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hobbesmaster posted:Rhetoric [Trivial: FAILED] Drama [Impossible: SUCCESS] Yes...ha ha ha...YES!
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# ¿ Oct 7, 2020 12:18 |
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# ¿ Apr 18, 2024 07:12 |
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Dapper_Swindler posted:good point. Cyberpunk is super political and while it probably won't be Disco Elysium's level left leaning(AAA vs indie etc). its not gonna point to the corpos and the world and say "this is cool and good" and or "vote trump". part of the reason this poo poo is because shits been partisan/super heated for the last 8 years and its just ingrained into the online communities to turn every argument into a big political yelling match. i think that it's interesting to analyze these games that have capital-f Factions that market themselves on a core ideology and leave the choice of where to align to the player, because the ideologies the game depicts and chooses not to (and, of course, how they are depicted in the context of the work) is itself a political choice
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# ¿ Oct 12, 2020 19:18 |
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at hostpital lost fingapp
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# ¿ Oct 14, 2020 14:46 |
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I always had the impression that analog and digital augmentations would at some point be almost entirely replaced with genetic tampering. basically Sorry to Bother You is cyberpunk
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# ¿ Oct 16, 2020 15:51 |
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If I see a robot arm on the floor, I think to myself and would say to someone "Oh somebody lost their robot arm, I hope THEY find it again" because I don't know the gender of the person who lost it. This is extremely common and so instinctual people don't think about it.
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# ¿ Oct 17, 2020 13:50 |
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necrobobsledder posted:I bought Disco Elysium like 2 weeks ago and those guys deserve more money. I mean, it’s point and click Planescape Torment minus combat, but given what they had to work with they’ve put out something quite remarkable. I fully expect none of these things from Cyberpunk but it’s not really what I’d expect from a more resource-heavy story branching setup. I’m not exactly expecting V to slip and die on a banana peel here I feel like I'm going to be unfavorably comparing the skill checks in RPGs to DE's for the rest of my life, it set the bar on that in particular so high masterfully using primarily writing tools.
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# ¿ Oct 19, 2020 03:30 |
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I'm prepared to accept that I'll hate the game personally especially with how clumsily they've been handling trans poo poo (seriously hire a sensitivity consultant please, it's a drop in the bucket of this massive budget), but it's inevitably going to be a critical darling that a large number of people who play games will be enjoying on some level because they don't have to care about marginalized issues in their day to day life
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# ¿ Oct 20, 2020 17:41 |
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punk rebel ecks posted:There's like a huge effort thread about the controversies in ResetEra that I kind of want to copy and post but I'm afraid that I'll be ridiculed for doing so. maybe it's misguided but I have faith that on SA even if a handful of people are reactionary assholes in defense of a video game they want to play a mature discussion can be had over these issues despite them, idk I'd post it
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# ¿ Oct 20, 2020 19:49 |
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punk rebel ecks posted:Here's the link to the thread. I'll transcribe (heh) it here, sectioned off into different quotes, it's on the long side but not unreadably so so I decided to only do bare minimum cuts to maintain as much context as possible: Context posted:I want to start by giving some grounding to the issue as far too often we have the refrain of "it's just a game" levelled against us. The truth is that the majority of people don't know someone who is openly trans. Have had no known contact with someone that is openly trans and therefore have little direct relation to the issues we face, our lives and our bodies. The majority of information people do receive about us is via the media they consume. The issue here is that trans representation or depiction in media has historically been either through mockery or disgust, and more commonly now – fetishization. We are set dressing for laughs, for being reviled or for pleasure. Frequently reduced down to our genitals and bodies in favour of seeing a person. Due to this, the way media presents us is in direct relation to the abuse, harm and threats we face in life. For more of an understanding around this in relation to film, I recommend the Netflix documentary Disclosure. This issue extends across all media, including games and print. People frequently perceive us through these depictions and when we're presented as little more than a joke, that's what we're taken as. Tweets posted:On the 20th August 2018 the official Cyberpunk twitter posted this tweet response: Cyberpunk 2077 Adverts / 'It's a Dystopia' posted:In one of the gameplay reveals in June 2019 this poster was spotted on a surface in the game: Political Sympathies posted:In among this, it's important to bring the grounding that CDPR operates from a country that's in the midst of a nationwide crackdown on trans people and all those within the LGBTQ+ community. This has garnered worldwide condemnation and even brought into question the IOC's choice of hosting the Olympics there. Townships have declared themselves LGBT-Free and propaganda seeking to exile members of the community is regularly passed around, in some cases even being included with news publications. Character Creator posted:
Official Cosplay Competition posted:Now we have the most recent example of CDPR's disdain for trans people. If you recall the defense for the caricature of the trans woman in the "Chromanticore" poster was that the fetishization of the trans character was to be seen as "terrible". Something CDPR claim to see as something that should be fought against. Which as discussed is already brought into question by their own use of it in offline promos, but is completely blown apart by their choice of finalist in their recent cosplay competition. Not just via social media, but in their official Night City Wire pre-presentation. CDPR are content to exploit both their workers and trans people for financial gain, alongside courting an obvious and loud alt-right fanbase posted:They are a transphobic company content to lean on inclusivity as a promotional tool at the expense of trans people. Consistently treating us with ridicule and afterthought while claiming the opposite. They are happy to foster a toxic work environment grinding their workers to the bone. They are happy to lean into the chud fanbase they know they've garnered over the years.
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# ¿ Oct 20, 2020 21:34 |
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grieving for Gandalf posted:it seems like advertising and marketing in cyberpunk settings is meant to be troubling and make one think about the place of those institutions in our own society. the ad in CP2077 uses a fetishized image of a transwoman to sell soda or something, the point of which seems clear: exploitation this way to sell a product is wack I advise reading the quote block labelled "Cyberpunk 2077 Adverts / 'It's a Dystopia'" for their answer to that take
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# ¿ Oct 20, 2020 22:06 |
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Chalks posted:There's a situation here where the tweets of a few individuals are being grouped with the depictions of trans people in game and used to say "this entire company is transphobic". I don't think that's really fair. There are lots of poorly informed people out there who don't fully understand these issues (no doubt including myself) but tweets like these speak of poor sensitivity training among marketing interns charged with running twitter accounts rather than some systemic issue in CDPR in particular. Depiction is not endorsement, but depiction of something this harmful, that is a boiling hot issue, without a strong message constitutes exploitation. We'll have to see whether the game will deliver on that.
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# ¿ Oct 20, 2020 22:32 |
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Chalks posted:Yeah, I'm certainly not saying that they should only get to choose between a bad depiction or no depiction, but I would say that to have a coherent cyberpunk world, you have to have trans people completely accepted and normalised. Has anyone else been subjected to the level of exploitation that trans women have that we know about? I have only seen trans womens' genitals in marketing so far, aside from characters in-world being neutrally naked. I guess what I'm questioning is, is the exploitation really level? It seems like what we've seen so far has been very disproportionate. Remember that in addition to the Chromanticore poster there is also this:
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# ¿ Oct 20, 2020 23:09 |
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Dapper_Swindler posted:overall i think it makes good points but some of it goes a little "obviously CDPR knows about how much this hurts us and its on purpose" stuff. like i didnt even know about T/nb voice training/etc until i read about it because of the one article that gets linked that got mad because of the voice stuff, which i still dont think is fully true because i am pretty sure they have said earlier they have "they" options set up if you use differing body/voice/etc stuff. I do think CDPR is tonedeaf and needed to fire shitheads way sooner and hire actual experts and have better explanations. that being said, i dont think they are doing massive outreach to chuds because the chuds now think the game is "degeneracy" because you can play as a trans V. plus chuds are not good being coy with their hatred. like look at the GOG chud who was fired. he wasnt "clever" with his bigotry. I think that what makes a lot of us wary, especially those who like the genre, is that in classic cyberpunk it was very common for trans women to be described and depicted as emblematic of the degradation of society, as degenerate and perverse sex workers. So when we see this sort of exploitation up front what we think is "Ah poo poo, here we go again".
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# ¿ Oct 20, 2020 23:40 |
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sebmojo posted:the drink ad wasn't that though, it was presenting it as a cool and awesome thing that would make you buy #PRODUCT? I'm talking more about the Watson Whore thing than the Chromanticore thing there
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# ¿ Oct 20, 2020 23:46 |
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Dapper_Swindler posted:true. i think its more that I trust Pondsmith and he has always been woke and progressive in good ways and he is pretty active in the development apparently. to me the ads are gross in the sense that its basicaly all those weird gross ads from the 1980s but this time also exploitive of trans/nb folk because its 2077 and no one cares about people being trans anymore now that you can make yourself look like a catgirl or an alien with cybernetics/genestuff. pondsmiths stuff is more 2000 AD than gibson. I guess I want to repeat the question, is there a cis equivalent to Watson Whore? Why does it seem like trans women are the focal point for channeling the edginess of the setting?
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# ¿ Oct 20, 2020 23:55 |
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sebmojo posted:this is a good question, but it's one you would be better asking when the game comes out imo. we are peering at it through a keyhole. This is all from material that they are using to promote the game to the public and to critics, it's a keyhole but what was in the room for people to peer into was put there deliberately. While I'm not privy to the end state of the game and hope to give it the benefit of the doubt I'm also not confident that when the reason for the highlighting of this exploitation is revealed I will be ashamed of my words and deeds.
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# ¿ Oct 21, 2020 00:10 |
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there's exploitation here, edge even, but nothing on the level of visible genitals. notice how in the abydos ad, for example, the man's junk is entirely concealed by the product. i understand if that line seems arbitrary to you, like i'm moving the goalposts, but that distinction is important to what I'm trying to get at.
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# ¿ Oct 21, 2020 00:21 |
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Cross-dressing and trans issues are also historically linked with similar cultural roots (Paris is Burning has examples of this, and you could also point to several of the performers featured in Ru Paul's Drag Race coming out as trans), while they're distinct groups especially today there's significant shared struggle and a knock on one group still often harms the other. I believe the possibility of the person being a cross-dresser, but I don't see that as somehow exonerating the depiction.
Catgirl Al Capone fucked around with this message at 13:24 on Oct 21, 2020 |
# ¿ Oct 21, 2020 13:20 |
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The Gadfly posted:CDPR's marketing team has been poo poo in general. It may be pessimistic but I honestly don't think most people care in the first place. Because of how critical AAA hype marketing is to the full package of the product there will be a handful of people like me who are wary or have taken a strong stance against the product, but most people will just enjoy the cool robot arms and not have to think about any of this.
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# ¿ Oct 21, 2020 14:38 |
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punk rebel ecks posted:The most annoying argument to me are people who argue about how games used to be like $100 adjusting for inflation back in the '90s. also, wages have been stagnant for ages now
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# ¿ Oct 21, 2020 22:40 |
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AirRaid posted:I think the larger question for me is, set in a world which seems explicitly designed to highlight how bad corporate exploitation of various groups can be, why do people assume the game is promoting any of this stuff in a good light? Using imagery of fetishization without a strong counter-narrative as a backdrop to bolster dystopia cred is exploitation. We only have the fetishistic imagery to go off and with the sheer number of blunders some people are not convinced there will ever be the strong counter-narrative.
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# ¿ Oct 22, 2020 12:27 |
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generally making a huge stink about poo poo and putting companies on the defensive is more effective than quietly boycotting them
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# ¿ Oct 26, 2020 13:52 |
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# ¿ Oct 27, 2020 23:32 |
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1glitch0 posted:FF15 and Skyrim (not cars) pulled it off well since it came after you had done everything. it's a final fantasy tradition that you don't get the airship/equivalent until you've already traversed most of the world by other means
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# ¿ Oct 29, 2020 19:19 |
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# ¿ Apr 18, 2024 07:12 |
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Comte de Saint-Germain posted:what's a console? its the window with scrolling text on it you use to do a Hack
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# ¿ Nov 6, 2020 15:06 |