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LividLiquid
Apr 13, 2002

BITCOIN BATMAN

Nichael posted:

I do agree completely that George Sr.'s plot was mostly very bad. I honestly just liked Mary Lynn Rajskub and John Slattery in it.
I loved them too. They were great.

Brother Entropy posted:

i just don't really see any hatred in the george sr plot, intentional or not. it's confused and aimless and not really that funny but there's nothing even on the level of the 'shemale' shirt
You don't need to have hate in your heart to do something bad. Intent isn't magic. You can cause damage without meaning to. But, yeah. It wasn't Shemale' levels of bad either.

clown shoes posted:

It was in the original. Still canon even if they cut it out of the remix.
I guess. Fine.

I just... what's the joke? Where was the joke? What was funny about it aside from "lol trans people."

There's the bones of one, where he and Oscar switch places, but it's predicated on Oscar, the nice guy who's always getting screwed by his aggressive brother, becoming more like his brother by stopping taking estrogen and his brother starting it.

So basically, "women are weak and powerless and too sensitive, and men are effective and powerful" as plays out with George becoming suddenly very sensitive about his appearance, which again plays into the women only matter if they're pretty trope, so it just landed with a dull-rear end thud. There's no deconstruction there. Nothing's being examined.

Edit: What's doubly weird is that the big reveal of the season 3 finale is that George was revealed to be the puppet behind Lucile's mastermind. This show demonstrably didn't toy in that arena before.

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underage at the vape shop
May 11, 2011


Youve made your feelings clear people have agreed its not great what are you looking for here? People to get outraged with?

Brother Entropy
Dec 27, 2009

Forreal, call me 'Zelda' in front of my crew again and you're going back in the barrel.



LividLiquid posted:

Edit: What's doubly weird is that the big reveal of the season 3 finale is that George was revealed to be the puppet behind Lucile's mastermind. This show demonstrably didn't toy in that arena before.

this comment making me feel disappointed that we didn't get more about this from s4 lucielle reminded me of the genuinely worst joke of s4 of getting a bunch of asian ladies to say 'roophore' over and over

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011



underage at the vape shop posted:

Youve made your feelings clear people have agreed its not great what are you looking for here? People to get outraged with?

People are arguing with him so that.
Is this your first thread.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004

an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol



AD absolutely punches down often and the original series has a lot of jokes that have not aged super well too. Itís never been the most progressive show, except when it comes to blue people.

ghostwritingduck
Aug 26, 2004

"I hope you like waking up at 6 a.m. and having your favorite things destroyed. P.S. Forgive me because I'm cuter than that $50 wire I just ate."


LividLiquid posted:

I loved them too. They were great.

You don't need to have hate in your heart to do something bad. Intent isn't magic. You can cause damage without meaning to. But, yeah. It wasn't Shemale' levels of bad either.

I guess. Fine.

I just... what's the joke? Where was the joke? What was funny about it aside from "lol trans people."

There's the bones of one, where he and Oscar switch places, but it's predicated on Oscar, the nice guy who's always getting screwed by his aggressive brother, becoming more like his brother by stopping taking estrogen and his brother starting it.

So basically, "women are weak and powerless and too sensitive, and men are effective and powerful" as plays out with George becoming suddenly very sensitive about his appearance, which again plays into the women only matter if they're pretty trope, so it just landed with a dull-rear end thud. There's no deconstruction there. Nothing's being examined.

Edit: What's doubly weird is that the big reveal of the season 3 finale is that George was revealed to be the puppet behind Lucile's mastermind. This show demonstrably didn't toy in that arena before.

The joke felt more targeted at men getting older and losing their edge as their testosterone lowers. I didnít see the trans thing (although I understand how you did) because no female characters are portrayed that way in the show.

Mode 7
Jul 28, 2007

And though you fight to stay alive, your body starts to shiver.
For no mere mortal can resist the evil of the thriller...

WAHAHAHAHAHA!


In general, Season 4 feels a lot more mean-spirited/cruel to me than Seasons 1 - 3 ever did, though I don't know if I could articulate anything concrete as to why I feel that way.

ghostwritingduck
Aug 26, 2004

"I hope you like waking up at 6 a.m. and having your favorite things destroyed. P.S. Forgive me because I'm cuter than that $50 wire I just ate."


Mode 7 posted:

In general, Season 4 feels a lot more mean-spirited/cruel to me than Seasons 1 - 3 ever did, though I don't know if I could articulate anything concrete as to why I feel that way.

I think Michael came off like a good guy in the earlier seasons. In the 4th season, he was almost as our there as the rest of the family.

Calaveron
Aug 7, 2006



ghostwritingduck posted:

I think Michael came off like a good guy in the earlier seasons. In the 4th season, he was almost as our there as the rest of the family.

He always was hypocritical and sanctimonious though, Iím fairly sure

David D. Davidson
Nov 17, 2012

Orca lady?

He's a bad person, he just looks good next to everyone else in the family.

FactsAreUseless
Feb 16, 2011


LividLiquid posted:

Can this not be a thing? Can this not have happened? I never liked the nevernude joke because at is core, the real crux of the jokes are "aren't marginalized people without public support the worst?" "Aren't mental illnesses wacky?"

Like, straight-up, let's talk about this like never-nudes aren't really a thing, though they are. The entire joke is predicated on disability being funny if it's uncommon and doesn't make sense to the average person.

It's not a good joke.

Anything that's "LOL because people are different from the rest of us" is a lazy-rear end joke.

I love Arrested Development, but it punches down sometimes. You can absolutely joke about anything, but how you do it matters. The punchline of George Sr.'s involuntary transition is, at its core, "isn't it funny that some dudes think they're women? Aren't hormones weird?" There's nothing deeper there. It isn't an exploration of something worth exploring. It's just "haha man becomes woman. Ridiculous."

And the nevernude thing isn't as bad as that, but what makes it funny? What's the joke? The joke is "aren't people with disorders I don't understand hilarious?"

Like Seinfeld with Tim Watley, I'm less offended as a nonbinary person with mental illness than I am as a comedian. It's cheap. It's poo poo. It doesn't do any work. There's no there there. It doesn't deconstruct anything. It just points at difference and laughs.

Again, I still love this show, but not everything it does is perfect.
You're wrong about the macca subplot. It's not about trans people, it's just reversing the power dynamic between George and Oscar. The point isn't that it's funny that George is taking on feminine traits. It's funny because his status relative to Oscar's had changed in a way he would find humiliating.

FactsAreUseless
Feb 16, 2011


Which isn't to say that AD has never done transphobic jokes, just that the macca plot isn't one of them.

Chairman Capone
Dec 17, 2008



Mode 7 posted:

In general, Season 4 feels a lot more mean-spirited/cruel to me than Seasons 1 - 3 ever did, though I don't know if I could articulate anything concrete as to why I feel that way.

I thought the entire Tobias storyline in the season, while absolutely hilarious, was really mean and cruel to him in a way that his merry mix-ups in the original run never were.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004

an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol



Season 4 Michael is definitely worse but he was for sure a hypocritical douche in the earlier seasons, they just didnít make it as overt. I think the focus on Michaelís shittiness is one of s4ís major flaws, even if it does lead to some really funny moments.

Also I wonder how many people would have been willing to give the season more of a chance if it hadnít began with an incredibly un-AD Grinch rhyming couplet joke that kinda just leaves you feeling baffled

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006



I feel like there's an epidemic of people not realizing that protagonists are not necessary people you should be identifying with in terms of "oh, here's a good person", both with AD and other shows, and making Michael more overtly bad was a way of making this more clear, but it upset people who didn't realize Michael was poo poo all along.

dreffen
Dec 3, 2005

MEDIOCRE, MORSOV!


PT6A posted:

I feel like there's an epidemic of people not realizing that protagonists are not necessary people you should be identifying with in terms of "oh, here's a good person", both with AD and other shows, and making Michael more overtly bad was a way of making this more clear, but it upset people who didn't realize Michael was poo poo all along.

Thread love Michael

Open Source Idiom
Jan 4, 2013


Yeah, I was honestly pretty happy for them to make this explicit. He's always been as deeply narcissistic as his siblings, something his interactions with Rita make a particular point of. I'd argue that he's occasionally as cruel as is mother is, though he usually defends himself with moral high ground logic. His treatment of Anne is just as bad as anyone else's though, if not worse given that he purports to have such a strong relationship with his son.

Ingmar terdman
Jul 24, 2006



"This is Michael Bluth. He's a good man."

While that may not be or have never been true what cannot be denied is that Jason Bateman has always had a great head of hair

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJS5hqXg5N4

Calaveron
Aug 7, 2006



Rewatching the re-edit after only ever watching the original once years ago. Man the green screen sticks like a sore thumb
Also the edit seems to make jokes flow a little bit better but it Man the original version was so ambitious and some of the jokes hit you like a beautiful ton of bricks

Calaveron
Aug 7, 2006



Also I miss the personalized opening credits

GigaPeon
Apr 29, 2003

Go, man, go!

You can tell the really meant for this to run in syndication as about 5 minutes of each episode are Ron narrating clips of previous episodes.

Also they changed all the "Unlicensed Screen Stealer Pro" watermarks to "Property of Fox". Lame.

Calaveron
Aug 7, 2006



Oh poo poo I accidentally skipped the credits, what was the name of the uh, actor who played Lindseyís shaman? Chir Tso or something like that right

Ingmar terdman
Jul 24, 2006



Calaveron posted:

Oh poo poo I accidentally skipped the credits, what was the name of the uh, actor who played Lindseyís shaman? Chir Tso or something like that right

...maeby

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004

an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol



I think theyíre saying they made a fake credit for the shaman and they forgot to check what it was.

Calaveron
Aug 7, 2006



Jessica Walters is a delight, her, Will Arnett, and Dave Cross are the best part of this show

Edit: Ah, it was Rich Alliandanost

Calaveron fucked around with this message at May 13, 2018 around 21:15

Calaveron
Aug 7, 2006



Oh man my first time I completely missed George Michael was about to do his version of a chicken but got interrupted by the patents guy

Golden Bee
Dec 24, 2009

I came here to chew bubblegum and quote 'They Live', and I'm... at an impasse.


I think itís down to Jasonís acting that people that he would say likable, normal guy as he dated and kidnapped a retarded woman.

Isometric Bacon
Jul 24, 2004

Let's get naked!

Golden Bee posted:

I think it’s down to Jason’s acting that people that he would say likable, normal guy as he dated and kidnapped a retarded woman.

He's also the main protaganist and the straight man of the first three seasons, who you are actively rooting for, and like him you wish him to turn the families situation around, despite the fact they keep demonstrating they're not deserving of it.

Whereas in the fourth season he's more of a secondary character (in that each episode has it's own primary protaganist), and in his episodes you're more rooting for George Michael to kick his overbearing father out of his life, who is just as neurotic and damaged as the rest of them.

I much preferred the college episodes in the remix, as I remember them dragging on forever in the original run, but sadly the great payoff of 'Fakeblock''s actual purpose and George Michael's status as a not-Zuckerberg-wunderkind was revealed straight away when in chronological order.

Calaveron
Aug 7, 2006



Isometric Bacon posted:

He's also the main protaganist and the straight man of the first three seasons, who you are actively rooting for, and like him you wish him to turn the families situation around, despite the fact they keep demonstrating they're not deserving of it.

Whereas in the fourth season he's more of a secondary character (in that each episode has it's own primary protaganist), and in his episodes you're more rooting for George Michael to kick his overbearing father out of his life, who is just as neurotic and damaged as the rest of them.

I much preferred the college episodes in the remix, as I remember them dragging on forever in the original run, but sadly the great payoff of 'Fakeblock''s actual purpose and George Michael's status as a not-Zuckerberg-wunderkind was revealed straight away when in chronological order.

Yeah, this was a huge disappointment. Didn't they do the fakeblock reveal on Maeby's episode which was like, the third to last episode of the season?

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004

an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol



It was the third to last episode but that was George Michaelís first spotlight ep.

Phenotype
Jul 24, 2007

You must defeat Sheng Long to stand a chance.


Yeah, I thought that was such a great reveal in the original. You're so used to TV show plots where the kid is "good at computers" and comes up with some revolutionary new idea that over the course of 8-9 episodes you've just accepted that George-Michael is about to cash in with his app, and then you find out no, it's just the same ol' Bluth family lying to eachother.

And then they just kinda blow it immediately in the recut.

Solice Kirsk
Jun 1, 2004

.


Those big long pauses he took before answering were also a lot funnier in the original cut.

Phenotype
Jul 24, 2007

You must defeat Sheng Long to stand a chance.


Yeah, and originally you're thinking "it's just George-Michael being weird and awkward, of course." It just turned the entire premise of that whole subplot on its head, and they'd been building on it for practically the entire show. I can see how it might have been difficult when you're trying to cut together George-Michael segments with the rest of the cast, but was really a shame that they didn't try to maintain it for the recut.

Brother Entropy
Dec 27, 2009

Forreal, call me 'Zelda' in front of my crew again and you're going back in the barrel.



the george michael stuff was the high point of season 4 for me, which is probably a big reason i'm so down on the remix compared to the original

Golden Bee
Dec 24, 2009

I came here to chew bubblegum and quote 'They Live', and I'm... at an impasse.


Did they explain P houndís nickname this time?

Ingmar terdman
Jul 24, 2006



Has any superfan made an attempt to put years to the different parts of S4? Technically it spans from 06 (Queen Mary) to 13 (Lucille 2 murder), so even just like a this many years before or after those events would help. Or even just when the Opie/Love/Schnoodle gala happens, since it appears to be about midway into the season in both versions

The Walrus
Jul 9, 2002



I mean I guess that would be 08 or 12, right?

FactsAreUseless
Feb 16, 2011


The Walrus posted:

I mean I guess that would be 08 or 12, right?
Lindsey gives a Love rally at the same Cinco de Quatro rally that Tobias' play is at and Michael confronts Lucille 2.

During this, Gob is having same sex with Tony Wonder.

Calaveron
Aug 7, 2006



Phenotype posted:

Yeah, I thought that was such a great reveal in the original. You're so used to TV show plots where the kid is "good at computers" and comes up with some revolutionary new idea that over the course of 8-9 episodes you've just accepted that George-Michael is about to cash in with his app, and then you find out no, it's just the same ol' Bluth family lying to eachother.

And then they just kinda blow it immediately in the recut.

These guys are pros so I don't doubt they had a big corkboard with miles of yarn trying to figure it out and realized there was no way for them to recut the season successfully without revealing fakeblock earlier

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Ingmar terdman
Jul 24, 2006



Calaveron posted:

These guys are pros so I don't doubt they had a big corkboard with miles of yarn trying to figure it out and realized there was no way for them to recut the season successfully without revealing fakeblock earlier

I recall a pre s4 interview with Cera where he said the writers room was literally this

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