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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The redemptive interpretation is that the movie does an incredibly bad job of expressing that Ben Solo is the true good guy and everyone else is just gaslighting him into insanity, so the ending is tragic as Luke doubles down and declares war on the kid he tried to murder. Yeah I don't disagree, I think TLJ has a lot of flaws imo caused by studio interference. There's a lot of "do as I say, not as I do" weird contradictory actions by the characters, as well as the general message of "being in a cycle of war where profiteers are selling WMDs to both sides is bad and helps nobody" that then gets walked back to the Tobias Arrested Development "but maybe it will work for us" joke. Every interesting idea that comes in the first two ST movies comes with the edges filed off and is quickly shoved back in the closet in the next or even the same movie. Again tho, I don't even understand why TLJ came up except as some epic own like "haha you like the bad movie" which seems weak coming from a thread that spent the last decade plus fighting tooth and nail to keep that exact attitude about the prequels out of it.
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Apr 20, 2021 20:06
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Sort-of, but not really. Uh, no. I have no interest in watching sixteen movies leading up to TPM's climax. It is extremely easy to draw characters in a compelling way without spending hours with them. TPM does it reasonably well in some cases, but the characters are generally not relatable or interesting. It's been argued in this thread that that's intentional. My opinion is that having unrelatable, unlikable characters is a bad choice that undermines the impact of the films. quote:But the specific complaint that not enough screen-time is devoted to Anakin’s slave friends is a new one to me. And I’ve been keeping track of these things for a while. I'm not arguing that those characters needed more screen time, I'm arguing that giving Anakin characters he can relate to as a peer wouldn be one strategy towards making him interesting as a character. quote:Anakin is a relatively minor character in Phantom Menace, in that he is ‘merely’ an extension of the Jar Jar character. Jar Jar Binks is the film’s protagonist, but ends up purposefully overshadowed from the moment Anakin is introduced. Jar Jar remains the protagonist, but Anakin does the spectacular feats of effortless violence and gets heaped with praise from all the characters - including Satan - while Jar Jar works enormously hard, laying his life on the line for a distraction, and basically just ends up impressing Boss Nass. Ok, but that's a huge problem for the film because Jar Jar is incredibly irritating and completely fails as a protagonist. quote:As I see it, Obi Wan and Anakin are friends. They're not besties or anything; they're essentially work friends who only meet in professional contexts. They're the kinds of friends who take lunch breaks together. This isn't expressed through dialogue, but rather through performance and tone. Anakin and Obi Wan are at ease together in a way that they aren't with other Jedi or strangers, but this is contrasted with how Obi Wan behaves with Dex, a much closer friend. When Obi Wan disapproves of how Anakin drives, does cool stunts, or otherwise acts recklessly, he does so in a comically exasperated way, i.e. filling a familiar straight man role in the pair, which suggests that there is a pair in the first place. This kind of friendship has layers; at the climax of RotS, Obi Wan is anguished ("We were brothers!") That's interesting! Maybe someone whose religious beliefs dissuade him from strong emotional connections gets deeply attached to the few relationships he does have, no matter how tenuous those relationships are in objective reality. I agree that Obi Wan and Anakin are intended to have a friendly relationship. But the way it's rendered on screen is such a failure that many people in this very thread have argued that their relationship is in fact not a friendship and is in fact abusive/dysfunctional. That tells me that the way the relationship is portrayed fails to do its basic job. It has nothing to do with my (non-existent) preference for "crystal clear dialogue." That may be a subjective preference, but that doesn't diminish its impact on my (and others) viewing experience. TheLoquid fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Apr 20, 2021 |
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Apr 20, 2021 20:10
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2house2fly posted:No it doesn't, he takes a tour of the cloning facility and then they idly mention "the clones are all based off an assassin who lives here" and Obi-Wan's ears suddenly perk up and he wants to meet the assassin. Then he fights the assassin and chases him to Geonosis, where he finds out who hired the assassin and why That's true, but the joke wouldn't work as well if I had been paying attention to the events of the movie.
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Apr 20, 2021 20:16
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TheLoquid posted:Ok, but that's a huge problem for the film because Jar Jar is incredibly irritating and completely fails as a protagonist.. What does it mean to fail as a protagonist? He just is the protagonist. It’s a descriptive term it doesn’t have a success or failure condition
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Apr 20, 2021 20:27
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DeimosRising posted:What does it mean to fail as a protagonist? He just is the protagonist. It’s a descriptive term it doesn’t have a success or failure condition This is an obtuse way to approach the discussion. Protagonists don't have to fit a specific mold, but there's a reason the vast majority of stories work to make their protagonist interesting, relatable, likeable, or compelling. Jar Jar is literally none of those things, and if your position is that he is the protagonist of the story, then that is a major problem for the story.
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Apr 20, 2021 20:37
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TheLoquid posted:I agree that Obi Wan and Anakin are intended to have a friendly relationship. But the way it's rendered on screen is such a failure that many people in this very thread have argued that their relationship is in fact not a friendship and is in fact abusive/dysfunctional. That tells me that the way the relationship is portrayed fails to do its basic job. It has nothing to do with my (non-existent) preference for "crystal clear dialogue." That may be a subjective preference, but that doesn't diminish its impact on my (and others) viewing experience. Robot Style posted:That's true, but the joke wouldn't work as well if I had been paying attention to the events of the movie. 
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Apr 20, 2021 20:39
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TheLoquid posted:This is an obtuse way to approach the discussion. Protagonists don't have to fit a specific mold, but there's a reason the vast majority of stories work to make their protagonist interesting, relatable, likeable, or compelling. Jar Jar is literally none of those things, and if your position is that he is the protagonist of the story, then that is a major problem for the story. Your definition of “fails as a protagonist” is “I don’t like him”? I like jar jar. I think he’s interesting, and relatable. Man if only there were a way to talk about things that didn’t mask your subjective reactions as objective descriptions of how stories are “supposed” or intended to be
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Apr 20, 2021 20:48
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Anakin says that Obi-Wan is the closest thing he has to a father. He loves and admires him, but also chafes against the authority he exerts, and sometimes imagines him to be jealous of his talent. Obi-Wan sees him as a brother, a peer in need of teaching rather than a subordinate or ward. They go on adventures together and are comfortable and casual around each other. The tragedy in their relationship hinges on that mismatch. Their shared adventures are alluded to on-screen, and some examples of what they were like are shown. If you wish to see more of them, you can elsewhere - but know that you would be doing this because they are fun to watch, not because they are necessary for understanding the characters.
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Apr 20, 2021 20:52
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Kids love Jar Jar. He’s very popular. Not that that is a requirement for protagonists
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Apr 20, 2021 20:53
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What is Jar Jar's sith name?
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Apr 20, 2021 20:58
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2house2fly posted:How many movies do you watch where two characters bicker all the time and complain about the other when they aren't around, and think "the film is portraying a friendship" No friends bicker or complain about each other, this is true. e: I do think it's extremely funny that some people here are telling me that I'm dumb for thinking that Obi Wan and Anakin are friends, while others are telling me that I'm dumb because they think I need crystal clear dialogue to spell out that Anakin and Obi Wan are friends. The problem is that the movies, are not good. quote:Your definition of “fails as a protagonist” is “I don’t like him”? I like jar jar. I think he’s interesting, and relatable. Man if only there were a way to talk about things that didn’t mask your subjective reactions as objective descriptions of how stories are “supposed” or intended to be The subjective reaction of the vast majority of the film's audience find Jar Jar annoying to the point that he was basically written out of subsequent films. And I don't know why you're hung up on this subjective/objective distinction - I subjectively don't like TPM, largely because I subjectively think the characters are extremely boring and the plot is not very interesting. When did that become an inadequate reason for disliking a piece of art? VVV and yet despite the fact that Jar Jar does all these things that make him a good protagonist, he still sucked so badly that he was written out of future films. TheLoquid fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Apr 20, 2021 |
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Apr 20, 2021 21:05
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TheLoquid posted:This is an obtuse way to approach the discussion. Protagonists don't have to fit a specific mold, but there's a reason the vast majority of stories work to make their protagonist interesting, relatable, likeable, or compelling. Jar Jar is literally none of those things, and if your position is that he is the protagonist of the story, then that is a major problem for the story. Jar Jar is interesting. He's doing low-key physical comedy in nearly all of his scenes, he concisely expresses a strong character arc, and he has an unforgettable aesthetic. Jar Jar is relatable. He's the outspoken outside perspective into all this highfalutin Jedi nonsense, he emotes strongly where every other character is reserved or pensive, and he's unlucky and overwhelmed but tries his best. Jar Jar is likeable. Although diegetically irritating due to his clumsiness, he is kind, loyal, honest, and sticks his own neck out to help others without any thought of a reward. Jar Jar is compelling. He's an outcast who proves his worth worth in the company of mighty warriors, makes himself a bridge between two estranged peoples, and returns to be a celebrated hero.
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Apr 20, 2021 21:07
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The United States posted:What is Jar Jar's sith name? Darth Insufferus
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Apr 20, 2021 21:16
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euphronius posted:Kids love Jar Jar. He’s very popular. Not that that is a requirement for protagonists hosed up that you would expose little kids to a movie about the tendency of liberal democracies to slide into fascism and an abusive and manipulative order of war criminals disguised as heroes.
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Apr 20, 2021 21:18
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TheLoquid posted:hosed up that you would expose little kids to a movie about the tendency of liberal democracies to slide into fascism and an abusive and manipulative order of war criminals disguised as heroes. Why is that hosed up?
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Apr 20, 2021 21:19
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Most kids wrongly see the Jedi as aspirational heroes rather than abusive monsters
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Apr 20, 2021 21:23
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teagone posted:Darth Insufferus you're really loving up the naming convention here
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Apr 20, 2021 21:26
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Individual Jedi Knights are strong, brave, principled, respected, autonomous do-gooders, who become that way through a process that resembles school. The Jedi Order is an institution that has strayed from its principles and positioned itself as the enforcer of a systemically unjust order. Making sense of a world in which both of those things can be true is a skill that many children intuitively feel a need to practice through imaginative play, because they can see it reflected in reality.
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Apr 20, 2021 21:29
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Mechafunkzilla posted:you're really loving up the naming convention here yeah, it'd be Darth Sufferable
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Apr 20, 2021 21:30
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TheLoquid posted:Most kids wrongly see the Jedi as aspirational heroes rather than abusive monsters 
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Apr 20, 2021 21:30
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Bill Clinton and George W Bush were the liberal leaders at the time in the real world so I don’t know how Star Wars was any more cynical.
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Apr 20, 2021 21:32
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Apr 20, 2021 21:37
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TheLoquid posted:No friends bicker or complain about each other, this is true. it depends on the definition of "friend". Anakin and Obi-Wan are "friends from work" like the Avengers, a group of people who had to be manipulated into acting as a team in their first movie because they couldn't get along. Obi-Wan and Anakin spend a lot of time together, and they probably have strong feelings for each other due to the circumstances under which they came together, but I wouldn't expect them to hang out much in their personal time. Anakin wants to hang out with classy people like Padme, and Obi-Wan wants to hang out with bounty hunter scum like Dex. The context for people talking about them as friends is usually Obi-Wan in episode 4 smiling in a reminiscing way while saying "he was a good friend". That's the same scene where he lies to Luke about who his father was, of course.
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Apr 20, 2021 21:39
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^We have no reason to believe that Obi Wan was lying about considering Anakin a good friend. He also clearly believes that Anakin is spiritually dead, and so divides Anakin into pre-fall Anakin and post-fall Darth Vader. The fact that he misleads Luke about the possibility of redemption doesn't mean he was wrong about Anakin being a great pilot and a good friend etc. And indeed, the prequels take pains to show that Anakin is indeed idealistic, a Jedi Knight, a great pilot, a cunning warrior, and a good friend. Bongo Bill posted:Individual Jedi Knights are strong, brave, principled, respected, autonomous do-gooders, who become that way through a process that resembles school. The Jedi Order is an institution that has strayed from its principles and positioned itself as the enforcer of a systemically unjust order. Ah, that explains why the films portray the collapse of the Jedi order with such ambiguity. TheLoquid fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Apr 20, 2021 |
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Apr 20, 2021 21:42
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Guy A. Person posted:Yeah I don't disagree, I think TLJ has a lot of flaws imo caused by studio interference. There's a lot of "do as I say, not as I do" weird contradictory actions by the characters, as well as the general message of "being in a cycle of war where profiteers are selling WMDs to both sides is bad and helps nobody" that then gets walked back to the Tobias Arrested Development "but maybe it will work for us" joke. Every interesting idea that comes in the first two ST movies comes with the edges filed off and is quickly shoved back in the closet in the next or even the same movie. I guess you're quoting me here. The point is that the OP was struggling with understanding the prequels and was suggesting that the film was attempting to portray friendship between characters, but somehow failed. This seemed consistent with the fact that he was defending TLJ, which is a movie that is such an unholy contradiction of ideas that every single viewer gets to just make up their own head canon and there's no shared understanding of what the film is about (unlike the prequels which have pretty clear pro and anti partisans). TLJ is great if you have literacy issues because you can just describe all kinds of themes and motives and characterization, and there's enough unintentional ambiguity in the film that a case can be made for whatever point you're trying to make. Unlike the prequels, where George's meaning is made very clear, even if it's presented in ways that are sometimes destabilizing or murky. TLJ is an accidental inkblot, essentially.
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Apr 20, 2021 21:57
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The films depict it as sad when all the Jedi are killed, but also depict it as a moral failure when the Jedi go to war. There is indeed ambiguity there. Jedi characters are depicted sympathetically as having good intentions, but they are also shown obstructing and antagonizing the protagonist and upholding injustice through their actions; later, their downfall both proceeds directly from specific unethical choices they made for bad reasons, and also clears the way for the triumph of pure evil embodied in their ancient enemy. Kids demonstrably love it.
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Apr 20, 2021 21:59
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Ani + Obi shouldn't even be considered friends from work, they've never had voluntary employment. They're warrior monks who were recruited as children! If you want comparable relationships you need to look at soldiers and clergy
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Apr 20, 2021 21:59
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Blood Boils posted:Ani + Obi shouldn't even be considered friends from work, they've never had voluntary employment. They're warrior monks who were recruited as children! Yeah, it kinda reminds me of the two Jesuit missionaries in Silence.
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Apr 20, 2021 22:00
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TLJ is actually extremely easy to understand and has straightforward messages about hope and self-sacrifice and how we have to learn from the past. I'm baffled that anyone who talks about film literacy would have a hard time parsing it.
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Apr 20, 2021 22:05
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Jewmanji posted:TLJ is great if you have literacy issues lol oh yeah okay I see this is reasonable, thanks for the explanation! 
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Apr 20, 2021 22:05
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TheLoquid posted:TLJ is actually extremely easy to understand and has straightforward messages about hope and self-sacrifice and how we have to learn from the past.
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Apr 20, 2021 22:20
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Whatever
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Apr 20, 2021 22:21
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I was 11 when TPM came out, 14 for AotC and 17 for RotS. I understood the message easily, though not necessarily as explicitly as I can explain today. Kids aren't as dumb as people think, and the idea that the Jedi Order had strayed from what it should be is frankly easy to understand and not subtle at all. The relationship between Obi-Wan and Anakin is maybe a bt more complex but any kid who has a big brother (or IS a big brother, like me) can get it.
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Apr 20, 2021 22:24
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TLJ is the best Star Wars movie. Thanks for listening.
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Apr 20, 2021 22:56
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TheLoquid posted:TLJ is actually extremely easy to understand and has straightforward messages about hope and self-sacrifice and how we have to learn from the past. I'm baffled that anyone who talks about film literacy would have a hard time parsing it. Can you elaborate on what you think the movie's message is wrt learning from the past specifically- just that we should? I have a similar question about what you think the movie says about self-sacrifice but it's been a little done to death in ITT so we don't have to go there
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Apr 20, 2021 23:06
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I liked when Ben put the lightsaber through that one guard's eye, and when Yoda showed up.
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Apr 20, 2021 23:07
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Yeah, that you can't run from the past or ignore it/destroy it. The only way to move forward is to accept failure and learn from it. Again, it's really not complicated. ^^It was dope when Holdo flew the cruiser through the dreadnaught and blew it up. VV It's a youtube video, but I thought this one was good https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2cBTLsWiDg TheLoquid fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Apr 20, 2021 |
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Apr 20, 2021 23:08
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Is there any good writing on The Last Jedi? It’s a movie that I think a lot of people did sincerely connect with, and while it doesn’t really work for me I would be curious to read a well thought out case for it.
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Apr 20, 2021 23:13
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No Mods No Masters posted:Can you elaborate on what you think the movie's message is wrt learning from the past specifically- just that we should? I have a similar question about what you think the movie says about self-sacrifice but it's been a little done to death in ITT so we don't have to go there https://www.ign.com/articles/2018/06/26/mark-hamill-on-the-weirdly-tragic-trajectory-of-luke-skywalker "The more you look at it, the more this Hero’s Journey has turned into a tragedy - and that’s exactly what Hamill drew on: “It is tragic. I'm not a method actor, but one of the techniques a method actor will use is to try and use real-life experiences to relate to whatever fictional scenario he's involved in. The only thing I could think of, given the screenplay that I read, was that I was of the Beatles generation - ‘All You Need Is Love’, ‘peace and love’. “I thought at that time, when I was a teenager: ‘By the time we get in power, there will be no more war, there will be no racial discrimination, and pot will be legal.’ So I'm one for three. When you think about it, [my generation is] a failure. The world is unquestionably worse now than it was then.” There’s definitely some questioning to be done about whether that’s unquestionable, but rewatching The Last Jedi knowing this is Hamill’s feeling lends the role extra pathos. ‘Luke as horrified baby boomer’ not only makes his retreat from a disappointing world (well, galaxy) more understandable, but helps bring his bittersweet last decision into focus."
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Apr 20, 2021 23:23
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TheLoquid posted:Yeah, that you can't run from the past or ignore it/destroy it. The only way to move forward is to accept failure and learn from it. Again, it's really not complicated. You know, I don't totally disagree but I think you are giving the weak version of the thesis. I would say the movie is really about a wholesale embrace of the past- allowing the past to be mythologized, putting aside anything that might keep the past from being mythologized. I would say a genuine process of learning from the past would involve some kind of dialectic where you refuse the bad things and take the good, but there is really nothing about the past rejected in the movie.
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Apr 20, 2021 23:25
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