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TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

He will be injured, but in the World Series he will be raised from the DL. And the Indians were filled with grief.


Byers2142 posted:

Do you trust KB and CPig that much? Everything hinges on the investigations being accurate and their truthfulness in cards discarded/passed. The more you put this plan forward, the less I like it. Everything is based on giving kumba power.

CPig is admittedly a bit of a question mark as far as trust goes, but I aslo don't see reason not to trust them either. Getting wrapped up in paranoia is not going to help me play.

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King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!

Byers2142 posted:

Do you trust KB and CPig that much? Everything hinges on the investigations being accurate and their truthfulness in cards discarded/passed. The more you put this plan forward, the less I like it. Everything is based on giving kumba power.

FWIW, if this were mafia, I would absolutely not trust Pig. And since he's not really participating, I'm inclined to want to investigate him more if given the opportunity.

Having said that, our ordering isn't ideal. I like pmush's investigate the investigator plan, but it works best when there are three people involved for maximum clearage. If I investigated Pig, it doesn't get us as much if he just investigates me back.

Anyway, possibly all moot. So we can revisit this if I really don't draw any liberal policies.

Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


TMMadman posted:

I was a little wrong there because I forgot to account for the shuffle happening a round earlier than I thought at first.

I still think Kumba is the best choice for investigation just based on how things have played out so far plus the possibility of him being elected at an important time.

Ok, i think you're saying leave out the double up, then. Why kumba over Presidential candidates who come up before kumba? That more than anything is making me worry, you're setting up an argument for kumba to be in government as much as possible and to be elected Chancellor shortly after the third fascist policy drops, and your initial reasoning given (even after correcting the card counts) requires very specific circumstances to work out in our favor.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

He will be injured, but in the World Series he will be raised from the DL. And the Indians were filled with grief.


Also just to hash this out, hold off on the 5th vote for a little bit.

Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


King Burgundy posted:

Having said that, our ordering isn't ideal. I like pmush's investigate the investigator plan, but it works best when there are three people involved for maximum clearage. If I investigated Pig, it doesn't get us as much if he just investigates me back.

That's a fair point, I missed that timing issue. That would invalidate some of the security were hoping to gain from PMush's idea.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

He will be injured, but in the World Series he will be raised from the DL. And the Indians were filled with grief.


Byers2142 posted:

Ok, i think you're saying leave out the double up, then. Why kumba over Presidential candidates who come up before kumba? That more than anything is making me worry, you're setting up an argument for kumba to be in government as much as possible and to be elected Chancellor shortly after the third fascist policy drops, and your initial reasoning given (even after correcting the card counts) requires very specific circumstances to work out in our favor.

Part of it is because kumba wasn't given a choice by CapnAndy. I realize it was probably the best move, but I think I would have rather had Andy draw 2 fascist/1 liberal.

I also think that investigating kumba will provide some information on Andy.

I'll go ahead and admit that I'm a little concerned that a fascist Andy picked a fascist kumba and then got lucky by drawing 2 liberal cards and now they both get to play it off as being liberal.

I know I just said I don't want to be too paranoid, but that is the thing nibbling at me and given kumbas position in the presidental order, I just think it makes sense.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

He will be injured, but in the World Series he will be raised from the DL. And the Indians were filled with grief.


I will say that kumba is making me doubt that theory a bit since he seems fine with being investigated.

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!

TMMadman posted:

Part of it is because kumba wasn't given a choice by CapnAndy. I realize it was probably the best move

BTW, is this the best move in general? Like if somehow I get two liberal cards on this draw, should I offer them both to TMM?

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

He will be injured, but in the World Series he will be raised from the DL. And the Indians were filled with grief.


King Burgundy posted:

BTW, is this the best move in general? Like if somehow I get two liberal cards on this draw, should I offer them both to TMM?

I think it probably is always the best move simply because you are ensuring that a liberal policy gets passed.

CapnAndy
Feb 27, 2004

This is how Davos feels.
This is how Davos feels all the time.



TMMadman posted:

I'll go ahead and admit that I'm a little concerned that a fascist Andy picked a fascist kumba and then got lucky by drawing 2 liberal cards and now they both get to play it off as being liberal.
Are you nuts? That's a fascist dream play, we'd get to pass a fascist policy, handwring about "three fash policies nothing we could do sorry guys" and gently caress the discard count so that the team that actually does get three fashes looks suspicious. I take offense on my own hypothetical behalf.

Also I really don't see the logic in the first president to get an investigate targeting anyone other than the next guy in the succession when it happens. It gives us immediately actionable intelligence, and if the target's trustworthy he's good Chancellor bait going further.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

He will be injured, but in the World Series he will be raised from the DL. And the Indians were filled with grief.


I guess maybe discarding one possibly in this situation or when there is one fascist policy already enacted would be a good way to test the chancellor. I think it would be dangerous to use as a test after two fascist policies were enacted.

CapnAndy
Feb 27, 2004

This is how Davos feels.
This is how Davos feels all the time.



TMMadman posted:

I think it probably is always the best move simply because you are ensuring that a liberal policy gets passed.
Also because, as I keep saying, knowing that a liberal policy got discarded is important information and parliament should have independent confirmation of it.

Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


TMMadman posted:

Part of it is because kumba wasn't given a choice by CapnAndy. I realize it was probably the best move, but I think I would have rather had Andy draw 2 fascist/1 liberal.

I also think that investigating kumba will provide some information on Andy.

I'll go ahead and admit that I'm a little concerned that a fascist Andy picked a fascist kumba and then got lucky by drawing 2 liberal cards and now they both get to play it off as being liberal.

I know I just said I don't want to be too paranoid, but that is the thing nibbling at me and given kumbas position in the presidental order, I just think it makes sense.

I don't get how kumba gained any liberal credit from his claim, nor how an investigation into kumba gives any information on Andy. And I still don't understand the argument based on order; kumba is far enough back an investigation is not immediately useful and yet close enough I doubt you get a chance to do something like a double up.

Claiming two liberal policies, like I said before, is a null tell. It may as well have not happened, as nothing changes in his actions due to his role. So if he is the same as everyone who hasn't been in government yet, I think the investigation works best on either earlier candidates (not CPig, KB is right there) or someone who has been in government and had an actual claimed choice.

Instead, the plan you're proposing has a narrow window of opportunity to be a masterful advantage for us and several ways it could backfire and ultimately leave us in a worse position.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

He will be injured, but in the World Series he will be raised from the DL. And the Indians were filled with grief.


CapnAndy posted:

Are you nuts? That's a fascist dream play, we'd get to pass a fascist policy, handwring about "three fash policies nothing we could do sorry guys" and gently caress the discard count so that the team that actually does get three fashes looks suspicious. I take offense on my own hypothetical behalf.

Also I really don't see the logic in the first president to get an investigate targeting anyone other than the next guy in the succession when it happens. It gives us immediately actionable intelligence, and if the target's trustworthy he's good Chancellor bait going further.

Unless one of you is Hitler.

Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


CapnAndy posted:

Are you nuts? That's a fascist dream play, we'd get to pass a fascist policy, handwring about "three fash policies nothing we could do sorry guys" and gently caress the discard count so that the team that actually does get three fashes looks suspicious. I take offense on my own hypothetical behalf.

Also I really don't see the logic in the first president to get an investigate targeting anyone other than the next guy in the succession when it happens. It gives us immediately actionable intelligence, and if the target's trustworthy he's good Chancellor bait going further.

If you investigate next, it runs a real risk of PMush's plan being less effective. KB is right, you want three people involved. Not two.

Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


TMMadman posted:

Unless one of you is Hitler.

If that's the case, why claim two liberal policies passed and not 1 and 1? At least then you can be seen doing something that looks liberal, and Andy has claimed to have had and avoided an opportunity to do just that.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

He will be injured, but in the World Series he will be raised from the DL. And the Indians were filled with grief.


Or maybe I'm just paranoid and talking out of my rear end while bored.

I guess part of this is all because I'm new to the game, but it just seems like focusing on the person in line is strictly small picture thinking. I understand you want trustworthy people but if you don't have someone trustworthy in the future line then it seems like you run thr risk of enacting the top card.

If KB investigated CPig and then Cpig investigated KB, then we would be sitting at 2 fascist policies and we'd probably start denying governments at which point we'd have to elect kumba and whoever he picks or just take the top policy.

Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


TMMadman posted:

Or maybe I'm just paranoid and talking out of my rear end while bored.

I guess part of this is all because I'm new to the game, but it just seems like focusing on the person in line is strictly small picture thinking. I understand you want trustworthy people but if you don't have someone trustworthy in the future line then it seems like you run thr risk of enacting the top card.

If KB investigated CPig and then Cpig investigated KB, then we would be sitting at 2 fascist policies and we'd probably start denying governments at which point we'd have to elect kumba and whoever he picks or just take the top policy.

Why would we deny a Dick or Retro government in that case? Again, I don't get how kumba is the guaranteed lynchpin.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

He will be injured, but in the World Series he will be raised from the DL. And the Indians were filled with grief.


Byers2142 posted:

Why would we deny a Dick or Retro government in that case? Again, I don't get how kumba is the guaranteed lynchpin.

You literally said just a short time ago that governments would start getting denied once some fascist policies start showing up.

And now you're wondering why we would deny DB or RF a government after 2 fascist policies got enacted?

And besides, I'm just pointing out that if we did deny those two governments then we would have to either accept kumba or take the top policy.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

He will be injured, but in the World Series he will be raised from the DL. And the Indians were filled with grief.


Like I'm fine if we end up investigating somone else because I would just oppose letting kumba into government and argue for everyone else to do the same.

Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


TMMadman posted:

You literally said just a short time ago that governments would start getting denied once some fascist policies start showing up.

And now you're wondering why we would deny DB or RF a government after 2 fascist policies got enacted?

And besides, I'm just pointing out that if we did deny those two governments then we would have to either accept kumba or take the top policy.

My point was that even one denied government stops your plan, which required near-flawless circumstances. You just suggested skipping two governments with people who are as yet unknown qualities to again put kumba specifically at the fore. There's a difference.

Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


TMMadman posted:

Like I'm fine if we end up investigating somone else because I would just oppose letting kumba into government and argue for everyone else to do the same.

On what grounds? Your fixation on kumba makes no sense to me. Now you're advocating kumba not be in government ever again without an investigation. Why?

I'm sorry, the initial plan seemed bad, and none of the reasoning since feels genuine. TMM is stretching to make kumba important in future plans, and I don't like or trust it. I don't want him as Chancellor.

##vote no

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

He will be injured, but in the World Series he will be raised from the DL. And the Indians were filled with grief.


Byers2142 posted:

My point was that even one denied government stops your plan, which required near-flawless circumstances. You just suggested skipping two governments with people who are as yet unknown qualities to again put kumba specifically at the fore. There's a difference.

No I was pointing out what could happen in your scenario of investigating the next person and then having that person investigate the person who investigated them on the next turn.

It's just showing that kumba is very likely going to be right in the middle of things at a very dangerous time and I think it would be good to know his alignment before those things come to pass.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

He will be injured, but in the World Series he will be raised from the DL. And the Indians were filled with grief.


Byers2142 posted:

On what grounds? Your fixation on kumba makes no sense to me. Now you're advocating kumba not be in government ever again without an investigation. Why?

I'm sorry, the initial plan seemed bad, and none of the reasoning since feels genuine. TMM is stretching to make kumba important in future plans, and I don't like or trust it. I don't want him as Chancellor.

##vote no

On the grounds that I'm not really going to trust him without the investigation. That could change if he gets into government again without my vote, but until that happens I don't see a reason to explicitly trust him or CapnAndy for that matter.

What reason do you have to trust him so much right now?

Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


TMMadman posted:

On the grounds that I'm not really going to trust him without the investigation. That could change if he gets into government again without my vote, but until that happens I don't see a reason to explicitly trust him or CapnAndy for that matter.

What reason do you have to trust him so much right now?

I don't; like I said he is a null read to me, just like everyone who has yet to serve in government since he did nothing of note in his turn as Chancellor. You're making a fascist read barring an investigation, and with no reason for that read.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

He will be injured, but in the World Series he will be raised from the DL. And the Indians were filled with grief.


Byers2142 posted:

I don't; like I said he is a null read to me, just like everyone who has yet to serve in government since he did nothing of note in his turn as Chancellor. You're making a fascist read barring an investigation, and with no reason for that read.

And?

There are 4 fascists out there and I've gotta start somewhere, so why can't I think he might be one and want to freeze him out of government?

I'm just one vote and I've already stated that I would be willing to revise my opinion if he was to get into government again without my vote.

CapnAndy
Feb 27, 2004

This is how Davos feels.
This is how Davos feels all the time.



I'm deeply confused by whatever the hell TMM is advocating and beginning to think that he's doing it on purpose, to smokescreen everyone into going along with... whatever this is. I still do not understand what is wrong with the plan of "the first time a government is forced to pass a fascist law, the president investigates the next president in the cycle", and I do not understand what the plan is in its place.

I agree with Byers. Whatever the hell is going on right now, I don't like it.

##vote no

PMush Perfect
Sep 30, 2009

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New plan, can we make TM our first investigation?

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

He will be injured, but in the World Series he will be raised from the DL. And the Indians were filled with grief.


I just feel like people are focused on the short term but thinking long term feels more important to me.

I'm almost home and I'll see if i can't explain it better when I'm not on my phone.

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!

CapnAndy posted:

I'm deeply confused by whatever the hell TMM is advocating and beginning to think that he's doing it on purpose, to smokescreen everyone into going along with... whatever this is. I still do not understand what is wrong with the plan of "the first time a government is forced to pass a fascist law, the president investigates the next president in the cycle", and I do not understand what the plan is in its place.

I agree with Byers. Whatever the hell is going on right now, I don't like it.

##vote no

I think TMM's stuff makes sense if we aren't talking about Kumba specifically, but a group of people around him. I agree the focus on Kumba specifically is a bit odd.

Having said that, if you guys ruin my time at bat over this, I'm going to be disgruntled.

I wish these objections had come up earlier.

---

On the next in line stuff, I'm not sure what you don't get. Did you read Pmush's plan about having three people involved? If so, what don't you understand about it?

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!

Keep in mind, unless you mistrust me as well, blocking this election is kind of silly. I'll be able to announce the three cards I drew. And I would be the one choosing the investigation target if he passes a fascist policy. So even if it turns out TMM is a bad guy, the only potential bad thing that happens is if I pass him a liberal policy and he doesn't use it. But that's a positive at this point too, right? We out him as bad and still only have one fascist policy enacted. Would be great to find out more about him right now when he's chancellor than later when it is more dangerous and he would be president.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

He will be injured, but in the World Series he will be raised from the DL. And the Indians were filled with grief.


King Burgundy posted:

Keep in mind, unless you mistrust me as well, blocking this election is kind of silly. I'll be able to announce the three cards I drew. And I would be the one choosing the investigation target if he passes a fascist policy. So even if it turns out TMM is a bad guy, the only potential bad thing that happens is if I pass him a liberal policy and he doesn't use it. But that's a positive at this point too, right? We out him as bad and still only have one fascist policy enacted. Would be great to find out more about him right now when he's chancellor than later when it is more dangerous and he would be president.

This is my thinking as well. There really is no reason to deny this government unless they think we are both fascists.

And while I can see people thinking I'm a fascist, it's not as easy to think your one with me.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

He will be injured, but in the World Series he will be raised from the DL. And the Indians were filled with grief.


Ok, I'm home now, so let me see if I can't explain this a bit better.

Right now we've passed 2 liberal policies and have pulled 3 of the 6 liberal cards. I think this KB government should pass regardless of whether you think I'm a fascist or not. At the very least, you'll learn something about KB and I've probably stirred up enough poo poo that I'm not sure I'll get back into government anyway even if KB pulls/passes one of the liberal cards and I enact it.

Now the reason I still think kumba should be investigated first is because of the way the game seems to be playing out right now and the information we have. Right now, the Presidential order is KB, CPig, DB, RF, kumba. And let's assume that KB's government passes (as it should because of how early it is in the game) at which point he'll either pass me two fascist cards or at least 1 liberal card. If a liberal policy is enacted, then people can decide how they want to feel afterwards. If a fascist policy is enacted then he'll get an investigation that has to be done before the next President is elected.

Byers and CapnAndy seem to think the investigation should be automatically be the next person in line for government while I think it should be kumba because he is going to be in a very good position of power in the very near future basically regardless of how things shake out in front of him. Now I would almost certainly be thinking differently if the situation was different, but that's now how it is right now.

Now if KB investigates CPig and says he's a liberal, then we obviously elect his government and see what happens since if KB got 3 fascist cards then CPig has a decent chance of drawing a liberal card and passing it on. However, if CPigs government ends up passing a fascist policy, then CPig turns around and investigates KB to be sure that KB was telling the truth and then we are supposed to have 2 people who we know we can trust to be Chancellors in the future. But in my opinion that still leaves the problem that we don't have anyone in the near future that we can safely elect. See the problem for me is that if we end up in that position, then we are looking at electing DB with 2 fascist policies on the board already. Now that's not a completely terrible position since the reshuffle should also come during DBs turn, so I think he would have a higher chance of being able to pass on a liberal policy.

So what are we supposed to do if there are two fascist policies enacted and we are looking at the untested DB and RF as our next two governments? Sure, they should have a better chance to pass a liberal policy, but if both of them get elected and one of them passes a fascist policy then we are looking at untested/uninvestigated kumba possibly getting elected with 3 fascist policies on the board. And as I said earlier, if we decide instead to pass on both DB/RF then we have to either elect an unproved kumba or take the top policy. If we pass one of DB/RF then we could skip kumba but depending on the timing we'd be looking at AA or me as the government you'd have to take to avoid the top policy card.

So can you guys see why kumba is important here? Or at least why I personally think he is important in this particular game?

Even looking at it a different way, if KBs government enacts a liberal policy, then of course we'd have no reason to object to a CPig government and it would likely end up passing a fascist policy (whether forced or not would be the question) and he would end up getting the first investigation. Now he could investigate DB because with just 1 fascist policy there is no real reason not to elect DB and then DB could investigate CPig if he ends up with the 2nd investigation. So if that happens, then we are looking at an untested RF with 2 fascist policies on the board which would require some discussion before electing because if he does get elected and ended up passing fascist, then once again we are looking at electing kumba president with 3 fascist policies on the board and AA and me next in line, so I would basically be insisting that you pass on kumba/AA to elect me since the only person I absolutely trust is myself. Or again, you'd be looking at possibly skipping RF/kumba and electing AA.

So once again, you can see that kumba is right in the middle of things at a time when it'd be really nice to know his alignment so that we can make an informed choice.

So I'm just not getting the resistance to thinking that kumba is a very good choice for the investigation.

Like even going through the rules linked in the first post, the Cucu strategy is to pick the person two people in front of the current President, so it would be KB investigating DB and then DB picking KB as his chancellor. And if you want to add in the pre-cucu strategy then it would be to have CPig picking DB as his chancellor. So it feels like the people who are trying to get CPig as the investigation are trying to slip something past everyone.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

He will be injured, but in the World Series he will be raised from the DL. And the Indians were filled with grief.


Also, I know this is the first time I've played this game, but it just seems to me like investigating the next President and then investigating the first investigation isn't always optimal. Like maybe it's optimal if the previous rounds have been optimal, but since they weren't done 'by the numbers' then it seems like trying to force the game into trying to be optimal isn't the best idea.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

He will be injured, but in the World Series he will be raised from the DL. And the Indians were filled with grief.


It sure would be nice if AA, DB, or RF decided to join us. Cpig too partially, but at least he voted today.

kumba
Nov 8, 2003


enjoy the ride


Lipstick Apathy


i was confused what TMM was doing before this post, but i think this all makes sense. ##vote yes

Anomalous Amalgam
Feb 13, 2015

In time, you will know the tragic extent of my failings...


Doctor Rope

TMMadman posted:

It sure would be nice if AA, DB, or RF decided to join us. Cpig too partially, but at least he voted today.

I'll get some input in during lunch. Sorry fellow politicians.

CapitalistPig
Nov 3, 2005

You turn the corner and see a greenskinned fuckmidget.
Roll for initiative.

TMMadman posted:

Cpig too partially, but at least he voted today.

What? I said I agreed with you.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

He will be injured, but in the World Series he will be raised from the DL. And the Indians were filled with grief.


CapitalistPig posted:

What? I said I agreed with you.

I know but it'd be nice to hear some other thoughts.

But I guess this game is a little weird in that it seems like conversation is a little limited until fascist policies start getting enacted.

I guess maybe we could see what people think about Byers and CapnAndy voting no without seeming to consider KBs alignment. Yes, the Chancellor picks the policy, but the President gets power of any fascist policy.

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PMush Perfect
Sep 30, 2009

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|PMush used Shitpost! |
|It's super effective!|
----------------------


How long do we have left to hammer a yes/no? We're getting pretty close to deadline.

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