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Timeless Appeal posted:Also, by the guy who keeps talking about destroying the past being full of poo poo. Also, the thing the villain says is rarely the moral of the story.
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Nov 25, 2019 21:44
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Brother Entropy posted:but that kinda leads to some circular logic when he's only shown to be the villain once he says the past needs to be discarded Maybe kinda, but I don't think so. Regardless of his internal conflict, he's been shown to be *a* villain since TFA. He aims to and succeeds in overthrowing *the* villain, who basically exists to be usurped so Kylo can become *the* villain. Never mind that he's visually coded as the villain throughout, and while TLJ is having fun with subversion, it's not extending that subversion to Star Wars' visual rhetoric.
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Nov 25, 2019 22:05
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Schwarzwald posted:Does TLJ ever actually show the First Order do anything villainous? Trying to exterminate the Resistance, Force torturing Rey, attempting to cruelly execute Finn and Rose, promising to not just kill Luke but level Aach-To. But also, it's already been established that they're villains capable of great villainy in the first film. We don't really need a reset on that. Brother Entropy posted:man, that post got me thinking about everything that happens in TLJ and like, outside of a couple of deaths very little happens in that film that actually sticks. beyond the obvious two of snoke and luke everyone else is basically where they were at the end of TFA, despite some brief flirtations at character arcs that get walked back or ultimately ignored. I disagree. We see all our principles grow as characters. Rey begins the film as someone who is still looking for a hero. She ends the film understanding that she is the only hero she needs. Finn begins the film committed to nothing but saving Rey and himself. He ends the film being committed to the Resistance and willing to sacrifice himself to that commitment. Poe begins the film as the cocky ace. He ends the film as the humbled leader who no understands the cost of sacrifice. Kylo beings the film conflicted between the Light and Dark and unsure of his position in the (First) Order. He ends the film no longer conflicted between the Light and Dark and certain of his position of Supreme Leader. Sure they're not complex character evolutions, but they are growth. And considering that this is a franchise where "Han went from shooting an enemy to helping his friend" counts as a character arc, I'd say they're significant.
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Nov 25, 2019 22:50
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nemesis_hub posted:I wish we’d gotten Snoke as an actual giant like in his TFA hologram form. We did. He's like 12 feet tall in the throne room scenes.
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Nov 26, 2019 15:10
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Vim Fuego posted:Really? He looked more like 6 feet tall and 6 feet tall to me Huh, he looks really huge to me. Especially when he has Rey all close and caresses the side of her face with his monster paw.
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Nov 26, 2019 17:45
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Brother Entropy posted:what looks good about it? It looks to be a genuinely entertaining and well produced action and adventure trip with a couple of big fun "twists" I'll see coming like the turns on a rollercoaster. Or in other words, a traditional blockbuster calculated for the widest possible appeal. And maybe that's the best and smartest way to wrap up "The Skywalker Saga" after deciding it needed a third trilogy. That said, I'm calibrating my expectations to Abrams being the director and the volume of people who got vocally upset because they had dumb ideas about TLJ. I genuinely love that movie, warts and all. It's my favorite SW movie. I'd definitely prefer they run with the threads RJ handed them instead of further downplaying Anakin and Luke's victories in RotJ by bringing Palps back. But on the other hand, getting to see some creaky mechanical Ian McDermott chew scenery will probably be pretty loving cool.
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Nov 26, 2019 20:18
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porfiria posted:This thread is about Star Wars, and TFA and TLJ were lovely. That’s not an opinion that’s just the reality of the situation we’re in right now. They’re lovely Movies. If you like them that’s fine but until and unless we can acknowledge the simple facts of the case it’s hard to have a productive discussion. I understand that many people's vision went red when Luke threw their metaphorical childhoods off a cliff and thus they weren't able to see the rest of the movie, but those of us with functioning eyes know that TLJ is objectively the best. 
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Nov 26, 2019 21:57
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porfiria posted:The biggest problem with TLJ is it didn’t poo poo on Star Wars enough. "Rian, you were meant to destroy the franchise, not join it!" E: really, my biggest problem with this assessment is that it tacitly agrees with the CHUDs' feelings about the film.
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Nov 26, 2019 22:08
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porfiria posted:All right: the biggest problem with TLJ is its deep-seated political conservatism. But the lady who looks like a gender studies professor yells at the guy whose skin isn't too dark for me to comfortably identify with!
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Nov 26, 2019 22:22
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YaketySass posted:It's a movie whose context is supposedly informed by the prequels and yet there's no worn down Leia going "Maybe our aristocratic parliamentary system that enthusiastically voted for the Empire is bad, time to end the Republic". To be fair to her, by the time TLJ begins, the Republic is already gone again, and she seems a lot more comfortable as the leader of an insurgency. So comfortable, in fact, that she busts out her most fabulous gowns and coats.
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Nov 26, 2019 22:28
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No Mods No Masters posted:Leia's blithe, smug assertion that she, someone who can barely walk or speak, has everything she needs to restore herself to power- after ~99.99% of her forces have been killed and the entire galaxy has been conquered by nazis- will remain the most perfect and crystalline expression of a particular political moment You can certainly draw that parallel, though I think your description of her characterization is off. But the bigger issue is that in the context of Star Wars, as both a narrative and a universe, Leia is correct.
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Nov 26, 2019 23:24
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No Mods No Masters posted:The movie is peak hillaryman fantasy, so yes of course it can back up its delusion that this is all just a temporary setback with subsequent contrived events. Only those outside the bubble can perceive its laughability. I get what you're saying and don't entirely disagree, but delusions about the inevitable justice of liberal democratic order are baked into the series as a whole. You'll note that they switch to calling themselves a Rebellion instead of a Resistance by the end of the film. This is because a handful of people huddled in one space ship is exactly how the last Rebellion began at the very end of the prequels. Even those films weren't really critical of liberal democracy. They're less about the failure of the Republic's system and more about the failure of individuals, the Jedi generally, to uphold that system because they had both lost their true faith and were being tricked by a Miltonic evil space wizard.
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Nov 26, 2019 23:57
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Uh, no. Smitts' plan as a leader of the Rebellion is to rally other Senators to his cause. He has not lost faith in the system. There's a Seperatist movement because Palps promises the goods to greedy caricatures and recruits a disgruntled Jedi who decided to keep his hereditary title to be their figurehead. No one hates the Republic so much to put their own lives on the line in resistance to its order, which is why both armies need to be manufactured. No Mods No Masters posted:To me the "we have everything we need" sentiment is itself the difference. At the end of the prequels there's no confidence among the future rebels per se, just a sense that a long uphill struggle is beginning which is going to require the painstaking construction of a mass movement and even then isn't a sure thing- in the event this takes ~20 years and requires massive luck and sacrifice. This is part of what makes it feel like a laughable dem fantasy when leia says her 8 surviving acolytes have got this, and then one year later they've got this. That's fair. It does trivialize how monumental the struggle before them is. In a way, this is one of the places where TLJ inverts Empire. In Empire, a strategic victory is rendered tragic by a personal loss. In TLJ, a strategic tragedy is rendered triumphant by a personal victory. The latter is definitely more shallow.
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Nov 27, 2019 00:22
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The point is they have to manufacture armies on both sides because no one really cares enough to fight a war. The war to divide the Republic has to be literally manufactured.SuperMechagodzilla posted:He kills C3PO. That's a bad action. He's a bad guy. I think one could quibble about "kills" here, but I take that as a fair point. But also, the movies as a whole and the prequels in particular are terribly inconsistent on their moral stance around droids. And not my view. The movies' view. The Nemodians are caricatures of greedy others. They're never enthusiastic about the scheme to squeeze Naboo. They're only in it because Sidious tells them it will work and then intimidates them by sending Maul along. Sidious is never "really unpopular." Indeed, one of the points of his whole Naboo scheme is to increase his popularity and become chancellor. We shift forward to Ep2 to eventually learn that the leader of the Seperatists is actually his Sith apprentice and through a scheme of theirs, the Jedi were handed an army by which they were goaded into beginning a war. The war begins not because of widespread disillusionment with the Republic but because Sidious sets up a voice of dissent and then tricks the Jedi into proving his point. Then you get to the original trilogy, which is about restoring liberal democracy from a fascist takeover, and the sequels, which are about defending that liberal democracy from a fascist invasion from the "Unknown Regions."
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Nov 27, 2019 03:12
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Timeless Appeal posted:I get from a cynical--and not wrong point of view--that the The Resistance and the First Order are just repaints of the Rebellion and Empire to maintain the imagery of the original films despite the ending of the original trilogy. And so any actual depth in the new trilogy is a bit hindered by these two idealogical factions being born out of corporate edict more than a sense of metaphor. I think one of the ideas behind "Palps was always around in the background" is that it helps reconcile this. The New Republic didn't fully deal with the menace, which is why it came back 30 years later. Basically, Palps is It, but a new generation has to finally deal with the (mechanical) spider monster.
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Nov 27, 2019 03:31
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Timeless Appeal posted:Yeah, but I feel like TLJ kind of already did this with Snoke. The implication is that there is just some other rear end in a top hat like Palpatine who manages to manipulate his way into a position of power and dispensed with the Democratic structures. Like we don't need three movies to show it because we know how this works. The whole implication of TLJ is that Palpatine isn't particularly special. Yeah, it kinda did. And we definitely didn't need a trilogy to explain how the next big bad came to be. But also Snoke is presented more as an external threat to the liberal democratic order as opposed to Palps being an internal one. Snoke didn't manipulate the system to rise to power. He is some mysterious outsider who kidnapped children to build an invasion force that is successful because the New Republic was apparently war worn and complacent. So Palpatine having been around the entire time is the avatar of that complacency.
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Nov 27, 2019 05:23
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Mandrel posted:is this from the books of something Nope. Finn explains the part about being a kidnapped child. Maybe the Unknown Regions stuff is really only spelled out in Resistance, but I could swear it's mentioned in TFA. SuperMechagodzilla posted:This is just forums poster Cnut’s misreading of events , repeated verbatim. And that path ended with him being driven mad like a Lovecraft protagonist. I suggest stepping back from it. Nope. The morality around droids is terribly inconsistent. And it's arguable about whether or not he is "killed". He still exists afterwards. He's still the same exact person. On the other hand, what is consistent is that Palpatine manipulates the Republic into its crisis. porfiria posted:Right--the prequels aren't nearly Leftist enough. This guy gets it.
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Dec 1, 2019 03:56
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Blood Boils posted:Threepio isn't like Finn, he can't reverse or escape his brain wash. If you lose your whole personality and memory and never recover any of it, are you really the exact same person? Apparently, 3PO is the exact same person after having his memory wiped because he identifies as the same person he always has and acts the exact same as he always has. The moral inconsistencies around droids abound. Sometimes they are people whom we are to sympathize with. Sometimes they are just appliances with no discernible human personality. Sometimes the former are slaughtered in droves and we're really not asked to sympathize with them--battle droids who were goofy cut ups a moment ago are now implacable foes and cannon fodder. Sometimes the latter are presented as poor abject creatures whom we should feel bad for--the gonk droids who was apparently just a walking battery is getting tortured. Droids are whatever the scene requires them to be. Their intended affect is whatever the scene requires it to be.
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Dec 2, 2019 15:35
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Schwarzwald posted:When Indiana Jones is shown being friends with Sallah but also he shoots the dancing sword guy with a gun, that's not the film showing moral inconsistencies around Egyptians. That's the film showing that Indiana Jones is a murderer. Yeah, at no point does Raiders frame the killing of Nazis or their stooges, especially when they are in the process of threatening Indie or his friends' lives, as murder.
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Dec 2, 2019 18:59
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Schwarzwald posted:Alright, a better choice of words on my part would have been "killer," but that just furthers my point. The dude hired by the Nazis and the excavator are clearly very different characters with very different roles in the film. If I were to then say that that the film was inconsistent in regards to Egyptians because their intended affect was whatever the scene required it to be, you'd say I was nuts. Yes, your point is improved if you don't rely on hyperbolic phrasing that causes me to question your ability to read the moral framing in a movie about keeping a religious artifact out of the hands of Nazis. The point you're trying to make would work better if Star Wars didn't characterize the same droids, or types of droids at least, as people in one scene and just things in another. Are battle droids poor dumb grunts made to be slave soldiers, or are they centrally controlled automated killing machines? Are gonk droids walking batteries with no discernible mind or personality, or are they persons who can be tortured? The answers to these questions depend on what scene your watching.
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Dec 2, 2019 19:57
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Schwarzwald posted:Indiana Jones ain't exactly against the theft of religious artifacts. I didn't bring up "the theft of religious artifacts," but Raiders of the Lost Ark is exactly about keeping a religious artifact out of the hands of Nazis. And two of the four films are explicitly against the theft of religious artifacts. quote:The battle droids are only portrayed as "automated" in the sense that they're in step with one another (they're soldiers), and they're centrally controlled to the extent that they can be remotely killed. By that definition, the people of Alderan were centrally controlled by the Death Star. They're automated to the extent that they lie dormant until deployed and are remotely controlled by Nemodians aboard something called a "droid control ship." One cannot discern a mind or personality from "gonk". Captain Jesus posted:The point is that while droids are living, sentient beings in the Star Wars universe, they are also utilized as appliances. The point is sometimes this is presented as something sad and lamentable, and other times, it's just w/e, that's how the Star Wars universe is because droids aren't really people. PeterWeller fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Dec 2, 2019 |
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Dec 2, 2019 20:45
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Schwarzwald posted:Sometimes an Egyptian is basically a good guy and other times they are being controlled by the Nazis and it's OK to kill them if you have to. Does Raider's of the Lost Ark present the Egyptians as people? Raiders barely presents Egyptians as people. Mostly, they're just exotic background filler. It's quite a stretch to say the humans are remotely controlled by MOTHER. They clearly exhibit an independent will. The battle droids don't, or at least I can't remember them doing so. But much more significantly, Ripley says and does many things from which one can discern a mind or personality. She is much more than a box on two feet that periodically lets out a monotone "gonk" sound. Allow me some counter questions Is a mouse droid a person? What about that rolling thing with all the arms that the Jawas have to sell? What about droidekas? Is BB8 a person or more like a really clever pet? I won't deny that droids are consistently presented as being alive. I won't even deny that most of the named droids are consistently presented as being people or at least close enough to people to deserve being empathized with as if they were. But when it comes to how droids are treated and whether or not that is right or wrong, the movies begin to get inconsistent. Slavery is called out as an explicitly evil thing, but many of the explicitly good people possess droids as basically slaves. Wiping their memories appears to be a common and unproblematic practice. Casting aside damaged droids or destroying them arbitrarily frightens other droids, but nobody else really bats an eye at it. But also, let me step back, and then I'll drop this: the broader point is that it's silly to hang one's reading of the prequels on 3PO being "killed" when he isn't actually killed and what is done to him isn't actually presented as an evil act.
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Dec 2, 2019 22:46
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DeimosRising posted:How does this keep happening Oh man, I don't know if you're referring to this particular discussion or me becoming a pedantic poo poo like I did back in my 40K thread days (which was the behavior that made me force myself away from the forums for so long). Either way, thanks. You made me pause and reconsider. Captain Jesus posted:Of course droids aren't really people, because they are fictional beings. They are people in the Star Wars universe though and the fact they are sometimes not treated as people by other characters is not an example of inconsistent storytelling, but part of the story. Legit thanks for pointing out the obvious here because in my zeal to argue my position, I was missing the forest for the trees and unfairly characterizing the variety of droids and the ways in which they're treated as inconsistent. In my mind, I was resting on the idea that I didn't really give a poo poo about gonk droids until Jedi asked me to sympathize with one by showing the poor thing get tortured. That's not inconsistency. That's just how stories work. I still don't think mind wiping 3PO at the end of Sith is some indictment of the Rebellion or its goals, but that's not because of any inconsistency in the narrative, and I was being silly to argue so.
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Dec 3, 2019 00:36
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Father! The Sleeper has awakened!
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Dec 3, 2019 01:43
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galagazombie posted:I mean, I was always on the more "Droids don't work the same as organics" side of the argument but everyone here just kinda forgot. Yeah, I don't think that's in question, but I'll cop to resting a whole lot of bullshit on it.
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Dec 3, 2019 03:18
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Gonz posted:I honestly hope Force Ghost Han is just a disinformation tactic to cover for Force Ghost Anakin. I think Disney is slowly moving towards the "well actually, everyone has the Force" concept, and I'm cool with that. But yeah, Force Ghost Han doesn't make much sense even with that concept. Moose King posted:It's a JJ Abrams movie, glaring mistake WRT the scale of space are to be expected. Star Trek had the planet Vulcan being clearly visible from a planet on the other side of the galaxy, The Force Awakens had the same thing with Hosnian Prime getting blown up, it's not a stretch at all for JJ to just arbitrarily decide that the Death Star II wreckage ended up on a different planet. To be fair, the size and scope of space in Star Wars has never made all that much sense. You're supposed to need a hyperdrive to travel from one system to the next, but the Falcon can make it from Hoth to Bespin on a broken one. And for some reason, Tatooine is on the way from Naboo to Coruscant. It's best to think of space and time in Star Wars in terms of what Bakhtin calls "adventure time." There are no set distances. Any journey takes as long as is dramatically appropriate.
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Dec 6, 2019 20:26
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Gonz posted:The Force IS in everything. But Han isn’t a Jedi, and even so, was never given any proper training on how to become a gotdang Force Ghost, so hopefully Disney doesn’t retcon it. Apologies for not being clearer. I meant "has" in the sense that Luke uses it to refer to his family: the ability to consciously use the Force. Mat Cauthon posted:It makes zero sense. Have we ever seen a Force Ghost (in the movies) that wasn't a powerful, fully trained Jedi who died at peace with themselves? Disney is gonna do whatever they want to do but there's no logical foundation for it by the standards of the story they're telling. It makes zero sense in a universe where you have to practice and train and be "Force sensitive". It still makes little sense in a universe where everyone already is "Force sensitive" and can figure out how to use it on their own. weekly font posted:Remember that Force Unleashed game that was so big and loud and dumb and adorable that it explicitly was not canon so it could do wacky poo poo? The Force Unleashed and its sequel were canon before Disney bought the franchise.
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Dec 7, 2019 03:30
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weekly font posted:Wait no there’s stuff in that game like murdering Han Solo and Vader I think the Light Side path was the canonical one, like with KotOR 1 and 2.
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Dec 7, 2019 03:40
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If this is gonna be such a poo poo show, shouldn't we be glad that we at least get some more Ian McDiarmid? He's the best part in almost half the movies so far.
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Dec 7, 2019 19:28
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TerminalRaptor posted:Buddy, 15 years later and I'm still dying to know what the Cylon's plan was. They got you covered: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1286130/
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Dec 8, 2019 20:34
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Kylo is not actually interested in letting the past die. He's still LARPing his personal myth about his grandpa. He's still planning on killing his uncle. The line is some bullshit he tells Rey to try and persuade her to get on board with killing everyone she cares about and giving up on her own history so she can be his evil space queen.
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Dec 11, 2019 18:59
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Everyone posted:One thing that's interesting about the Expanded Universe books is that they drew a lot of their setting and equipment information from the West End Games Star Wars RPG (which in turn got it from Lucas films in a pretty unprecedented way) . I think that helped ground them a bit in reality, sort of. In an RPG you have to know where places are, how long it takes to get from one to another. How fast various ships are, how tough they are, how much range and power their weapons have. This isn't story logic you're talking about. It's game logic, or more specifically, simulationist game logic. One of the fundamental characteristics of narrative is that narrators can manipulate time and space to meet the needs and goals of the narrative. That's a central point of Bakhtin's chronotope. I have only read the Thrawn and first New Jedi trilogies from the EU, and I don't remember any of those books being particularly beholden to specific codified distances between worlds and speeds of ships. Journeys take as long or short as the story requires them to. I'd also note that WEG didn't really make much use of that stuff in the actual rules of play. Hyperspace speeds were mainly just one thing that affected the difficulty of an astrogation roll. Sublight speeds were determined by a roll. This was because WEG, at least at first, recognized that Star Wars wasn't concerned with realism or consistency beyond what was needed for an exciting and compelling adventure story.
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Jan 1, 2020 19:51
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Of course, this means that there were literally a million Darth Mauls being kept in reserve, since long before Phantom Menace, for no clear reason. I don't recall your take on Maul. Why do you say this?
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Jan 5, 2020 22:39
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:In Lucas’ series, Maul says: “at last, we will reveal ourselves the Jedi. At last, we will have revenge.” Ahh, okay. So Maul is both condemned to and a product of Exogol, and can be reproduced en-masse like star destroyers or red storm troopers or Palpatines? Just like whatever it takes to have new threats and villains? I like this parallel between Maul and Palpatine. Both were literally cast down into pits and thought destroyed, but they cannot be destroyed because they're just expressions of this evil that exists only to be existential evil.
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Jan 6, 2020 01:20
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:To clarify: Snoke is a clone (I guess), but Palpatine and the other hooded figures are not. Sheev still carries his injuries from the Death Star (2), so this is the same body that fell into the pit. (ROS simply retcons the explosion of the Death Star (2) to be much smaller.) Disney Maul is, likewise, still bisected in Solo. Sure, Palpatine retains injuries from Jedi, and Maul is still bisected, and even the chopped up Snoke bodies in the tube recall the last image of him from TLJ, so clearly, even if they are clones in a mechanical sense, they're clones who reflect the experience of their originals, and are those originals brought back to (un)life. But you said, "there were literally a million Darth Mauls being kept in reserve," which is practically an infinite amount of him. I'm interested in the idea that Skywalker has rendered him just another repeatable villain that can be recalled from reserve. I like that you characterize Exogol as a retirement home and ask why retire. It doesn't seem a place one chooses to retire to. Palpatine and Maul are cast down pits. And the "retirement" they experience is simply another layer of liability. Maul is the shadowy figure behind Crimson Dawn. Palpatine is the shadowy figure behind the First and Final Orders. So the answer becomes: why note "retire"? Doing so achieves the same great power of the Jedi: immortality. In narrative terms, Palpatine and Maul do the same thing all the blue ghost and voice over Jedi do and more.
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Jan 6, 2020 06:18
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Mike N Eich posted:I think its really funny they didn't give any reason for why Palpatine was back - they knew whatever answer they gave would be so loving stupid they left it completely empty and let you fill in the (dumb) details They do give a reason, the dark magics or w/e line said by the hobbit. He's an evil space wizard with an evil space cult. Besides, he's not even the first Sith to come back from the dead.
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Jan 6, 2020 23:30
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General Dog posted:They don’t give a reason, they throw out several potential reasons. Those reasons are all essentially synonymous with "evil Sith stuff." The point is the specific mechanism doesn't matter.
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Jan 7, 2020 01:34
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McCloud posted:Let's charitably assume Sheev-o isn't using some dumb force manipulation to seduce Luke but is just sticking to good old fashioned manipulation. I think it's fair to take this stance, but I'm not sure you can make the same assumption about what happens in TLJ. Using the Force to communicate and manipulate from a distance is central to the film. Snoke corrupted Ben from afar. Magic may also be involved in how Luke is tempted in that moment. I tend to think it's the Dark Side itself tempting him, but it could be Snoke himself or even possibly ghost Palpatine in light of TROS. Also, I don't think Luke ever consciously considers killing Ben. Igniting the saber is how the film visually conveys his temptation. He resists that temptation. His first conscious thought is shame at not being immune to temptation.
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Jan 7, 2020 04:26
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Pollyanna posted:Cuz he's a Jedi and he didn't show up at the end to talk to Rey. Okay, he might not be dead, anyway. Ahsoka talked to Rey, and they have confirmed that she is still alive at that point. So there's absolutely no consistency.
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Jan 8, 2020 15:42
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Basebf555 posted:They didn't even say she's still alive, that would've been slightly better. What they said was some non-committal answer about dead characters not necessarily having to stay dead or something like that. It's like, yea we know that? Of course you can bring a dead character back, but that's not the question. Ashoka IS dead, currently, is she not? They haven't answered that question. Oh, that is even worse. My thought was that they put her in for fan service without considering the implications or how they might upset fans. Basebf555 posted:"Yea, she's dead just like the rest of the dead Jedi from that scene". And there's nothing unsatisfying about this.
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Jan 8, 2020 16:45
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