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euphronius
Feb 18, 2009






If British actors in jodhpurs make you think of Nazi that’s fine. As I mentioned you can think of nazis whenever you want based on any stimulus.

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garycoleisgod
Sep 27, 2004
Boo

euphronius posted:

I have no problem with people saying the FO makes them think of nazis. My point was they are explicitly not Nazis, are not cosplaying nazis (someone literally said above “cosplaying nazis) and do not have any nazi imagery, express any Nazi ideas, have no Nazi symbols, uniforms etc. the Movies at no point are saysing the first order are the NSDAP. The movies aren’t even set on earth !!!! It’s fine if you think they are nazis. I don’t know why you do but whatever. A lot of people these days think anarchists or communists are nazis !! It’s a strange world.

Compare to a film like I don’t know, Hellboy which has depictions of actual (fictional) Nazis

I don't think the FO are Nazis either, but for those who do, why did the heroes accept the help of one and what does this say about them?

There's more to being Nazis than having rallies. The Soviet Union held rallies too, and no matter what you think of that regime, they sure weren't nazis.

General Dog
Apr 26, 2008

New Year, New Me!

garycoleisgod posted:

I don't think the FO are Nazis either, but for those who do, why did the heroes accept the help of one and what does this say about them?

There's more to being Nazis than having rallies. The Soviet Union held rallies too, and no matter what you think of that regime, they sure weren't nazis.

I don't think it says anything about them, if the alternative is being captured and executed. It doesn't seem that he had a formal clemency deal or anything; it seems like nobody for the Resistance even knew his identity.

TheDeadlyShoe
Feb 14, 2014

pretense is my co-pilot


Speaking of the spy - the Resistance is so ineffective the only spy they have in the First Order is literally a charity spy doing it for reasons of pure internal politicking. And the only First Order soldier they manage to convert to their viewpoint they literally held at gunpoint until he could be swayed.

General Dog
Apr 26, 2008

New Year, New Me!

Seems like whatever peace treaty the Empire and Republic signed wouldn't allow them to build more world-destroying superweapons and the biggest fleet in the galaxy, I guess neither they nor the Resistance noticed.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


General Dog posted:

I couldn't remember if that was ever stated explicitly, but if so that's dumb as hell.

Again, it's pretty easy to reconcile the discrepancy.

How does the First Order conquer an entire galaxy in two weeks? Well, obviously, the vast majority of people in the galaxy had already sided with the First Order. Snoke had already won before these films even began and, with the New Republican superweapons around Coruscant destroyed, it was a simple matter of mopping up small pockets of reactionary sentiment.

Remember: under Palpatine's fascist rule, the Rebel Alliance was able to garner widespread support across most of the political spectrum. Even Vader was open to working with them (albeit only on his terms). The Resistance can't accomplish that, because the First Order aren't fascists.

YOLOsubmarine
Oct 19, 2004

When asked which Pokemon he evolved into, Kamara pauses.

"Motherfucking, what's that big dragon shit? That orange motherfucker. Charizard."



Acebuckeye13 posted:

My counterpoint to this is that while "the galaxy doesn't care about the resistance" is a common interpretation in this thread, imo a far likelier one (and the one I think the film is *trying* to get across) is that the First Order has already successfully cowed the galaxy into submission. Keep in mind, it's only been a day or two since the entire galaxy witnessed the Hosnian system get blown up—a horrific display of power that the old Empire could have only hoped in their wildest dreams to achieve, and one that demonstrates quite clearly what's going to happen to anyone who's not completely on board with the First Order's seizure of galactic power.

For a historic parallel, the Nazi invasion of Czechoslovakia is somewhat apt. In both cases, the Galaxy/wider world stood idly by as an opponent to the First Order/Nazi Germany was crushed and subjugated. However, the reason why wasn't because France and England didn't care—it was because their leaders saw themselves as lacking strength and being unprepared for a war, and the scars of the previous conflict running so deep that many wished to avert another war at all costs. Like Churchill in England, there may have been forces throughout the galaxy that wanted desperately to intervene—but the cost of intervention was instead deemed too great, and the salvation of Czechoslovakia/the Resistance fleet a lost cause.

Also, it's worth keeping in mind that for as much as Leia was begging for support, her situation was effectively hopeless. The First Order's fleet was roughly as large, if not larger than the Empire's fleet at Endor, and had the ability to track their opponents through hyperspace. As much as anyone might have wanted to help, they had to have realized that trying to save Leia would have almost certainly meant their own destruction. And at that point, it's better to sit back and build up your own forces to try and resist the First Order yourself, or otherwise meekly accept subjugation and hope the First Order is merciful.

Germany was a state. They had a large and willing industrial base of support and broad alliances. Is the FO a state? They don’t appear to be. They seem to be a faction within the politics of the republic. It’s not an invasion it’s a takeover. Which means that their power base and economic base are within the republic as well. And they are able to acquire an overwhelming military power by drawing on dissatisfaction within the republic.

If they weren’t reasonably popular (and the liberal Democrats unpopular) then why are they overwhelmingly more powerful? Who is supporting them? If the republic is broadly popular then when can they barely manage any popular resistance to an authoritarian takeover? We know the people can be mobilized because they show up to fight Palpatine.

Ferrinus
Jun 19, 2003

i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

Whenever a society is portrayed as nebulously "totalitarian" and Just Plain Evil by the liberal hegemony you can bet that they're at worst rival liberals who don't want to sell off their natural resources for cheap or at best a revolutionary workers' state.

BiggestBatman
Aug 23, 2018


The German annexation was done through political bullying and was largely bloodless. I don't think which makes comparing it to starkiller a little silly. A better comparison is the much more violent invasion of Poland, which did bring France and Britain into war.

But since starkiller gets blown up right after, you'd need to be talking about a version of ww2 where Poland manages to cripple the German army during its loss, which would almost certainly lead to even more aggressive action from France and Britain in that timeline

General Dog
Apr 26, 2008

New Year, New Me!

TFA places a lot of weight on the idea that the Republic has a fleet that’s big enough to deter aggression on the part of the First Order, but that they keep it all in the same place, which doesn’t seem to make a lot of strategic sense when they’re in a cold war with a nuclear-capable enemy.

Acebuckeye13
Nov 2, 2010

There's only one prescription for Nazism and it's 76mm HVAP





Ultra Carp

YOLOsubmarine posted:

Germany was a state. They had a large and willing industrial base of support and broad alliances. Is the FO a state? They don’t appear to be. They seem to be a faction within the politics of the republic. It’s not an invasion it’s a takeover. Which means that their power base and economic base are within the republic as well. And they are able to acquire an overwhelming military power by drawing on dissatisfaction within the republic.

If they weren’t reasonably popular (and the liberal Democrats unpopular) then why are they overwhelmingly more powerful? Who is supporting them? If the republic is broadly popular then when can they barely manage any popular resistance to an authoritarian takeover? We know the people can be mobilized because they show up to fight Palpatine.

The FO is the remnants of the Empire that fled into the Unknown Regions. They're very explicitly outside of the Republic's military and political structure, and have grown by expanding into worlds on the border regions, strip-mining them for resources, and conscripting children into the military. (This is pretty much all stated in the films). Outside of the films, it's said that the Republic deliberately demilitarized after the Empire was defeated, and resisted remilitarizing out of fear of provoking the First Order outside of some factions secretly supporting the paramilitary Resistance.

it's very weird though to assert that the Republic lost because they weren't very popular, as though how popular a government is has anything to do with how successful they are militarily.

Acebuckeye13
Nov 2, 2010

There's only one prescription for Nazism and it's 76mm HVAP





Ultra Carp

General Dog posted:

TFA places a lot of weight on the idea that the Republic has a fleet that’s big enough to deter aggression on the part of the First Order, but that they keep it all in the same place, which doesn’t seem to make a lot of strategic sense when they’re in a cold war with a nuclear-capable enemy.

the sequels are in general extremely dumb, particularly when it comes to anything approaching strategy or tactics

General Dog
Apr 26, 2008

New Year, New Me!

Acebuckeye13 posted:

it's very weird though to assert that the Republic lost because they weren't very popular, as though how popular a government is has anything to do with how successful they are militarily.

The strongest evidence that the Republic is unpopular is that we never see a soul speak a good word about it or verbally mourn its loss across the three movies, which includes a lot of time spent with people who were central to its founding.

YOLOsubmarine
Oct 19, 2004

When asked which Pokemon he evolved into, Kamara pauses.

"Motherfucking, what's that big dragon shit? That orange motherfucker. Charizard."



Acebuckeye13 posted:

The FO is the remnants of the Empire that fled into the Unknown Regions. They're very explicitly outside of the Republic's military and political structure, and have grown by expanding into worlds on the border regions, strip-mining them for resources, and conscripting children into the military. (This is pretty much all stated in the films). Outside of the films, it's said that the Republic deliberately demilitarized after the Empire was defeated, and resisted remilitarizing out of fear of provoking the First Order outside of some factions secretly supporting the paramilitary Resistance.

it's very weird though to assert that the Republic lost because they weren't very popular, as though how popular a government is has anything to do with how successful they are militarily.

None of this is actually in the movies.

If the FO is an external threat then why is the resistance being funded under the table to oppose them? Nation states with militaries don’t need plausible deniability when it comes to repelling invasions. The resistance only makes sense as a friekorps style militia carrying out proxy battles against political opponents.

Acebuckeye13
Nov 2, 2010

There's only one prescription for Nazism and it's 76mm HVAP





Ultra Carp

YOLOsubmarine posted:

None of this is actually in the movies.

If the FO is an external threat then why is the resistance being funded under the table to oppose them? Nation states with militaries don’t need plausible deniability when it comes to repelling invasions. The resistance only makes sense as a friekorps style militia carrying out proxy battles against political opponents.

my dude have you never heard of the Flying Tigers

Acebuckeye13
Nov 2, 2010

There's only one prescription for Nazism and it's 76mm HVAP





Ultra Carp

countries deciding "well we don't want all out war but we'll happily throw guns and men under the table at a group who's already fighting them with plausible deniability" goes back literal centuries. Russia is doing it in Ukraine right now!

YOLOsubmarine
Oct 19, 2004

When asked which Pokemon he evolved into, Kamara pauses.

"Motherfucking, what's that big dragon shit? That orange motherfucker. Charizard."



So we’ve moved on from the FO are Nazis to the FO are the USSR and we’re in a Cold War? If the resistance are there to fight a proxy war then on whose behalf are the ostensibly fighting? The Flying Tigers were in theory defending China. Who is the resistance nominally defending if not the republic? Who is the third party in this?

Assuming that we take for granted that all of these things that aren’t in the movies are true...why do they need to fight a proxy war? If going to war with the FO is so politically fraught that the republic has to hide their true intentions doesn’t that imply that the general populace does not view the FO as a threat and would rather co-exist with them?

YOLOsubmarine fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Apr 5, 2021

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Star Wars has a weird political situation where the galaxy is made up of hundreds of planetary nation-states under roughly centralized control from Coruscant. When we talk about "the New Republic", this is effectively synonymous with the galaxy itself.

Confusingly, the two dominant political parties within the New Republic are the First Order and the New Republican Party. The First Order has overwhelming popular support, but the New Republicans are evidently allowing all manner of gerrymandering and voter suppression, on top of the off-books paramilitary operations.

Acebuckeye13
Nov 2, 2010

There's only one prescription for Nazism and it's 76mm HVAP





Ultra Carp

YOLOsubmarine posted:

So we’ve moved on from the FO are Nazis to the FO are the USSR and we’re in a Cold War? If the resistance are there to fight a proxy war then on whose behalf are the ostensibly fighting? The Flying Tigers were in theory defending China. Who is the resistance nominally defending if not the republic? Who is the third party in this?

Assuming that we take for granted that all of these things that aren’t in the movies are true...why do they need to fight a proxy war? If going to war with the FO is so politically fraught that the republic has to hide their true intentions doesn’t that imply that the general populace does not view the FO as a threat and would rather co-exist with them?

there are very easy answers to all these questions and you're being deliberately obtuse.

quote:

So we’ve moved on from the FO are Nazis to the FO are the USSR and we’re in a Cold War?

The FO can represent multiple things, but the USSR/US don't have a monopoly on Cold Wars. See: India/Pakistan, or Iran/Saudi Arabia. (And for the record, a "cold war" between the FO and NR is what's explicitly described outside the films, as early as the pre-release marketing for TFA IIRC)

quote:

If the resistance are there to fight a proxy war then on whose behalf are the ostensibly fighting? The Flying Tigers were in theory defending China. Who is the resistance nominally defending if not the republic? Who is the third party in this?

There doesn't need to be a third party. Pakistan for example has supported numerous militant groups for years as part of its long-running conflict with India, several of which have directly attacked the Indian military or even Indian civilians (Such as the 2008 Mumbai attacks)

quote:

Assuming that we take for granted that all of these things that aren’t in the movies are true...why do they need to fight a proxy war? If going to war with the FO is so politically fraught that the republic has to hide their true intentions doesn’t that imply that the general populace does not view the FO as a threat and would rather co-exist with them?

"Not being willing to go to war" and "views the opponent as a threat" are not mutually exclusive positions. As mentioned above, Pakistan and India hate each other and have even sponsored terrorist attacks against each other, but all-out war would be so destructive and ruinous that neither side (As of yet) has been willing to do so.

Back during the 1930s, there were some politicians who opposed rearmament over fears that it would provoke conflict with the growing Nazi Germany. It's fairly straightforward to assume that the Republic as a whole was unwilling to go into direct conflict with the FO, much as France was unwilling to go to war against Germany in 1937-38. The Resistance was thus created and funded as an organization that could more directly confront the First Order without the New Republic entering into all-out war, and then became the only sizeable military resistance to the FO when the Republic government was wiped out by the decapitation strike.

YOLOsubmarine
Oct 19, 2004

When asked which Pokemon he evolved into, Kamara pauses.

"Motherfucking, what's that big dragon shit? That orange motherfucker. Charizard."



Finn wants to get to the outer rim to escape the FO, which seems like a weird choice if the FO is coming from outside the galaxy and raiding border worlds.

General Dog
Apr 26, 2008

New Year, New Me!

The First Order is Taiwan with North Korea’s swag

Acebuckeye13
Nov 2, 2010

There's only one prescription for Nazism and it's 76mm HVAP





Ultra Carp

YOLOsubmarine posted:

Finn wants to get to the outer rim to escape the FO, which seems like a weird choice if the FO is coming from outside the galaxy and raiding border worlds.

The Unknown Regions are in the Star Wars galaxy, they're just the (mostly) unexplored part of it:



General Dog posted:

The First Order is Taiwan with North Korea’s swag

...This comparison works surprisingly well

Blood Boils
Dec 27, 2006

Its not an S, on my planet it means QUIPS


Hair Elf

Which restaurant made that map, I will never bow to dictates of the burger king

Kart Barfunkel
Nov 10, 2009



What would keep explorers from expanding to almost 50% of the ‘left’ side of the galaxy and not the ‘right’?

YOLOsubmarine
Oct 19, 2004

When asked which Pokemon he evolved into, Kamara pauses.

"Motherfucking, what's that big dragon shit? That orange motherfucker. Charizard."




There are good reason why these things happen in the real world, but Star Wars doesn’t exist in the real world. We don’t have a single one world Republican government and it’s literally impossible to imagine a rogue state somehow becoming the most powerful military entity in the world without anyone noticing.

Saying “ah, well it’s like India and Pakistan” elides a whole lot about why India and Pakistan are that way including partition, the Cold War, and substantial entanglement with other countries. If the world was just India and Pakistan and India was taking over Pakistani territory and conscripting their populace into the army and harvesting their natural resources I think we’d probably have a hot war.

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012



The films make reference to planets that were not part of the former (but not capital-O Old) Republic such as Kamino, and to planets that at least tried to remain independent of the Empire such as Bespin. Nothing about the sequel-era Republic's membership is attested in the films proper that I can recall, except that Exegol is uncharted. The First Order operates in a region of space where they are able to use military force to expropriate materiel and conscript troops with impunity, suggesting that their fleet is operating either outside of the Republic's territory or without its knowledge.

Here's what I want to know: was Snoke a Palpatinist? Not openly, I suspect.

sponges
Sep 14, 2011



A lot of this confusion could have been cleared up with a scene in the Senate of the republic

General Dog
Apr 26, 2008

New Year, New Me!

sponges posted:

A lot of this confusion could have been cleared up with a scene in the Senate of the republic

But that would be boring, you don’t want the audience to be bored do you?

The United States
Jul 18, 2004

Please grab the extinguisher


Melman v2

sponges posted:

A lot of this confusion could have been cleared up with a scene in the Senate of the republic
https://i.imgur.com/3YRLDTU.mp4

Vinylshadow
Mar 20, 2017


Kart Barfunkel posted:

What would keep explorers from expanding to almost 50% of the ‘left’ side of the galaxy and not the ‘right’?

Just goes to show how Right-Wing the Galaxy Far Far Away really is

Lack of safe hyperspace routes and interest are the most likely candidates, although ol' Sheev made some inroads with the help of Thrawn, which helped the Imperial Remnant flee there to become the First Order

The United States
Jul 18, 2004

Please grab the extinguisher


Melman v2

Isn't Thrawn chillin' with some space whales or something?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhdsTCUybeU

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




The movies don't just neglect to but clearly actively, desperately avoid setting up any broader stakes and context.

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012



The scene in which the political circumstances of The Force Awakens were presumably established was cut.

Vinylshadow
Mar 20, 2017


Bongo Bill posted:

The scene in which the political circumstances of The Force Awakens were presumably established was cut.

It adds context to the shot of the woman watching the Starkiller lasers approach from ground level - they could've just had the city skyline slowly turn red before the planets get iced rather than a grounds-eye view (or shoot it from an angle that focuses on more than a single person)

First time I saw TFA, I wondered if that woman was important - sorta like how TLJ has the female A-Wing pilot, and ROS had the random dude that knows about the Sith

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Ghost Leviathan posted:

The movies don't just neglect to but clearly actively, desperately avoid setting up any broader stakes and context.

While folks have been saying this a lot, pure ideology is impossible. It doesn't make for a compelling story at all, obviously, but it is very possible to puzzle through what's going on.

As with the discovery that Tatooine, Jakku, and the site of Luke's cult compound are all the same planet, I've actually found that there are a lot of elegant - if counterintuitive - solutions.

The United States
Jul 18, 2004

Please grab the extinguisher


Melman v2

Bongo Bill posted:

The scene in which the political circumstances of The Force Awakens were presumably established was cut.

Vinylshadow posted:

It adds context to the shot of the woman watching the Starkiller lasers approach from ground level - they could've just had the city skyline slowly turn red before the planets get iced rather than a grounds-eye view (or shoot it from an angle that focuses on more than a single person)

First time I saw TFA, I wondered if that woman was important - sorta like how TLJ has the female A-Wing pilot, and ROS had the random dude that knows about the Sith
Wasn't there a cut scene where Leia says that all of the politicians who died on Hosnian/NotCoruscant hated her anyway?

Honestly that would have been the biggest mystery box of a movie that was entirely setting up mystery boxes.

Bootleg Trunks
Jun 12, 2020




Do you think God lives in Heaven because He, too, lives in fear of what He's created here on Earth?



Those planets are awfully close to each other. Are they actually moons of a gas giant?

Acebuckeye13
Nov 2, 2010

There's only one prescription for Nazism and it's 76mm HVAP





Ultra Carp

The United States posted:

Wasn't there a cut scene where Leia says that all of the politicians who died on Hosnian/NotCoruscant hated her anyway?

Honestly that would have been the biggest mystery box of a movie that was entirely setting up mystery boxes.

I think this is it, there's not much though:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxLbk4F1P2Q

Ingmar terdman
Jul 24, 2006



They should have just sampled leia saying "i dont care" in that vid for all her lines in ROS

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The United States
Jul 18, 2004

Please grab the extinguisher


Melman v2

Acebuckeye13 posted:

I think this is it, there's not much though:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxLbk4F1P2Q
I can't quite make out what she's saying but she definitely sounds dismissive of the senators/senate?



Ingmar terdman posted:

They should have just sampled leia saying "i dont care" in that vid for all her lines in ROS
It's a better line delivery than most of her lines in TFA too, weird they didn't keep it

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