turn women into baby making sex slaves" do you think can be changed with any amount of logic.

Alhazred
Feb 16, 2011





It's kinda besides the point since they didn't use logic to take over America. They used guns.

Big Dick Cheney
Mar 30, 2007



Given the ineffectiveness of the protests on the show, and with the amount of power that right wingers currently enjoy in the real world, it is entirely reasonable to have doubts.

Owlbear Camus
Jan 3, 2013

It's a little bitty place.

...Okay, I'll just wipe it off, that's all. Just a little town.

veni veni veni posted:

I don't think you guys are wrong, but I've always felt like it's easier to demonize the other side when people act like that. I look at discourse right now and it just seems counter productive from both sides, and that might be a contributing factor into where we are at today. Maybe we are past the point where it even matters anymore, and the best option is to just jeer and punch people I dunno.

They will demonize the other side no matter what, my dude. Might as well make them afraid.

Zane
Nov 14, 2007


the show draws some amount of energy from equating trumpism with fascism. but trump isn't a fascist. he's a bumbling imbecile. some of his supporters are potentially fascists. but the problem with simplistically depicting (or allegorizing) them as fascists is that this risks falling into the same reductive 'us' vs 'them' logic of fascism: those (by whatever criteria) who fundamentally belong to the nation and those who fundamentally belong outside of it.

a free liberal society starts from the premise that everyone belongs to the nation on the basis of contractual citizenship and that a framework of consensus and disagreements can be sustained by a more fundamental commitment to conversation. it may be that the liberal (essentially enlightenment) dream of reaching shared truths through conversation was a flawed premise however. because if a liberal society has to be internally protected through preponderant use of force, or if it splits into fundamentally irreconcilable factions, then the liberal project of self-government has essentially failed. the citizens have 'failed themselves.'

Zane fucked around with this message at May 27, 2018 around 20:19

AndrewP
Apr 21, 2010

Ball Hard Enough.


Okay I'm finally caught up and let me just say, gently caress Yeah Ofglens

blue squares
Sep 28, 2007



Soiled Meat

Zane posted:

the show draws some amount of energy from equating trumpism with fascism. but trump isn't a fascist. he's a bumbling imbecile. some of his supporters are potentially fascists. but the problem with simplistically depicting (or allegorizing) them as fascists is that this risks falling into the same reductive 'us' vs 'them' logic of fascism: those (by whatever criteria) who fundamentally belong to the nation and those who fundamentally belong outside of it.

a free liberal society starts from the premise that everyone belongs to the nation on the basis of contractual citizenship and that a framework of consensus and disagreements can be sustained by a more fundamental commitment to conversation. it may be that the liberal (essentially enlightenment) dream of reaching shared truths through conversation was a flawed premise however. because if a liberal society has to be internally protected through preponderant use of force, or if it splits into fundamentally irreconcilable factions, then the liberal project of self-government has essentially failed. the citizens have 'failed themselves.'

Nice av/post combo

Kanine
Aug 5, 2014


man seeing so many people in the year 2018 saying you should debate fascists makes me pretty terrified as a bisexual jewish anarchist.

Kanine
Aug 5, 2014


my ancestors that died in the holocaust are definitely rolling in their graves

blue squares
Sep 28, 2007



Soiled Meat

Kanine posted:

man seeing so many people in the year 2018 saying you should debate fascists makes me pretty terrified as a bisexual jewish anarchist.

Fascists also never argue in good faith. Nor do most conservatives. Simply by debating these fucks you've lost, because the only thing they want is you to be speaking on their terms and lending legitimacy to them/their ideas simply by deeming them worthy enough to bother disputing

esperterra
Mar 24, 2010

There are no such things as miracles.




Advocating for violence to solve problems makes me upset as a gay person so diff strokes for diff folks

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

socialsecurity
Aug 30, 2003


Yeah Trump's not a fascist if he were fascist he'd be trying to be some sort of "strong man" threatening to jail the free press while using his state media to spread lies, certainly nothing like that is going on.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply
«28 »