Is your job bullshit?

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Is your job bullshit
	Yes
	No
	I don't know

Rated PG-34: Jul 1, 2004

Does your job contribute meaningfully to the world? Do you spend all day doing poo poo that doesn't really need to be done?

This poll is inspired by David Graeber's new book coming out, Bullshit Jobs: A Theory, which was based on his 2013 essay: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

quote:

In the year 1930, John Maynard Keynes predicted that, by century's end, technology would have advanced sufficiently that countries like Great Britain or the United States would have achieved a 15-hour work week. There's every reason to believe he was right. In technological terms, we are quite capable of this. And yet it didn't happen. Instead, technology has been marshaled, if anything, to figure out ways to make us all work more. In order to achieve this, jobs have had to be created that are, effectively, pointless. Huge swathes of people, in Europe and North America in particular, spend their entire working lives performing tasks they secretly believe do not really need to be performed. The moral and spiritual damage that comes from this situation is profound. It is a scar across our collective soul. Yet virtually no one talks about it.

Why did Keynes' promised utopia�still being eagerly awaited in the '60s�never materialise? The standard line today is that he didn't figure in the massive increase in consumerism. Given the choice between less hours and more toys and pleasures, we've collectively chosen the latter. This presents a nice morality tale, but even a moment's reflection shows it can't really be true. Yes, we have witnessed the creation of an endless variety of new jobs and industries since the '20s, but very few have anything to do with the production and distribution of sushi, iPhones, or fancy sneakers.

So what are these new jobs, precisely? A recent report comparing employment in the US between 1910 and 2000 gives us a clear picture (and I note, one pretty much exactly echoed in the UK). Over the course of the last century, the number of workers employed as domestic servants, in industry, and in the farm sector has collapsed dramatically. At the same time, �professional, managerial, clerical, sales, and service workers� tripled, growing �from one-quarter to three-quarters of total employment.� In other words, productive jobs have, just as predicted, been largely automated away (even if you count industrial workers globally, including the toiling masses in India and China, such workers are still not nearly so large a percentage of the world population as they used to be.)

But rather than allowing a massive reduction of working hours to free the world's population to pursue their own projects, pleasures, visions, and ideas, we have seen the ballooning of not even so much of the �service� sector as of the administrative sector, up to and including the creation of whole new industries like financial services or telemarketing, or the unprecedented expansion of sectors like corporate law, academic and health administration, human resources, and public relations. And these numbers do not even reflect on all those people whose job is to provide administrative, technical, or security support for these industries, or for that matter the whole host of ancillary industries (dog-washers, all-night pizza delivery) that only exist because everyone else is spending so much of their time working in all the other ones.

These are what I propose to call �bullshit jobs�.

It's as if someone were out there making up pointless jobs just for the sake of keeping us all working. And here, precisely, lies the mystery. In capitalism, this is precisely what is not supposed to happen. Sure, in the old inefficient socialist states like the Soviet Union, where employment was considered both a right and a sacred duty, the system made up as many jobs as they had to (this is why in Soviet department stores it took three clerks to sell a piece of meat). But, of course, this is the sort of very problem market competition is supposed to fix. According to economic theory, at least, the last thing a profit-seeking firm is going to do is shell out money to workers they don't really need to employ. Still, somehow, it happens.

While corporations may engage in ruthless downsizing, the layoffs and speed-ups invariably fall on that class of people who are actually making, moving, fixing and maintaining things; through some strange alchemy no one can quite explain, the number of salaried paper-pushers ultimately seems to expand, and more and more employees find themselves, not unlike Soviet workers actually, working 40 or even 50 hour weeks on paper, but effectively working 15 hours just as Keynes predicted, since the rest of their time is spent organizing or attending motivational seminars, updating their facebook profiles or downloading TV box-sets.

The answer clearly isn't economic: it's moral and political. The ruling class has figured out that a happy and productive population with free time on their hands is a mortal danger (think of what started to happen when this even began to be approximated in the '60s). And, on the other hand, the feeling that work is a moral value in itself, and that anyone not willing to submit themselves to some kind of intense work discipline for most of their waking hours deserves nothing, is extraordinarily convenient for them.

Once, when contemplating the apparently endless growth of administrative responsibilities in British academic departments, I came up with one possible vision of hell. Hell is a collection of individuals who are spending the bulk of their time working on a task they don't like and are not especially good at. Say they were hired because they were excellent cabinet-makers, and then discover they are expected to spend a great deal of their time frying fish. Neither does the task really need to be done�at least, there's only a very limited number of fish that need to be fried. Yet somehow, they all become so obsessed with resentment at the thought that some of their co-workers might be spending more time making cabinets, and not doing their fair share of the fish-frying responsibilities, that before long there's endless piles of useless badly cooked fish piling up all over the workshop and it's all that anyone really does. I think this is actually a pretty accurate description of the moral dynamics of our own economy.

Now, I realise any such argument is going to run into immediate objections: �who are you to say what jobs are really �necessary�? What's necessary anyway? You're an anthropology professor, what's the �need� for that?� (And indeed a lot of tabloid readers would take the existence of my job as the very definition of wasteful social expenditure.) And on one level, this is obviously true. There can be no objective measure of social value.

I would not presume to tell someone who is convinced they are making a meaningful contribution to the world that, really, they are not. But what about those people who are themselves convinced their jobs are meaningless? Not long ago I got back in touch with a school friend who I hadn't seen since I was 12. I was amazed to discover that in the interim, he had become first a poet, then the front man in an indie rock band. I'd heard some of his songs on the radio having no idea the singer was someone I actually knew. He was obviously brilliant, innovative, and his work had unquestionably brightened and improved the lives of people all over the world. Yet, after a couple of unsuccessful albums, he'd lost his contract, and plagued with debts and a newborn daughter, ended up, as he put it, �taking the default choice of so many directionless folk: law school.� Now he's a corporate lawyer working in a prominent New York firm. He was the first to admit that his job was utterly meaningless, contributed nothing to the world, and, in his own estimation, should not really exist.

There's a lot of questions one could ask here, starting with, what does it say about our society that it seems to generate an extremely limited demand for talented poet-musicians, but an apparently infinite demand for specialists in corporate law? (Answer: if 1% of the population controls most of the disposable wealth, what we call �the market� reflects what they think is useful or important, not anybody else.) But even more, it shows that most people in these jobs are ultimately aware of it. In fact, I'm not sure I've ever met a corporate lawyer who didn't think their job was bullshit. The same goes for almost all the new industries outlined above. There is a whole class of salaried professionals that, should you meet them at parties and admit that you do something that might be considered interesting (an anthropologist, for example), will want to avoid even discussing their line of work entirely (one or t'other?) Give them a few drinks, and they will launch into tirades about how pointless and stupid their job really is.

This is a profound psychological violence here. How can one even begin to speak of dignity in labour when one secretly feels one's job should not exist? How can it not create a sense of deep rage and resentment. Yet it is the peculiar genius of our society that its rulers have figured out a way, as in the case of the fish-fryers, to ensure that rage is directed precisely against those who actually do get to do meaningful work. For instance: in our society, there seems a general rule that, the more obviously one's work benefits other people, the less one is likely to be paid for it. Again, an objective measure is hard to find, but one easy way to get a sense is to ask: what would happen were this entire class of people to simply disappear? Say what you like about nurses, garbage collectors, or mechanics, it's obvious that were they to vanish in a puff of smoke, the results would be immediate and catastrophic. A world without teachers or dock-workers would soon be in trouble, and even one without science fiction writers or ska musicians would clearly be a lesser place. It's not entirely clear how humanity would suffer were all private equity CEOs, lobbyists, PR researchers, actuaries, telemarketers, bailiffs or legal consultants to similarly vanish. (Many suspect it might markedly improve.) Yet apart from a handful of well-touted exceptions (doctors), the rule holds surprisingly well.

Even more perverse, there seems to be a broad sense that this is the way things should be. This is one of the secret strengths of right-wing populism. You can see it when tabloids whip up resentment against tube workers for paralysing London during contract disputes: the very fact that tube workers can paralyse London shows that their work is actually necessary, but this seems to be precisely what annoys people. It's even clearer in the US, where Republicans have had remarkable success mobilizing resentment against school teachers, or auto workers (and not, significantly, against the school administrators or auto industry managers who actually cause the problems) for their supposedly bloated wages and benefits. It's as if they are being told �but you get to teach children! Or make cars! You get to have real jobs! And on top of that you have the nerve to also expect middle-class pensions and health care?�

If someone had designed a work regime perfectly suited to maintaining the power of finance capital, it's hard to see how they could have done a better job. Real, productive workers are relentlessly squeezed and exploited. The remainder are divided between a terrorised stratum of the, universally reviled, unemployed and a larger stratum who are basically paid to do nothing, in positions designed to make them identify with the perspectives and sensibilities of the ruling class (managers, administrators, etc.)�and particularly its financial avatars�but, at the same time, foster a simmering resentment against anyone whose work has clear and undeniable social value. Clearly, the system was never consciously designed. It emerged from almost a century of trial and error. But it is the only explanation for why, despite our technological capacities, we are not all working 3�4 hour days.

Also, what is your job?

Rated PG-34 fucked around with this message at 20:01 on May 17, 2018

# ? May 17, 2018 06:08

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# ? Apr 25, 2024 21:52

Moridin920: Nov 15, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

We totally could have a 15 hour workweek but instead the bosses decided it would be easier to just do mass layoffs when technology improves instead.

# ? May 17, 2018 06:12

mst4k: Apr 18, 2003; budlitemolaram

I took some vacation time this week and only worked about 15 hrs so mission accomplished imo

# ? May 17, 2018 06:15

Sjs00: Jun 29, 2013; Yeah Baby Yeah !

Melinda what did I do wrong

# ? May 17, 2018 06:16

Oh Adaira: May 7, 2008; Casual Tabby

Office workers probably work only 15 of the 40 hours anyway.

# ? May 17, 2018 06:18

Raere: Dec 13, 2007

I�m reading the book rn and it�s good but he gets pedantic a lot. I�ve decided that I have a second order bullshit job. I do real, good work for people, but those people in turn have bullshit jobs

# ? May 17, 2018 06:19

Jezza of OZPOS: Mar 21, 2018; GET LOSE❌🗺️, YOUS CAN'T COMPARE😤 WITH ME 💪POWERS🇦🇺

Oh Adaira posted:

Office workers probably work only 15 of the 40 hours anyway.

Dude posting and making GBS threads at the same time is work

# ? May 17, 2018 06:19

Nice Guy Patron: Jun 29, 2015

One of the hats I wear at my job is Baker. So I guess it contributes, in the sense that I make things people want and eat on a daily basis.

# ? May 17, 2018 06:20

rgocs: Nov 9, 2011

Oh Adaira posted:

Office workers probably work only 15 of the 40 hours anyway.

Do meetings count as "work"?

# ? May 17, 2018 06:21

Jezza of OZPOS: Mar 21, 2018; GET LOSE❌🗺️, YOUS CAN'T COMPARE😤 WITH ME 💪POWERS🇦🇺

rgocs posted:

Do meetings count as "work"?

Lol no

# ? May 17, 2018 06:21

Haptical Sales Slut: Mar 15, 2010; Age 18 to 49

Sounds like commie talk to me. Tesla x ain't free losers

# ? May 17, 2018 06:25

mst4k: Apr 18, 2003; budlitemolaram

Oh Adaira posted:

Office workers probably work only 15 of the 40 hours anyway.

This is true, but I think having to get up and go to work is slavery.

# ? May 17, 2018 06:32

Moridin920: Nov 15, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

Oh Adaira posted:

Office workers probably work only 1 of the 40 hours anyway.

ftfy

# ? May 17, 2018 06:34

Otto Von Jizzmark: Dec 27, 2004

Im a supervisor at a hospital laboratory. Im in charge of testing that doctors use to save peoples lives.

When i get home i eat my own waste make love to my dog and then check these forums.

# ? May 17, 2018 06:34

Nice Guy Patron: Jun 29, 2015

I know people look down on what I do, but I take pride in the fact that I actually make something that's useful everyday.

# ? May 17, 2018 06:36

Nice Guy Patron: Jun 29, 2015

Otto Von Jizzmark posted:

Im a supervisor at a hospital laboratory. Im in charge of testing that doctors use to save peoples lives.

When i get home i eat my own waste make love to my dog and then check these forums.

This seems like a really interesting job.

# ? May 17, 2018 06:36

SKULL.GIF: Jan 20, 2017

your poll is broken because of the way you framed it

"is your job bullshit?" yes or no

vs

"does your job contribute meaningfully?" yes or no

answering 'yes' to the first means 'no' to the second, but you pose both questions at once

# ? May 17, 2018 06:38

Ruzihm: Aug 11, 2010; Group up and push mid, proletariat!

I help automate IT jobs.

# ? May 17, 2018 06:42

Rated PG-34: Jul 1, 2004

SKULL.GIF posted:

your poll is broken because of the way you framed it

"is your job bullshit?" yes or no

vs

"does your job contribute meaningfully?" yes or no

answering 'yes' to the first means 'no' to the second, but you pose both questions at once

Oops, thread title is not the same as the poll question but I guess that may not be wholly clear.

Edit: if a mod sees this and could change the thread title to �bullshit jobs: a poll�, that would be super duper. Also modding is not a bullshit job

Rated PG-34 fucked around with this message at 07:01 on May 17, 2018

# ? May 17, 2018 06:43

ReidRansom: Oct 25, 2004

I'm a marine geoscientist. Does my job contribute meaningfully to the world? Eh~

# ? May 17, 2018 06:45

Marlboro for Cats: Apr 14, 2018; by FactsAreUseless

my dog died im sad posted:

I know people look down on what I do,

Why? I like bread and stuff.

# ? May 17, 2018 06:50

Marlboro for Cats: Apr 14, 2018; by FactsAreUseless

Being a baker is probably a job that smells really nice.

# ? May 17, 2018 06:51

Pick: Jul 19, 2009; Nap Ghost

Raere posted:

I�m reading the book rn and it�s good but he gets pedantic a lot. I�ve decided that I have a second order bullshit job. I do real, good work for people, but those people in turn have bullshit jobs

sayme

# ? May 17, 2018 06:53

remigious: May 13, 2009; Destruction comes inevitably; Hell Gem

Hmm, how to answer without doxxing myself. I work in proposals. The company I work for is ok in my book, the problem is it was bought by the parent company some years ago, which runs private prisons.
So no, I don�t feel good about what I do at all, and I desperately want to be in another industry.

remigious fucked around with this message at 07:04 on May 17, 2018

# ? May 17, 2018 07:01

yeah I eat ass: Mar 14, 2005; only people who enjoy my posting can replace this avatar

My job is to write papers that maybe 15-20 people in the world will ever read. I only have one paper with 100 citations and it took 9 years to rack up that many. So I'd say my job is pretty worthless to society, but that doesn't bother me.

# ? May 17, 2018 07:04

Kuato: Feb 25, 2005; "I CAN'T BELIEVE I ATE THE WHOLE THING"; Buglord

I�m supposed to be analyzing policy and managing whatever that means? :confused:

As far as what I actually do, I look at the internet all day, whine around to everyone �is it 4 yet� and take 2-3 hour lunch breaks.

# ? May 17, 2018 07:07

Suspect A: Jan 1, 2015; Nap Ghost

The good thing about work is that I get to catch up on all the latest movies and pop culture while producing nothing!

# ? May 17, 2018 07:33

clone on the phone: Aug 5, 2003

I'm a medical courier so I guess my job isn't bullshit because people need poo poo I move around to live. I hardly consider it work though. Nobody bothers me and I just drive around all day with my tunes blasting.

# ? May 17, 2018 07:45

Former DILF: Jul 13, 2017

I sell money at the bank, so no

# ? May 17, 2018 07:47

MOOBS!: Dec 10, 2013

im the last of my familys dying business so i get to tell people to go gently caress themselves if they act stupid

# ? May 17, 2018 08:04

Laslow: Jul 18, 2007

I like how it frames our current situation as being by design by the elite. The ones that are smart enough to shape society to their will are trapped in the same existential hell that I am.

I have a shitload of free time and money. Ultimately, there are too many hours in the day, and it�s a small world. And if I did enough drugs to make every one of those hours interesting, I would be dead in a month.

# ? May 17, 2018 08:05

MOOBS!: Dec 10, 2013

soon i will be out of a job but until then if you tos s a credit card on the counter instead of hand it to me ill gently caress you for like $10

# ? May 17, 2018 08:05

bikesonyx: Oct 9, 2014

Cracker Barrel is the worst waiting job Ive ever had; I mean I thought it would be a good idea being near school and all but the truth is that you can't make any money. They want you to act like a sever in fine dining but you get about $4 per table. Im doing good, b.c. I have other things, but like don't work there if you need to pay bills.

# ? May 17, 2018 08:10

yeah I eat ass: Mar 14, 2005; only people who enjoy my posting can replace this avatar

bikesonyx posted:

Cracker Barrel is the worst waiting job Ive ever had; I mean I thought it would be a good idea being near school and all but the truth is that you can't make any money. They want you to act like a sever in fine dining but you get about $4 per table. Im doing good, b.c. I have other things, but like don't work there if you need to pay bills.

Yeah I would imagine anywhere that caters to mostly elderly people would be awful for the waiters tip-wise. Plus they make you pick like 4 sides and a lot of people are super indecisive when they only have to pick one.

# ? May 17, 2018 08:13

Mandrel: Sep 24, 2006

my job is pretty bullshit. im a panel membership rep for a market research company. i work from home and out of my car. i�m salaried but really only need to do about 15-20 hours of real work a week to be productive. the remaining 20-25 i fill on my time sheet as nebulous administrative time, most of which is spent lying around or doing whatever. the company gives me a car, pays for all my fuel, and my manager pretty much only checks in on our weekly market call, which I usually do half asleep from bed.

before I started this job I was a cable technician for a cable company for years. i worked 50+ hour weeks and came home every day filthy, covered in scrapes, sweaty, and sore. i climbed up and down telephone poles, through attics and crawl spaces all day. i came to hate how I was too exhausted to want to do anything in what little spare time I had.

but i was doing something productive, fixing stuff, solving problems. yeah whenever it was all to get some rear end in a top hat�s Fox News working again it felt pointless but when getting people�s communications up and running or fixed or better than they ever had them again made me feel useful on a psychological level i don�t think I realized. at first I was embarrassed to tell people I was a cable guy but then it was this great mine of bizarre stories of all the weirdos I met every day and strange situations I�d been in

what im doing now pays better, has great perks, gives me more freedom and autonomy than I could have imagined was possible from a big company, laid back management, and an almost creepily caring and positive corporate culture that respects me as a person with a life, and yet I just feel hollow about it and I can�t bring myself to take any personal pride in it. i recruit panelists to participate in market research so they can be more effectively sold things. nothing about this is necessary, if I have a fantastic week the only person it�s helped is me and my quarterly bonus.

i always thought the dream would be a fake job where i could basically just do whatever with the majority of my time with no oversight and get paid for it, but im starting to realize it might be sucking the soul out of me, idk.

# ? May 17, 2018 08:13

bikesonyx: Oct 9, 2014

yeah I eat rear end posted:

My job is to write papers that maybe 15-20 people in the world will ever read. I only have one paper with 100 citations and it took 9 years to rack up that many. So I'd say my job is pretty worthless to society, but that doesn't bother me.

I respect what you do tho

# ? May 17, 2018 08:17

MOOBS!: Dec 10, 2013

Mandrel posted:

my job is pretty bullshit. im a panel membership rep for a market research company. i work from home and out of my car. i�m salaried but really only need to do about 15-20 hours of real work a week to be productive. the remaining 20-25 i fill on my time sheet as nebulous administrative time, most of which is spent lying around or doing whatever. the company gives me a car, pays for all my fuel, and my manager pretty much only checks in on our weekly market call, which I usually do half asleep from bed.

before I started this job I was a cable technician for a cable company for years. i worked 50+ hour weeks and came home every day filthy, covered in scrapes, sweaty, and sore. i climbed up and down telephone poles, through attics and crawl spaces all day. i came to hate how I was too exhausted to want to do anything in what little spare time I had.

but i was doing something productive, fixing stuff, solving problems. yeah whenever it was all to get some rear end in a top hat�s Fox News working again it felt pointless but when getting people�s communications up and running or fixed or better than they ever had them again made me feel useful on a psychological level i don�t think I realized. at first I was embarrassed to tell people I was a cable guy but then it was this great mine of bizarre stories of all the weirdos I met every day and strange situations I�d been in

what im doing now pays better, has great perks, gives me more freedom and autonomy than I could have imagined was possible from a big company, laid back management, and an almost creepily caring and positive corporate culture that respects me as a person with a life, and yet I just feel hollow about it and I can�t bring myself to take any personal pride in it. i recruit panelists to participate in market research so they can be more effectively sold things. nothing about this is necessary, if I have a fantastic week the only person it�s helped is me and my quarterly bonus.

i always thought the dream would be a fake job where i could basically just do whatever with the majority of my time with no oversight and get paid for it, but im starting to realize it might be sucking the soul out of me, idk.

feel good that you paid your dues working a rough job but now you have enough money and free time to give a poo poo about other things you care about

# ? May 17, 2018 08:19

Jose: Jul 24, 2007; Adrian Chiles is a broadcaster and writer

Nuts and Gum posted:

Sounds like commie talk to me. Tesla x ain't free losers

tesla are going to collapse ftw

# ? May 17, 2018 08:23

Mandrel: Sep 24, 2006

MOOBS! posted:

feel good that you paid your dues working a rough job but now you have enough money and free time to give a poo poo about other things you care about

yeah that�s true, i know this is very much privileged whining and me a few years ago would punch softer me now in his idiot face

# ? May 17, 2018 08:33

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# ? Apr 25, 2024 21:52

MOOBS!: Dec 10, 2013

Mandrel posted:

yeah that�s true, i know this is very much privileged whining and me a few years ago would punch softer me now in his idiot face

not privileged if you worked for it just make sure you care about stuff all that hard work was worth god bless

# ? May 17, 2018 08:40

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