hobbesmaster posted:

Rhetoric [Trivial: FAILED]

Dapper_Swindler posted:

good point. Cyberpunk is super political and while it probably won't be Disco Elysium's level left leaning(AAA vs indie etc). its not gonna point to the corpos and the world and say "this is cool and good" and or "vote trump". part of the reason this poo poo is because shits been partisan/super heated for the last 8 years and its just ingrained into the online communities to turn every argument into a big political yelling match.

necrobobsledder posted:

I bought Disco Elysium like 2 weeks ago and those guys deserve more money. I mean, it’s point and click Planescape Torment minus combat, but given what they had to work with they’ve put out something quite remarkable. I fully expect none of these things from Cyberpunk but it’s not really what I’d expect from a more resource-heavy story branching setup. I’m not exactly expecting V to slip and die on a banana peel here

punk rebel ecks posted:

There's like a huge effort thread about the controversies in ResetEra that I kind of want to copy and post but I'm afraid that I'll be ridiculed for doing so.

punk rebel ecks posted:

Here's the link to the thread.

It's so extensive it's difficult for me to even do some highlights but I may attend to do so a bit later when I get home from work.

Context posted:

I want to start by giving some grounding to the issue as far too often we have the refrain of "it's just a game" levelled against us. The truth is that the majority of people don't know someone who is openly trans. Have had no known contact with someone that is openly trans and therefore have little direct relation to the issues we face, our lives and our bodies. The majority of information people do receive about us is via the media they consume. The issue here is that trans representation or depiction in media has historically been either through mockery or disgust, and more commonly now – fetishization. We are set dressing for laughs, for being reviled or for pleasure. Frequently reduced down to our genitals and bodies in favour of seeing a person. Due to this, the way media presents us is in direct relation to the abuse, harm and threats we face in life. For more of an understanding around this in relation to film, I recommend the Netflix documentary Disclosure. This issue extends across all media, including games and print. People frequently perceive us through these depictions and when we're presented as little more than a joke, that's what we're taken as.

So if it is 'just a game' to you, consider why it isn't able to be for others. How you can help others enjoy them as just games, and not something they have to question how much mockery or harm they're expected to endure while interacting with them.

Tweets posted:

On the 20th August 2018 the official Cyberpunk twitter posted this tweet response:



This initial instance can seem innocuous on the surface but it's a transphobic line conjured around "outrage culture" and the notion that trans people are looking to be offended. Which, naturally, is a common pushback from people that are being offensive and how this joke is usually employed. Trans people don't respond to being misgendered with "did you assume my gender?". In fact most trans people are terrified of even raising the fact that they are being misgendered. Contesting this is something that can frequently put you in harms way and unless you're speaking to an out and out ally it's always a dice roll as to how it will be received. Often it will be through mocking, and this is where the point of transphobic jokes is worth highlighting. It renders our identities as fanciful and frivolous; something to be tolerated instead of accepted. When trans identities aren't taken seriously it directly affects our ability to live as who we are.

There is no distinction between the joke and the transphobia because transphobia has persistently centered itself around the notion that we are a joke.

In response Cyberpunk posted this:



People who have had to deal with bigotry will recognise the all-too-common apology of "sorry to those offended". The apology isn't a recognition that their actions were transphobic nor a statement that trans identities are valid. Instead it appeals to that which we've just mentioned; those that see trans people as people constantly offended by everything. It doesn't offer a recognition that the act itself was the issue, but that it happened to offend some people.

...

A couple of months later, on the 22nd October 2018, the twitter account for CDPR's online storefront GOG posted this tweet:



This made light of the hashtag #WontBeErased on Twitter that, at the time, was trending because of a Trump administration memo that proposed a strict definition of gender based on a person’s genitalia at birth. Something that would work toward the erasure of trans identities. Anyone viewing the hashtag would have seen the context in which it sat. This wasn't the first issue the GOG twitter account had had either, with a prior tweet appealing to the same alt-right fanbase by posting a tweet around the death of journalism and Gamergate.

In response, and to their credit, GOG fired the person involved who then went on to work for an alt-right website. However three troubling tweets in almost as many months caused concern around the culture across the two companies, and the tolerance for transphobia in their working environment.

Cyberpunk 2077 Adverts / 'It's a Dystopia' posted:

In one of the gameplay reveals in June 2019 this poster was spotted on a surface in the game:



It depicts a fetishized caricature of a trans women, complete with over-emphasised erection, the phrase "Mix It Up" and the name of the advertised drink; "Chromanticore". The issue will be apparent to many but I'll break it down so it's clear. First of all you have the character; a fetishized image of a trans woman's body that is only there to highlight the "trans" nature of her. As mentioned in the opening paragraphs this falls into one of the common ways in which transphobia manifests; reducing us down to our genitals for display at the expense of any sense of us as people. "Mix It Up" implies the frivolous nature of being trans as though we pick and choose our gender identity. Again falling victim to another form of transphobia.

Finally we have "Chromanticore" which on a generous read is a mix of "chrome" and "manticore" and at worst "chromosome" and "manticore". Forgiving the ambiguity of the first word the second still becomes inherently insulting. A manticore is a mythical beast comprised of parts of different animals. On a more subtle level it literally means "man eater", where the fear of men being "tricked" into falling for a trans woman resonates – though I highly doubt this specific aspect was part of the thought process, it works to support the fact that we need more trans women working on products that aim to depict us. On the overt and obvious, it's depicting an over-emphasised trans woman while relating her to a beast. Trans people will know all too well the common insults thrown at them in disgust (3 for 3), relating them to being unnatural or monsters.

In response to the criticism raised, CDPR came out with a response that included the following justification:

“Personally, for me, this person is sexy,” Redesiuk said. “I like how this person looks. However, this model is used — their beautiful body is used — for corporate reasons. They are displayed there just as a thing, and that’s the terrible part of it.”

“This is all to show that [much like in our modern world], hypersexualization in advertisements is just terrible,” Redesiuk continued. “It was a conscious choice on our end to show that in this world — a world where you are a cyberpunk, a person fighting against corporations. That [advertisement] is what you’re fighting against.”

Which rings hollow in a few ways. The most apparent being that CDPR, themselves a massive corporation, are content to invoke this imagery and defend its use while simultaneously promoting the game as diverse and inclusive. This isn't just true of their use of it in the game, but also their literal use of it in offline events as set dressing and promo material:



Which only compounds the next point that you cannot state that it is terrible and what one is supposed to fight against, while continuing to position it front and center – completely decoupled from that message. It just becomes a transphobic advert being used to promote a game to make money for a massive corporation. In addition, there were cans of the drink available – a drink that is supposed to facilitate being trans – labelled as poison. One tone deaf incident is forgiven but when multiple elements come together, all transphobic, you start to question how much it's an articulation of issues in society, and how much it's using these things to reinforce a veneer of edge around their product. Appealing to a crowd of people all too content to mock trans people, at the expense of those being targeted.

This also isn't the only advert that comes at the expense of trans bodies either, as we can see below:



With no intent to explain the alleged nuance outside of defending the artwork, it's hard to take it seriously. These are plastered across Night City and seen in most promotional videos that have been put out about the game. No such video or message contextualizing these elements has been given alongside. Instead we have endless reams of how cool everything looks, what the guns are like and what Porsche model will be in the game. As mentioned earlier, if CDPR wanted to clarify these things and extend some consideration toward the trans community around them, they could – and would – have done. As it is, they're content to continue to use this imagery and claim diversity, all while leaving the extent of how much transphobic content will be in the game ambiguous to those trans people interested.

The response of "it's a dystopia it's meant to be bad" holds little weight as well when these things are constantly decoupled from any actual criticism. This is moving past the fact that just because a setting is supposed to be bad doesn't mean we need to lean on transphobia as a means to depict it. There's plenty of other awful things that the game will not invoke or use to facilitate this, and fetishizing and mocking us as the backdrop to it is an easy target. Especially in the knowledge that many fans see zero issue with these things, including Mike Pondsmith himself, so the extent to which that "terrible" message is landing is already minor.

Political Sympathies posted:

In among this, it's important to bring the grounding that CDPR operates from a country that's in the midst of a nationwide crackdown on trans people and all those within the LGBTQ+ community. This has garnered worldwide condemnation and even brought into question the IOC's choice of hosting the Olympics there. Townships have declared themselves LGBT-Free and propaganda seeking to exile members of the community is regularly passed around, in some cases even being included with news publications.

In addition to further raising suspicion around the internal culture of CDPR with regard transphobia, it also becomes a direct concern when met against the content being spoken of in the game. In particular because in a recent interview with Paweł Sasko, the Lead Quest Designer on CP77, the politics of staff was mentioned:

As a studio, we are such an amalgam of different people who have different approaches to political, religious, spiritual and internal life, also when it comes to sexual orientations or political sympathies. As a studio, we always try to cultivate openness and approach it in such a way that everyone can have a voice and to represent each of these shades, as long as it is of course within the law and reason - so that each player can find here something for everyone and find answers to your own questions.

Speaking to the importance of representing various political sympathies becomes concerning when you have both the above context and a company, and game, that have pandered to the alt-right and had numerous instances of transphobia. It becomes hard to not draw the line between this disregard of trans people in the game and in the output of the company, with that importance and the political climate of Poland.

If you are interested in learning more about the situation in Poland further information can be found here (1, 2, 3), and you can support directly here.

Character Creator posted:

After speaking heavily to how inclusive Cyberpunk 2077 would be, it's been confirmed that the character creator will tie the pronouns the game uses to refer to the character with, with the pitch of voice chosen. Meaning that if you choose a traditionally female body type but select a deeper voice, your character will be referred to as "he" or "him" in the game's dialogue. Voice pitch is a sensitive issue in the trans community and with transition as HRT has no bearing on your voice when transitioning as a trans woman, or toward transfeminine identities. As a direct result it becomes something that many trans people are conscious of when they attempt to pass, as it's an element that works against you when people frequently associate a deep voice to being a man, and a high voice to being a women. This in a very real sense is an issue of safety for trans people offline, as having a deeper voice while presenting femme can result in abuse. However it isn't an immediate black or white picture when it comes to how trans people feel about their voice outside of those issues. Your voice is as personal to you as anything else, and there are many trans people that would prefer to be able to feel comfortable using their real voice as opposed to putting in considerable effort toward changing it in the hope of better acceptance.

So the consequence of the character creator is one that allows for cis people to make a "chick with a dick" a la the controversial poster, at the expense of trans people being able to create characters that represent them. Once again, it seems to highlight the nature of "diversity" when it comes to CP77; that it's commonly aimed toward the cisgender crowd over showing consideration for transgender people and true inclusivity. This hasn't prevented CDPR from lapping up a lot of publicity claiming that it is inclusive though, and in effect having their cake and eating it. Too often we now have cis people come back to us touting this alleged inclusivity and character creator, in the face of our issues with the game.

Official Cosplay Competition posted:

Now we have the most recent example of CDPR's disdain for trans people. If you recall the defense for the caricature of the trans woman in the "Chromanticore" poster was that the fetishization of the trans character was to be seen as "terrible". Something CDPR claim to see as something that should be fought against. Which as discussed is already brought into question by their own use of it in offline promos, but is completely blown apart by their choice of finalist in their recent cosplay competition. Not just via social media, but in their official Night City Wire pre-presentation.



I do believe a cisgender woman can cosplay a trans woman, and that there's little issue if it's done respectfully. That isn't the case here though. This isn't a trans character in the game with any given depth, it's an illustration in an advert whose sole purpose is to fetishize the body of a trans woman, where her transness is reduced in full to her genitals and a comparison is drawn to a beast. The only reason it was of any note was because of the controversy surrounding it and the issues trans people had with it, so it's hard not to find the choice suspect in the first place.

What solidifies the problem is when the cisgender woman in question is treating that aspect of the trans woman as a joke; as something to laugh at. Drawing primary attention once again to the genitals and making it the central part of the cosplay. There's no desire to become any character, but instead become a walking mockery of a trans person that was only ever there to begin with as a fetishization. It's not as though cisgender women are de-facto in support of the rights of trans women, so when someone is treating our bodies as something to be laughed over, and is roleplaying us purely to serve for comedic purposes, I find it poor – to put it mildly. It further reinforces us as a joke, and that in itself is transphobic.

This loops back to the advert itself, as mentioned before the justification was that it was intended to be terrible, in addition to:



If it's designed to be a terrible and distasteful advert working at the expense of trans women – something CDPR themselves tells us we should be fighting against – you can't then decouple it from the criticism to use frivolously for laughs or promotional material. Promoting someone taking that imagery, further accenting and highlighting the parts we're supposed to take issue with, all while laughing about it, renders that original intent meaningless. Put bluntly; when you're flying people out to take part in a video shoot for your promo and they're walking around with a fake neon penis representing the thing you claim to hate, how can we take any notion of nuance around trans people, issues and bodies seriously within both CDPR and Cyberpunk 2077?

CDPR are content to exploit both their workers and trans people for financial gain, alongside courting an obvious and loud alt-right fanbase posted:

They are a transphobic company content to lean on inclusivity as a promotional tool at the expense of trans people. Consistently treating us with ridicule and afterthought while claiming the opposite. They are happy to foster a toxic work environment grinding their workers to the bone. They are happy to lean into the chud fanbase they know they've garnered over the years.

It is obvious they don't care about us, but they still care about the fans that stick with them regardless. So it is in this that I ask that even if you're hyped to jump into Night City, you become vocal about these issues and offer support in bringing their attention to CDPR. Whether it's here, on Twitter or in feedback forms – letting them know that you're a fan but you dislike the way they have acted toward the trans community is of value. If you aren't willing to be critical of a company you like while enjoying their product, at the expense of trans voices, then – insofar as I'm concerned – you can't consider yourself a trans ally. If that stings, it should, because it means that you're aware that you allow your excitement of a game prevent you from supporting the communities it takes advantage of.

What's often missing from the retorts is that I was once hyped for the game. The logo treatment reveal was stunning, the art direction posters were a lock for purchase. It looked great. However when it becomes a question of how much transphobic content I'll be expected to put up with as I attempt to enjoy the game, it's hard to remain enthused by it. It becomes a question of why I'm supporting a company that's repeatedly showing they're content to mock people like me, and perpetuate stereotypes that affect us offline in life. That continue the lines of thought that place our lives in danger and our respect in question.

This isn't some "rah rah boycott" motion that people like to distill it down to. It's what it feels like when you face a company and product that comes at the expense of you and others like you. If you don't know what that feels like, consider how fortunate it is that you get to engage with this medium without such a concern. Perhaps become more active in lending your voice toward choruses like this, so that we too can enjoy games without it. If there's one thing I'm sure of it's that both CDPR and Cyberpunk 2077 have the ability to be great without being transphobic.

grieving for Gandalf posted:

it seems like advertising and marketing in cyberpunk settings is meant to be troubling and make one think about the place of those institutions in our own society. the ad in CP2077 uses a fetishized image of a transwoman to sell soda or something, the point of which seems clear: exploitation this way to sell a product is wack

it's challenging media, and I have to say, it looks like it's working because now people are talking about transpeople's place in society and the commodification of their bodies because of it

am I way off base here?

Chalks posted:

There's a situation here where the tweets of a few individuals are being grouped with the depictions of trans people in game and used to say "this entire company is transphobic". I don't think that's really fair. There are lots of poorly informed people out there who don't fully understand these issues (no doubt including myself) but tweets like these speak of poor sensitivity training among marketing interns charged with running twitter accounts rather than some systemic issue in CDPR in particular.

Specifically about the depictions in game, I'm not sure it's reactionary to disagree that it's transphobic. My personal opinion on the content itself isn't terribly relevant, but in the past when this discussion has been had here there were trans people who disliked the depictions and trans people who liked it. I think that if something is universally condemned by a group it's a bad thing, and it's unlikely that anything will be universally praised - so if something is both liked and disliked by different representatives of the same group, then it's probably in an OK place.

I don't want to offend anyone or make anyone's opinions on these depictions seem invalid, the opinions of a trans person on this topic is far more relevant than my own, but hopefully this is OK to discuss.

One thing that constantly strikes me when this topic is discussed is that CDPR could have chosen to do what every other game does and avoided including any obviously trans characters in the game. My personal opinion is that this would be extremely unfortunate since it seems so obvious that they should be included in a setting like this, but I'm wondering if some people are saying they would have preferred this to seeing these sorts of depictions?

Chalks posted:

Yeah, I'm certainly not saying that they should only get to choose between a bad depiction or no depiction, but I would say that to have a coherent cyberpunk world, you have to have trans people completely accepted and normalised.

I don't think it would make sense if trans people were everywhere, but when ever you saw a prostitute or sexy poster, the person being depicted could never be trans. It would be really strange, and also probably offensive to the trans people who are comfortable with these depictions.

That's my opinion anyway. What I'm asking with my question is, even if what I say above would be true in a real cyberpunk world, is fetishisation just too close to home for some people in 2020's reality that they would prefer it wasn't depicted in this way at all?

I feel like a world where CDPR hand wave away the issue by saying "trans people are so normalised that nobody gives it a second thought" but don't allow them to be depicted in the same sexualised way as everyone else would be flawed and practically indistinguishable from zero representation.

Dapper_Swindler posted:

overall i think it makes good points but some of it goes a little "obviously CDPR knows about how much this hurts us and its on purpose" stuff. like i didnt even know about T/nb voice training/etc until i read about it because of the one article that gets linked that got mad because of the voice stuff, which i still dont think is fully true because i am pretty sure they have said earlier they have "they" options set up if you use differing body/voice/etc stuff. I do think CDPR is tonedeaf and needed to fire shitheads way sooner and hire actual experts and have better explanations. that being said, i dont think they are doing massive outreach to chuds because the chuds now think the game is "degeneracy" because you can play as a trans V. plus chuds are not good being coy with their hatred. like look at the GOG chud who was fired. he wasnt "clever" with his bigotry.

sebmojo posted:

the drink ad wasn't that though, it was presenting it as a cool and awesome thing that would make you buy #PRODUCT?

Dapper_Swindler posted:

true. i think its more that I trust Pondsmith and he has always been woke and progressive in good ways and he is pretty active in the development apparently. to me the ads are gross in the sense that its basicaly all those weird gross ads from the 1980s but this time also exploitive of trans/nb folk because its 2077 and no one cares about people being trans anymore now that you can make yourself look like a catgirl or an alien with cybernetics/genestuff. pondsmiths stuff is more 2000 AD than gibson.

sebmojo posted:

this is a good question, but it's one you would be better asking when the game comes out imo. we are peering at it through a keyhole.

DeadFatDuckFat posted:

Dapper_Swindler posted:

The Gadfly posted:

CDPR's marketing team has been poo poo in general.

• E3 2019 demo: Promised that they would release the closed door demo to everyone who couldn't attend an expo after the yearly cycle was complete. Released a complete shitpost 15min edited version instead.
  
• NCW episodes: Inability to QA one second clips for those that do not contain debug text, NPCs in T-poses, or graphical clipping.
  
• Twitter: Spends time replying to trollbait by making lame jokes in an attempt to dunk on them
  

It's just overall incompetence from the marketing team, especially when compared to the technical teams which are actually making the game. The good thing is that the marketing team is only relevant before the game is released. People will largely forget how the game was marketed after they start playing it.

punk rebel ecks posted:

The most annoying argument to me are people who argue about how games used to be like $100 adjusting for inflation back in the '90s.

What they again fail to realize are two things: #1 Carts taking up at least 20% of those costs. #2 Again games just not selling anywhere near as much as they are today. Most month to month comparisons the top selling games of 1994 wouldn't even make the top 10 today. Not to mention games like Final Fantasy III were the outlier as most games that charted were sub $50, which was around $85 in today's money which is certainly a step up in price but nothing unimaginable.

AirRaid posted:

I think the larger question for me is, set in a world which seems explicitly designed to highlight how bad corporate exploitation of various groups can be, why do people assume the game is promoting any of this stuff in a good light?

1glitch0 posted:

FF15 and Skyrim (not cars) pulled it off well since it came after you had done everything.

I'd love to see flying cars in an MMO because it would reflect what would happen if we had flying cars IRL.

Comte de Saint-Germain posted:

what's a console?