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Yeah, I couldn't comment on Amazons, I haven't played them. The T1 Voidtech mod is actually real good for a lot of units; 20% evasion and being able to walk through cover is great for both ranged and melee units, since you can move into flanking positions/get into stabbing range much easier. Vanguard Troopers get jetpack-lite very quickly with it, for example. Another is that Dvar Trenchers can become even more ludicrously tough to kill, and I imagine you can do some nasty poo poo like setting up a trench, moving up and into a flank thanks to phasewalk, and then having a Bulwark take position in the abandoned trench.
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Aug 9, 2019 08:28
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The Secret Tech being "optional" is an interesting stance, because, well, it says "Secret" right in the name. I see the value of a situation where you're facing off against a Dvar player, seeing them field the usual Dvar stuff of guns and explosives, and then suddenly some Hero sniper shows up, turns one of your guys into a freakish virus dog, and then virus bombs start coming in. I guess it's a sort of disconnect where you want this "class" you're picking to give you a clear and tangible benefit right from the get-go, like in AoW3, because ideally you're thinking of using your Secret Tech stuff from the start instead of some hypothetical situation in the future where guns and bombs aren't cutting the mustard.
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Aug 9, 2019 12:28
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Yeah, it's a definite change of feel in that Heroes have a shitload of potential in terms of power (damage skills, flank immunity skill, potential 4th mod, vehicles), but on their own aren't that gamechanging. That said, APC Heroes have consistently been the top stack leaders in my playstyle thanks to all their support abilities, especially if you're playing Vanguard with their PUGs.
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Aug 9, 2019 13:03
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Cheers, Gerblyn! You guys are doing great! And now we know you're adding a new Xenoplague mod; I'm just hoping it's something basically like toxin rounds or whatever so early game shooters will at least have some flavor.
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Aug 9, 2019 13:09
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Holy poo poo the second Vanguard campaign mission sure is a jump from the first. The first missions seem to be basically RPG-heavy, wandering all over, making friends fairly easily, somewhat compact to the point that you can maybe just have like two or three colonies. The second is some proper 4X territory war poo poo, and you better know how to expand and even forward-settle in order to keep up.
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Aug 9, 2019 19:04
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This might be hubris, especially considering that the rankings say I'm dead last, but I haven't encountered anything so far in the second campaign mission as Vanguard on Advanced difficulty that 4 modded Troopers, a PUG, and an APC Hero couldn't beat without losing a single man. Some battles were tight, sure, but sheer firepower keeps winning the day.
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Aug 9, 2019 22:37
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What's the defense score calculation anyway? I was weighing my options between transitioning from Jetpack Troopers to Gunships, but I only had the Voidtech map building that gives you an extra shield point per unit tier. With that in mind, my Gunships would've had 2 armor/2 shields versus the 2a/1s for Jetpack Troopers. Other things to consider would be that Troopers can take cover and do Overwatch, while Gunships could use all three slots for damage mods.
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Aug 10, 2019 09:04
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I also love how Agile Overwatch makes Bulwarks real good at controlling the battlefield. AOW means that can walk the full blue range and still hit anything with 3 shots, and they also have a Firearms weapon so you can customize your ammo type for whatever needs killing. You can pretty much "flank" with them by marching them around a flank, toggling OW, and then watch whatever poor bastard they're locked on gamble on either shooting back or trying to run away.
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Aug 10, 2019 09:10
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victrix posted:Seen multiple comments about the strength of early units juiced up for late game Highly-modded T3 and T4 units are terrifying juggernauts of death, but they are also insanely impractical to field. A boatload of production and Cosmite for each one. Also, what the hell? The Vanguard campaign only goes for two missions?
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Aug 10, 2019 14:50
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victrix posted:What about un- or minimally modded? I'll use the T1 Vanguard Trooper versus the T3 Vanguard Walker for this example, mainly because the Walker has a kinetic repeating weapon like the Trooper does, while the Gunship is a T2 unit and therefore a bit more practical to field. Trooper - 40 energy, 150 production, 40HP, 1 armor, 32 move - shoots for 9 kinetic, 7 range, 90% accuracy - grenade with 8 kinetic, 3 range, AoE of 1, Stagger, Demolisher, single action - Overwatch and Steady Aim (+15% accuracy while in cover) - can take cover Walker - 140 energy, 440 production, 25 Cosmite, 60HP, 3 armor, 24 move - shoots for 11 kinetic, 7 range, 90% accuracy - rocket with 20 kinetic, 9 range, AoE of 1, Massive Stagger, Demolisher, single action - resistant to psychic powers, weak to arc - Overwatch - usually can't take cover That's roughly about 3 Troopers to 1 Walker, and the Walker has more utility thanks to the near-max range rocket with stagger and demo. Max modded Troopers with, say, Jetpacks, ammo of choice, and Rail Accelerators (+1 range, +10% accuracy and damage) would probably be rated around 2 Troopers per Walker in terms of energy and production, with significantly more Cosmite. That'll give them the same amount of kinetic damage per full action bar, with Jetpacks more or less giving them at least one full salvo of shooting, while the Walker's circumstances may not be so generous. In addition, the ammo for the Troopers can be either kinetic, thermal, or arc, so you can tailor them to the specific enemy. All in all, modded T1s (at least, Vanguard Troopers) cost a lot more Cosmite overall but are probably significantly more efficient because they can be fielded at least 2 to 1, with the two units being able to heavily damage/kill a unit on their own while the T3 can gently caress a specific unit up badly. I think it's a measure of Cosmite production; if you can build T3s regularly and still have the Cosmite to give them a single mod, they'll beat out T1s in sheer power.
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Aug 10, 2019 15:39
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It sucks that Vanguard Walkers have 24 movespeed, but thankfully Laser Tanks have a 9-range attack to encourage anyone sitting pretty to come out or die a burny death.
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Aug 10, 2019 16:08
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Vanguard Purifiers do NOT get a cool jetpack graphic when they are equipped with one and I have never been more disappointed in my life.
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Aug 10, 2019 17:37
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I just found out that the Military Engineering Guild will give armor bonuses to Specialist and Skirmisher units at level 3 and onwards. Some Reddit post claimed that due to how defensive stats add up (Thanks Gerbyln BTW!), reaching 7 total defensive stats (armor, shields, and resistance) basically doubles your EHP. This is a multiple, apparently, so if you can somehow get 14 total defensive stats, you'll be...tripling? your EHP, which sounds terrifying. So yeah, even if you're playing on a Frontier planet (no landmarks at all), 2 production sectors in a colony will definitely make it an optimal place for producing units, outside of sheer speed.
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Aug 10, 2019 19:04
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I think the last major thing escaping my understanding in this game is the sector exploitation system. Apparently, just because a bonus building gives a resource of a certain type in a sector, it doesn't necessarily mean the corresponding exploitation is the best pick because if you don't have the right kind of terrain in the sector, you can only level it up so much? Like, imagine a sector with Mountain and Fungal terrain. Mountain provides production, but Fungal isn't, so at best I can only level said exploitation and attached specialty building up to 3 in that sector? Is that right?
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Aug 10, 2019 20:25
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Gerblyn posted:That's right. You can always get a sector to level 2, but to get to 3 and 4 you need to match the terrain to the type of sector. Wolpertinger posted:Bonus buildings that aren't pre-built exploitations (which are generally like monuments/dungeons), give 10 in any sector and 5 more for the right sector, and an extra 5 is nice but not so nice that you want to add something totally incompatible, one matching terrain type is plenty, though if a level 5 is possible in that sector i'd weigh the value of that 5 production/research/energy vs the benefits of level 5. However, sometimes you just need a resource and there are no sectors that can support level 5 for the lacking resource in question nearby in which case you just gotta settle for level 4. No food, energy, or research sectors at all tends to end poorly. Sometimes you get dumb stuff like every single zone around you being a perfect food or production zone and just having no good research spots anywhere - it's better to have a mediocre research spot than way too much food and no research. Cheers, thanks to you both! So I definitely should be placing my exploitations on sectors with at least 2 of the corresponding resource pips, while 3 or more pips basically mean I can max out the sector level faster. Also a bit late but Dvar Heroes can get Stagger Immunity very quickly along with some skills that make them very tough in cover. If you have clear LoS and Smart Rounds and the like, they'll keep hitting for six every turn on any target.
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Aug 11, 2019 07:28
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I lucked big time into a Dvar settlement in my Promethean Vanguard game, and it's frustrating in the sense that I can see that a Dvar start/acquire Vanguard flow would've been way better in terms of synergy because Dvar have gently caress-all laser weaponry but Vanguard units have a decent spread of explosive weapons. That said, Trenchers with Vanguard nano-injectors and armor plating are bullshit tough to dislodge, and Troopers with the cheap Dvar -50% LoS shooting penalty mod are a godsend if you don't have a Paragon ally for Smart Bullets. I can then transition to Bulwarks from Troopers, and Laser Tanks still shine as fantastic sniper units even if I can't field stronger Rocket Artillery since I don't have explosive mods. Or I can armor my Bulwarks up and send them up front while Jetpack Troopers cover the flanks. The synergy possibilities in this game are so drat good. toasterwarrior fucked around with this message at 10:17 on Aug 11, 2019 |
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Aug 11, 2019 10:09
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NPC faction quests causing spawners to appear near my settlements is definitely a good case for just roasting the bastards, especially since they're Psi-Fish and the Growth and therefore of barely any utility to me as Vanguard/Dvar.
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Aug 11, 2019 11:46
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MiddleOne posted:They instantly de-spawn if you reject the mission. Odd, I swear they just stayed nonetheless, and the choice was basically whether to anger rival NPC factions by doing it or not. Thanks for the info!
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Aug 11, 2019 12:14
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How many heroes are there in the pool for each race, anyway? Also, I wish there was a way to have heroes join in with no skill points invested; the only ones I use are those with piloting (stack leaders in APCs) or pure ranged skills (stronger infantry -> combat vehicles, or vehicles right out). Hybrids, melee heroes, and those with weird skills I pretty much pass on.
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Aug 11, 2019 20:21
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Eschatos posted:So what's the secret to having effective combat units in the early-mid game as Dvar? Trenchers are decently survivable but terrible at killing stuff, and Bulwarks/Foremen are the opposite. In just about every fair fight I'm losing at least one unit, and the Assembly enemy on the first campaign map is proving a massive pain in the rear end. Bulwarks are really powerful killers that can always fire off three shots through overwatch as long as you move in up to blue hexes, which is a very generous amount of movement. Make sure they're equipped with the best mods you have: in particular, Rail Accelerators (damage, range, and accuracy) and the Dvar targeting mod (-50% LoS penalty) will give them excellent chances of hitting with all their overwatch shots whether the enemy is in cover, running up to you, or firing back. The key is making sure that, on turn 1 or 2, they're covering your Trenchers (which should be just at the tip of the enemy's attack range) with overwatch without being in range of the enemy themselves. The Trenchers should then be sitting in battlefield cover or in their own trenches and in defense mode (try not to use the trench ability from the get go; this way you can bait grenades from the enemy, if any, leaving you able to trench up in the following turn). If the enemy neglects a flank, blue move your Bulwark into their sides and toggle overwatch on them. Anything that tries to do anything will end up eating three shots from your flanking Bulwark and probably die since they do a lot of damage. Also IMO Foremen are rear end, they need to get into melee range to apply heals and have terrible range on their explosives. Your Commander/Hero in an APC will do way better at supporting your army.
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Aug 11, 2019 20:53
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If there's a thing that puzzles me about early-midgame Dvar, it's party composition. 2 Bulwarks, definitely, but should I run two Trenchers or just the one? What else should I fill out the rest of the slots with? Prospectors actually seem cool for combat units since they can ride in, maybe throw a bomb, then smoke out anything beside them with blind and get back to cover with full movement actions.
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Aug 12, 2019 08:28
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Kanos posted:Hero, 2 bulwarks, 2 trenchers, last slot for me is usually either another bulwark/trencher or a random NPC faction unit(of which many are incredibly good). Yeah, I'm trying to avoid that because I want to spice up the party composition, but the Bulwark/Trencher synergy is so ridiculously good and that Agile Overwatch on Bulwarks means you may not even need demolisher units since you can just flank cover. I think one time I tried running a Purifier for AoE work, but found myself extremely unimpressed by the plasma bomb needing full actions, while Bulwarks still outdamaged them thanks to Agile Overwatch. I'm fully expecting Bulwarks to get nerfed now, probably dock them to 24 move or something brutal.
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Aug 12, 2019 08:49
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Kanos posted:This isn't a uniquely Dvar issue. Most early game armies are very samey, honestly - virtually every faction can get away with running a stack of T1s/their token support and have it be a nearly optimal choice(except Dvar, because Bulwarks are crazy good and Foremen are the worst T1 support by a mile). Amazon can run archers/biomancers, Vanguard can run troopers/PUGs, etc. Spice/variety doesn't really enter into it until much later in the game, by design. I'm going to try and run one Plasmoid along 3 Troopers and a PUG for my next go at Promethean Vanguard, at the very least. Between nanites, the defense sensors, and the anti-kinetic plating, they should be complete bastards at tying up the enemy, as well as setting them on fire every time they get hit. Iafeth posted:I find vanguard troopers kind of mediocre, compare to their awesome laser tanks. I mean they should, considering Laser Tanks are elite units.
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Aug 12, 2019 10:57
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Kanos posted:They can attack ground units, but their repeating guns tend to be very weak without the anti-air bonus - using Vanguard as the yardstick, baseline troopers do 9 damage per shot and gunships do 8(!) on their repeaters. Add this to them required to move a lot to build up evasion to not die(because they have poo poo HP and can't use cover and everyone can always see them due to being flyers) and you've got a recipe for "no damage output". Yeah, Jetpack Troopers are the real flanker units since they can move one hex + jetpack range for a full rifle barrage on whatever needs killing. The laser bikes do solid damage, knockback, and stagger, but can't quite put out the damage I want since they don't have repeaters. I suppose I should try Engineers as the forward core of a Vanguard stack one day, since their turrets inherit their mods. 2 Engineers, 2 Troopers, a PUG and a Hero sounds like a solid infantry army.
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Aug 12, 2019 11:43
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Kanos posted:1:1 ratios on PUGs to Engineers works extremely well because of the PUG cooldown reset. Oh poo poo that's nefarious, 4 turrets is a bullshit amount of repeater fire, ahahaha. Thanks for the recommendation, that's real smart!
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Aug 12, 2019 11:48
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I manage to take a PyrX dungeon (giant fire death robot, 2 Dvar Purifiers, 1 Dvar Baron, sonic tank, and angry burny scarab robots) with a vetted stack of 2 Trenchers, 2 Bulwarks, and my APC Commander without losing a man. Yes, I was short one unit, but I had to get the thing ASAP before my bastard Amazon neighbor did. Between the battlefield randomly getting fuel-air-bombed, it was one of the best battles I've ever fought in an tactical game, with my two Trenchers literally staying in their trenches the entire match and catching so much bullshit, but holding on thanks to the one Promethean operation that gives a massive 10 shields to the target unit and makes them immune to fire damage, which meant that they were chipping away at everything while 4 out of the enemy stack couldn't even damage them. 15 or so turns later, the colony it's attached to is now set up with the +1 armor per unit tier landmark facility, the +3 armor for Specialist and Skirmisher industrial sector specialization facility. The Autonom were also in the map, and between them and the Growth, I made fast friends going all Vietnam on the angry weeds. What does this mean? I can mass-produce Bulwarks with 7 armor base, plus 1 armor and auto-healing a fifth of their HP every round thanks to the Autonom self-repair mod, plus another armor from my Dvar racial skill. I don't think I'll need Trenchers anymore...
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Aug 12, 2019 18:31
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Random rear end in a top hat posted:Just keep in mind that some abilities let your enemies completely ignore armor! It's a good thing mech units have 4 resistance against psionics too. Can't facetank all their freaky mind bullshit, but it's good enough that I'll probably kill anything fairly quickly. Mech units also have Arc weakness, but thanks to the high armor, it's around the same total defensive rating against Arc attacks. At least I won't feel totally crippled against Syndicates now thanks to sheer amount of armor.
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Aug 12, 2019 19:36
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I learned to my delight that you can actually target any hex with an attack (hold ALT), which means that my super Bulwarks and their incendiary rounds could sacrifice half their damage in order to tag two or more enemies a space apart with fire damage and potentially the burning effect. This was key in my defense of the aforementioned Promethean tech base that let me create my super Bulwarks and their bullshit high armor rating, where my entire militia garrison was killed, but my defending army of a hero, 4 super Bulwarks, and a nigh-immortal Trencher survived against three stacks of Amazons by refusing to budge from their fortified vantage point while the entire battlefield was constantly exploding in flame. That was a fantastic battle. BTW, this makes Dvar Foremen a bit better than I thought, since I assumed they couldn't free fire their explosives. They're still terrible though.
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Aug 12, 2019 21:32
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Holy poo poo, Dvar Barons count as Specialists. They're definitely slower by Bulwarks by a fair amount but they have more HP and armor, the same weapon, are mech units and therefore benefit from the Autonom self-healing mod, and two extremely potent buffs (extra armor for the rest of the battle, 20% damage and fast movement for 2 turns) that they can use on themselves. I think Agile Overwatch has met its match...
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Aug 12, 2019 21:42
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The Deleter posted:Rolling around with a Promethean Vanguard setup. I'm starting to get into the juicier stuff, but I haven't found a way to work Purifiers or Engineers in, which isn't an issue considering I have a lot of my heroes doing the setting poo poo on fire for my Railgun + Stim + Accuracy against things on fire Troopers to do a ton of work. How would you work that other stuff in? I managed to get a gunship with the incindiary rounds and that's pretty okay against setting multiple ground guys on fire, but I'm sure there's definitely better options. I just don't know what yet! If you have the Military Engineering specialty building in a level 3 or higher sector exploitation, Vanguard Purifiers end up being a much tougher and arguably superior alternative to Vanguard Troopers since they get a plasma repeater gun. Troopers can't benefit from the additional armor bonus, but Purifiers will since they count as Skirmishers. You'll lose range, yes, but you can compensate with their better survivability, and still have access to Jetpacks for flanking. The only issue is that the only plasma damage mod in the game is a high-level Promethean tech, but in the meantime, the early-game Promethean mod that gives massive bonuses for targeting burning enemies will do.
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Aug 12, 2019 21:47
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Finally finished my first random map game as Dvar Promethean, hard difficulty, land-only landmass. It was a grueling 90 turns, and while I ran my neighbor Amazon over because she has terrible counters to mass heavy armor Bulwarks with fire bullets, as well as fending off an invasion attempt from AI Jack Gelder and his...PUG spam, the three Syndicate factions were the ones that teamed up against me in the end rush. Predictably, they gave me the most trouble as their main damage types were straight-up counters to my mech armies, but I fended them off in the end due to sheer firepower. The closest I had to a disaster was some operation or whatever that hit two stacks defending a colony of mine with Insanity, but I managed to pull through thanks to health regen and my own defensive operation shielding everyone so the friendly fire only got one Bulwark. Things I learned: 1) The Bulwark's Concussive Shot is probably overpowered, yeah. 2) Overwatch is shorter than most attack ranges (7), so you can't expect the enemy to just walk into your kill zones unless they're short-ranged. 3) Dvar explosive tech is pretty much useless until you can get Rocket Artillery online, maybe sooner if you can get some rocket launchers or other explosive abilities that are actually reliable and have good range. When you do, however, you will dictate the terms of the engagement or the enemy will get repeatedly hammered by insanely-powerful death rockets from across the map. 4) I imagine a Dvar player acquiring a Vanguard colony would be able to produce Engineers with explosive upgrades for their missile turrets, which sounds like the most bullshit thing ever with the 2x PUG/2x Engineer army composition. The one thing I want is a map option where the map doesn't wrap around. Holy poo poo did it get tiring trying to defend all that land from every side. I'd like the possibility of a proper corner start in this game, because I think the AI is terrible at dealing with naval stuff and building boats is super fussy, TBH.
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Aug 13, 2019 21:48
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Cynic Jester posted:7 is above average Fair, I suppose in my head the "generic rifle squad" was the average, but the game has plenty of vomiting bugs or whatever that can't shoot that far.
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Aug 13, 2019 22:51
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juggalo baby coffin posted:man i'm always at the bottom of the capability rankings, idk what i'm doing wrong. I guess I don't spam enough colonisers? Likewise man, I'm sure the AI gets resource bonuses, which is the main factor. It doesn't matter a drat thing (unless for the Superweapon victory) if they use all that production to make 4 haphazardly modded stacks that you can beat with 2 of yours that you mod and use well, though.
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Aug 14, 2019 12:13
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It also takes some serious effort to get to 16 pop. I imagine most people should aim for a 3-sector build when planning their colonies at best, while aggressive/pro players might even settle for 2-sector builds and instead use feeder colonies to sustain them.
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Aug 14, 2019 13:53
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Cynic Jester posted:A single food exploitation will get you to 16 pretty quickly. Two will do that, then get all your other cities to 16 pretty quickly. Playing ICS seems like a waste, considering how many turns you'll spend on infrastructure in each new city. Sure, you no longer pay upkeep but there's an opportunity cost to building colonizers(cosmite That a fact? poo poo, what exploitations to build and whatever, I think, are where I'm still struggling to learn. Would even a single food icon sector be good enough to sustain a colony to 16 pop quickly?
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Aug 14, 2019 14:28
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). If they didn't cost cosmite I'd be all for ICS being the bomb, but 30 cosmite is a lot of mods and mods win you combat. A single modded out unit is usually way more effective than two unmodded ones.
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Oh, I just remembered the one thing above all that I want: please make the Generate Energy option actually infinite. Good god was my brain melting down at that point in the final stretch of my Dvar game.
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Aug 14, 2019 14:33
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drat, that's good to know, thank you. Generally I prefer a 2x industrial + factory center start, especially if there's a +1 shield/armor building right by the HQ sector. Lean on food pickups for the fast boost to 8 pop, then pump out colonizers/troops for the second hero onwards. It definitely has its disadvantages, particularly when it comes to splitting production between troops and colonizers. EDIT: Thanks Gerblyn!
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Aug 14, 2019 15:36
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Making friends with the weird NPC factions you need for the diplomacy victory? Also involves murdering those they hate, as it turns out.
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Aug 14, 2019 16:29
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I reckon just one more range for both medkits and bombs for Dvar Foremen will make them competitive versus Bulwarks, along with Bulwarks possibly losing Concussive Shot. Another thing: as much potential Heroes have for becoming very powerful combat units, I can't help but reserve them as stack leaders and army buffers, at least for Dvar and Vanguard. The benefits they can give while in an APC are just too drat good.
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Aug 15, 2019 09:29
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trypsin posted:I've started to feel the opposite.. even the APC, with its amazing support powers, quickly starts to play like you've just taken an above average tier 2 specialist. If you've launched the healing nanites and triggered the sensor scan (admittedly both *very* powerful), you then feel like the hero doesn't have any more to contribute for a couple of turns while they reload. If they had to spend their turn to use a tactical operation, the APC would be amazing, but since that's not required, they don't have any other real damage or contribution once they've thrown the grenade (unless you find a good secondary weapon), and it's risky to use them as mobile cover since they don't have any particular survivability boost. There's some very good passive skills (especially Dvar Siege Master ... which doesn't apply to the hero in the APC), but they're good enough to take even on a more damaging hero build who can provide other tangible benefits like killing enemies and soaking damage. In my current Vanguard game, I lucked out into a thermal rocket launcher and it's been killer on my commander and his APC, along with his PUG buddy. PUGs are pretty much the best reason not to switch from an APC as Vanguard, I reckon. That said, I do want to suss out the part of the game where healing drones and sensor scanning are no longer as useful, and I imagine it's when your units can self-sustain like crazy and you have access to an easy 20% accuracy boost on your units, through mods or whatever. After that, it's down to whether your faction has good vehicles (Dvar) or not, though invariably I imagine they end up in one anyway since some of the T3 vehicles are absolute monsters in a good pilot's hands. toasterwarrior fucked around with this message at 11:25 on Aug 15, 2019 |
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Aug 15, 2019 11:19
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