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Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003
Lucas gets unending grief about his inability to write dialogue but I contend that “we are the spark that will light the fire that will burn the first order down” is the worst line in all 9 movies (I only RoS once so maybe there’s something worse in there but I’ll never know)

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Vinylshadow
Mar 20, 2017

The United States posted:

What is Jar Jar's sith name?

Darth Darth Binks

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN

TheLoquid posted:

This is an obtuse way to approach the discussion. Protagonists don't have to fit a specific mold, but there's a reason the vast majority of stories work to make their protagonist interesting, relatable, likeable, or compelling. Jar Jar is literally none of those things, and if your position is that he is the protagonist of the story, then that is a major problem for the story.

If a good protagonist just needs to be interesting/compelling, then Jar Jar is objectively that.

Star Wars fans have been obsessed with Jar Jar for over two decades. When Jar Jar steps in the poo poo, it’s like the Earth is shattered and the walls of heaven crumble down upon us.

You are simply defining a “good protagonist” as one you might have a beer with or something. Jar Jar is god.

SolarFire2
Oct 16, 2001

"You're awefully cute, but unfortunately for you, you're made of meat." - Meat And Sarcasm Guy!

No Mods No Masters posted:

Can you elaborate on what you think the movie's message is wrt learning from the past specifically- just that we should? I have a similar question about what you think the movie says about self-sacrifice but it's been a little done to death in ITT so we don't have to go there

Self sacrifice is good. Except when it's bad.

General Dog
Apr 26, 2008

Everybody's working for the weekend

SolarFire2 posted:

Self sacrifice is good. Except when it's bad.

Old people aren’t always right, but they’re always righter than you.

Shiroc
May 16, 2009

Sorry I'm late
I feel like it is hard to tell if Jar Jar really got 'written out' of Episode 2 and 3. He has a big dialogue scene with Anakin at the start where he gives him insight and opinions on how Padme is really feeling, since he knows her better. Then is the one who gets the pivotal scene to empower Palpatine.

His arc was basically done at the end of Episode 1. Episode 2 shows how the outsider hero gets co-opted by the system to serve its interests. Then Episode 3 has him present but irrelevant other than to give gravitas and look sad at big moments. He's basically space John Lewis.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN

SolarFire2 posted:

Self sacrifice is good. Except when it's bad.

General Dog posted:

Old people aren’t always right, but they’re always righter than you.

The specific message, poorly conveyed due to the bad writing, is that only sacrifices endorsed by the Resistance leadership (i.e. Leia) are good.

Leia specifically states this when she says Rose’s sister was a hero without a leader.

Of course she was actually led by Poe, but Poe was not officially leader.

Yea, it’s dumb.

cuntman.net
Mar 1, 2013

i find jar jar to be the most relatable character because i commit social faux pas and step in poop

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005

Execute order 666

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005

Also Jar Jars sith name is Darth Sipid

Asgerd
May 6, 2012

I worked up a powerful loneliness in my massive bed, in the massive dark.
Grimey Drawer

General Dog posted:

Is there any good writing on The Last Jedi?

I don’t know, but there certainly wasn’t any good writing in it!

:stat::wal:

General Dog
Apr 26, 2008

Everybody's working for the weekend
Darth Ignoramus

Kart Barfunkel
Nov 10, 2009


Darth Kalumzi

”You were banished because you were clumsy?”
“Yousa mighten be saying that...”

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

McCloud posted:

Also Jar Jars sith name is Darth Sipid

No, that's mine.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003

cuntman.net posted:

i find jar jar to be the most relatable character because i commit social faux pas and step in poop

I legitimately crashed my boss's hayblibber once :(

Horizon Burning
Oct 23, 2019
:discourse:
oh, robot style, thanks for that huge post on TPM's climax - it was really cool and put into words what i'd had on the tip of my tongue.

Ingmar terdman
Jul 24, 2006

Robot Style posted:

Unfortunately, the prequels just weren't planned out very well. Lucas didn't bother to establish Anakin and Obi-Wan getting to know each other in Episode I, since he thought the next movie would take care of it, but then the next movie turned out to be about Anakin and Padme's relationship, while Obi-Wan was sidelined with the pointless assassination investigation that just gets ignored once he discovers the clones.
Episode III tried to hastily retcon a friendship into the first act of the movie, but because the first two movies are so disconnected, it just kind of comes out of nowhere. It also kind of hurts that Episode III completely drops all the plot threads set up by Episode II (like the aforementioned assassination, and the origin of the clones).

The whole thing just needed someone in charge of keeping a consistent story across the trilogy, because this slapdash approach of not knowing where your story is going in the next movie really doesn't work.

Lol well done

euphronius
Feb 18, 2009

Jewmanji posted:

Lucas gets unending grief about his inability to write dialogue but I contend that “we are the spark that will light the fire that will burn the first order down” is the worst line in all 9 movies (I only RoS once so maybe there’s something worse in there but I’ll never know)

I was really impressed with Derns ability to say the line sincerely

Blood Boils
Dec 27, 2006

Its not an S, on my planet it means QUIPS

"What are midicolorians you ask? Well, I mean like, what AREN'T midiclorians"

Halloween Jack
Sep 12, 2003

La morte non ha sesso
Sheev Page.

sponges
Sep 15, 2011

Star Wars has been getting violated for decades now. I miss the old days. When it was three movies people enjoyed. Times were simpler then. It’s been nothing but dreck since 1999.

I’m sorry Star Wars. We didn’t deserve you.

euphronius
Feb 18, 2009

You can still enjoy Star Wars. It’s not too late !

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

You can enjoy any combination of Star Wars movies that you feel is appropriate for your own tastes and proclivities.

Blood Boils
Dec 27, 2006

Its not an S, on my planet it means QUIPS
Even back then there were people who didn't enjoy them, Siskel&Ebert had to fight them

Plenty of OG fans weren't down with return of the Jedi

euphronius
Feb 18, 2009

Yeah If you think Lucas and the PT sucks a lot of that style is in ROTJ. Imho

sponges
Sep 15, 2011

Bongo Bill posted:

You can enjoy any combination of Star Wars movies that you feel is appropriate for your own tastes and proclivities.

I need to find the elusive “only likes the Sequels” Star Wars fan. They must exist.

euphronius
Feb 18, 2009

My wife only likes the sequels

teagone
Jun 10, 2003

That was pretty intense, huh?

I only really like stuff with Ahsoka, The Last Jedi, the Tartakovsky Clone Wars shorts, the OT, the Jedi Knight games, the majority of The Mandalorian, and the Doctor Aphra comics. That is the extent of my personal Star Wars fandom. I'm currently enjoying my Fallen Order playthrough, so I might add that to the list.

[edit] I also like BB-8 I guess. BD-1 might be my favorite droid though. It's like a little pupper droid :3:

teagone fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Apr 21, 2021

Robot Style
Jul 5, 2009

Star Wars was the original MCU:

The New York Times posted:

The Empire Strikes Back is not a truly terrible movie. It’s a nice movie. It’s not, by any means, as nice as Star Wars. It’s not as fresh and funny and surprising and witty, but it is nice and inoffensive and, in a way that no one associated with it need be ashamed of, it’s also silly. Attending to it is a lot like reading the middle of a comic book. It is amusing in fitful patches but you’re likely to find more beauty, suspense, discipline, craft and art when watching a New York harbor pilot bring the Queen Elizabeth 2 into her Hudson River berth, which is what The Empire Strikes Back most reminds me of. It’s a big, expensive, time-consuming, essentially mechanical operation. The Empire Strikes Back is about as personal as a Christmas card from a bank.

The REAL Goobusters
Apr 25, 2008

euphronius posted:

Yeah If you think Lucas and the PT sucks a lot of that style is in ROTJ. Imho

It’s also on a New hope. Lots of still, wide frame shots. He’s copying his fav directors like Kurosawa!

Ingmar terdman
Jul 24, 2006

My disney era trilogy is the final arc of the new Clone Wars, season 1 of the puppet show, and Last Jedi. The only thing coming up that interests me is the Obi-fun Ka-show-bi, but I'm sure the rest of it will at least be watchable once

ungulateman
Apr 18, 2012

pretentious fuckwit who isn't half as literate or insightful or clever as he thinks he is
the 15 or so minutes of a new hope after the space battle and before luke shows up is genuinely completely different from any other Star War in a weird, good way

Assepoester
Jul 18, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 11 years!
Melman v2

sponges posted:

Star Wars has been getting violated for decades now. I miss the old days. When it was three movies people enjoyed. Times were simpler then. It’s been nothing but dreck since 1999.

I’m sorry Star Wars. We didn’t deserve you.
smh

Mormon Star Wars
Aug 13, 2005
It's a minotaur race...

TheLoquid posted:


I'm not arguing that those characters needed more screen time, I'm arguing that giving Anakin characters he can relate to as a peer wouldn be one strategy towards making him interesting as a character.



I agree that Obi Wan and Anakin are intended to have a friendly relationship. But the way it's rendered on screen is such a failure that many people in this very thread have argued that their relationship is in fact not a friendship and is in fact abusive/dysfunctional. .

One of the most foundational aspects of cults is trying to separate you from your peers and family. You can see this in countless modern examples, from the wacky 1960s hippie cults to more modern and weird Molyneux alt-right stuff asking you to cut off your parents. They do this for a specific reason - if you have connections with people outside the cult, you might let doubt about the cult creep into your life.

It's fairly clear from the movies that this is the same reason that the Jedi remove Anakin from his group of friends and discourage him from talking to his mother. If he talks to people from his old life, he might start to doubt that defending slavery and prosecuting a war are wrong. Having peers and family connections would corrupt him. That he lacks them is intentional - his search for an outside connection is what drives him, but this is characterized as being a moody teenager instead of a legit response in the second prequel movie.

This is also why his "friendship" with Kenobi isn't real. Kenobi is the youth pastor of the cult who is supposed to make sure the members stay in the fold - he is just doing his job, and is a true believer, so of course he considers himself the friend of Skywalker. He wants to help him stay in the cult! But for Anakin, his role is the enforcer. You can be friendly with him, and even have a good relationship while you are a believer - but if you doubt, he is also the one that is watching you and going to report you.

Giving Anakin friends and peers and outside relationships would totally defeat the point that the Jedi Order, as it existed, was built around making sure their initiates didn't have those things. You can't brainwash someone with friends and peers, and that's why we see purposeful alienation as a feature of cults to this day.

quote:



Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, or debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).

The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (e.g., members must get permission to date, change jobs, or marry—or leaders prescribe what to wear, where to live, whether to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).

The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s), and its members (e.g., the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).

The group has a polarized, us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.

The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders, or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).

The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (e.g., lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).

The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in order to influence and control members. Often this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.

Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.

Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.

Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave—or even consider leaving—the group.


This is very interesting if you have grown up in a cult like environment. Anakin as a kid who is basically indoctrinated and forced to hang out with his youth pastor is definitely relatable to a lot of people.

Mormon Star Wars fucked around with this message at 05:18 on Apr 21, 2021

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005

Bongo Bill posted:

No, that's mine.

No, yours is Darth Credible :3:

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

McCloud posted:

No, yours is Darth Credible :3:

I appreciate the compliment, but I feel that a self-deprecating sithsona suits me better.

Mechafunkzilla
Sep 11, 2006

If you want a vision of the future...

Vinylshadow posted:

Darth Darth Binks

this did not get the recognition it deserves so I am quoting it

ruddiger
Jun 3, 2004

Jar Jar was a good friend.

Martman
Nov 20, 2006

Jar Jar was a bullfrog, he was a good friend of mine

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SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN

sponges posted:

Star Wars has been getting violated for decades now. I miss the old days. When it was three movies people enjoyed. Times were simpler then. It’s been nothing but dreck since 1999.

I’m sorry Star Wars. We didn’t deserve you.

The worst Star Wars movie was released in 1983, and the best/last one was released in 2005.

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