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Ingmar terdman
Jul 24, 2006



Making snoke a clone/puppet in 9 after pointing out he sucks and doesnt matter in 8 really feels like "uh yeah that was the point the whole time yeah totally snoke is a pale imitation of palpatine" yadda yadda

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Grandpa Palpatine
Dec 13, 2019







Zoran posted:

I wonder how much of TLJ was affected by Trump actually winning partway through production

not as much as Justice League's

Seriously, go back and watch it if you can stand it. All of a sudden everyone seems extremely depressed from one scene to the next. You can literally tell what was shot after the election lmbo.

Grandpa Palpatine
Dec 13, 2019







Ingmar terdman posted:

Making snoke a clone/puppet in 9 after pointing out he sucks and doesnt matter in 8 really feels like "uh yeah that was the point the whole time yeah totally snoke is a pale imitation of palpatine" yadda yadda

Yea it's too bad because I'm pretty sure the initial message was "we've already seen this poo poo before -- he's just the latest rear end in a top hat in charge, and now he's loving dead." That's the subtext I got from the Kylo betrayal at least.

TheBigBudgetSequel posted:

He still technically does. Of all the deals that Disney had announced, his is one that hasn't been announced as being scrapped like the Josh Trank (then James Mangold) Boba Fett film, or the trilogy of films from the Game of Thrones dudes. They haven't elaborated on what it will be or when it's happening, but it's never been cancelled, despite the weirdos on youtube saying otherwise. I imagine Rian is more inclined to make more Benoit Blanc films currently, but I imagine we'll get more Star Wars from Rian at some point and the anger it will cause will be hilarious to watch.

I'm all for Rian pissing off every douchebag who threw a temper tantrum and caused us to get Rise of Skywalker instead of a decent final film.

ungulateman
Apr 18, 2012
Hello I am a person doing a thing via buttons. It's amazing what electronic singnals traveling through space can accomplish.

Makes ya think.

Purple m&ms are the best.

Grandpa Palpatine posted:

not as much as Justice League's

Seriously, go back and watch it if you can stand it. All of a sudden everyone seems extremely depressed from one scene to the next. You can literally tell what was shot after the election lmbo.

i think that's just a natural reaction to being directed by joss whedon tbh

Flesnolk
Apr 11, 2012



A neural network watches Star Wars:

OctoberCountry
Oct 9, 2012


TheBigBudgetSequel posted:

He still technically does. Of all the deals that Disney had announced, his is one that hasn't been announced as being scrapped like the Josh Trank (then James Mangold) Boba Fett film, or the trilogy of films from the Game of Thrones dudes. They haven't elaborated on what it will be or when it's happening, but it's never been cancelled, despite the weirdos on youtube saying otherwise. I imagine Rian is more inclined to make more Benoit Blanc films currently, but I imagine we'll get more Star Wars from Rian at some point and the anger it will cause will be hilarious to watch.

Considering the marketing lead-up to IX and the movie itself I really don't know how anyone could ever think Disney's going to produce another Rian Johnson Star Wars film

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


Grandpa Palpatine posted:

Yea it's too bad because I'm pretty sure the initial message was "we've already seen this poo poo before -- he's just the latest rear end in a top hat in charge, and now he's loving dead." That's the subtext I got from the Kylo betrayal at least.


I'm all for Rian pissing off every douchebag who threw a temper tantrum and caused us to get Rise of Skywalker instead of a decent final film.

Your brain is broken if you think internet nerds ruined Star Wars 9.

Doctor Spaceman
Jul 6, 2010

"Everyone's entitled to their point of view, but that's seriously a weird one."


Jewmanji posted:

Your brain is broken if you think internet nerds ruined Star Wars 9.

Disney feels the need to respond to common criticisms in their live-action remakes (to the detriment of the films) so I don't know why it's crazy that it could happen to Star Wars too.

Elias_Maluco
Aug 23, 2007
I need to sleep

I think is more about lazy dumb greedy executives wanting to give those nerds what they want to make easy money

Solaris 2.0
May 14, 2008



Considering the number of forced cameos, call backs, unpopular characters removed (rip rose) and dialogue lines meant to appease fans "I gotta bad feeling about this!" RoS sure feels like it was designed from the ground up to appease fans upset by TLJ instead of telling any kind of coherent story or building up it's characters.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


Sorry but 7 and 8 were both awful. 9 isn’t the exception here

Solaris 2.0 posted:

Considering the number of forced cameos, call backs, unpopular characters removed (rip rose) and dialogue lines meant to appease fans "I gotta bad feeling about this!" RoS sure feels like it was designed from the ground up to appease fans upset by TLJ instead of telling any kind of coherent story or building up it's characters.

You could literally say this about VII:

“Considering the number of forced cameos, call backs, unpopular characters removed and dialogue lines meant to appease fans "I gotta bad feeling about this!" TFA sure feels like it was designed from the ground up to appease fans upset by the prequels instead of telling any kind of coherent story or building up it's characters.”

The sequels are uniformly awful. Any difference in quality from film to film is negligible if you squint. The suggestion that IX was going to be good until Disney cowardly decided to bow to internet nerd rage is literally just internet myth making. VII and VIII were garbage, why would IX be any different? The problem isn’t Disney spinelessly appeasing nerds upset about VIII, the problem is Disney spinelessly appeasing nerds upset about the prequels.

Solaris 2.0
May 14, 2008



Jewmanji posted:

Sorry but 7 and 8 were both awful. 9 isn’t the exception here


You could literally say this about VII:

“Considering the number of forced cameos, call backs, unpopular characters removed and dialogue lines meant to appease fans "I gotta bad feeling about this!" TFA sure feels like it was designed from the ground up to appease fans upset by the prequels instead of telling any kind of coherent story or building up it's characters.”

The sequels are uniformly awful. Any difference in quality from film to film is negligible if you squint. The suggestion that IX was going to be good until Disney cowardly decided to bow to internet nerd rage is literally just internet myth making. VII and VIII were garbage, why would IX be any different? The problem isn’t Disney spinelessly appeasing nerds upset about VIII, the problem is Disney spinelessly appeasing nerds upset about the prequels.

Yea I'm not going to defend any of the sequels because I agree they're all bad (I'll stan a little for TLJ because I appreciate what it was trying to do) I just pick on RoS because it is the worst of the bunch.

As I detailed in my previous post a page ago, TFA is the original sin of the series and set up the whole "saga" for failure by focusing too much on old characters and not developing the new ones, and reusing the same goddamn story beats (protagonist on desert planet, super death weapon, emperor figure, death of old wise guiding character, sneak into hostile super weapon base, ect) from the previous movies. It didn't have anything original to say about the universe or its characters.

Like, imagine the character possibilities if, for example, Fin was a brain washed Storm Trooper who only turned good/fled because he suddenly became force-sensitive and began to freak the gently caress out. And the series is about him further discovering the force as it tries to guide him to the light side (the force chose you) while being very, very tempted to go to the dark side because of his Storm Trooper background?

Instead FIN decides he suddenly is tired of shooting civilians (which ok I can buy) but then spends the whole series....idk? Following people around? First he follows Rey, then in TLJ gets a GF and does gently caress all, and in RoS gets another new GF but still does gently caress all except make a lame joke here and there?

All of the new characters in this sequel series are wasted. And all of the old ones are wasted to, undoing all of the character development they had built in episodes 4,5,6 (Leia is a rebel leader again! Han is back to smuggling! Luke is..ok lukes just the new Yoda) and then they all get killed off. Great.

Solaris 2.0 fucked around with this message at 14:58 on May 12, 2020

Elias_Maluco
Aug 23, 2007
I need to sleep

What I believe is that some marketing executives sat down and created a formula based on dumb superficial understanding of what made the original trilogy so great and then twisted it to satisfy average fan expectations, and that formula was forced into all three movies

And no good director or writer could have made much better cause they had to follow that stupid unimaginative formula

I might be wrong, but thats how I explain the feeling I got, in all 3 movies, of watching a bad reboot of the original trilogy mixed with bad star wars fanfic

Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 15:02 on May 12, 2020

Happy Noodle Boy
Jul 3, 2002

Don't fuckle with Shuckle(s)

Like that other Shuckle, but different.


Mando season 2 has officially been completely hijacked by Rebels

OctoberCountry
Oct 9, 2012


What'd you think was going to happen when the first season ended with them pulling a lightsaber out of nowhere

PeterWeller
Apr 20, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.


Jewmanji posted:

Sorry but 7 and 8 were both awful. 9 isn’t the exception here


You could literally say this about VII:

“Considering the number of forced cameos, call backs, unpopular characters removed and dialogue lines meant to appease fans "I gotta bad feeling about this!" TFA sure feels like it was designed from the ground up to appease fans upset by the prequels instead of telling any kind of coherent story or building up it's characters.”

The sequels are uniformly awful. Any difference in quality from film to film is negligible if you squint. The suggestion that IX was going to be good until Disney cowardly decided to bow to internet nerd rage is literally just internet myth making. VII and VIII were garbage, why would IX be any different? The problem isn’t Disney spinelessly appeasing nerds upset about VIII, the problem is Disney spinelessly appeasing nerds upset about the prequels.

I do love 8, but otherwise, I entirely agree. Hell, the first line of spoken dialog in the sequels is "This will begin to make things right." It's obvious metacommentary on the prequels.



I'll say it again: the moment Giancarlo Esposito ignited the Dark Saber, Mando set itself up as the live action sequel to Rebels and Clone Wars.

The Little Death
Mar 5, 2015




Elias_Maluco posted:

What I believe is that some marketing executives sat down and created a formula based on dumb superficial understanding of what made the original trilogy so great and then twisted it to satisfy average fan expectations, and that formula was forced into all three movies

And no good director or writer could have made much better cause they had to follow that stupid unimaginative formula

I might be wrong, but thats how I explain the feeling I got, in all 3 movies, of watching a bad reboot of the original trilogy mixed with bad star wars fanfic

It's weird that Disney felt the need to stick so much to the box of existing canon. Even new elements added are all visually similar to previous elements, all the locations and all the characters look like things from the OT. It's a very algorythm-brained approach to making movies that I think is getting worse and worse as time goes on.

Also, the only thing that TLJ did that was interesting was the idea of these two fated characters deciding to tear the system that's dooming them to fight instead of accepting their fate. That was interesting until they veered away from it at the end. If you remove that single element then everything else in TLJ is really bad.



The Little Death fucked around with this message at 18:16 on May 12, 2020

Zoran
Aug 19, 2008

I lost to you once, monster. I shall not lose again! Die now, that our future can live!


Any truly interesting continuation from Episode VI would’ve had our heroes resurrect the Republic, only to find that they hadn’t really solved its problems, and now they’d gotten too old and jaded do anything different. But that would’ve been the dreaded politics.

The Little Death
Mar 5, 2015




Zoran posted:

Any truly interesting continuation from Episode VI would’ve had our heroes resurrect the Republic, only to find that they hadn’t really solved its problems, and now they’d gotten too old and jaded do anything different. But that would’ve been the dreaded politics.

It's been mentioned previously in the thread but something dealing with the actual fallout of taking apart the empire, all of the conflicts the Empire papered over that brought it about in the first place, say a resurgent seperatist movement, or remenant imperial warlords to strong to take down. So that it's an ongoing effort, old giving way to the new, instead of an absurd reset to the status quo.

Elias_Maluco
Aug 23, 2007
I need to sleep

Instead we had the all powerful "first order" pulled out of some unknown rear end in the first movie, so they could rewind to the same situation of IV

Only they basically beat it on the second movie, so in the third they had to pull the emperor itself out of the death star rear end and he pulls a huge fleet out of his rear end, now with every ship a death star, so we are back at it again! Also he explains the first order was pulled out of his rear end too, along with Snoke, so conclusion! Everything was tied up from the beginning!

Grandpa Palpatine
Dec 13, 2019







Jewmanji posted:

Your brain is broken if you think internet nerds ruined Star Wars 9.

gj you ruined the film, dipshit

hope all that whining and moaning was worth it.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

The only nerds who ruined episode 9 were the ones who worked at Disney and had any influence on the film's production. DrunkDriver1488 didnt speak episode 9 into existence by calling Kelly Marie Tran a bitch on twitter

Ingmar terdman
Jul 24, 2006



The resistance should have been fighting the republic or something. I could buy that the resistance is Leia-led faction that thinks the government has lost its way

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


Yeah the obvious direction was to follow Episode III's lead. There are heroes on both sides. Just have the heroes of VI become bureaucratic villains upholding a new and unjust neoliberal regime. Put the audience in the same destabilizing place that the prequels did. Have Leia become like an Iyad Allawi figure. Or like, the technocrats of the Obama administration.

porfiria
Dec 10, 2008


Jewmanji posted:

Yeah the obvious direction was to follow Episode III's lead. There are heroes on both sides. Just have the heroes of VI become bureaucratic villains upholding a new and unjust neoliberal regime. Put the audience in the same destabilizing place that the prequels did. Have Leia become like an Iyad Allawi figure. Or like, the technocrats of the Obama administration.

Leia/Leia's daughter Rey as the villain of the sequel trilogy is absolutely where they needed to go with it, but Disney wouldn't have done it in a million trillion years.

Solaris 2.0
May 14, 2008



Both Rey and Fin are force sensitive but the series is about their struggles with controlling the force while relying on each other for support. Except Fin is the one who goes toward the light side while Rey gets pulled by the dark.

Insane Totoro
Dec 5, 2005

Take cover!!!
That Totoro has an AR-15!



Doesn't that make complete sense since it's.... Well, about Mandalorians?

Mat Cauthon
Jan 2, 2006

The more tragic things get, the more I feel like laughing.

Fallen Rib

Solaris 2.0 posted:

Both Rey and Fin are force sensitive but the series is about their struggles with controlling the force while relying on each other for support. Except Fin is the one who goes toward the light side while Rey gets pulled by the dark.

This feels like the best course of action. You have all the pieces in place, just scramble around a bit:

- Have Rey completely gently caress Kylo up at the end of TFA, not just scar him. While he's recovering in a coma he can have his heart to heart with Han's ghost, maybe some Leia reaches out to him too while she's in a coma. You can still do the Force connection stuff with Rey, and the end result is he wakes up as Ben Solo.

- Rey finds Luke but rather than just deciding to have an extended vacation he's stuck on achh-to because of some sort of Force trap that he can't figure out. Have him train Rey but with the hints of dark side stuff that we saw from her in RoS. She heel turns and abandons Luke there, still meets up with Ben, kills snoke, only she stays on the ship and takes over the First Order.

- Finn wakes up, starts having all sorts of Force accidents. He and Rose still go on their casino run but they encounter Ahsoka in addition to DJ. She gives him some tips on using the Force, balancing light and dark, being a Jedi doesn't mean you can't fail, etc. They still end up on the Snoke ship, he still has his fight with Phasma, etc.

So it's Rey vs Luke's projection, with Luke showing that rather than running away after training a student goes bad, he's going to take action. Ben in the Falcon to rescue the rebellion, setting up some tension with Finn, Poe, Leia, etc. Going into Episode 9 you have Ben back in the light seeking redemption, Finn as the grey Jedi, and Rey on the dark side. The Palpatine stuff works there but I think Trevorrow's script is probably the better fit given the whole stolen Star Destroyer thing and Finn inciting rebellion among Storm Troopers.

Whether Luke or Leia are alive, what roles they play, etc could go either way but overall it makes the new characters the center and gives them some conflict and stakes that aren't just retreads.

Jewel Repetition
Dec 24, 2012

Ask me about Briar Rose and Chicken Chaser.




Lightanchor posted:

What's "so good?" Giving Rey the literal Mary Sue force power to make everyone like her? Having everyone swayed by snappy dialogue to join the good guys?

I do like how instead of trying to make her not a Mary Sue they just lean into it as hard as possible for a deconstruction. Also the stuff about the First Order's clone army. This stuff would be entertaining on its own but the way it works best is as what it is, a response to the movies that already exist

Jewel Repetition
Dec 24, 2012

Ask me about Briar Rose and Chicken Chaser.




Really what makes that video impressive is that it takes all of the themes the ST are supposedly about and explores them for real, while still keeping a a lot of the plot and most of the characters. It gave itself an extreme limitation and succeeded in it

Gonz
Dec 22, 2009

"Jesus, did I say that? Or just think it? Was I talking? Did they hear me?"


Rey taking Ben's hand could've been the most interesting thing to happen to Star Wars since Vader's parentage reveal.

Disney would've never done anything to rock the boat on their crown jewel, though. Especially not that hard of a rocking. Instead, they decided to have a cookie cutter machine on a conveyor belt write their movies, delivering it safely to theaters for mass consumption.

I liked a lot of TLJ and some parts here and there of TROS, but good god, I have no respect left for JJ Abrams anymore. Dude is awful.

No Mods No Masters
Oct 3, 2004

Hi!


JJ is willing to take all these slings and arrows upon himself, to protect the pristine name of our beloved chris terrio. Rarely has hollywood seen a more noble sacrifice

Gonz
Dec 22, 2009

"Jesus, did I say that? Or just think it? Was I talking? Did they hear me?"


Argo was a perfectly cromulent film full of creative license poo poo that never actually happened, but I cannot understand why Terrio won the screenwriting Oscar for it.

Jewel Repetition
Dec 24, 2012

Ask me about Briar Rose and Chicken Chaser.




The Virgin: saw TROS in theaters
The Chad: pirated it, Disney never saw a cent of their money
The Thad: never watched it at all and never will

Ingmar terdman
Jul 24, 2006



George "The Thad" Lucas

Gonz
Dec 22, 2009

"Jesus, did I say that? Or just think it? Was I talking? Did they hear me?"


I respect the everloving gently caress out of Lucas for pulling the parachute ripcord on Star Wars so he can live out the rest of his life with his money and his family and not have to be stressed out about nerds harrassing him all the time about poo poo anymore.

On an unrelated note, I am extremely hyped for that Taika Waititi Star Wars movie. I hope corporate realizes that he should be given free reign for any ideas related to it, but i'm not getting my hopes too far up for that.

Polo-Rican
Jul 3, 2004

emptyquote my posts or die

Gonz posted:

On an unrelated note, I am extremely hyped for that Taika Waititi Star Wars movie.

i'll toxx that he'll be fired "move on to other projects"

Maarak
May 23, 2007


Solaris 2.0 posted:

At the end of the day TFA is like a Kirkland brand retread of "A New Hope". Disney has the money to hire some of the best writers on the planet, and the Star Wars universe is/was full of an infinite number of possibilities to base a new sequel trilogy on. And the plot of TFA was the best they could come up with??

The most fun I had with the sequel trilogy was in the aftermath of the first full trailer for TFA when everyone was trying to surmise what the plot was.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGbxmsDFVnE

Just watching this (and it was a loving fantastic trailer) , I remember engaging in debates like:

Was Fin a stormtrooper who suddenly became force-sensitive and is now freaking the gently caress out? Was Rey the daughter of Leia and Han? Is the New Order the Imperial Remnant that suddenly became even more fascist and cult-like? Is the struggling New Republic a war-torn mess that can't cope with a resurgent New Order? What happen to Luke and his Jedi Academy?

So many possibilities could be had, it felt like the plot could go anywhere!

Instead JJ and Disney decided "ehh let's just do A New Hope again, but worse, and what if instead of a death star the New Order has a ....PLANET STAR. Also for whatever reason there's still a "resistance" because the New Republic can't be arsed to confront them?"
And instead of focusing on developing the film's new characters (Rey, Poe, Fin) the film spends way too much time reintroducing old ones who have gone back to...doing the exact same thing they were doing decades before? As if 0 character development had occurred in episodes 4,5,6?

TFA is the original sin of the sequel trilogy. TLJ and RoS just continued the downward slide.

For quite a stretch (days, weeks?) I was downright convinced based on that initial trailer that the primary antagonist in the film with the crazy broadsword lightsaber was played by Gwendoline Christie; why else cast her in a Star Wars if not to put a sword in her hand?

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.




Jewel Repetition posted:

I do like how instead of trying to make her not a Mary Sue they just lean into it as hard as possible for a deconstruction. Also the stuff about the First Order's clone army. This stuff would be entertaining on its own but the way it works best is as what it is, a response to the movies that already exist

In Super Robot Wars OG 2, they introduce a new character that is extremely Mary Sue-ish. and then in the final level the villain reveal he created him that way to serve as fuel for his ascension to Godhood.

...poo poo, that's the plot of Rise of Skywalker, isn't it?

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Darko
Dec 23, 2004



Jewmanji posted:

Yeah the obvious direction was to follow Episode III's lead. There are heroes on both sides. Just have the heroes of VI become bureaucratic villains upholding a new and unjust neoliberal regime. Put the audience in the same destabilizing place that the prequels did. Have Leia become like an Iyad Allawi figure. Or like, the technocrats of the Obama administration.

Disney refused to make a protagonist a once terrorist in Rogue One to the point of reshooting half of the movie; they absolutely don't like any kind of real world parallels of nuance with their Star Wars.

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