Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Scorchy
Jul 15, 2006

Smug Statement: Elementary, my dear meatbag.


Azuth0667 posted:

PoE3 when?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YS8n-pZQWWc

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Vermain
Sep 5, 2006





Azuth0667 posted:

PoE3 when?

I'd reckon it's probably gonna be some time before we see another genuine isometric-style PoE, if at all. I'd imagine they'll take another look at it if Avowed generates enough interest in the IP to warrant it, but a theoretical PoE3 will likely end up looking a fair bit different than PoE1/2 in terms of gameplay, even if so.

ilitarist
Apr 26, 2016

illiterate and militarist


GrumpyGoesWest posted:

But doesn't that have to do with the games being developed with console in mind from the very beginning?

DOS2 wasn't developed for console, IIRC they only added controller support after release. And Witcher 3 was definitely not aimed at hardware like that during the development.

I suspect it's because PoE is much more memory-intensive with its high quality 2D assets. One of the reasons people switched to 3D is better scalability. If you want to run a 3D game on low-end system you turn off features, use lower quality textures and models - and you probably already have those for rendering at a distance. With 2D, what would you do, remove some effects, divide sprites resolution by 2, 4? They probably don't have low-poly models for 3D characters.

Meatgrinder
Jul 11, 2003

Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est


This might be a bit niche but has anyone ever pressured Enoi for a material reward before agreeing to restore food to the Gullet? He ends up saying he will divulge the location of a sword if you help, and I followed the Principi path to restore access to food, and then Enoi never referred to the sword again. I am pretty sure it's a Modwyr tie-in, but the wiki doesn't list that conversation branch and google only lists 1 guy asking "What is this flaming sword Enoi is talking about he said it got thrown down the Hole but I cannot find it" on the Steam forums.

Has anyone seen these conversation options before and managed to confirm what sword he is on about?

Furism
Feb 21, 2006

Live long and headbang


Azuth0667 posted:

PoE3 when?

I don't think it would be very difficult to pitch this to Microsoft. Financing this would not even make a dent in their bottom line, and it would be one more good RPG they could add to their GamePass thing.

I suspect, and I have no basis for this, that there's maybe a bit of PoE fatigue at Obsidian and the team might need to take a break, produce a couple more games, before going back to this game.

And honestly... I mean I love PoE but I love Obsidian RPGs more and if they can squeeze a cRPG-like before PoE3 I'm fine with it. Just not one based on cool-downs, if possible.

chaosapiant
Oct 10, 2012

White Line Fever



With Wasteland 3 being relatively a hit and BG3 on the horizon, Id hope Obsidian are still in good shape to pitch a 3rd sequel as an isometric game and close it out as a trilogy, then move future games over to the Avowed model.

Pilchenstein
May 17, 2012

So your plan is for half of us to die?


Hot Rope Guy

chaosapiant posted:

then move future games over to the Avowed model.
Christ I hope not.

GrumpyGoesWest
Apr 9, 2015



I'm interested to see what avowed will be like. If the writers do a really good job with fleshing out Eora even more then I'll be happy.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Avowed is in a weird place because it's got very "trying to be a huge AAA Skyrimlike" energy, but it's in the same setting as two relatively niche games which ended with the whole world undergoing a pretty radical change. So if it's set after them, it presumably is a sequel, but one that can't assume its audience played the games it's a sequel to. If it's set before them then the story either can't be too choice-focused or it has to be set a long way before them a la Knights Of The Old Republic, so that you can have big effects on the story but they get smoothed over by the passage of time. Either possibility could make for an interesting game, though as someone who played both Pillars games something set after the breaking of the Wheel sounds the most interesting

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

Hey Sid Do you believe in UFOs, astral projections, mental telepathy, ESP, clairvoyance, spirit photography, telekinetic movement, full trance mediums, the Loch Ness monster, and the theory of Atlantis?

Fun Shoe

2house2fly posted:

Avowed is in a weird place because it's got very "trying to be a huge AAA Skyrimlike" energy, but it's in the same setting as two relatively niche games which ended with the whole world undergoing a pretty radical change. So if it's set after them, it presumably is a sequel, but one that can't assume its audience played the games it's a sequel to. If it's set before them then the story either can't be too choice-focused or it has to be set a long way before them a la Knights Of The Old Republic, so that you can have big effects on the story but they get smoothed over by the passage of time. Either possibility could make for an interesting game, though as someone who played both Pillars games something set after the breaking of the Wheel sounds the most interesting

Given Woedica is supposed to feature prominently a lot of people suspect it will be set a while before Pillars of Eternity.

Pilchenstein
May 17, 2012

So your plan is for half of us to die?


Hot Rope Guy

GrumpyGoesWest posted:

I'm interested to see what avowed will be like.
I'm looking forward to it, I'm just objecting to the idea that "all future games" should be first person.

wiegieman
Apr 22, 2010

Royalty is a continuous cutting motion




Ginette Reno posted:

Given Woedica is supposed to feature prominently a lot of people suspect it will be set a while before Pillars of Eternity.

I don't know, Aedyr isn't really that well developed. I think there's plenty to do there either forwards or backwards in history.

boo boo bear
Oct 1, 2009


I think I'd have been more receptive if they had mashed poe and grounded together. building a village in the living lands sounds fun, but a forced first person/one character rpg in 2021 just sounds and feels dated.

then again, first person games really aren't my vibe anymore cuz I am dated and need stuff like peripheral vision and spatial awareness now. they make me feel claustrophobic and kinda sick.

Doctor Nutt
Apr 12, 2007

"Even now, Elisabeth is putting her miraculous new body through its paces." -Clovis Bray




A skyrim like set in Eora is loving catnip for me, so I'm glad Avowed is on the way.

Dick Burglar
Mar 6, 2006
Check out my hot takes because I'm a straight white male

Pilchenstein posted:

I'm looking forward to it, I'm just objecting to the idea that "all future games" should be first person.

I quite like first person games, including RPGs. I love old school first person dungeon crawler RPGs, which admittedly played very differently to Skyrim. I also love 2000s-era EverQuest and feel it's way more ~immersive~ than later MMORPGs in no small part because of its more-or-less reliance on first person in its early years. So I'd say I'm less inherently opposed to the idea of Avowed and more games being made in first person, but yeah even I recognize "everything has to be a first person shooter sworder(?)" is not great for games as a whole.

Dick Burglar fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Feb 16, 2021

steinrokkan
Apr 2, 2011



Soiled Meat

GrumpyGoesWest posted:

I'm interested to see what avowed will be like. If the writers do a really good job with fleshing out Eora even more then I'll be happy.

Oblivion with guns Outer Worlds with swords

ilitarist
Apr 26, 2016

illiterate and militarist


GrumpyGoesWest posted:

I'm interested to see what avowed will be like. If the writers do a really good job with fleshing out Eora even more then I'll be happy.

For now, there's little reason to believe it'd be different from Outer Worlds. As in Bethesda game with serial numbers sawed-off and 1/10 of a budget. I liked very few things about Outer Worlds and I feel like Obsidian didn't play to their strength and even somehow botched writing. It also cemented my view that there's precisely one person in Obsidian who cares about gameplay balance at all, because both Tyranny and Outer Worlds had inverted difficulty curves and plenty of useless mechanics.

Fair Bear Maiden
Jun 17, 2013


I'm sure all the people that worked on Pillars are happy to see that every single thing about those games is attributed to Rope Kid, lmao.

Anyway, I don't know what to expect from Avowed, but clearly it's a more ambitious project than The Outer Worlds and has different directors, assuming that it's just gonna be exactly the same is really weird. But I also thought The Outer Worlds was perfectly competent, to be honest.

steinrokkan
Apr 2, 2011



Soiled Meat

Competent as in it didn't make my computer explode, or competent as in fun?

ilitarist
Apr 26, 2016

illiterate and militarist


Fair Bear Maiden posted:

I'm sure all the people that worked on Pillars are happy to see that every single thing about those games is attributed to Rope Kid, lmao.

Yeah, it's not fair cause, say, FNV had huge problem with inverted difficulty too. It's just I'm very disappointed when I see great ideas destroyed by lack of playtesting and difficulty adjustment. Tyranny has a lot of great ideas and interesting mechanics. Too bad that past Act 1 every single encounter can be cleared on max difficulty using simple attack and heal so that I never care about artifacts, companion abilities, alchemy, spell crafting, reputation abilities, and other mechanics I might have missed. Same for Outer Worlds. PoE2 turn based mode looks like a stroke of genius but then you discover that every single fight is 3 turns of winning the fight and then 12 turns of chipping the health of the remaining harmless tank. It's probably just me, but such gameplay imbalances destroy the game (or turn-based mode) for me. I could do with bad writing, bad graphics, sound design, some repetitiveness, waiting for loading and other issues. It's like when I watch a movie I can forgive if it's black and white, or is silent, or has dumb jokes, or whatever. But those difficulty issues like watching a movie upside down or something, all the work of hundreds of people who worked on it are wasted cause now it's not a game, it's an annoying clicker I'm continuing to play to see credits and get some closure.

Mr. Prokosch
Feb 14, 2012

Behold My Magnificence!


I feel like Deadfire had inverted difficulty too. The hardest fight for me was the Drake and boars to rescue Aloth.

ilitarist
Apr 26, 2016

illiterate and militarist


Mr. Prokosch posted:

I feel like Deadfire had inverted difficulty too. The hardest fight for me was the Drake and boars to rescue Aloth.

This didn't feel that wrong to me because at that point you don't have a full party and it's an optional fight. If you get 2 hirelings it's not hard. Then the game opens up and you're free to take on harder enemies. And in the end, you have some dragons, mega-bosses, and DLC enemies that are hard. A lot of it is optional content too, yes, but in Tyranny and Outer Worlds you don't have even that.

Fair Bear Maiden
Jun 17, 2013


steinrokkan posted:

Competent as in it didn't make my computer explode, or competent as in fun?

Competent as it's probably better than whatever game you're defending in some other thread, I dunno, dude.

And inverted difficulty is absolutely a thing in both Pillars games, to be honest.

Chairchucker
Nov 14, 2006

The man was stunningly well dressed. He had a smart looking jacket, and a really neat looking cape, the lining of which was shimmering and sparkling in more than Oriental splendour, which is a great deal of splendour indeed, just ask Kipling.

Inverted difficulty is good and correct. I spend all that time scrounging up loot and sweeping up all the XP, you better believe I wanna trounce my enemies into the dirt.

Also, the main reason to believe Avowed will be different from The Outer Worlds is that The Outer Worlds was published by Private Division and had, comparatively, a much smaller budget than what I personally am expecting a game published by Microsoft to have.

ilitarist
Apr 26, 2016

illiterate and militarist


Chairchucker posted:

Inverted difficulty is good and correct. I spend all that time scrounging up loot and sweeping up all the XP, you better believe I wanna trounce my enemies into the dirt.

I'd maybe agree if this hard time was 80% of the game and then you become king of the world. In Tyranny and Outer Worlds, you become an unbeatable monster maybe 20 or 25% into the game.

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011


Mr. Prokosch posted:

I feel like Deadfire had inverted difficulty too. The hardest fight for me was the Drake and boars to rescue Aloth.

Some of the DLC stuff was properly hard for me, along with the obvious difficulty of the optional megabosses. Doable, but hard. The Drake I got by just fine, even without recruiting a druid, but the Messenger and the ending boss of Forgotten Sanctum required multiple attempts for me.

Hell, the ending boss of FS took several tries for me even when I tried to do the Barring Deaths Door, Salvation of Time, and Brilliant combo, because I'd get stunned out of it before it got going. Granted I was trying to use both Aloth and Fassina in the party which I normally don't use, but still.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.


Inverted difficulty is pretty common - I wouldn't say inescapable, but the general structure lends itself to them - in RPGs that focus on vertical progression. The mathematical floor for any stat starts at a baseline and delta between it and a potential max widens as the game progresses.

For some players this is "the fun" of RPGs. Breaking the math over their knee is the goal.

BG2 emphasized hard counters over vertical progression because AD&D 2nd Ed's math falls off a cliff after the low teen levels.

Azuth0667
Sep 20, 2011

By the word of Zoroaster, no business decision is poor when it involves Ahura Mazda.



Optimistically hyped.


I'd like to see a game like Outer Wilds (not Outer Worlds) set in Eora. Maybe we can go find out what Wael doesn't want us to know about the stars.

Rookersh
Aug 19, 2010


tbh pressuring people to make stuff doesn't tend to lead to good products.

If the PoE team wants to keep making PoE I think they can get a budget for it now thanks to Microsoft.

There are obviously people at Obsidian with a torch for the world, Avowed is a sign of that, so it's not like Eora is going to die off.

If they want to make new things, that's cool to. If those things are CRPGs or TBRPGs that's neat. I like those a lot.

It's not like the genre is dead anymore. Obsidian can take a few years off to make other neat poo poo. Grounded is a lot of fun for example. Creative people make their best work when they are allowed to be creative, not forced to make the same genre over and over again because it's what the fans want/expect.

Meatgrinder
Jul 11, 2003

Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est


X_Toad posted:

Has anyone here met a bug in which Modwyr is asking to talk but there is not "talk" button in the weapon's description ? Is there a way to use the console or something to trigger the conversation ?

This is from a while back but I just had a similar thing happen: I fulfilled a soulbound requirement for Modwyr during ship combat, prompting the dialogue screen telling me to talk to Modwyr without the option to do so. Inspecting her from the character screen also shows no option to talk.

However, this was at sea. As soon as I disembarked, inspecting Modwyr revealed the option to talk to her.

bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017
Probation
Can't post for 6 hours!


Nap Ghost

rope kid posted:

Inverted difficulty is pretty common - I wouldn't say inescapable, but the general structure lends itself to them - in RPGs that focus on vertical progression. The mathematical floor for any stat starts at a baseline and delta between it and a potential max widens as the game progresses.

For some players this is "the fun" of RPGs. Breaking the math over their knee is the goal.

BG2 emphasized hard counters over vertical progression because AD&D 2nd Ed's math falls off a cliff after the low teen levels.

there is more to math than addition

Dick Burglar
Mar 6, 2006
Check out my hot takes because I'm a straight white male

bob dobbs is dead posted:

there is more to math than addition

I'm sure rope kid is aware of that, given that AD&D 2E rules require more than addition.

bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017
Probation
Can't post for 6 hours!


Nap Ghost

it really doesnt require anything more than polynomial linear operations, tho

Dick Burglar
Mar 6, 2006
Check out my hot takes because I'm a straight white male

oh well in that case, please carry on

Edit: clearly all that is needed to balance RPGs with complex mechanics is advanced mathematics. just throw some fuckin imaginary numbers and trigonometry at it and BAM, perfect balance

bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017
Probation
Can't post for 6 hours!


Nap Ghost

a sigmoidal function, usually, but unironically yes, pretty much

can't do it by hand, but who cares

"drat all this poo poo is fuckin up because we cant model diminishing returns"

could also use a logarithm

e: ... square roots

just gotta have any ol sublinearity, your choicecfor the slope

bob dobbs is dead fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Feb 16, 2021

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.


Yes, you can model diminishing returns, usually at the cost of less transparency to the user. I did not say or even suggest that it was impossible; there are plenty of games that do it. MMOs do it all the time, Skyrim does it with its armor system.

As I wrote, for some players, breaking the math is what they enjoy doing. The Pillars/Deadfire systems aren't designed the way they are because my brain don't do math so good, but because they were designed with goals of clarity and a healthy measure of min-maxing -- min-maxing that is sub-AD&D/3E levels but still allows for a broad range of values at any given level.

bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017
Probation
Can't post for 6 hours!


Nap Ghost

it is indeed the player who cant math so good

which i'll believe. but i get annoyed at dealing with the terrible linearity of adnd and 3ed like systems in games from it. 3ed and 3.5ed are basically only playable itself from levels 5-13ish

every edition of dnd has had experience curves try to go O(n^2), but they just do it with a table and with inconsistent adjustments to keep stuff round numbers, so its not like peeps arbitrarily cannot take a single square

bob dobbs is dead fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Feb 16, 2021

Meatgrinder
Jul 11, 2003

Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DXwsuTpnfVM

Dick Burglar
Mar 6, 2006
Check out my hot takes because I'm a straight white male

I've always wanted to play a Bleak Walker for story purposes but honestly the paladin kit doesn't terribly interest me in either game. I've got a Bleak Walker run that stalled out on PoE1 that I need to pick back up, but I'd rather play something else in Deadfire. Would it be possible to mod the Bleak Walker tag (for conversation triggers) onto another class in Deadfire?

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

v1ld
Apr 16, 2012


rope kid posted:

still allows for a broad range of values at any given level.

How do you model this spread as a designer of new systems?

Obviously folks are going to find uncharted corners of the system, but do you chart out most of the common areas that players will find themselves in? Or add cool uniques for players to "exploit" while still keeping it balanced, like eg Bittercut. Seems like the latter is important too, to give folks interesting build targets.

Seems complex - always wondered how system designers go about modelling this if the game is one where players expect some kind of balanced challenge.


It's even more interesting in action games which have to model player skill. For eg., Monster Hunter, where all weapons at a given level have the exact same "true attack" value under the hood but where each attack has it's own "motion value" to compensate for the difficulty of pulling off the attack, essentially. And a bunch more modifiers on top.

But after all that, it's kinda hard to say if weapons are balanced. One metric could be to look at speed runner finishing times for a given weapon. There's usually a reasonably large spread across weapons for that metric. But is that spread reflective of the experience for the average player? Hard to say given just how much skill is play at that level.

E: Mentioning Monster Hunter because there're the TA wiki rules that lay down a baseline of what's considered acceptable to use for runs listed there, so there's a more directly comparable baseline than in most games.

PoE 2's plaque of honor is kind of an equivalent I guess, filtering out by which builds can pull it off. But that's in the same specialized, non-average experience as an MH speedrun.

E2: Sorry for the meandering post. Just that game balance seems hard, and all the harder in games that offer different classes/traits/perks/what have you. The task of balancing that up front seems ... difficult. Doing it by observing what the player base comes up with seems more tractable - and Obsidian's years of support patching up games like PoE/2 dovetails well with that approach.

v1ld fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Feb 16, 2021

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply