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Fair Bear Maiden posted:or even lamenting that Obsidian didn't use a tried and true PnP ruleset.  It's so annoying to get started in D&D games when you have to puzzle out or look up what options are worthless trap options when building a character.
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Aug 9, 2022 22:45
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Fair Bear Maiden posted:Playing Kingmaker and I'm enjoying it, but man, I really don't see in what ways that is more enjoyable than Pillars. Like, don't get me wrong, it's an impressive game! But also, goddamn, the writing is worse, the art is worse, the UI is slow as molasses because they need to do power point transitions between every screen, there's no fast mode, rest is very slow, the world map is the slowest and clunkiest I've ever used in a videogame of this type and also, it's, uh, based on Pathfinder 1st ed. The one thing that Kingmaker does better than both Pillars games is its turn-based mode (absent in PoE1), which is very robust given that its ruleset was built for it.
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Aug 10, 2022 01:44
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Fair Bear Maiden posted:Playing Kingmaker and I'm enjoying it, but man, I really don't see in what ways that is more enjoyable than Pillars. Like, don't get me wrong, it's an impressive game! But also, goddamn, the writing is worse, the art is worse, the UI is slow as molasses because they need to do power point transitions between every screen, there's no fast mode, rest is very slow, the world map is the slowest and clunkiest I've ever used in a videogame of this type and also, it's, uh, based on Pathfinder 1st ed. All the speed issues can easily be fixed in Bag of Tricks, which is borderline essential to enjoy the game unless you are a hardcore masochist for accurate pnp rules. Most common fixes are to increase movement out of combat, overworld travel speed, disable ration requirement, disable carrying weight. The game is weird in that some things are strict pnp implementation and suck for playing a computer game, but then they just changed some rules for whatever reason for their game and it also is dumb. Some perception checks get up into the high 30s by chapter 4, and keep climbing. They built their skills mechanic check around the assumption you'll focus 100% on main skills including taking the skill improvement feats. One of the biggest things for it is to just make a wand of Cure Light Wounds and use that, rather then having to constantly move single scrolls at a time into your inventory belt. It's weird because everyone who plays pathfinder basically lives and dies by the amount of CLW wands they have and it's the cheapest most efficient method of healing in the entire game. Kingmaker has a single wand, maybe two across the entire 100 hours. pentyne fucked around with this message at 02:51 on Aug 10, 2022 |
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Aug 10, 2022 02:44
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wologar posted:The one thing that Kingmaker does better than both Pillars games is its turn-based mode (absent in PoE1), which is very robust given that its ruleset was built for it. That I agree with, the turn-based combat implementation is very robust and outside of some occasional targeting/movement jank works very well. pentyne posted:All the speed issues can easily be fixed in Bag of Tricks, which is borderline essential to enjoy the game unless you are a hardcore masochist for accurate pnp rules. Most common fixes are to increase movement out of combat, overworld travel speed, disable ration requirement, disable carrying weight. I'm gonna look into Bag of Tricks but like, I don't think a mod should be needed for the game not to feel as slow as molasses, lol.
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Aug 10, 2022 06:40
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Fair Bear Maiden posted:Playing Kingmaker and I'm enjoying it, but man, I really don't see in what ways that is more enjoyable than Pillars. Can't underestimate how popular d20 is. Trial and error character development is also attractive in a way PoE doesn't try to be: who cares about interesting choices when you can make cool right choices and break the game? I also think that happy fairytale atmosphere is to blame, it's the most straightforward fantasy game you can play since BG1, even BG2 and NWN2 tried to be more subversive and nuanced. This is all just theories, I myself can't understand how people praise this game while even the fans recommend playing with cheats to get through all the horrible stuff in it.
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Aug 10, 2022 07:39
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Ainsley McTree posted:Kingmaker's not great imo, I don't know if there's many people saying it's better than PoE (either of them). I'm a sucker for any kind of game that involves a kingdom management sidegame, which KM extremely does, and even I couldn't finish it. PoE has better game play and better writing yea. Kingmaker does get the whole heroic power fantasy thing though, whereas PoE is intentionally more of a... subversion of it?
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Aug 10, 2022 08:01
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Kingmaker and Wrath are much closer to what people actually want out of a fantasy CRPG. A high fantasy zero-to-hero romp. I loved Pillars but I would still say I probably enjoyed Kingmaker and Wrath more on the balance.
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Aug 10, 2022 12:35
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I couldn't get past the character creation in Pathfinder. Not because I kept wanting to change my character like in the Pillars games, but because I really couldn't make much sense of the various specialty classes.
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Aug 10, 2022 12:38
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Captain Oblivious posted:Kingmaker and Wrath are much closer to what people actually want out of a fantasy CRPG. A high fantasy zero-to-hero romp. This is probably the right explanation of popularity of those games. PoE2 doesn't just deny you a power fantasy in terms of story, it's there in the gameplay too. You don't get to find +3 weapon that is an obvious upgrade over what you have now, you get an artifact that might work well with some sorts of builds. Is it better than a Gladiator Sword you've found in a first dungeon and upgraded to Exceptional? I don't know. Or you get a soulbound weapon that requires you to work a lot and maybe respec your character to be effective.
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Aug 10, 2022 12:48
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Anyone know what equipment in PoE 1 makes an appearance in PoE 2? I'm replaying the first game, and I think it'd be cool to have equipment from the first game 'carry over' in a sense to the second game; help keep character continuity and all that. I don't mind losing cheevos and such to console commands, after all.
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Aug 10, 2022 13:34
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The divinity games were just marketed better and have a flashier character builder.
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Aug 10, 2022 13:40
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CommissarMega posted:Anyone know what equipment in PoE 1 makes an appearance in PoE 2? I'm replaying the first game, and I think it'd be cool to have equipment from the first game 'carry over' in a sense to the second game; help keep character continuity and all that. I don't mind losing cheevos and such to console commands, after all. If you had the blade of the endless paths and the whisper of yenwood in Poe1 you can have them reforged into this in 2: https://pillarsofeternity.fandom.com/wiki/Whispers_of_the_Endless_Paths, or have them repaired and keep both as separate. And I guess Eder and Aloth will have the same starting armor between both games. Avalerion fucked around with this message at 13:53 on Aug 10, 2022 |
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Aug 10, 2022 13:50
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CommissarMega posted:Anyone know what equipment in PoE 1 makes an appearance in PoE 2? I'm replaying the first game, and I think it'd be cool to have equipment from the first game 'carry over' in a sense to the second game; help keep character continuity and all that. I don't mind losing cheevos and such to console commands, after all. The Devil of Caroc's armor can carry over depending on their ending. Depending on what you consider their armorx anyway.
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Aug 10, 2022 13:58
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I've been playing Kingmaker very slowly and really love the turn based combat mode (and being able to easily swap to RTWP for larger trash encounters) but the story absolutely sucks and the morality from the alignment chart based choices are dumb even compared to other D&D style games. The gameplay is the only thing keeping me playing to be honest, and I've been taking pretty big breaks between chapters because I get tired of rolling my eyes at some of the plot points, especially in the companion quests. I didn't play the BG games til a few years ago but mostly enjoyed both the story and gameplay in those, but POE 1/2, especially 2, are a level above any other isometric game I've played when taken as a full package.
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Aug 10, 2022 17:06
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The divinity games were just marketed better and have a flashier character builder. Swen is better dressed than Josh, though they're both daddys What I am saying is that rope kid should wear plate armor when hyping his games
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Aug 10, 2022 17:36
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pentyne posted:One of the biggest things for it is to just make a wand of Cure Light Wounds and use that, rather then having to constantly move single scrolls at a time into your inventory belt. It's weird because everyone who plays pathfinder basically lives and dies by the amount of CLW wands they have and it's the cheapest most efficient method of healing in the entire game. Kingmaker has a single wand, maybe two across the entire 100 hours. I will never get over how the best method for healing in a 3.x game is just "carry a sack full of tappy lil heal sticks" and people just accept this without issue.
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Aug 10, 2022 17:58
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CommissarMega posted:Anyone know what equipment in PoE 1 makes an appearance in PoE 2? I'm replaying the first game, and I think it'd be cool to have equipment from the first game 'carry over' in a sense to the second game; help keep character continuity and all that. I don't mind losing cheevos and such to console commands, after all. The returning characters all keep their starting armor*, and Whispers of Yenwood/Blade of the Endless Paths carry over. Other than that, it's all new gear/uniques. *In the case of the Devil of Caroc, you get the carapace but not the character.
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Aug 10, 2022 18:39
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The Outworn Buckler also finds its way to Deadfire and seems to be always present regardless of save state choices.
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Aug 10, 2022 18:56
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There's a couple of mods that add PoE1 items to Deadfire, I like em a lot. Feel free to have a look: https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/477 https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/291 One brings back Gwyn's Band of Union, which is nice as there's an item in Deadfire that's related to it. They also include one of the soulbound items, but it's not implemented as well as it could be (just gives you a spell instead of making it proc) but otherwise great mods. This one adds a couple of PoE1 items as well, but also a bunch of novelty items including The RPG Codex and Crom Faeyr from Baldur's Gate 2, so install at your own risk: https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/415
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Aug 11, 2022 00:00
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Fair Bear Maiden posted:That I agree with, the turn-based combat implementation is very robust and outside of some occasional targeting/movement jank works very well. The core game design was aimed at the actual pnp Pathfinder players, people who play a game that took splat and min-maxing to its final form. Being slow as molasses is deliberate to reflect the travel times. There's even another version wars since Paizo is trying to claw back some of that insane excess with their 2e.
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Aug 11, 2022 01:47
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2house2fly posted:This one adds a couple of PoE1 items as well, but also a bunch of novelty items including The RPG Codex and Crom Faeyr from Baldur's Gate 2, so install at your own risk: The cannon as a melee weapon is pretty good.
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Aug 11, 2022 04:16
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Is there any actual point to doing the naval combat even if you try to take the game at face value and not just avoid it? It feels like the loot I get from beating a ship doesn't even cover the cost of supplies I've used in the days sailing / repairing / etc...
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Aug 11, 2022 04:22
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cheesetriangles posted:Is there any actual point to doing the naval combat even if you try to take the game at face value and not just avoid it? It feels like the loot I get from beating a ship doesn't even cover the cost of supplies I've used in the days sailing / repairing / etc... If you're good at it and kit your ship out right, you can easily take on much more powerful vessels and get a big chunk of change way earlier than you ought to be able to. That's about it, though.
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Aug 11, 2022 04:30
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You can also shoot some enemy crew and make the inevitable melee easier.
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Aug 11, 2022 07:45
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pentyne posted:The core game design was aimed at the actual pnp Pathfinder players, people who play a game that took splat and min-maxing to its final form. Being slow as molasses is deliberate to reflect the travel times. 2e is good yeah. Bummer it doesn't seem likely we'll get an RPG version of it any time soon.
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Aug 11, 2022 10:09
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Does it do anything interesting with multiclassing? Pathfinder approach looks like a spaghetti design. Dozens of classes make multiclassing an obsolete exploit zone. I remember wondering why do 2e D&D needs paladin if there are priests/fighters multiclasses, but it was probably the only example and Paladins have a lot going on for them. PFKM has more than one class for each base class combination and then half of classes have subclasses giving even more.
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Aug 11, 2022 10:59
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All right then, thanks! And thanks for these as well! I do wish Tidefall made it through too, but oh well. Looks like I'm gonna play a 2-H Greatsword guy then! EDIT: One last question- is the blunderbuss still the ranged weapon of choice for Ciphers? CommissarMega fucked around with this message at 12:56 on Aug 11, 2022 |
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Aug 11, 2022 12:01
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There are some fine blunderbusses in poe2 but they fixed the every pellet giving it's own tick of focus thing so it's not outrageously better than other options anymore.
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Aug 11, 2022 16:03
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Avalerion posted:There are some fine blunderbusses in poe2 but they fixed the every pellet giving it's own tick of focus thing so it's not outrageously better than other options anymore. WELL THAT'S JUST BULLSHIT <  >
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Aug 11, 2022 16:22
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Avalerion posted:There are some fine blunderbusses in poe2 but they fixed the every pellet giving it's own tick of focus thing so it's not outrageously better than other options anymore. The kitchen stove blunderbuss remains a great option for Ascendants tho
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Aug 11, 2022 16:27
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Yeah, blunderbusses are still absolutely killer in Deadfire, and now they're one-handed so you can dual wield them.ilitarist posted:Does it do anything interesting with multiclassing? Pathfinder approach looks like a spaghetti design. Dozens of classes make multiclassing an obsolete exploit zone. I remember wondering why do 2e D&D needs paladin if there are priests/fighters multiclasses, but it was probably the only example and Paladins have a lot going on for them. PFKM has more than one class for each base class combination and then half of classes have subclasses giving even more. It was only possible to make a paladin if you rolled really well for ability scores (which, unlike modern D&D, you rolled before you picked a class, possibly even a race? I forget that part), so being able to make a paladin was a prestigious reward for random dice rolls going in your favor. That's the reason you'd make a paladin over a fighter/cleric. And yes, that's a stupid reason. God, I hate the roll-for-stats concept.
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Aug 11, 2022 17:39
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ilitarist posted:Does it do anything interesting with multiclassing? Pathfinder approach looks like a spaghetti design. Dozens of classes make multiclassing an obsolete exploit zone. I remember wondering why do 2e D&D needs paladin if there are priests/fighters multiclasses, but it was probably the only example and Paladins have a lot going on for them. PFKM has more than one class for each base class combination and then half of classes have subclasses giving even more. They basically cut down on multiclassing significantly. You're now locked into the class you chose at level 1 but get to spend a feat you'd otherwise use to get a class ability ("feats" is now kind of a generic catch-all name for all the options you get advancing, there's feats for skill advancement, general feats, feats tied to your heritage, feats for class advancement, etc.) on a 'dedication' which gives you a bunch of stuff comparable to a dip level in another class and more options for how to build your character. Dedications also function as a substitute for prestige classes too, with specific dedications that are their own thing and don't map to the base classes. I know people have complained about the system, but considering the huge amount of options already available, it feels reasonable to me, and definitely clamps on the millions of combinations. There's also a pretty popular variant rule to get a single free dedication at the start of the game so you can get a few more options early on without having to spend a class feat on it, and there's also just less classes in general, although that is changing rapidly as more and more splatbooks get added.
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Aug 11, 2022 19:16
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This sounds like a good solution and reminds me of what PoE1 had. PoE2 is fine in terms of multiclass cause it's a commitment which limits the cheese and also every class is completely unique. In PFKM I had an Inquisitor who could cast priest magic but also had a subclass giving him a pet. Could I take a couple of Ranger levels to get an easy access to dualhwield traits and maintain my pet levels as well as get new priest spells? Or only a pet? I don't know, and I can't tell you if it would be a game-breaking combination or a garbage character. But I sure do know Monk dip would be a good idea, cause I am a pro gamer who've read some tips.
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Aug 11, 2022 19:54
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I really enjoy the multiclassing in POE2 and trying out different combinations is what keeps me returning to it these days. The more that I play around with it, the more I'm convinced that there's no bad multiclass. Or more accurately, I think the game allows a lot of flexibility that caters to different playstyles, and just changing up the subclass or attribute point spread within the same multiclass can produce widely different yet effective builds. For instance, a Fighter/Wizard can lean into the martial side and use the excellent Wizard weapon summons with powerful Fighter abilities such as using Clear Out with Citizal's Spirit Lance for some hilariously huge AoE damage. Or you can create a Tactician/Evoker, where the fighter side becomes more of a supplement to your spellcasting side. Or go Unbroken/Blood Mage to make a high defense super tank that can literally never die. Obviously there's certain combos that don't play well with each other, but the limitations are right there on the tin when you select a subclass and it tells you their malus. So things like a Psion multiclassed with a frontline melee class or a Mage Slayer multiclassed with a spellcasting class might seem like a bad idea. Even then, I wouldn't say they are nonviable, and a certain playstyle could make them work. Like a Psion could multiclass with Trickster and rely on hard crowd control spells, mobility or deflection buffs to avoid getting hit and losing the Psion focus regeneration, and a Mage Slayer/Wizard might not reliably benefit from Wizard self-buffs but I could see a playstyle where you further stack spell resistance and then cast and wade into your own AoEs in order to shutdown other enemy casters. I used to be more hard nosed about not mixing two spellcasting classes together due to limited action economy but I've relaxed on that stance ever since playing Psion/Troubadour, though that's mainly because they are both regenerating "mana" casters, so to speak. But I could still make a case for even comboing certain Vancian casters together. Like a Wizard/Druid would be very effective due to some interesting item metagaming. You can wield Lance of the Midwood Stag and cast Woodskin or Form of the Delemgan, which in themselves are pretty good defensive buffs for your party, especially against ranged enemies, but more importantly they trigger the pike's universal +2 power level bonus which is really strong for a stat stick (as a comparison, Chromoprismatic Staff only gives +1 power level specifically to elemental spells and is found late game, whereas you can get Lance of the Midwood Stag off an early bounty). Wizard then gives you easy access to the Smart inspiration with the Infuse With Vital Essence spell, which will then activate faster spellcasting speed from the Shroud of the Phantasm cloak. You could take that a step further and go Blood Mage subclass and eventually proc Brilliant from the cloak while using Druid spells to heal back the self damage from the blood sacrifice ability and then extending Brilliant with the Wall of Draining wizard spell. So now you have a self-sufficient way of increasing power levels, spellcasting speed, and regaining spell charges that profits both classes. There's even further spell synergy between the two with Combusting Wounds able to proc for ridiculous damage with all the different druid AoE spells. I know these are more weirdo multiclass ideas but more often than not these are the kinds that I found most interesting. I wouldn't rate them as necessarily overpowered, but they can still be plenty effective and it just illustrate the robustness of the multiclassing system in Deadfire since there's ways to integrate seemingly disparate or contrary classes together if you don't mind digging around for unexpected synergies or a playstyle to suit them.
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Aug 11, 2022 23:08
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ilitarist posted:This sounds like a good solution and reminds me of what PoE1 had. PoE2 is fine in terms of multiclass cause it's a commitment which limits the cheese and also every class is completely unique. In PFKM I had an Inquisitor who could cast priest magic but also had a subclass giving him a pet. Could I take a couple of Ranger levels to get an easy access to dualhwield traits and maintain my pet levels as well as get new priest spells? Or only a pet? I don't know, and I can't tell you if it would be a game-breaking combination or a garbage character. Basically everything takes Monk dips in KM because of some endgame robe armor that's objectively the best in the game. The builds for the computer games are shaped in some part around itemization as well, which is where the whole weapon feat-focus-specialization-greater really starts to suck because you have to lock into your main weapon in the first few levels. Really glad to see any game shift away from single weapon characters and just let you use whatever cool new weapons you find without take a massive penalty. It's a problem with both Pathfinder games, the AP's they are covering end up making certain feats and abilities vastly superior based on the nature of the campaign. Can't imagine why anyone would play "Demonhunter" in Kingmaker, and "Defender of the True World" is pointless in Wrath. I liked the PoE2 multiclasses vastly more then anything comparable, even back to the multi-class BG stuff. It makes it feel meaningful to play as a hybrid from 1-20 rather then stacking up random assortments of character levels because the build comes online at level 12 and then just demolishes everything. It does also seem like once you dive into the game, very few of the max level powers are that much more useful compared to the expanded utility of two action pools. Multiclassing in Pathfinder is required to play it at any serious level of difficulty, and it's very non-intuitive. The way some of the abilities can stack for exponential damage requires you to how and when they become available in a build. Wrath was a bit better about explaining multi-class benefit versus risk, but it's still the wild west until you know all the special feats you can take to override some of the issues. Pets are amazing in the game but will only level up when you level up in a class that has a pet by default, unless you take a special feat, so someone not thinking would take 5 levels of druid, then 5 levels of fighter and end up with a level 5 pet that is completely useless.
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Aug 11, 2022 23:16
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I played both pathfinder games on core difficulty with single class characters. The need to do janky bullshit is vastly overstated.
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Aug 11, 2022 23:53
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KPC_Mammon posted:I played both pathfinder games on core difficulty with single class characters. The need to do janky bullshit is vastly overstated. yeah same. just do wotr though, kingmaker isn't really fun and wotr needs a ton of mods to be great (though it does shine when you push it there)
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Aug 12, 2022 00:08
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So long as you made the correct first choice a lot of the game is forgiving without much system mastery. All you had to do was pick Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid, Alchemist, Bard, or Kineticist. In other words, don't be a dumb jock martial. The next best thing to a full progression caster is a gish, so Magus, Paladin, or machine gun Ranger. They can manage fine with only some system mastery. Everything else needs to jank it up or let the spellcaster NPCs carry you.
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Aug 12, 2022 00:09
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nah i did great with a monk
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Aug 12, 2022 00:51
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Mutation warrior rocked it pretty well.
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