Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


kliras posted:

AV1 encoding is getting wider adoption on YouTube; this HWUB video has AV1 across all resolutions:

YouTube is generally taking the road of "same quality, lower bitrate" rather than "same bitrate, higher quality" with AV1

At low resolutions the AV01 encodes get more bitrate than the VP9 & AVC encoders though. And AV1 is really good. I'd expect a reduction in bitrate by 10% versus VP9 still results in higher quality.

IDK, it seems like youtube quality is pretty good these days. They use good codecs now, unlike the VP8 days. If you compare 4K movie trailers and other stuff that's not a talking head, they're delivering bitrates that are at least the same ballpark as netflix.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

kliras
Mar 27, 2021


Klyith posted:

IDK, it seems like youtube quality is pretty good these days. They use good codecs now, unlike the VP8 days. If you compare 4K movie trailers and other stuff that's not a talking head, they're delivering bitrates that are at least the same ballpark as netflix.
Part of this is also that more people are uploading higher-resolution videos which is more likely to trigger VP9 encoding versus the default AVC/H264 which continues to look pretty garbage. YouTube livestreams still look aaawful, in part because everything uploaded to ingest always gets re-encoded. Maybe YouTube don't take literal days to encode 4K uploads anymore or something.

And to be fair to YouTube, a lot of people just still have zero clue how to encode video for YouTube, especially huge channels like IGN. The new Moon Knight trailer from Marvel also looks like absolute garbage (in terms of encoding), which blows my mind for such a big company.

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009

System Access Node
Not Found:ins:


kliras posted:

AV1 encoding is getting wider adoption on YouTube; this HWUB video has AV1 across all resolutions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTkIeBhVOck

code:
mp4   3840x2160 60 | 1.54GiB 11056k | av01.0.13M.08
webm  3840x2160 60 | 1.74GiB 12438k | vp9
YouTube is generally taking the road of "same quality, lower bitrate" rather than "same bitrate, higher quality" with AV1, which I assume is in large part due to the algo dorks who believe it will result in higher watchtimes, engagement, etc.
I'm bit worried that they're moving things around; youtube video compression was already right on the line where it can sort-of handle ~most~ things, but it's surprisingly easy to make it give up and just display garbage.
If they're going to switch, I'd at least like to see statistical and perceptual similarity comparisons between the source, the old compression, and the new compression - although I doubt we're gonna get that.

Combat Pretzel posted:

I doubt ISPs have stopped their "Youtube/Netflix needs to pay for the bandwidth they use on our networks" shpiel. It's probably partly related to that. And IIRC back when Covid started, the EU mandated lower video bitrate to make room on the interwebs for home office data traffic. Not sure if that's still in effect.
Youtube is a lot more hostile against ISPs than Netflix is, though; the latter has the OpenConnect Appliances that any ISP can setup in their datacenter racks, which functions as a cache for Netflix content.

Klyith posted:

At low resolutions the AV01 encodes get more bitrate than the VP9 & AVC encoders though. And AV1 is really good. I'd expect a reduction in bitrate by 10% versus VP9 still results in higher quality.

IDK, it seems like youtube quality is pretty good these days. They use good codecs now, unlike the VP8 days. If you compare 4K movie trailers and other stuff that's not a talking head, they're delivering bitrates that are at least the same ballpark as netflix.
I've seen a lot of people say it's better, and it may very well be - but where are the SSIM and PSIM comparisons?

I know a little less about video compression than I do about audio compression, but anyone with a confetti cannon or the equivalent After Effects filter can demonstrate how quickly things can get bad the same way that songs (even officially-uploaded ones) can end up sounding like vocal fry:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gtyi1vvXxKY
(Towards the end of the song, the crescendo is so powerful that it breaks most audio compression algorithms, and certainly all the ones offered by youtube - if you listen to a good FLAC rip of the song you'll hear very clearly what I'm talking about)

BlankSystemDaemon fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Jan 18, 2022

Inept
Jul 8, 2003



BlankSystemDaemon posted:

Youtube is a lot more hostile against ISPs than Netflix is, though; the latter has the OpenConnect Appliances that any ISP can setup in their datacenter racks, which functions as a cache for Netflix content.

Netflix probably has well under 1% of the data that Youtube has though.

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009

System Access Node
Not Found:ins:


Inept posted:

Netflix probably has well under 1% of the data that Youtube has though.
A decade ago they were handling about 1/3 of all North American traffic during peak times using FreeBSD, and nowadays they're building servers that handle about ~400Gbps of traffic each:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o-HcG8QxPc

Combat Pretzel
Jun 23, 2004

No, seriously... what kurds?!

Netflix also have cache servers in data centers of a lot of ISPs.

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009

System Access Node
Not Found:ins:


Combat Pretzel posted:

Netflix also have cache servers in data centers of a lot of ISPs.
I already mentioned the OpenConnect Appliances. :ssh:

Although I didn't mention they're free, which I wasn't aware of.

repiv
Aug 13, 2009



BlankSystemDaemon posted:

A decade ago they were handling about 1/3 of all North American traffic during peak times using FreeBSD, and nowadays they're building servers that handle about ~400Gbps of traffic each:

yes netflix pushes a lot of data around, but it's largely pushing the same data to many different users, so that data can be cached at the edge

youtube consumers are pulling a much broader set of content that's a lot harder to cache

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009

System Access Node
Not Found:ins:


repiv posted:

yes netflix pushes a lot of data around, but it's largely pushing the same data to many different users, so that data can be cached at the edge

youtube consumers are pulling a much broader set of content that's a lot harder to cache
Sure, you're gonna get no argument from me on that point - I'm in the dubious position of having had to try and provide caching for YouTube at one point.
You can probably guess how it went.

The point was that they're still moving a shitload of traffic.

Insurrectionist
May 21, 2007


As of today, Youtube is plastering recommended movies all over my home page. Is there any nice extension made to get rid of this? I doubt Youtube would be kind enough to let me disable it on their own, even if I don't even watch movies and would certainly not pay Youtube to watch them even if I did.

cage-free egghead
Mar 8, 2004


I am curious how video delivery works at an as needed basis. So they cache it at edge locations, but how does delivery work if you've got hundreds or thousands of people asking to watch the same episode of a show? Like, are instances created when an episode is queued up and customers connect to it?

Obviously outside of the scope of this thread but just a random thought I've never explored before.

Insurrectionist posted:

As of today, Youtube is plastering recommended movies all over my home page. Is there any nice extension made to get rid of this? I doubt Youtube would be kind enough to let me disable it on their own, even if I don't even watch movies and would certainly not pay Youtube to watch them even if I did.

Freetube for Windows or Newpipe for Android have been good at giving me exactly what I want based off of my subscriptions. Plus you don't actually have to log into a google account.

Kerbtree
Sep 8, 2008

BAD FALCON!
LAZY!


BlankSystemDaemon posted:

I'm bit worried that they're moving things around; youtube video compression was already right on the line where it can sort-of handle ~most~ things, but it's surprisingly easy to make it give up and just display garbage.
If they're going to switch, I'd at least like to see statistical and perceptual similarity comparisons between the source, the old compression, and the new compression - although I doubt we're gonna get that.

Youtube is a lot more hostile against ISPs than Netflix is, though; the latter has the OpenConnect Appliances that any ISP can setup in their datacenter racks, which functions as a cache for Netflix content.

I've seen a lot of people say it's better, and it may very well be - but where are the SSIM and PSIM comparisons?

I know a little less about video compression than I do about audio compression, but anyone with a confetti cannon or the equivalent After Effects filter can demonstrate how quickly things can get bad the same way that songs (even officially-uploaded ones) can end up sounding like vocal fry:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gtyi1vvXxKY
(Towards the end of the song, the crescendo is so powerful that it breaks most audio compression algorithms, and certainly all the ones offered by youtube - if you listen to a good FLAC rip of the song you'll hear very clearly what I'm talking about)

This video is not available?

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009

System Access Node
Not Found:ins:


Kerbtree posted:

This video is not available?
It is for me, but UGM is weird about geo-location permissions for some of their videos.
It's Comforting Sounds by Mew in case you want to look it up for yourself.

Combat Pretzel
Jun 23, 2004

No, seriously... what kurds?!

I mean, it's not like it's a new thing, and people need to get paid, but something clicked very recently, and this...

SEGWAY!

LTT STORE DOT COM!

AFFILIATE LINKS!

SPONSOR!

etc blah blah...

...got reaaaally grating.

When their upcoming labs stuff is gonna tear a hole into their financials, it's probably gonna ramp up some. I guess the other activities of LMG don't generate satisfactory revenue. Or it's simply just MONEY.

njsykora
Jan 23, 2012

Robots confuse squirrels.




Youtubers who try and do knowing winking links (Linus) and subtle hard to notice transitions (Rene Ritchie) into ad reads infuriate the piss out of me. You know people are just going to skip past it so just say "now for an advert" like Michael Fisher does, and he's even started marking out the sponsor spot as a Youtube chapter (and before that had a big "Sponsor Message" box on screen during it) so it's easy to skip.

repiv
Aug 13, 2009



do i have the extension for you!

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/sponsorblock-for-youtube/mnjggcdmjocbbbhaepdhchncahnbgone?hl=en
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-GB/firefox/addon/sponsorblock/

Thanks Ants
May 21, 2004

#essereFerrari




This one as well

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/clickbait-remover-for-you/omoinegiohhgbikclijaniebjpkeopip?hl=en

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010




Lipstick Apathy

Given that Manscape has already bought sponsor spots, I'd like to see how LTT handles a promotion for Mac Welden underwear and Bluechew

Kia Soul Enthusias
May 9, 2004

zoom-zoom


Toilet Rascal

I just pay $3 for float plane hehe

Koskun
Apr 20, 2004
I worship the ground NinjaPablo walks on

Combat Pretzel posted:

When their upcoming labs stuff is gonna tear a hole into their financials, it's probably gonna ramp up some. I guess the other activities of LMG don't generate satisfactory revenue. Or it's simply just MONEY.
If I remember right, Linus said that a good chunk of their profits come from their merchandise. I'd guess it doesn't match what a 10 million plus subscription gets (plus their other channels), but it wasn't anything to sneeze at. It is why so many youtubers find some company to make stuff for them. Linus though does seem to be making sure the stuff is good quality, and not just any ole "sure we can put that logo on a blank t-shirt for ya" company.


njsykora posted:

Youtubers who try and do knowing winking links (Linus) and subtle hard to notice transitions (Rene Ritchie) into ad reads infuriate the piss out of me. You know people are just going to skip past it so just say "now for an advert" like Michael Fisher does, and he's even started marking out the sponsor spot as a Youtube chapter (and before that had a big "Sponsor Message" box on screen during it) so it's easy to skip.

Most, maybe all, of LTT's video's for a while now have had the main promotion/sponsor ad listed as a chapter, but not the inserts they toss in during the video.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


BlankSystemDaemon posted:

I've seen a lot of people say it's better, and it may very well be - but where are the SSIM and PSIM comparisons?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AV1#Quality_and_efficiency, there are results from a bunch of different research papers you can dig into

the only one that says AV1 isn't as good is Fraunhoffer, who are not exactly a neutral party (or it could be explained by their testing being in 2016 while the code was still very alpha)

BlankSystemDaemon posted:

I know a little less about video compression than I do about audio compression, but anyone with a confetti cannon or the equivalent After Effects filter can demonstrate how quickly things can get bad the same way that songs (even officially-uploaded ones) can end up sounding like vocal fry:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gtyi1vvXxKY
(Towards the end of the song, the crescendo is so powerful that it breaks most audio compression algorithms, and certainly all the ones offered by youtube - if you listen to a good FLAC rip of the song you'll hear very clearly what I'm talking about)

So I don't have a lossless to compare, and honestly I'm not the best at ABXing encoder artifacts in the first place. But that song is clipped to hell. It's not "too powerful", its flattened against the wall. I'm kinda doubtful whether what you're hearing is encoder artifacts or just a song with terrible mastering. Most audio problem samples that show encoder problems are not songs that sound like that -- encoders do square waves just fine.

If you're serious about comparing encoders and poo poo you can't just compare lossy vs lossless. You have to blind test them and, before making quality judgements, prove that you can tell blind samples apart.

Adolf Glitter
Aug 13, 2016





I don't think I'd still be watching many youtube videos without sponsorblock. It arrived just as I was starting to unsubscribe from some. Even just blocking the "like and subscribe* stuff and the overly long intros makes it much better.
If it could block the overuse of "guys" and everything being "super" then I'd be even happier

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009

System Access Node
Not Found:ins:


Klyith posted:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AV1#Quality_and_efficiency, there are results from a bunch of different research papers you can dig into

the only one that says AV1 isn't as good is Fraunhoffer, who are not exactly a neutral party (or it could be explained by their testing being in 2016 while the code was still very alpha)

So I don't have a lossless to compare, and honestly I'm not the best at ABXing encoder artifacts in the first place. But that song is clipped to hell. It's not "too powerful", its flattened against the wall. I'm kinda doubtful whether what you're hearing is encoder artifacts or just a song with terrible mastering. Most audio problem samples that show encoder problems are not songs that sound like that -- encoders do square waves just fine.

If you're serious about comparing encoders and poo poo you can't just compare lossy vs lossless. You have to blind test them and, before making quality judgements, prove that you can tell blind samples apart.
I know the strengths of the AV1 codec, I wasn't criticizing it by itself - this is specifically about how youtube treats the videos uploaded and what forms their decision choices.
Also, did you read any of the articles? Almost all of them measure structural similarity (or even more laughably, PSNR) whereas what I'm asking for is both that and perceptual similarity (preferably at the same time, since that tells more than either alone does).

All of the research done on AV1 is on researcher-chosen videos (which can be an issue, but let's assume it isn't) as well as settings that've chosen based on whatever optimizes for the best quality at a given bitrate.
That latter is the important part, because it's not what Google are targeting; even if we knew their exact encoding choices (while I haven't looked extensively, I've not found anything conclusive - but if you upload something following exactly their recommendations it still gets re-encoded, so they're doing something else), I'm pretty sure we can guess that they're more interested in what gets them the lowest bitrate while still having passable quality.
That's a distinction that matters when you're measuring PSIM.

As for Comforting Sounds, the mastering of the song isn't the problem as it sounds great on the Frengers album or ripped as FLAC - it just happens to be a song where the crescendo contains so many things that the psycho-acoustic properties of most lossy codecs break down unless you do CBR at the highest bitrate.
However, it's also a good test for this exact reason, because you don't need a blind ABX test to hear the differences in the FLAC encoding vs VBR in the low-140kbps- ie. what the OPUS encoding is for the version I linked, but even if it was AAC-LC (which is what youtube recommends), it still sounds like vocal fry.

BlankSystemDaemon fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Jan 19, 2022

kliras
Mar 27, 2021


Speak of the devil! FFmpeg 5.0 just launched, including:

quote:

AV1 Low overhead bitstream format muxer

:eyepop:

Combat Pretzel
Jun 23, 2004

No, seriously... what kurds?!

What am I missing? A muxer combines bitstreams into a container format.

kliras
Mar 27, 2021


I just really wanted to use that emote for once, but it's a nice addition.

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009

System Access Node
Not Found:ins:


:ibadpop:

Martian Manfucker
Dec 27, 2012

misandry is real

LTT does do a nice thing and makes the intro ad read + title almost exactly 20 seconds long so a double tap as soon as you hear Linus doing his bad sponsor segue gets you right into the video.

wargames
Mar 16, 2008

official yospos cat censor


Martian Manfucker posted:

LTT does do a nice thing and makes the intro ad read + title almost exactly 20 seconds long so a double tap as soon as you hear Linus doing his bad sponsor segue gets you right into the video.

There is a great browser plugin called sponserblock that auto skips these segments.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010




Lipstick Apathy

https://twitter.com/GamersNexus/status/1484709449889730560?t=4_Vdg5SiQz4RYydRBlC4YA&s=19

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week



steve's wrong (except for the part where anyone with an alternative should buy something better), anandtech guy is right:





DIY enthusiasts who buy enthusiast-grade parts aren't gonna quit the PC DIY scene. The practical and money-conscious may take a long break from upgrades, but they'll be back. What you have to worry about is the pipeline of new people who are getting shut out. First time builders generally don't start with top-level parts, they start with budget or mid-range ones. They're the ones who have absolutely *nothing* to buy, and that's your pipeline for the future.

In a shortage of fabs & ram, you can make 2-4 low-end GPUs for every high-end one. If both Nvidia and AMD had concentrated on maxing the number of boxes on shelves, it would have been better for everyone but the shareholders seeing record profits.

njsykora
Jan 23, 2012

Robots confuse squirrels.




Someone needs to come take Linus' phone off him.
https://twitter.com/LinusTech/status/1486925588199718912
https://twitter.com/LinusTech/status/1486958740062425089

FilthyImp
Sep 30, 2002

Nope



Can't blocks ads if my content is an ad :magemage:

Charles Leclerc
Jul 22, 2014

SUCCHIAMI IL MIO CAZZO DA DIETRO, RANA RAGAZZO



2022 FIA Formula 1 WDC



lol I tried watching a few YouTube videos through the native app recently and it was utterly loving infuriating how many ads were served during and between videos.

njsykora
Jan 23, 2012

Robots confuse squirrels.




A discord friend also remembered Linus doing a video on the PiHole which makes it even funnier.
https://t.co/O8U1X9Gm6U

kliras
Mar 27, 2021


And promoting VPNs that are definitely not about getting around region restrictions for where streaming services don't have publishing rights, etc.

Thanks Ants
May 21, 2004

#essereFerrari




Theophany posted:

lol I tried watching a few YouTube videos through the native app recently and it was utterly loving infuriating how many ads were served during and between videos.

Are you sure you don't want Deliveroo or to reliably send money with Remitly?

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week



lmao what is it about being rich that suddenly turns your mindset into "everyone is stealing from me if they don't give me the most possible money"?



anyways the ad ecosystem is why google algorithmically promotes extremist rabbit-hole content, blocking ads on youtube is halal

Weaponized Autism
Mar 26, 2006

All aboard the Gravy train!

Hair Elf

How long before Linus starts selling NFTs?

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

njsykora
Jan 23, 2012

Robots confuse squirrels.




Weaponized Autism posted:

How long before Linus starts selling NFTs?

Funny you should ask.
https://twitter.com/LinusTech/status/1486925215393144832

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply