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njsykora posted:I don't think he meant that the Walkman was the last of these moments (hell the PC came 2 years after the Walkman), more than the Walkman was a good example of this kind of "product that shapes the world around it" moment. But also you could make the argument that the smart phone wasn't really its own thing more than it was a combination of a bunch of other things, which is literally how Apple introduced the iPhone as a phone, iPod and web browser combined. I mean, that argument cuts both ways, doesn't it? Portable Compact Cassette players and recorders existed long before the first Walkman, the Walkman just shrunk it down enough to fit in a large pocket.
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Mar 26, 2024 08:57
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the iphone was a well-marketed palm pilot 
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Mar 26, 2024 09:00
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Cyrano4747 posted:The problem with his argument - that we'll never have another Walkman moment, which is what he's using to describe an innovation so impactful that it reshapes the very way that society interacts with tech - is that we have already had another one since then: the smart phone. And that wasn't based on any kind of amazing breakthrough, it was just a bunch of small things getting good enough to make it possible: good enough touch screens, good enough batteries, good enough SSDs, and all of those good enough parts being cheap enough to make sense for consumer hardware. https://youtube.com/watch?v=LzR36votLos Same can be said of the PC, which took decades to get to a point of perfection and mass-uptake.
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Mar 26, 2024 10:23
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:Same can be said of the PC, which took decades to get to a point of perfection and mass-uptake. Yeah like the PC might’ve first come out in 1981 but arguably it wasn’t an essential consumer product until the late 90s. Hell my family didn’t get a PC until 2003.
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Mar 26, 2024 11:21
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Dieting Hippo posted:the iphone was a well-marketed palm pilot The palm pilot was a well-executed apple newton
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Mar 26, 2024 11:24
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:The thing is, the smartphone was neither as revolutionary as all that, nor was it adopted to the same degree - in fact, there’s an argument to be made that Apple stole the idea ftom Nokia, who were just evolving the candybar phone, when they invented what would have been called Nokia MyDevice: Sure, but in both those cases you're still dealing with a technology that pretty massively shaped society and the way people interact with tech in it, even if it took a few years to really hit that kind of inflection point or if we want to argue about who was truly responsible for introducing it. Larger point being - the idea that we've hit the end of technology is patently absurd, and that's the argument he's making.
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Mar 26, 2024 12:48
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Cyrano4747 posted:
Massive VR adoption is right around the corner!
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Mar 26, 2024 14:25
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I think his overall observation that stagnation causes chaos for the sake of change is true, but there are definitely new "walkman" products and technologies that come out every once in a while. Unfortunately the consumerism need for yearly refreshes of models does not align with the rate of actual new advancements so you get wacky dumb poo poo that often is a step backwards instead of forwards, just like in the video. Modern appliances are a good example of this. We pretty much nailed how to build a stove or fridge or microwave decades ago, but they keep trying to mix things up and it's usually for the worse, like adding see-through windows to fridge doors. There's also an issue with efficiency gains being done at the expense of longevity. So while your modern fridge is 200% as electrically efficient versus the fridge from the 50s, you have to replace it every 6 years instead of every... Lifetime. Is the newer fridge really more efficient if you include replacement costs and the wastefulness?
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Mar 26, 2024 15:17
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SpartanIvy posted:I think his overall observation that stagnation causes chaos for the sake of change is true, but there are definitely new "walkman" products and technologies that come out every once in a while. Well if manufacturers would dare to use a $2 metal pump part (like the impelller itself) instead of the $0.25 brittle plastic pump part, the 200% effective fridge could also last 20-30 years no problem. Thing is, they don't because that would mean the fridge would be $50 more expensive, and, you wouldn't have to buy a new one after 5-6 years. Planned obsolescence is sometimes just a (wonderful, for the capitalists) byproduct of making everything as cheaply as possible. The effectiveness lies in more efficient, brushless electrical motors for the pump; the insulating material used for lining; the coolant system design; and the gas they use as coolant. The only reason design changes like this affect longevity is the aforementioned cheap underdimensioned moving parts. F4rt5 fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Mar 26, 2024 |
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Mar 26, 2024 15:40
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Wild EEPROM posted:mac os got better and better from 10.0 until 10.6 and then its been on a steady decline ever since
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Mar 26, 2024 16:05
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karoshi posted:The palm pilot was a Granted, this worked in its favor early on, as Newton was way too ambitious for its time and suffered badly from 1990s Appleitis (potentially cool technology, pathological inability to put it together in a good and focused product). Later on, the things that made Palm OS good on very constrained hardware made it age badly.
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Mar 26, 2024 22:54
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:We need to reinvent gods so that they can all come arrest HP, because they have commited not just crimes and felonies like the title suggests, but actual sins: I felt such a sense of deja vu watching this video. Have I seen this before somehow? It's not a reupload, right? Did he cover this laptop and its sins in another video? I'm 100% sure I've seen a lot of it before, like, I was able to guess most of what was going on before he explained.
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Mar 26, 2024 23:48
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Sininu posted:I felt such a sense of deja vu watching this video. Have I seen this before somehow? It's not a reupload, right? Did he cover this laptop and its sins in another video? I'm 100% sure I've seen a lot of it before, like, I was able to guess most of what was going on before he explained. Yeah, he says like half way through that he did the laptop earlier but brushed over the feature he's deep diving on now because he didn't know it existed and how hosed up it was.
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Mar 26, 2024 23:50
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Sininu posted:I felt such a sense of deja vu watching this video. Have I seen this before somehow? It's not a reupload, right? Did he cover this laptop and its sins in another video? I'm 100% sure I've seen a lot of it before, like, I was able to guess most of what was going on before he explained. Like CRD says, it can’t really work any other way - but it shouldn’t work at all.
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Mar 27, 2024 00:38
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Sininu posted:I felt such a sense of deja vu watching this video. Have I seen this before somehow? It's not a reupload, right? Did he cover this laptop and its sins in another video? I'm 100% sure I've seen a lot of it before, like, I was able to guess most of what was going on before he explained. He has a write-up of it on his website (write-up might be too strong a word, I think it's just him transcribing a twitter thread), maybe you read it there? http://gekk.info/articles/hp-quickweb.htm Quinntan fucked around with this message at 11:05 on Mar 27, 2024 |
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Mar 27, 2024 10:54
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Not sure if this totally fits the thread but it is still really cool: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtTWtzWav8I
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Mar 27, 2024 14:59
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Cyrano4747 posted:Yeah, he says like half way through that he did the laptop earlier but brushed over the feature he's deep diving on now because he didn't know it existed and how hosed up it was. Hell I've used hp business laptops for long enough to have installed & maintained daystarter and quicklook in the field. It was ok for your average office drone but it would melt if the mailbox had any decent size (thanks to the fat32 format of the service partition) and i distinctly remember crapping out text for calendar events if it wasn't straight ascii.
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Mar 28, 2024 07:22
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SlowBloke posted:Hell I've used hp business laptops for long enough to have installed & maintained daystarter and quicklook in the field. It was ok for your average office drone but it would melt if the mailbox had any decent size (thanks to the fat32 format of the service partition) and i distinctly remember crapping out text for calendar events if it wasn't straight ascii. What about a JPEG attachment with steganograpd’d ZIP bomb to blow the limited memory environment of UEFI? What about double-wide Unicode, or emoji, or even just ASCII control characters in SMM mode? There’s a video idea there, if it’s of interest to anyone.
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Mar 28, 2024 08:41
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LGR's been running a livestream of his bird feeder for a few days now and it's incredibly wholesome content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGtN1xqnt7Y
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Mar 28, 2024 17:15
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:When watching the video, I had the thought that both QuickLook and DayPlanner could be used for some quite fun things, since they handle arbitrary user input. I don't want to poo poo in the comment section but the machines he used in the video don't rely on bios or smm for their tricks. They use the UEFI extensions to insert boot graphics with daystarter, much like the windows or ubuntu rotating loading indicator (ACPI BGRT). Neither of those two custom applications support unicode or emoji, you will get the usual squares. SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Mar 28, 2024 |
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Mar 28, 2024 17:54
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SlowBloke posted:I don't want to poo poo in the comment section but the machines he used in the video don't rely on bios or smm for their tricks. They use the UEFI extensions to insert boot graphics with daystarter, much like the windows or ubuntu rotating loading indicator (ACPI BGRT). Neither of those two custom applications support unicode or emoji, you will get the usual squares. UEFI extensions can pause the Windows bootloader?
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Mar 28, 2024 18:18
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SlowBloke posted:I don't want to poo poo in the comment section but the machines he used in the video don't rely on bios or smm for their tricks. They use the UEFI extensions to insert boot graphics with daystarter, much like the windows or ubuntu rotating loading indicator (ACPI BGRT). Neither of those two custom applications support unicode or emoji, you will get the usual squares. The only way that'd be a 'poo poo' in the comment section is if you conveyed information in a lovely way. Which I don't think you'd do. He's quite open about the limitations of what he knows, be it from experience, or such information he was able to collate. I like that he's up for trying to hypothesise, but crucially is also open about that, and the fact that yes, he'll get it wrong at times. Seriously. Post your thoughts there! Fundamentally, it is all super-interesting stuff for nerds to bliss out on, so more info, and more accurate info, is definitionally a plus.
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Mar 28, 2024 18:31
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Kibner posted:UEFI extensions can pause the Windows bootloader? There are multiple versions of daystarter (i think the last one was 2?) existing and the machines gravis used being newer than the bailing wire and hopes relying one detailed in the powerpoint (the first iteration was found on vista machines, windows 7 for 2.0). I have no earthly idea on the precise details but i do remember that, if you enabled uefi boot with a modern os that did the spinning loading indicator using the vendor image, daydream would disappear (or crash given how rudimentary hp uefi bios was at the time). It's running acpi bgrt every X seconds, using the vendor image buffer to paste the jpg in hp-tools every x( i might misremembering but i think it was two) seconds. magimix posted:The only way that'd be a 'poo poo' in the comment section is if you conveyed information in a lovely way. Which I don't think you'd do. He's quite open about the limitations of what he knows, be it from experience, or such information he was able to collate. It's been a shitload of time since i had to manage those apps so there is a definite chance i might have forgotten details or be misremembering, jumping there without a clear list of items to refute/confirm my thesis would be a level of shitposting beyond my standards. SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Mar 28, 2024 |
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Mar 28, 2024 18:32
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this is techtrilobite terror posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD3Y1l8XyUw
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Mar 28, 2024 18:34
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SlowBloke posted:I don't want to poo poo in the comment section but the machines he used in the video don't rely on bios or smm for their tricks. They use the UEFI extensions to insert boot graphics with daystarter, much like the windows or ubuntu rotating loading indicator (ACPI BGRT). Neither of those two custom applications support unicode or emoji, you will get the usual squares. Seems almost worse, since those don’t have a whole lot of write endurance - also, it’s take a lot longer than any CEO would put up with, and there’s no such thing as cancelling a firmware flash; once you start writing, you’d better make sure it finishes and closes, or you risk bricking the device. Importantly, Windows 7 also doesn’t support UEFI properly, so since only thing available after NTLDR takes over is UEFI Runtime Services, that won’t work - also, it can only be used for things like reading or writing a few variables such as the Boot Manager options. Also, HPs own documentation presented in the video around 41:42 references SMM in connection with DayStarter - so I think you might’ve missed that? EDIT: It's apparently not hard to findthe PDF for the presentation slides where HP talked about this, even if the presentation itself isn't as easy to find? I’d love to know how it’s done, but I can’t see how your explanation fits the available facts. BlankSystemDaemon fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Mar 28, 2024 |
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Mar 28, 2024 18:49
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:ACPI BGRT isn’t modifiable at runtime, so that’d imply that they read the UEFI ROM, modify it, and re-flash it (to EEPROM, SPI flash storage, or whatever). The original release of daystarter was for vista machines while the second one was in 7 hp provided images. Again, lot of time since then but the vista machines with daystarter were far more unreliable in the calendar sequence, which makes me think they are the codebase that the uefi 2010 developer conference (https://uefi.org/sites/default/files/resources/UEFIPlugfestHPSession.pdf) slide deck was about that one while the second release did it some way different since it didn't crap out by looking at it intensely. Never did much digging beside handling tickets about daydream freezing out but mk2 felt like it did something more clever than framebuffer rewrite as the vista build.
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Mar 28, 2024 19:02
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SlowBloke posted:The original release of daystarter was for vista machines while the second one was in 7 hp provided images. Again, lot of time since then but the vista machines with daystarter were far more unreliable in the calendar sequence, which makes me think they are the codebase that the uefi 2010 developer conference (https://uefi.org/sites/default/files/resources/UEFIPlugfestHPSession.pdf) slide deck was about that one while the second release did it some way different since it didn't crap out by looking at it intensely. Never did much digging beside handling tickets about daydream freezing out but mk2 felt like it did something more clever than framebuffer rewrite as the vista build. Interestingly enough, Dong Wei is still presenting on UEFI stuff according to the latest UEFI developer conference - but he works at Arm now? It'd be interesting to have him tell war stories, but I doubt those could be public. To be clear, I'm not saying you're wrong that it's not using SMM - I'm saying that any method proposed that doesn't involve SMM isn't likely to work,; ACPI BGRT can't do it for the reasons outlined, and UEFI Runtime Services won't work on either VIsta or 7. BlankSystemDaemon fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Mar 28, 2024 |
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Mar 28, 2024 19:07
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:Windows 7 didn't support UEFI properly, so I'm not sure that it matters that VIsta didn't either? I was referring to the era of machines and their baseline bios which ran the daystarter code. HP expected a bios re flash if you decided to upgrade the vista machines to 7 and the firmware had a different set of build codes with the ones validated for vista. Daystarter behaved differently in each branches, with the windows 7 validated firmware not as quirky and freeze prone if daystarter was enabled. Incidentally it was so much time ago that i wouldn't be surprised if tokin wasn't born yet. The whole suite of efi based apps in the probook xx10-xx60 series was a huge pain in the rear end since it would corrupt easily if the computer didn't shut down cleanly while saving quicklook or daystarter data, requiring to remake the partition and reinstall the diagnostic package. SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Mar 28, 2024 |
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Mar 28, 2024 19:46
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SlowBloke posted:I was referring to the era of machines and their baseline bios which ran the daystarter code. HP expected a bios re flash if you decided to upgrade the vista machines to 7 and the firmware had a different set of build codes with the ones validated for vista. Daystarter behaved differently in each branches, with the windows 7 validated firmware not as quirky and freeze prone if daystarter was enabled. Also, don't forget that ACPI BGRT is the bootsplash that's presented after the POST, but before UEFI hands things off to NTLDR.EFI - which is what's responsible for loading the kernel, symbols, and text that the kernel needs to initialize devices and bring up the rest of the OS. That device and OS initialization is what both the Windows spinning boot logo, as well as the HP DayPlanner, is covering up (and it's fairly easy to disable via msconfig, so you can see the drivers and such being loaded) - so the firmware is no longer actively being used (except in so far as what's available through Runtime Services, but Windows Vista and 7 can't do that).
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Mar 28, 2024 20:03
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One way to test the SMM-overwriting-framebuffer vs "other method" would be to do this:
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Mar 28, 2024 20:09
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:One way to test the SMM-overwriting-framebuffer vs "other method" would be to do this: I have a pile of Probook 4310s in my scrap pile, if I can find a working unit and enough spare time i'll test it. SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Mar 28, 2024 |
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Mar 28, 2024 20:12
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i would be extremely surprised if gravis didn't have a something awful account, might be worth pointing him to the discussion in this thread if anyone is on his patreon or whatever.
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Mar 28, 2024 20:26
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Arivia posted:i would be extremely surprised if gravis didn't have a something awful account, might be worth pointing him to the discussion in this thread if anyone is on his patreon or whatever. The only one contradicting his video is me, based on old experiences and feels without solid proof. I think his time would be better spent on pretty much anything else. SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Mar 28, 2024 |
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Mar 28, 2024 20:38
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Do you think his parents got the idea for his name after getting their ultrasound?
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Mar 28, 2024 21:00
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SlowBloke posted:The only one contradicting his video is me, based on old experiences and feels without solid proof. I think his time would be better spent on pretty much anything else. I don't think that's true. Gravis has spoken at length about how much he enjoys getting more details and behind the scenes stuff from people who had hands on experience with these technologies when they were being used. And the discussion of the various interlocking technologies and how they were to support would definitely fit that alley. Sagacity posted:Do you think his parents got the idea for his name after getting their ultrasound? It's from the old Gravis gamepad, I believe. Arivia fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Mar 28, 2024 |
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Mar 28, 2024 21:03
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RIP Gravis  I had a GUS and it taught you all about fiddling with drivers to get sound support working 
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Mar 28, 2024 22:22
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Sininu posted:I felt such a sense of deja vu watching this video. Have I seen this before somehow? It's not a reupload, right? Did he cover this laptop and its sins in another video? I'm 100% sure I've seen a lot of it before, like, I was able to guess most of what was going on before he explained. he posted about it on cohost about a year ago: https://cohost.org/cathoderaydude/post/1228730-taking-the-deepest-p https://cohost.org/cathoderaydude/post/1311259-hell-never-ends-on-x
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Mar 28, 2024 22:30
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:he posted about it on cohost about a year ago: Okay, I did read these way back yeah. I remembered it was just about the Hyperspace, but it was a lot more.
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Mar 29, 2024 00:20
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priznat posted:RIP Gravis The MIDI playback test software that came with it had some  tunes in it too.
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Mar 29, 2024 00:39
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Kazinsal posted:The MIDI playback test software that came with it had some Oh yeah I even upgraded the RAM on mine to 1MB! I made a ton of tunes on it, mostly just doing cover versions of songs. Without an actual midi controller keyboard just with the regular pc keyboard lol. I can't even remember how that worked.
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Mar 29, 2024 01:01
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