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sockpuppetclock
Sep 12, 2010
\o/
w00t!!


I dunno how people actually stopped reading because of Yamai. Like it was ridiculous in the bad way but everything else about the manga is so cute and/or heartwarming up to and beyond that point there wasn't really a reason for me to get hung up on it at all.

e: me reading this manga

sockpuppetclock fucked around with this message at 02:03 on May 25, 2018

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Captain Invictus
Apr 5, 2005


Clever Betty

Yamai is an exceptionally creepy character and not a single loving thing about her was funny. There's two instances of her being remotely entertaining in the entire series before going back to being the worst(bickering with nakanaka, and when she was so straight-faced about being right with all those test questions but was 100% wrong on all of them), and those sorts of things could easily be done by someone less unsettling. Her few chapters of introduction are starkly different from every single other character in the series, and not in a good way. So early in the series, I can absolutely see someone being turned away by it.

rare Magic card l00k
Jan 3, 2011

Me uni a la Revolucion #RXT


el sabe ...


sockpuppetclock posted:

I dunno how people actually stopped reading because of Yamai. Like it was ridiculous in the bad way but everything else about the manga is so cute and/or heartwarming up to and beyond that point there wasn't really a reason for me to get hung up on it at all.

e: me reading this manga


To be fair, Yamai is three chapters in a row. I can see going "Okay this is the third goddamn chapter in a row like this, I'm done."

Shinjobi
Jul 10, 2008




Gravy Boat 2k

Captain Invictus posted:

Yamai is an exceptionally creepy character and not a single loving thing about her was funny. There's two instances of her being remotely entertaining in the entire series before going back to being the worst(bickering with nakanaka, and when she was so straight-faced about being right with all those test questions but was 100% wrong on all of them), and those sorts of things could easily be done by someone less unsettling. Her few chapters of introduction are starkly different from every single other character in the series, and not in a good way. So early in the series, I can absolutely see someone being turned away by it.

I don't like Yamai, she's a clunky addition to any chapter she's in, and I agree her introduction to the series was weird and bad. That said, I don't know if she warrants a reaction this strong. Doesn't change your point, but I just thought I'd give my two cents.

EVGA Longoria
Dec 25, 2005

Let's go exploring!



Thanks for making this thread, because it made me read this, and it's good. Other people should also read this.

ZepiaEltnamOberon
Oct 25, 2010


transcending
transcending
transcending
i'm
transcending




sockpuppetclock posted:

I dunno how people actually stopped reading because of Yamai. Like it was ridiculous in the bad way but everything else about the manga is so cute and/or heartwarming up to and beyond that point there wasn't really a reason for me to get hung up on it at all.

e: me reading this manga


I don't think it was just Yamai, though Yamai was a large part.

It was just the general treatment of Tadano by pretty much everyone who wasn't Komi or Najimi that kept some peeps I knew from continuing on.

DisDisDis
Dec 21, 2013

open your mind

open your heart


It was hosed up when Yamai garroted Tadano but I like where the manga took Komi and Najimi's relationship in the aftermath

Captain Invictus
Apr 5, 2005


Clever Betty

Shinjobi posted:

I don't like Yamai, she's a clunky addition to any chapter she's in, and I agree her introduction to the series was weird and bad. That said, I don't know if she warrants a reaction this strong. Doesn't change your point, but I just thought I'd give my two cents.
having experience with a stalker before (though admittedly not this absurd) I tend to severely dislike that character archetype to begin with, and Yamai is a particularly bad example of it in an otherwise completely tonally different series.

That said, outside of occasional really bad bits (collecting komi's hair or something at one point iirc) I feel like an editor told the author to tone it the gently caress down after her introduction since it never gets as literally knives-out as it was in the beginning.

It also makes me wonder how they'd handle it in an anime adaptation, which I feel like the rest of the series is totally made for. Maybe just cut the intro out entirely.

Shinjobi
Jul 10, 2008




Gravy Boat 2k

Captain Invictus posted:

having experience with a stalker before (though admittedly not this absurd) I tend to severely dislike that character archetype to begin with, and Yamai is a particularly bad example of it in an otherwise completely tonally different series.

That said, outside of occasional really bad bits (collecting komi's hair or something at one point iirc) I feel like an editor told the author to tone it the gently caress down after her introduction since it never gets as literally knives-out as it was in the beginning.

It also makes me wonder how they'd handle it in an anime adaptation, which I feel like the rest of the series is totally made for. Maybe just cut the intro out entirely.

Mayyyybe I'm just watching the right shows, but it feels like a lot of recent adaptations try to tone down some of the rougher parts of a manga's start. I imagine Yamai would totally fall under that. Overall I'd say either the editor or hindsight got back to the creator and things were toned down, but it's definitely been for the better.

Explosions
Apr 20, 2015



A) Everyone acts like Manbagi is improved by no longer having tiger stripes on her face, that is insane, who would ever think that.

B)

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.




Komi reminds me of my cat.

Captain Invictus
Apr 5, 2005


Clever Betty

Given the amount of times she spontaneously sprouts cat ears, maybe it's not a coincidence

Burnt Poffin
Oct 10, 2012


I've been reading this series for some time, being introduced to it through Ragnar Homsar's avatar, while following one of the Etrian Odyssey LPs. I'd love to see an anime of this, but it'd probably only be 12 episodes, and not cover much, unless it skips quite a bit.

Enjoyed the komi-eyes on her mother on the latest chapter. We need more backstory chapters with her, and Komi's dad, in high school.

gimme the GOD DAMN candy
Jul 1, 2007

Ask me about the hate crime perpetrated against a gay black man, and how it was a real hate crime and totally not fabricated. I am well acquainted with the facts of this actual hate crime which actually took place in actuality.

i could really sympathize with komi's mom in that flashback, because i fell in love with the dad too

HenryEx
Mar 24, 2009

...your cybernetic implants, the only beauty in that meat you call "a body"...


Grimey Drawer

Give me more Komi's Dad

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWqKPWO5T4o

Unlucky7
Jul 11, 2006

Don't worry my friends. I will be your shield.

Fallen Rib

Pollyanna posted:

Komi reminds me of my cat.

Komi reminds me of this cat.

https://twitter.com/curiouszelda/st...1904435201?s=21

Torquemadras
Jun 3, 2013



Whelp. Recently discovered this and went through all the chapters. This is absolutely adorable, I just can't get enough of panicking goofballs vibrating at incredible speed. Also, a healthy supply of and .
I'd really like to see an anime of this, but I have no idea how they could even get the narration right...

It's really hard to pick a favorite character here! Probably Avatar of Chaos Najimi.

Wark Say
Feb 22, 2013


Zofia Today
Alm: Human Disaster


Lipstick Apathy

I like this. This manga is cute. Yamai I can do without but on the whole I'm glad that, for the most part, she's been (as Cap'n Invictus put it) basically backgrounded.

Also, how is this not in the OP?

Mentat Radnor
Apr 24, 2008

~Water flowers every day~


I'm not nearly caught up yet, but this manga is very good so I'm glad everyone kept talking about it until I started reading. I relate the most to Komi's dad.

ZenMasterBullshit
Nov 2, 2011

Ziggy Hero!
Ziggy! Save! Everyone!


It's a little hosed up that Yu Narukami and Kanji just showed up in this manga out of nowhere and are now openly gay and the protagonists and my favorite characters but hey, it's the way the world works sometimes.

SatansBestBuddy
Sep 26, 2010

by FactsAreUseless


It's a pity nobody translated her name as Comi-san. Like it's right there on the first two page spread.

It's too late now, it would just look weird.

Captain Invictus
Apr 5, 2005


Clever Betty

Wark Say posted:

I like this. This manga is cute. Yamai I can do without but on the whole I'm glad that, for the most part, she's been (as Cap'n Invictus put it) basically backgrounded.

Also, how is this not in the OP?



because I hadn't seen it before

Creamed Cormp
Jan 8, 2011

by LITERALLY AN ADMIN


yeah I tried reading that manga but the constant transphobia leaves a real bad taste so uh yeah I guess I won't be reading anymore

Kibibit
Sep 10, 2009

You must be a friend that's good at shredding!


Creamed Cormp posted:

yeah I tried reading that manga but the constant transphobia leaves a real bad taste so uh yeah I guess I won't be reading anymore

There's definitely times where it's the author for sure (like the "Why are you going to the women's changing room" scenes), so while they're few and far between, I'd definitely get why those gags would turn someone off.

The pronouns on the other hand, I'm 95% sure that's more the scanslator than the author, as I'm pretty sure Japanese pronouns aren't gendered.

Mirage
Oct 27, 2000

At least CyberLowtax likes me.

Iím rereading this now, and Iíd forgotten that when Katai was first introduced, Tadano watched him freak everyone out and just thought, ďAh, another one of these.Ē

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.




Kibibit posted:

There's definitely times where it's the author for sure (like the "Why are you going to the women's changing room" scenes), so while they're few and far between, I'd definitely get why those gags would turn someone off.

The pronouns on the other hand, I'm 95% sure that's more the scanslator than the author, as I'm pretty sure Japanese pronouns aren't gendered.

Also, it's important to remember these are teenagers of another society who might not know how to deal with this.

On the other hand, everyone seems to like Najimi and be friends with her and Najimi herself seem to be happy and shows not a bit of angst or struggle. That's good, right?

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


Yeah, Najimi is fun, instigates the fun and hilarious moments of the story and is just a fun goof in general and more importantly, is cute.

Agronox
Feb 4, 2005


MonsieurChoc posted:

On the other hand, everyone seems to like Najimi and be friends with her and Najimi herself seem to be happy and shows not a bit of angst or struggle. That's good, right?

Yamai intimidates her in one chapter, somewhere in the 20s I think, but I guess thatís more Yamaiís shittiness overall than anything Najimi-specific.

Captain Invictus
Apr 5, 2005


Clever Betty

Compendium posted:

Yeah, Najimi is fun, instigates the fun and hilarious moments of the story and is just a fun goof in general and more importantly, is cute.

Also basically everyone accepts them as they are. There's the occasional scene where tadano is like "no you can't go in the women's changing room" but as a whole everyone loves najimi regardless of the gender. Sure as hell better than some other depictions of trans folks in anime or manga, like, say, the loving kamabakka kingdom in one piece.

DisDisDis
Dec 21, 2013

open your mind

open your heart


what a high bar to pass lol

Cipher Pol 9
Oct 9, 2006




Kibibit posted:

There's definitely times where it's the author for sure (like the "Why are you going to the women's changing room" scenes), so while they're few and far between, I'd definitely get why those gags would turn someone off.

The pronouns on the other hand, I'm 95% sure that's more the scanslator than the author, as I'm pretty sure Japanese pronouns aren't gendered.

There are gendered pronouns in Japanese, kare for he/him and kanojo for she/her, but they aren't used as often as we use them in casual conversation. Pronouns can be omitted half the time based on context, they can use non-gendered pronouns, or most commonly they'll just use that person's name. That's why it's super easy to do the 'uncertain gender' thing in Japanese and way more awkward in English since they/them isn't very common yet.

DisDisDis
Dec 21, 2013

open your mind

open your heart


Captain Invictus posted:

Also basically everyone accepts them as they are. There's the occasional scene where tadano is like "no you can't go in the women's changing room" but as a whole everyone loves najimi regardless of the gender. Sure as hell better than some other depictions of trans folks in anime or manga, like, say, the loving kamabakka kingdom in one piece.

this is a dumb way to frame the discussion. Weird bathroom jokes don't become not weird if you fill up the 'cast is nice to trans character' meter enough. I like Najimi and their existence was a big part of me wanting to read the manga. The manga also mines Tadano being weird about their gender for comedy, that's just a fact. I've forgotten the specifics of it but I thought the bit when Tadano sees them in HS for the first time was p reasonable and not mean spirited. By contrast the changing room bit feels really bad to me because it undermines the way the rest of the cast and the manga in general treat Najimi. Like, the punchline is to a really standard ecchi joke setup where the sneaky pervert character is trying to peep on the girls locker room or w/e and the straight man protagonist grabs them by the shirt collar and goes 'not so fast' and we the audience laugh. Except Najimi isn't ever portrayed by the manga to be that archetype (to its credit) and none of the girls treat Najimi heading to the lockers with them as at all out of the ordinary, and they'd obviously look way more out of place in the mens'. But the scene ends right there with the concluding text box that's like "in the end they used the single occupancy" iirc, legitimizing Tadano's viewpoint.
That's the one that really sticks out as bad in my memory but I've seen a lot of people say they felt similar about other jokes about Najimi.
The manga does good and bad things with Najimi and they both exist without cancelling each other out and we should be able to discuss that without saying "well at least it's not as bad as this comically horrible looking trans joke bit from one piece."

Kibibit
Sep 10, 2009

You must be a friend that's good at shredding!


DisDisDis posted:

this is a dumb way to frame the discussion. Weird bathroom jokes don't become not weird if you fill up the 'cast is nice to trans character' meter enough. I like Najimi and their existence was a big part of me wanting to read the manga. The manga also mines Tadano being weird about their gender for comedy, that's just a fact. I've forgotten the specifics of it but I thought the bit when Tadano sees them in HS for the first time was p reasonable and not mean spirited. By contrast the changing room bit feels really bad to me because it undermines the way the rest of the cast and the manga in general treat Najimi. Like, the punchline is to a really standard ecchi joke setup where the sneaky pervert character is trying to peep on the girls locker room or w/e and the straight man protagonist grabs them by the shirt collar and goes 'not so fast' and we the audience laugh. Except Najimi isn't ever portrayed by the manga to be that archetype (to its credit) and none of the girls treat Najimi heading to the lockers with them as at all out of the ordinary, and they'd obviously look way more out of place in the mens'. But the scene ends right there with the concluding text box that's like "in the end they used the single occupancy" iirc, legitimizing Tadano's viewpoint.
That's the one that really sticks out as bad in my memory but I've seen a lot of people say they felt similar about other jokes about Najimi.
The manga does good and bad things with Najimi and they both exist without cancelling each other out and we should be able to discuss that without saying "well at least it's not as bad as this comically horrible looking trans joke bit from one piece."
I agree pretty heavily with this sentiment tbh, and in fact in my original post, I think I was less trying to make the point of "They consistently treat Najimi in a way that doesn't bother me at all" (which isn't true at all), and more that the most glaring and repetitive transphobia you'll run into is actually from the translation (cramming "he/she", instead of "she" or at least the gender ambiguous "they"), rather than any original intent by the author of the piece.

Overall my opinion of how they treat Najimi leans towards "Pretty decent" in that, in a manga literally driven by gimmicks, Najimi's trans-ness is not actually her gimmick. Instead, she's pretty consistently just the troublemaker of the group. On the other hand, It's hard not to wish the scenes that push it down to "pretty decent" ceased to exist, since the manga would be none the worse without them.

Kibibit fucked around with this message at 02:40 on May 28, 2018

Bob Quixote
Jul 7, 2006

This post has been inspected and certified by the Dino-Sorcerer

Grimey Drawer

Kibibit posted:

I agree pretty heavily with this sentiment tbh, and in fact in my original post, I think I was less trying to make the point of "They consistently treat Najimi in a way that doesn't bother me at all" (which isn't true at all), and more that the most glaring and repetitive transphobia you'll run into is actually from the translation (cramming "he/she", instead of "she" or at least the gender ambiguous "they"), rather than any original intent by the author of the piece.

Overall my opinion of how they treat Najimi leans towards "Pretty decent" in that, in a manga literally driven by gimmicks, Najimi's trans-ness is not actually her gimmick. Instead, she's pretty consistently just the troublemaker of the group. On the other hand, It's hard not to wish the scenes that push it down to "pretty decent" ceased to exist, since the manga would be none the worse without them.

Is Najima supposed to be trans? I always thought their whole gender ambiguity situation was a play on that trope that you see all the time in manga where the main character will have a childhood friend and think they are a boy/girl and then when they meet again in high school it turns out it was the opposite... but since Najima is simultaneously everyone's childhood friend at the same time they have something like Schrodinger's gender since they were perceived differently by different people.

At least that's how I read the situation when the character was first introduced anyway and Najima hasn't ever really had any sort of spotlight time where that situation was ever a plot issue that needed to be cleared up.

DisDisDis
Dec 21, 2013

open your mind

open your heart


I always read them as nonbinary but I think criticisms kind of apply regardless of how you read them.

The thing I most want is more char development for them because outside of their individual becoming friends with Komi arcs all the side characters basically just exist as their gimmicks and Najimi never really got an arc like that so they've pretty much just been the social butterfly funny mischief maker forever.

Captain Invictus
Apr 5, 2005


Clever Betty

DisDisDis posted:

this is a dumb way to frame the discussion. Weird bathroom jokes don't become not weird if you fill up the 'cast is nice to trans character' meter enough. I like Najimi and their existence was a big part of me wanting to read the manga. The manga also mines Tadano being weird about their gender for comedy, that's just a fact. I've forgotten the specifics of it but I thought the bit when Tadano sees them in HS for the first time was p reasonable and not mean spirited. By contrast the changing room bit feels really bad to me because it undermines the way the rest of the cast and the manga in general treat Najimi. Like, the punchline is to a really standard ecchi joke setup where the sneaky pervert character is trying to peep on the girls locker room or w/e and the straight man protagonist grabs them by the shirt collar and goes 'not so fast' and we the audience laugh. Except Najimi isn't ever portrayed by the manga to be that archetype (to its credit) and none of the girls treat Najimi heading to the lockers with them as at all out of the ordinary, and they'd obviously look way more out of place in the mens'. But the scene ends right there with the concluding text box that's like "in the end they used the single occupancy" iirc, legitimizing Tadano's viewpoint.
That's the one that really sticks out as bad in my memory but I've seen a lot of people say they felt similar about other jokes about Najimi.
The manga does good and bad things with Najimi and they both exist without cancelling each other out and we should be able to discuss that without saying "well at least it's not as bad as this comically horrible looking trans joke bit from one piece."
Yeah, you're right. I suppose I more meant the series handles a gender ambiguous character way better(most of the time) than I've seen in other series, the kamabakka kingdom thing was just what immediately came to mind since they brought them back in the last handful of chapters, and it's a particularly grotesque example.

Captain Invictus
Apr 5, 2005


Clever Betty

DisDisDis posted:

I always read them as nonbinary but I think criticisms kind of apply regardless of how you read them.

The thing I most want is more char development for them because outside of their individual becoming friends with Komi arcs all the side characters basically just exist as their gimmicks and Najimi never really got an arc like that so they've pretty much just been the social butterfly funny mischief maker forever.
They're explicitly an ambiguously gendered person, though Tadano treats them as a guy because that's who he had as a childhood friend.

I think their thing is "I'm always doing things with everyone, my schedule is super packed every day!" What would you like their character-expansion mini-arc to be? A day in the life of Najimi, juggling thirty best friends on a daily basis? Actually, that sounds pretty good.

edit: wait, didn't Najimi say "no thanks, I'm a guy" to the dude who confessed to them early on? Or was that more "translation liberties"? Because that's the only time I can recall them making any specific comment about their gender.

The Lord of Hats
Aug 22, 2010



Najimi is a lovecraftian eldritch god that decided to use its powers to be the childhood friend of everyone in Japan instead of driving people insane. Ia! Ia! Najimi ftagn!

But on a sincere note, I think DisDisDis has the right of it. I think that some of what happens makes sense from the perspective of "Teenagers are not sure how to react to this", but that isn't what's really being aimed for. In the end, the gags about it aren't really great. Mikes ahead of other series, but that bar is pretty much underground.

quote:

edit: wait, didn't Najimi say "no thanks, I'm a guy" to the dude who confessed to them early on? Or was that more "translation liberties"? Because that's the only time I can recall them making any specific comment about their gender.

I think they said the opposite just a bit earlier, when Tadano first asked about it. Najimi is whatever Najimi feels like in that particular moment.

The Lord of Hats fucked around with this message at 03:18 on May 28, 2018

skaianDestiny
Jan 13, 2017

beep boop


Najimi could have been done better, yes. Them and Yamai (more so her) are what I can tell would be the main caveats to recommending this series to everyone.

Captain Invictus posted:

They're explicitly an ambiguously gendered person, though Tadano treats them as a guy because that's who he had as a childhood friend.

I think their thing is "I'm always doing things with everyone, my schedule is super packed every day!" What would you like their character-expansion mini-arc to be? A day in the life of Najimi, juggling thirty best friends on a daily basis? Actually, that sounds pretty good.

edit: wait, didn't Najimi say "no thanks, I'm a guy" to the dude who confessed to them early on? Or was that more "translation liberties"? Because that's the only time I can recall them making any specific comment about their gender.

Najimi around the same time also said to Tadano "you're making me wet" while making a lustful face. TBH early Najimi's pretty different compared to their present incarnation, just like most of the manga.

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Agronox
Feb 4, 2005


Captain Invictus posted:

edit: wait, didn't Najimi say "no thanks, I'm a guy" to the dude who confessed to them early on? Or was that more "translation liberties"? Because that's the only time I can recall them making any specific comment about their gender.

Back in chapter 11:

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