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2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Asgerd posted:

what is the practical difference here
It's a restatement of Light Side vs Dark Side in normal people terms. In ROTJ Luke killing Vader would be evil but Vader killing the Emperor is good. What's the practical difference between one killing and another?

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2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

kidkissinger posted:

Yeah, Johnson directly replying to his Twitter mentions through TLJ was very obvious and very bad.

This is probably one case where lacking additional context helps me enjoy the movie more. All I know of what Johnson has said about the movie is "making something divisive is cooler to me than making something everyone equally thinks is kind of ok"

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

General Dog posted:

They're white men who occasionally obliquely criticize #woke marketing of franchise films.

They seem to be part of the segment of the population that had its brain shattered by The Last Jedi; the Plinkett review of the movie has a bit where, completely unprompted by the context of the movie, the guy says something like "watch out Poe, or you'll get arrested for MANSPLAINING!!!!!

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

General Dog posted:

Their TLJ content certainly isn't their best work, but the "mansplaining" thing is basically exactly the spin a lot of TLJ's most ardent supporters have used to explain that subplot, so it's not exactly a non-sequitur.

Yeah I've gathered that people who love and hate the movie are convinced it's a pro-feminist tract, which is weird because like... all the female characters' main function in the plot seems to be to cause character development in the men... doesn't it?!

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Raccooon posted:

This has probably already been pointed out a million times but wasn't Poe's big failing at the beginning was ignoring orders to not kill the dreadnaught and getting a bunch of pilots killed? An act that saved all of them as the dreadnaught would have killed them in the slow speed chase. The big opener of him being wrong to go against the authority of Leia and needs to learn from this was actually the correct thing to do.
Destroying the dreadnaught was absolutely the correct thing to do. Poe was emboldened by how correct it was, which led to his conflict with Holdo and going all-in with Finn and Rose's plan.


Lt. Danger posted:

50% of the human race are below-average intelligence......
That is a very pessimistic way of looking at it.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

PJOmega posted:


Also, coward poo poo with Chewbacca and C3PO. There can be no tragic mistakes or impossible choices by good characters.

They tried doing that one time but it didn't go down well

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

H13 posted:

I've grown to despise TLJ (after initial hype from fan service wore off). I think it really did butcher any potential that this trilogy had. The low-speed space chase was dumb, the casino world was videogame bullshit, the characters were loving painful and consistently made bad decisions that made things worse (but not in a fun, "Always Sunny in Tatooine" sorta way). However, from a story perspective, it wrote the current trilogy into a corner. The alliance was hosed, first order ruled everything, no Snoke, Rey and Ren had a confrontation that went nowhere...

How the gently caress do you write yourself out of THAT mess?

Good grief. "The good guys are underdogs bonded to each other by hardship and loyalty, two powerful characters who have a personal connection to each other are bitter enemies, and the bad guys are rife with internal chaos, fractured by rumour and mutual hatred and mistrust. There's just no way to get an interesting story out of this situation."

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

H13 posted:

- Space Fuel which has never been mentioned before
- Laser Cannons that are able to lob lasers at ships...in space where there is no gravity. Light bends in parabolic arcs. Or maybe it was launching plasma, which still wouldn't fly in a parabolic arc in a zero-gravity environment
- When a ship runs out of fuel, it would keep flying at the speed the engines died at. It wouldn't be able to increase its momentum, but it wouldn't suddenly disappear and "fall" into range of the guns.

The lasers arcing is a visual effect. It's a dumb visual effect, but it doesn't affect the plot. You may as well object to the fact that you can hear the blasts hitting the shields even though there should be no sound in the vacuum of space. As for the space fuel, the movie doesn't explicitly state that the ships are accelerating the whole time, but it's both easy to infer and explains a lot- such as why ships seem to stop when they run out (they're no longer capable of accelerating) and why the imperials don't just launch a million tie fighters at the rebels (small ships would have trouble properly engaging capital ships at ever-increasing speed)

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Quantum Shart posted:

I mean the point was to paint Poe as too up his own arse to believe in the plan, Holdo is Space Jesus and Poe is her Judas, he knows better cause don't you know who he is. His characterisation is even worse in TROS cause even though he did all that in TLS he still gives lip to Rey, he's a shitbag.

The point is that they all gently caress up! Everyone in the movie fucks up!

Poe fucks up by acting on impulse after being given bad tummyfeels by a new leader he doesn't know.
Holdo fucks up by being either too paranoid about leaks or too unconfident in her plan to tell anyone about it, fomenting distrust(no way would Poe have been able to mutiny if he was the only person upset at being out of the loop).
Finn and Rose gently caress up by failing to get the master codebreaker they need and instead bringing along some creepy guy they met in jail, and taking calls where Poe relays critical information on speakerphone with the creepy guy in the room.
Luke hosed up by reacting in fear to the darkness within Ben, and then by running off to an island to wallow in his self-loathing.
Rey fucks up by wanting to be wanted too much to realise she's being played first by Snoke and then by Kylo.
Snoke fucks up by not underestimating how much Kylo hates him and overestimating his own ability to read people's feelings.
Kylo fucks up by letting his hatred of Luke distract him from his goal of eliminating the rebels at a critical moment.

It's like in a tragedy! The good guys make bad decisions and the only reason they don't all die as a result is that the bad guys make bad decisions too.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Zoran posted:

For all that you’re trying to own people about your superior understanding of military command or whatever, the fact remains that Holdo took over command of an unfamiliar crew that appears to have been personally loyal to this hotshot starfighter commander, froze the dude out and refused to even reassure him that she did have an idea for how to protect their lives, and then faced a mutiny for it.

It's breathtakingly incompetent. And that’s not even getting into the other evidence presented within the film that Holdo's idea itself is nonsense.

One thing that bugged me is that "the Resistance" was some kind of splinter/shadow faction which, by the beginning of TLJ, consists of three capital ships and like a dozen fighters. When Holdo shows up the entire leadership has been exploded into space, which tbh calls into question the very idea of "chain of command". What is there to be "in command" of?

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Hazo posted:


- One of the hugest things in TLJ (among many) that bothered the piss out of me was the textbook Checkov’s gun of showing us Luke’s X-Wing in the water and then never using it. I was so relieved to see him lift it out.

That Chekhov's Gun was actually fired in TLJ, when Luke says "I came here to die"

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Golden idea for how they could have handled Carrie Fisher's death:

EPISODE IX: THE RISE OF SKYWALKER
General Leia Organa has died...

Tracking down opening space shot show's Leia's space coffin being ceremoniously released to the stars as some character gives a speech about her. Reason for death mysterious, but Rey sees her as a silent force ghost leading her through breadcrumb-trail plot. Big ending twist where ultimately the bad guy is defeated using knowledge Leia willingly died to communicate

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

To be fair the X-wing is also partly there as misdirection- at the end of the movie you might think "wait how did Luke get to the salt planet? Oh I guess he flew there in his X-wing". That way when Luke confronts Kylo you're not distracted by how he got there, and can focus on "gently caress yeah get his rear end"

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Shaocaholica posted:

I didn’t have any issues with the way she looked but her lines were terrible. It’s like all the footage they had was just filler junk.

‘Yes I agree’
‘I feel something is wrong’
‘I love you too’

Just loving lol they didn’t kill her in TLJ because subverting the franchise was too important.

How is "subverting the franchise" incompatible with killing Leia?

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

For some reason the Leia puppet reminds me of SMG's one-time plan to recut TFA and have Kylo speak in battle droid quotes from the prequels

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

I'm really confused about why the Emperor would even need a fleet of star destroyers. There's already a fleet of star destroyers, it's called The First Order and it rules the galaxy, and don't they all worship the old Empire or something?

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Like the Emperor's big plan should surely just be to waltz into the Supreme Leader's throne room and say "I'm back, and this is my throne now" and force lightning anyone who disagrees. Why add a whole other fleet of star destroyers and make it more complicated?!

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

General Dog posted:

I think The Last Jedi gets a bit too much credit for just attempting, but largely failing, to say something; but that praise is understandable since it came after TFA, which went out of its way to be about nothing. It mainly just irks me that it gets so much credit for being a deconstruction of the OT when the prequels did the same thing in a much less sentimental manner.

I don't even care about it being a deconstruction or subverting expectations, I like TLJ because it's cool. There's just a ton of times watching it where I said "oh hell yeah" and I found the story rewarded thinking about it and rewatching it. My favourite was the way Luke haughtily says the Force isn't about lifting rocks, only for Rey to triumphantly save the day at the end by... lifting rocks(The first time I watched it I got distracted at this bit so I missed Rey clumsily pointing this out in dialogue; Johnson doesn't write very good dialogue which frankly holds the movie back). Snoke just getting sliced in two and his top half flopping onto the floor in the background was sweet as gently caress too

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

The REAL Goobusters posted:

I think I hate the whole Rey and Kylo talking to each other through the force thing. They fought so many times in that mode that when they actually do fight at the Death Star I had no idea if Kylo was actually there or not. Just fuckin didn’t care for it

I much prefer force skype as a way for them to be forced to talk to each other without being able to fight

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

The lack of any real ideology makes even the good bits of TLJ kind of hollow. Like Rey says "tell them to stop firing on the fleet" and Kylo says "it's time to let old things die" and Rey says "please don't go this way"... what way? Why does he want to destroy the fleet? What does he want to do now that he's supreme leader? Rey just seems to intuitively understand that by usurping Snoke Kylo is evil, and joining him would make her evil too. Why?! Maybe he's going to implement space communism and give everyone a pony! You didn't ask him!

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Shaocaholica posted:

Military or civilian?

He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Tenzarin posted:

Can we talk about these movies being sexist with their violence towards women? They put captain plasma in the garbage compacter to be crushed to death and then when she lived, the main characters blew up her ship in the second movie.

This schtick is only getting more hilarious.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

The plan was to show that anyone can be a superhero. Not everything is setting up an insane epic plot twist, some things just exist to exist on their own

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

It's actually a shame that the new movie does such a bad job of following up on The Last Jedi, as it means TLJ must be viewed in isolation to get the most out of it.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Everyone remembers where they were the first time they heard the title drop: when Luke says "I will not be the last Jedi," the power of hope reaching out of the very film itself to refute the pessimism of the title. Genius. Maybe some day another Star Wars film will be made with the level of artistry displayed by Rian Johnson... nothing is impossible, after all.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

LinYutang posted:

Kylo's redemption in TROS makes Luke come off as such a petty rear end in a top hat to Kylo in his fight. It didn't even initially make sense for Luke taunt and antagonize Kylo at all, especially given Luke's infinite patience towards his father. But it now turns out that Kylo could be redeemed, it makes Luke even dumber.

Luke never said Kylo couldn't be saved, he said "I can't save him". But he also said "nobody's ever really gone," the idea presumably being that there was just too much bad blood between them for Luke to be able to do anything more worthwhile than distract Kylo by being a jerk to him while the rebels ran away

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Blast Fantasto posted:

After all of this I’d put that Rian Johnson trilogy at a pretty close to 0% chance of happening.

Just speaking personally, if I were a company and was interested in having a guy make some movies for me, one thing I would not do is make publicly disowning the previous movie that guy made for me a part of the press tour promoting the sequel to the movie the guy made for me, as well as a part of the sequel itself

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Brother Entropy posted:

imagine not wanting to see this

It sounds kind of difficult to make a movie out of. Like if the villains are little microscopic beings, how do you have the characters beat them?

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

teagone posted:

Looks exactly like Snoke, I see it now.





It does look like a bulbous-headed alien. Maybe they were trying to evoke "grey aliens" or something, but I can totally see them throwing that in as a hint that Snoke is from some ancient race with a primal connection to the Force or what have you

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

It's so loving insane that someone in a writer's room brainstorm said "what about a million billion star destroyers with death star lasers on each one" and instead of killing that person as politely as possible everyone else present just nodded thoughtfully

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

IMAGINE deciding to use hosed up CGI reanimation to have Leia in the movie. It must have been a corporate mandate or something. Remember when they specifically said they wouldn't CGI her? Or am I crazy?

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Raccooon posted:

its official the prequels are superior to the sequels. While The Last Jedi still best movie of either trilogy.

CONGREGATION: And also with you.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

moist turtleneck posted:

Maz didn't feel like the same character in this one compared to the other movies

Felt really low energy and that was before she explained that Leia was gonna kill herself

Wait why is Maz giving out medals? Isn't she like a bartender/black market something gunfighter hacker thing?

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

TIN0 posted:

Remember the cave of mirror of reflections in TLJ. My theory is the original script called for the reflections hint at her parentage (with either Jedi linerage or Sith linerage). But Rian Johnson threw that out and turned Rey's background into a "low born" "commoner".

But JJ did another 180 on that concept and now the mirror cave subplot is pointless.

Was there an original script? I thought he wrote the whole thing himself?

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Onmi posted:

Depends, there was an original treatment. Treatments aren't scripts (They're more like outlines with plot beats and an act structure along with characters) but regardless Rian tossed it all aside and simply said JJ didn't give him anything, which JJ was like "Yes I did." Just in case these films being a glorified Wookiepedia edit war wasn't clear enough.

Like... So George either did a treatment or at least presented an outline for an ST. JJ threw that all out and did TFA, he then a did a treatment for 8 and 9 and left, Rian came in, discarded the treatments, and did TLJ in one or two drafts. Then whoever was scheduled for third, wrote a script or a treatment, got fired and JJ came back.

The production issues for the ST are hilarious and we'll never get those Making Of books.
kind of a dick move to say he wasn't given anything, he could just say he wanted to do his own thing

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

The dice don't really mean anything, which both makes them kind of sad as the only thing left of Han, and also makes it probably ok that Luke gives a force projection of them to Leia that dissolves right after he does

Onmi posted:

When Palpatine wanted Luke to strike him down, it wasn't because he had mystical soul voodoo to take over Luke's body and make him evil, it would be because giving in to those emotions would corrupt him.
He didn't want Luke to strike him down at all, he wanted Luke to strike down Vader, then Palpatine would get a new apprentice with two arms and legs

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

I think they're a ref to the OT, I remember something about the Falcon having dice in the cockpit as a joke. Also yeah in the Solo movie he got them from his girlfriend and they're his lucky dice that he won the Falcon with

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

A series set on a dingy city planet where a guy solves a different problem every week in exchange for a mechanical part, and at the end of the season it turns out he was collecting the parts to soup up his X-wing and he finishes it and flies away

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Tenzarin posted:

Rogue one and Solo are the best star war films.

Solo is barely even a film tbh

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2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Onmi posted:

This is why I always say that The Last Jedi doesn't feel like a story, it feels like Rian Johnson is talking to the fans through the vector of the actors. Because there's that moment early on when Snoke gets pissy at Kylo, mocking him for his obsession (That he previously supported) and berating him for "Losing to a girl with no training." That's not a real complaint or a real problem in the realm of the story. Kylo, who was bleeding out from being shot, lost a duel to a person who was perfectly healthy and fueled by rage while he was torn with indecision. Snoke's comments make no sense to Story Kylo Ren, Snokes comments only make sense from the meta-level, of fan commentary on a scene in TFA. And the whole film is like that. It's a commentary to fans.

It makes sense to me as Snoke trying to make Kylo feel bad. He later says "I stoked Ren's conflicted soul" and presumably him yelling at Kylo is him doing exactly that. The only part of the movie that stood out to me as making no sense except to fans watching is Finn saying he is "rebel scum"

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