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Show me an old-school adventure where the authors had any idea of a level-appropriate challenge.
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Jan 18, 2022 15:27
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IDK, level drain never struck me as an antagonistic DM earworm level threat that seems completely created to gently caress over players from doing something that makes sense, like listening at a door, or the other lovely mimic like creatures or uninteresting cursed items. I confess to having never played where we kept meticulous track of experience though, so maybe losing thousands of xp would feel really bad even beyond the loss in power, which probably isn't that big a deal beyond the mechanical annoyance of tracking it. Like how much more powerful is a level 4 fighter than a level 3 fighter anyway?
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Jan 18, 2022 15:29
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+5% to hit, a dozen hit points if they got lucky, and a save bonus every other level.
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Jan 18, 2022 15:34
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Siivola posted:+5% to hit, a dozen hit points if they got lucky, and a save bonus every other level. Yeah, that's what I thought, none of that seems that horrible beyond just having to track it on the character sheet, which maybe is enough of a pain to never want to use it at table.
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Jan 18, 2022 15:51
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Payndz posted:Level drain makes no sense in the old-school approach to adventures of "you must be this tall (level)" to enter. Great, you just got hit by a Shadow or whatever and now your character is mechanically all but useless within the adventure and doomed to be killed by higher-level dangers. Sadistic rear end in a top hat DMs will be chortling behind their screens, but who ever enjoyed playing against (rather than with) them anyway? Except it was common for people of mixed levels to play in "Ye Olde Schoole" adventures. Wasn't the standard pretty much "if your character dies roll a new one and start over"? or "promote your hench but they're (at least) a level udner you?" A danger that's bad enough to cause you to really steer clear of it until you've recuperated, done some more adventuring, and then prepared carefully for tackling it again doesn't seem too out there.
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Jan 18, 2022 16:03
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As far as I understand, level drain was invented to handle PCs who were overpowered or had nothing to do at high level. There are better ways of dealing with that, so level drain as a mechanic is basically obsolete.
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Jan 18, 2022 16:03
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Siivola posted:Show me an old-school adventure where the authors had any idea of a level-appropriate challenge. Most old school adventures put what level they were intended for on the cover. Yes, level appropriate was a thing back in the day.
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Jan 18, 2022 19:06
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neonchameleon posted:Most old school adventures put what level they were intended for on the cover. Yes, level appropriate was a thing back in the day.
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Jan 18, 2022 19:52
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If you get level drained below the threshold where your character normally gets access to domain management stuff, like your barony or thieves' guild or whatever, does your retinue abandon you mid-mission?
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Jan 18, 2022 19:57
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mellonbread posted:If you get level drained below the threshold where your character normally gets access to domain management stuff, like your barony or thieves' guild or whatever, does your retinue abandon you mid-mission? 
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Jan 18, 2022 20:00
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The reason I ask is that domain management rules are the one place where the GP to XP to levels conversion can be explained narratively in-setting. You get a big pile of money and you invest it in building a castle or opening a wizard dojo or whatever. Level drain reducing your level makes sense in the epistemology of the game world in all other respects - a necromantic creature slurped out some of your energy, making you weaker or worse at spells or whatever. But it introduces problems when that same "drain" is applied to a tangible physical asset that's already been bought and paid for.
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Jan 18, 2022 20:13
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Siivola posted:If they didn't, the character would end up getting a second retinue when they get the lost levels back! Keeping a pet ghost so I am guaranteed infinite financial growth. The ultimate hustle. CEO grindset.
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Jan 18, 2022 20:17
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mellonbread posted:The reason I ask is that domain management rules are the one place where the GP to XP to levels conversion can be explained narratively in-setting. You get a big pile of money and you invest it in building a castle or opening a wizard dojo or whatever. Level drain reducing your level makes sense in the epistemology of the game world in all other respects - a necromantic creature slurped out some of your energy, making you weaker or worse at spells or whatever. But it introduces problems when that same "drain" is applied to a tangible physical asset that's already been bought and paid for.
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Jan 18, 2022 20:25
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neonchameleon posted:Most old school adventures put what level they were intended for on the cover. Yes, level appropriate was a thing back in the day. Yeah, but huge parties of widely disparate levels was common. You wouldn't get level drained out of being able to participate in the module.
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Jan 18, 2022 20:43
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I think level-draining monsters have a niche as enemies that even the most bloodthirsty players will never, ever want to tangle with. You can plop a pack of wraiths down on anything from a key strategic point to a treasury full of +3 swords and 'is this worth engaging with' will remain a genuine question. That's pretty cool. Obviously, this approach requires the DM to make wraith rooms (a) optional and (b) reasonably predictable and/or escapable, but that shouldn't be a problem—practically any dungeon will be full of optional rooms unless it's totally linear, and the enemies (who, helpfully, are almost all extraplanar or undead) can be bound to 'the back half of the room by the treasure chest' or equivalent.
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Jan 18, 2022 21:23
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Level draining monsters gently caress with every character class, rust monsters are most harmful to fighters. Are there monsters that directly threaten casters, like erasing a spell from a wizard's repertoire, or cutting off a cleric's divine link?
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Jan 18, 2022 21:34
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Elephant Parade posted:I think level-draining monsters have a niche as enemies that even the most bloodthirsty players will never, ever want to tangle with. You can plop a pack of wraiths down on anything from a key strategic point to a treasury full of +3 swords and 'is this worth engaging with' will remain a genuine question. That's pretty cool. Obviously, this approach requires the DM to make wraith rooms (a) optional and (b) reasonably predictable and/or escapable, but that shouldn't be a problem—practically any dungeon will be full of optional rooms unless it's totally linear, and the enemies (who, helpfully, are almost all extraplanar or undead) can be bound to 'the back half of the room by the treasure chest' or equivalent. imo the essence of 'old school' design is that there's no critical path - you're not telling a story that relies on any particular challenge being surmounted, so 'we got all the way to the treasure room then noped the gently caress out' is just as good a story as 'we beat the level appropriate encounter and got the treasure'. i ran sailors on the starless sea for my crew and they got to the boat bit (which essentially takes you to the final encounter) and one of the players was like THIS IS THE SOURC EOF THE EVI LTHAT HAS BEEN PLAGUING OUR VILLAGE and burned it and they all went home. And why not?
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Jan 18, 2022 21:48
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mellonbread posted:Level draining monsters gently caress with every character class, rust monsters are most harmful to fighters. Are there monsters that directly threaten casters, like erasing a spell from a wizard's repertoire, or cutting off a cleric's divine link? I like the idea of a spell-eating monster. I'm thinking a living grimoire who flings out razor-sharp pages that draw out magic-users' spells in their blood. Killing it means getting back your own spells and all the other ones it's stolen—as long as you don't ruin the physical book by burning it to a crisp, cutting it in half, et cetera. It'd make a good familiar or (library?) guardian. sebmojo posted:imo the essence of 'old school' design is that there's no critical path - you're not telling a story that relies on any particular challenge being surmounted, so 'we got all the way to the treasure room then noped the gently caress out' is just as good a story as 'we beat the level appropriate encounter and got the treasure'.
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Jan 18, 2022 22:18
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There's a disconnect between "old school" meaning intentional design with multiple paths and methods of resolution, versus the actual rules in some of the older editions that could spit out Wights and other level draining undead as part of the random encounter tables. I'm looking at the tables for Moldvay B/X now and it looks like you could get a flock of Wights as wandering monsters on Dungeon Level Level 3.
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Jan 18, 2022 22:19
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This is probably the umpteenth time this has come up, but how do you sell Thief skills to players? On the face of it, they look bad. 20% chance to move silently? Sure, let me sneak through this room with a 1 in 5 chance the monsters just turn around and clobber me. The explanation I usually see is "ah, but anyone can move silently. Thief skills are for doing it at basically a supernatural level. "Hide in Shadows" is basically "Turn invisible" because there's always a shadow somewhere, right?" Okay, but hide in shadows start off at 10%. It doesn't cross 50% until level 8! You would never ever want to rely on that. Right? So I'm thinking of doing something like like, it's 10% to do it perfectly, and then the effect kind of drops off. Like the next 50% is "you do it, but they know something's up" or "you don't do it, but you can back out without consequence" and then finally you might get some actual pushback for rolling, like, 60%+. PbtA logic, basically. Is that too soft on 'em? Do thieves just push their luck constantly and it's all worth it for that one time they make off with the Arkenstone?
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Jan 18, 2022 22:28
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Yeah, I've always thought that the classic rules for Thief skills only work if it's a % chance to just flawlessly do it no questions asked, and if you fail the thief skill roll, you still have the same chance to do what you're trying to do as a fighter or cleric or whoever. (Meaning either roleplaying your way through it, or making a DEX check, depending on how much you like to roll dice.) I'm more of a fan of just giving Thieves Advantage on Thief Stuff, which scales with level on its own, or at least find a way to roll Thief Skills with a d6 or d20 instead of a d100.
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Jan 19, 2022 00:24
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mellonbread posted:There's a disconnect between "old school" meaning intentional design with multiple paths and methods of resolution, versus the actual rules in some of the older editions that could spit out Wights and other level draining undead as part of the random encounter tables. I'm looking at the tables for Moldvay B/X now and it looks like you could get a flock of Wights as wandering monsters on Dungeon Level Level 3. Then You Shouldn't Fight Them
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Jan 19, 2022 00:36
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Is there anyway to make other languages fun at the table? It always struck me as something that could maybe be cool since language is so tied to history and culture, but in practice, it just seems annoying to try to play out where the DM tells something to one character who knows the language and the other players get the information anyway.
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Jan 19, 2022 01:42
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A Strange Aeon posted:Is there anyway to make other languages fun at the table? It always struck me as something that could maybe be cool since language is so tied to history and culture, but in practice, it just seems annoying to try to play out where the DM tells something to one character who knows the language and the other players get the information anyway. Make it so the players are vital intermediaries between factions who don't know each others` languages.
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Jan 19, 2022 02:23
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mellonbread posted:Level draining monsters gently caress with every character class, rust monsters are most harmful to fighters. Are there monsters that directly threaten casters, like erasing a spell from a wizard's repertoire, or cutting off a cleric's divine link? Golems used to be immune to almost all magic before 3.5. In 3.5 they downgraded magic immunity to mean "you are immune to spells spell resistance effects" so although they were immune to fireballs spells like Black Tentacles worked normally because it wasn't the spell attacking the golem, the spell summoned the tentacles and the tentacles attacked the golem. And in 5e golems merely have advantage on saving throws.
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Jan 19, 2022 03:02
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Shanty posted:This is probably the umpteenth time this has come up, but how do you sell Thief skills to players? When I do OSR with percentage based Thief Skills, I kind of do what you described: Success is flawless, Failure within a certain range is Success With a Consequence OR Failure With No Other Consequence, Extreme Failure is Failure And Also Consequences. It works pretty well, and I tend to see players genuinely considering if the consequences are worth it.
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Jan 19, 2022 04:11
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mellonbread posted:There's a disconnect between "old school" meaning intentional design with multiple paths and methods of resolution, versus the actual rules in some of the older editions that could spit out Wights and other level draining undead as part of the random encounter tables. I'm looking at the tables for Moldvay B/X now and it looks like you could get a flock of Wights as wandering monsters on Dungeon Level Level 3. Part of actual old school D&D as opposed to the revisionist perception is that sometimes the game Just Fucks You and there really isn't much you can do about it. Tying this back, this is why funnels are fun, it wholeheartedly embraces that aspect.
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Jan 19, 2022 04:14
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Saguaro PI posted:Part of actual old school D&D as opposed to the revisionist perception is that sometimes the game Just Fucks You and there really isn't much you can do about it. Tying this back, this is why funnels are fun, it wholeheartedly embraces that aspect. Yeah, the old school d&d char is a game piece, not a narrative element, killing them in goofy, random ways is part of what it's all about, just cook up a new one when you're done.
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Jan 19, 2022 13:26
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Shanty posted:This is probably the umpteenth time this has come up, but how do you sell Thief skills to players? I saw a bizarre argument in a video about this recently. They suggested that the purpose of thief as of AD&D was to allow non-humans to gain more hit dice than their level cap, and that was why only non-humans could multiclass freely.
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Jan 19, 2022 17:22
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Devorum posted:When I do OSR with percentage based Thief Skills, I kind of do what you described: Success is flawless, Failure within a certain range is Success With a Consequence OR Failure With No Other Consequence, Extreme Failure is Failure And Also Consequences.
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Jan 19, 2022 17:35
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Halloween Jack posted:You got me thinking about Alternity's system, where if your skill is 16 it's actually 16/8/4 for success, great success, critical success. That's basically modern BRP, isn't it? Well, with BRP it's X%/.5X%/.2X%, but same general idea.
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Jan 19, 2022 19:18
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Thinking about running OSE for my group. I want to do DCC, but the lack of weird dice is an issue. If I do run OSE, what do y'all think about a house rule that Fighters and Dwarves do 1d8 weapon damage, and possibly get some benefits for slow two-handers (exploding damage dice limited to one explosion, advantage on damage, something like that)? Oh, and maybe adding in Mighty Deeds?
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Jan 20, 2022 04:22
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Siivola posted:Sure, but that's never stopped devs from putting in wildly inappropriate monsters. “Level appropriate” doesn’t necessarily mean “if this monster is here you must fight it.” It might just mean an encounter table has a 1/12 chance of a dragon instead of a 1/4. Or that enemies likely to attack on sight are not high HD. Level appropriate was absolutely a thing in old adventures, it just didn’t meet this arbitrary definition. RE: Level drain, I cannot imagine running a mechanic where I have to keep track of what a character’s stats were at every level just to make a scary monster. I’d just make a terrifying, stackable status effect and have the level drainers inflict that instead. You can even make characters stats worse; I just find it weird that the worse stats would have to match a specific previous state of the character without it being some kinda time travel effect or whatever. Nickoten fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Jan 20, 2022 |
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Jan 20, 2022 05:33
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Never don't add Mighty Deeds.
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Jan 20, 2022 06:09
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Halloween Jack posted:Never don't add Mighty Deeds. That's my gut instinct for basically every game, but I wanted to make sure it wasn't going to blow the doors off OSE. It's been a long time since I've played B/X.
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Jan 20, 2022 06:33
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Devorum posted:That's my gut instinct for basically every game, but I wanted to make sure it wasn't going to blow the doors off OSE. It's been a long time since I've played B/X. What are you doing for the Deed dice if you're planning to avoid the zocchi set?
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Jan 20, 2022 06:51
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What is mighty deeds?
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Jan 20, 2022 07:09
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Shanty posted:What are you doing for the Deed dice if you're planning to avoid the zocchi set? Use a d6 and d10 for the d3 and d5. It's not so much that I'm planning to avoid them, it's that I'm in a country where they're hard to come by and delivery can take a while so it's just inconvenient to get multiple sets (I have my own set with me, of course). I can use the HTML Crawler, as well. Still haven't decided between the two systems. I might put it up to a group vote and see if they want a traditional Old School Experience or if they want to get real weird with it. Also, I'm kind of feeling nostalgic for THAC0 and saving throw charts.
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Jan 20, 2022 07:13
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Shanty posted:What are you doing for the Deed dice if you're planning to avoid the zocchi set? If you’re okay with stopping at DCC level 4 equivalent deeds you can just double the die size, success starts at 5: d6, d8, d10, d12
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Jan 20, 2022 07:37
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anothergod posted:What is mighty deeds? In DCC warrior types add a die to their attack rolls, if the die comes up 3+ they get to do a mighty deed as part of their attack. It’s freeform but basically let’s you do something that would be a specific kind of maneuver in crunchier games.
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Jan 20, 2022 08:36
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