Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Milky Moor posted:

It feels weird to me because wasn't Ron Howard brought on after a whole bunch of scenes had been shot? How did they not have [Crime Boss] locked down by then? Was the script just, like, Insert Character Here (See Appendix 14C)?

The entire crime boss drama was reshoots, so it looks like the whole ‘Kira gets promoted’ thing was never in the original version.

SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Apr 5, 2021

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


If they had any balls whatsoever, they’d shoot most of it with POV shots and call it Leia: Messenger of the Force.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


ungulateman posted:

blomkamp star wars would be extremely my poo poo but i feel like there's no way in hell they'd give him enough creative control to get him to agree (outside of 'okay this story is set thousands of years before anything relevant, and DON'T TALK ABOUT DROID SLAVERY')

Elysium is already Blomkamp Star Wars, just set thousands of years after Luke, in a different galaxy.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Harime Nui posted:

RWEAL Star Wars watch order (trust me on this)

-Cop Car: An Ewok Adventure
-Sicario: Episode I: The Empire Strikes Back
-Elysium: A Star Wars Story

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Preston Waters posted:

The Last Jedi was so poorly written and nonsensical that JJ Abrams stated that he wished he could have directed it after he read it.

The Last Jedi was so terrible that Lucasfilm invited the writer/director back to write and direct his own trilogy of films.

This means you don't actually care about quality but about approval.

In the other thread (why are there two threads?), I've gone over some major storytelling issues, like how the expository dialogue doesn't match what's happening onscreen and the editing is hosed in a way that's telling of massive last-minute reshoots. I've also gone into how this has led to so much confusion with audiences, as to what the moral of the story is or even just what the hell is going on in a given scene.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Wheat Loaf posted:

See, I didn't get that impression from it and I wonder if it's because while I was broadly aware of all the theorycrafting going on, I wasn't a participant in it or anything. Like I mentioned before, one of the things that sincerely surprised me after TLJ came out was discovering that all these people were apparently incredibly invested in the backstory and identity of Snoke beyond him being an evil emperor archetype, because I was just going by TFA and as I mentioned in the last few pages I honestly didn't get the impression from TFA that he was being set up as anything more than that.

It's conflating two different arguments.

One side was invested in Snoke's 'secret identity', expecting a twist where it's revealed that Snoke was Ki Adi Mundi all along and that's why we should care about him. This is because audiences were confused by why this lovely character was onscreen. They were expecting supplementary material to 'fix' the movie and explain why they wasted their time. They were saying, like, "There's no way the villain is so lovely. There must be some kind of secret twist." Ditto for Rey.

The unbearable truth is that there is no secret. They just suck.

The other side is simply noting that Snoke is vaguely described as some kind of Stalin figure. Then it turns out he's an evil Christian pope? Then he dies? I thought they were fascists? Like did Stalin "rise from the ashes" of Nazi Germany? That doesn't seem right. What is the movie saying about Stalinism? Everyone's saying Snoke's just exactly the same as The Emperor but, no, he obviously isn't.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


remusclaw posted:

I mean yeah, if you are into the novels and comics and poo poo, but in the movies, evil wizards. Maybe an occasional dark knight.

In the movies, Jedi are the 'saints' of a broader pantheistic religion. Lots of people believe in the Force, but only certain gifted mutants can be trained to be Jedi.

Sith are the same, except for Satanism.

With Snoke, we don't actually know if he is a Sith or not because the movie is bad at storytelling. Most of the evidence points to him being a Christian - a Vader-worshipper. That would make him a new type of religious leader. But it's unclear, because all he does is sit in a chair and talk. We see all these superweapons and things around him, but Snoke dismisses them as stupid. His real goal is more important, and that goal is...?

SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Aug 14, 2018

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


MarcusSA posted:

He does do a few evil force things though. So its not as though it was just a manipulator he did have some skills.
Lots of people can do psychic mutant stuff. The question is what they're doing it for.

Like, for example, Count Dooku is a feudal Lord who looks like Dracula. He supports feudalism because he sees liberalism as 'corrupt'. His goal is recruit enough Jedi to assassinate the Supreme Chancellor of the liberal Republic and take over, 'freeing' its population.

Snoke, on the other hand, is a leader of a thing that is not the good guys. He's trying to train knights (of ren) to destroy the abstract concept of hope(?).

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


remusclaw posted:

The Emperors backstory wasn't necessary to get Vader.

False: It wasn’t actually revealed that Palpatine created Vader until the end of Episode 3 - the last film in a trilogy about Palpatine’s backstory. Before that, Vader was simply Palpatine’s servant, so no backstory was necessary at that point.

(It wasn’t even revealed that Vader used to be a different person until the end of Episode 5. The second film.)

As a contrast, we’re told that Snoke created Kylo Ren, and that Kylo Ren used to be Ben Solo, partway into the first film in which both characters appear.

SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 07:30 on Aug 15, 2018

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Milkfred E. Moore posted:

You seem to think Ben Solo and Snoke also watched the prequels.

Right; the movies don’t function as standalone films. And even then, taking all 8+ films into account, the understanding of Snoke is like ‘Snoke seems to want... power?’

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


They went with the lamest possible option and made Snoke like 10% larger than a normal human.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


remusclaw posted:

If you were to make 300 earnestly, as a propaganda piece, aggrandizing everything the Spartans do and going out of your way to make Persians and disabled people into inhuman caricatures, what would you do differently?

I would hand you a DVD copy of the 1962 film, which is so effective as sincere anticommunist propaganda that you certainly won’t see anything objectionable in its naturalistic presentation.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


galagazombie posted:

Snyder by his own admission was just making a movie about awesome dudes fighting orc ninjas with a vague historical tie-in, but that does't mean unspoken ideas/biases etc. don't influence a creators work. I doubt I would call it fascist, but the movie is definitely right-leaning.

The issue here is that all of us - including Snyder - are well aware that action movies are not apolitical. We are all already aware that ‘orcs’ have racial connotations, and so on.

You are making the assumption that Snyder is inhumanly ignorant and just loves mindless killing when other interviews posted here have already confirmed that this is not the case, that Snyder is interested in how his action movie can manipulate the audience and get them to cheer for infanticide and against... satyrs?

The other issue is that you are using decontextualized quotes from promotional junkets.

Like in BVS, Batman uses a Spartan spear to torture Christ. What could it mean? Better check the ads.

SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Aug 23, 2018

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Moreover, this whole prolonged moral panic seems to be based on the unsupported assumption that 300 is converting people to fascism, when of course the reality is that 300 just tricks already-existing fascists into announcing it and looking stupid (while ‘woke’ liberals freely identify as the gold-covered imperialist).

The characters in 300 are nude because the story is so blatantly distorted that their armour has merged with their bodies. The present-day equivalent would be if you depicted Navy Seals as nude men with chameleon skin, wearing night-vision goggles (that is to say, exactly like the fuckin’ spaceman from Predator). If you see someone using oiled-strongman 300 imagery to support the troops, that person is ‘supporting’ them in the same way that they might ‘support’ their favourite anime character.

Anyway, discerning fascists are more into Black Panther and Pacific Rim.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


s.i.r.e. posted:

I completely forgot that Yoda was analogous to Rey by being the main character in OT and the films are about his story.

Yoda is the protagonist of Episode 2.

The protagonists of Episodes 7 and 8 are FN and Poe, respectively.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


bushisms.txt posted:

The nutrilogy is particularly meta textual about canon between the old and the new.

No it’s not.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN



Rey has a long succession of parental figures including Luke Skywalker’s brother-in-law, Luke Skywalker’s sister, and Luke Skywalker himself.

People really need to actually watch the movies

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


bushisms.txt posted:

Both her and kylo hold on to totems of the OT, and kylo is mad hes not the badass he's "supposed to be"(just ask the "hardcore"fans) despite following all the guidelines an uber nerd of the canon has given him.

You said that Rey is special because she’s not part of the Skywalker family.

Now you are saying that Rey is a part of the Skywalker family, and this prevents her from being special.

Your thought processes are all disorganized.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


bushisms.txt posted:

No, I said the nutrilogy is metacommenting on the canon of the franchise. You said she has three parental figures, 2 of which die atoning for doing things the old way, the other almost dies. Rey isn't a part of the family, unless you want to get into fan fiction, and the movie is saying she can still be the hero. She spends two movies waiting for the og heroes to take over because she doesn't believe she has a right to a part in the story.

Your entire ‘metacommentary’ is then based on the bizarre premise that real-world children watched Star Wars and grew horribly depressed because Luke Skywalker isn’t their real-world biological father.

And then, you believe Luke Skywalker atones - for the crime of not loving your mother IRL - by killing himself. And this is the moral of the story.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Bholder posted:

He really likes Darth Vader

Darth Vader was a real person. He’s the guy who killed the Satan-Emperor.

He’s the Christ of the Star Wars story. Kylo is a Christian crusader type.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


The “Battle of Yavin” in A New Hope is based on the UK’s Operation Chastise in World War II. Rey is playing with a homemade action figure of, essentially, an RAF pilot.

RAF pilots are mundanely real to Rey. This is a contrast to Han Solo (the legendary smuggler, who Rey believes in), and also a contrast to Luke Skywalker (the psychic-powered son of Christ who fought and won a cosmic battle against the abstract concept of evil and then mysteriously vanished, which Rey considers bullshit).

Likewise, Jyn Erso isn’t playing with a doll of a legendary Stormtrooper. It’s just a toy cop. Cops exist.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Preston Waters posted:

it kind of has been since ROTJ though. That movie has so many things that you could tear to shreds but for whatever reason nobody does.

I do. It’s a very bad movie, for many of the same reasons that the ST is bad.

Only Solo is significantly worse.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Bruceski posted:

"Weakest of the OT" even if you agree with that claim, is still pretty drat good.

Episode 6 has the worst cinematography of all 12 live-action feature films. I'm including the ewok movies here.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Blood Boils posted:

Yeah SMG, you trippin. Jedi is ugly, but not ewok movie ugly.

I can post examples later, but you’re probably basing that on the VHS quality or maybe the cheapness of the production design.

Track down an HD copy of Caravan Of Courage and it’s consistently on par with Episode 6 or better on a presumably-far-lower budget. (The d.p. was academy award-winning filmmaker John Korty.)

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Ammanas posted:

So no one's gonna point out how ludicrous it is to criticize ep 5 or 6 for their visual style or cinematography when we have every Star Wars directed by George Lucas to set a low bar lower?
Who said anything about Episode 5?

All four Lucas-directed films have great cinematography. Episode 5 is better, while Episode 6 is far worse.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Szmitten posted:

I don't remember if it was a SomethingAwful/SMG post or an article but someone did a long and wonderful breakdown comparison of the cinematography of ESB and ROJ.

https://forums.superherohype.com/threads/comparing-the-cinematography-of-the-empire-strikes-back-to-return-of-the-jedi.262012/

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Anyway, as promised, here are some semi-random shots from the first two minutes of Caravan Of Courage.
The context is that these two parents are searching for their missing daughter:



This is already more dramatic than anything in Return Of The Jedi. The director is getting an insane amount of use out of those flashlights with the fog machine.

Now here's a scene in pretty much the same setting in Episode 6. Luke is having a fairly tense conversation with his monstrous father:



I deliberately picked a scene with a laser sword, to compare against the flashlights.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


kidkissinger posted:

All I can remember from the prequels are endless flat shot/reverse shot sequences or perfectly flat tracking shots.

Challenge: name another movie in history of cinema where you noticed and/or got upset about shots followed by reverse shots.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Darth TNT posted:

Practical special effects at their finest.

That’s an optical effect, not a practical effect.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


OctoberCountry posted:

I like the painting itself, but yeah they don't even try to get the lighting right as Lando walks away.

It's a difference in technique on top of the execution. That's a bluescreen shot, and bluescreen/rear-projection work in Return Of The Jedi is kinda uniformly crap.



The harsh bluish-white 'sunlight' on Han is blatantly coming in from the opposite direction as the sunlight hitting the Death Star.

Contrast with the similar shot from Episode 1, where the lighting is certainly not naturalistic (the 'sunlight' is still technically coming from the wrong direction) but it doesn't really matter because most of the light in the scene is coming from various ambient light sources inside the cockpit.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Tomorrow's rumour: oatmeal for breakfast.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Talking about original plans is kind-of pointless, because things changed constantly.

Star Wars began as two trilogies, but suddenly exploded into three quadrilogies (because Star Wars was a massive hit and Lucas got ambitious). Each trilogy would have its own prologue film - so there would be five prequels and A New Hope would be Episode 6. That 12-film plan was only briefly considered, however, as Lucas quickly decided that the prologue films were redundant. That's how there ended up being three trilogies: the Clone Wars trilogy, the Star Wars trilogy, and an implicit ____ Wars Trilogy.

Vader was apparently always intended to die at the end of the whole thing so, with the addition of a third trilogy, they needed a new ending for Episode 6. This is why Boba Fett was invented and heavily promoted as a mini-Vader. The Star Wars trilogy was going to end with the defeat of Boba Fett, and the unnamed ____ Wars trilogy would take place 20 years later.

That's when Luke's sister (named Nellith, in early drafts) would show up. But ____ Wars was not going to be about her per se. It would be about "the character who survives [Episode 6], and his adventures". That quote from Lucas was kinda cryptic, and doesn't necessarily refer to Luke. From what we know now, it could be Vader or even Han.

Of course, all this was jettisoned before the rough draft of Episode 6's script was even written, and Star Wars ended up being just one trilogy. That's why Fett was killed so unceremoniously: with the focus back on Vader and the Emperor, Fett was redundant.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Szmitten posted:

My favourite tidbit is the idea that the film was going to either be spoken or dubbed into Japanese with subtitles to enhance the alienness.

Right - if you go back far enough, things are unrecognizable. The stuff in my post refers specifically to the plan for the series circa 1979, when Star Wars was a hit and they actually began working on the sequels.

Plot speculation is especially futile because Lucas’ outlines were obviously thematic. So while Vader was perhaps always meant to sacrifice himself and kill Palpatine, Lucas apparently toyed with the idea that Luke would kill Vader and become the new Vader in Episode 6 - literally taking Vader’s mask and assuming his identity. In other words, if you permit a little speculation, Luke would turn Evil and then battle his sister in Episode 9.

As for who Luke’s sister would be, consider how Lucas kept returning to the idea of a child raised by Wookiees/Ewoks. This includes concept art of a kid Han Solo in the prequels, and of course you have the Ewok movies. Most obviously, Leia gets adopted by the Ewoks too.

If Return Of The Jedi is a condensed version of Episodes 6, 7, 8 and 9, with Leia Organa and Nellith Skywalker being merged into one character, then isn’t the true identity of Luke’s sister ultimately Cindel?

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Hodgepodge posted:

It's kind of interesting that Nellith and Darth Luke effectively re-emerged as Rey and Kylo.

It's not just that they re-emerged. It goes back to one of my earlier points: that The Force Awakens is formally a remake of Return Of The Jedi, basically ignoring or hastily retconning everything that happens after Jabba is killed.

Since we know that Return Of The Jedi is actually four episodes hastily smushed together, it's pretty clear that the whole Jabba section is Episode 6. This segment was originally a feature-length film that would end with Han rescued, Boba Fett and/or Vader killed, and Luke turning Darth. (In the actual film, of course, Luke flirts with darkness and assassinates Jabba here.)

So, after the 20-year time jump, I speculate that Episode 7 was going to be about the rebels going on a mission to Endor and accidentally discovering Nellith living among the Ewoks. Nellith would then join the rebellion and be trained as a Jedi (by Leia?), while Darth Luke searches for his lost sister. Then you would end the _____ Wars trilogy with the same throne room battle, except with Darth Luke sacrificing himself to kill Palpatine and save Nellith.

In the Disney version, it's roughly the same thing. After Jabba dies, we jump ahead 40 years, and the rebels go on a secret mission to Tatooine. They find Rey living among the Jawas. Rey gets trained as a Jedi, we end up with the same throne room battle, etc.

So, in a weird way, Episode 9 is already done. JJ's next film is, in formal terms, Episode 11 or something.

SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Oct 22, 2018

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Sinding Johansson posted:

Would you say Maz is, thematically, a hutt then?

Well, fun fact: in the Phantom Menace script, Lucas clarifies that “Hutt” isn’t a race or species. It’s just a semi-generic term for a crime boss - one who’s part of a crime syndicate known as “The Hutts”. In that way, Maz could literally be a Hutt.

But Jabba is already, thematically, Jabba. For the ST to actually function, narratively, you need to jump directly from Empire Strikes Back to Force Awakens, maybe treating the Tatooine segment as a little interstitial short film. (Like the Boba Fett cartoon bridging A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back.)

Last Jedi does include some attempts at addressing the rest of Return Of The Jedi, but poorly - mainly through exposition.

SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Oct 23, 2018

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Angry Salami posted:

Return of the Jedi didn't happen in the ST continuity.

Specifically, it happened in the plot but not in the actual narrative, like the time Anakin fell into that nest of gundarks.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


The key lie in Lukes’s story is that he omits the part where Vader did all the work and killed the emperor, whereas Luke’s only achievement was to renounce the Jedi.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Strange Matter posted:

I think that's a little disingenuous. Luke defeated Vader in a physical confrontation, and then turned around and defeated Palpatine on the spiritual level.

Beating up Vader wasn’t a good thing - and Palpatine wasn’t actually spiritually defeated by Luke, given that he immediately reappeared as Snoke.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


I work at Disney-ILM, so I can confirm that Poe, Leia, FN, Maz, and Chewbacca will also sport slightly different clothes/accessories.

The character of Hux will sport NO accessories, and dress exactly the same.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Preston Waters posted:

who gives a flying gently caress about SMG's adderall-fueled takes

I am controversial.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply