Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us $3,400 per month for bandwidth bills alone, and since we don't believe in shoving popup ads to our registered users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
«40 »
  • Locked thread
b-minus1
Jul 24, 2008



Juanito posted:

Thanks for the game.
I won!

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Dick Bastardly
Aug 22, 2012


Yami and Mr humalong, you both did well given your relative inexperience.

Lando131
Jul 27, 2006

This is one way to find scum...

Sorry for replacing out so early. I thought my role was cool but I didn't have it in me to even read the thread at first. I did follow along afterwards though. Bif literally destroyed the entire scum team solo, it was insane. I even figured she was intentionally trying to buff scum when she gave Anidav an upgrade, hoping to draw the game out to meet some win condition.

Dick Bastardly
Aug 22, 2012


Thanks for running Yams

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!

Yeah, this was actually impossible for scum.

Minimum 3 cops at start of the game(Joat/Cop/Shopkeeper). One of those was public, in thread, mod confirmed, and immune to the PGO.

In addition two more potential cops(Thief/Backup)

Also two starting confirmed town masons with great power roles(Doc/Jailer) who could also then recruit more players for coordination.

This makes it impossible for scum to win just based on possibility space. There is no possible way for scum to hide.

If I try real hard to run the sims in a scum favorable way I can find like one super lucky path for scum to win this game. It mostly involves every single town role visiting the PGO. Short of some super lucky thing like that, scum were doomed from the start.

Natural 20
Sep 17, 2007

So long, Ex-Ma Fergie!


So, this game ran into the problem that most role madness games do, including my first which is that in RM it is really really easy for town to claim into a victory without too much trouble.

My first ever game modding was WWF mafia and the game ended when a single scum died and the entire team got rolled by town confirming all their actions.

From then on I've always run vanilla players in my games to give scum a better chance of being able to win, since they can claim vanilla and know that they're doing it safely.

I actually think that's the coward's option to dealing with that problem.

Imo the best way of dealing with role madness is either the "Kashuno method", which is making every role so unfeasibly weird and crazy that nobody knows what's going on any more. (Which is difficult, unless you're, well, Kashuno, and also entails victories where I quad vote players to a scum win)

Or we start actually giving scum fake roles in role madness that they can freely claim into knowing that they won't see overlap. Part of that takes away from scum's creativity I guess, but I suspect knowing that there are some safe role claims to go to will spark more scum creativity in the long run.

Natural 20 fucked around with this message at Jun 22, 2018 around 19:47

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!

Natural 20 posted:

So, this game ran into the problem that most role madness games do, including my first which is that in RM it is really really easy for town to claim into a victory without too much trouble.

My first ever game modding was WWF mafia and the game ended when a single scum died and the entire team got rolled by town confirming all their actions.

From then on I've always run vanilla players in my games to give scum a better chance of being able to win, since they can claim vanilla and know that they're doing it safely.

I actually think that's the coward's option to dealing with that problem.

Imo the best way of dealing with role madness is either the "Kashuno method", which is making every role so unfeasibly weird and crazy that nobody knows what's going on any more. (Which is difficult, unless you're, well, Kashuno, and also entails victories where I quad vote players to a scum win)

Or we start actually giving scum fake roles in role madness that they can freely claim into knowing that they won't see overlap. Part of that takes away from scum's creativity I guess, but I suspect knowing that there are some safe role claims to go to will spark more scum creativity in the long run.

I think there are ways to get there without vanilla players(which I don't love) or providing role claims(but I actually like this idea anyway and am fine with it, I don't think I've seen any mods do this).

Another approach is more mixing in of traditional roles into the scum team and vice versa. We see this from time to time with some roles like roleblock or bus driver on the town side. But you can also mix it up the other way with trackers/watchers/docs or even traditional cops on the scum side. Like if the only cop in the game is on the scum side(and to be useful to scum obviously it will have to identify an SK or something), that provides them a perfectly safe claim of their existing role. We see the scum cops sometimes in games with multiple scum teams, but that isn't the only place it can be used.

Regardless of which way you go though, the key is just thinking about possible game states a few days in. Basically the more ways you have to confirm town(including starting with some in the form of confirmed masons) the less space you'll have for scum to hide in over time.

In this game, at the start of D2, in a 17 person game, it was possible to have 5 confirmed and 8 mostly confirmed players. (2 confirmed masons, 3 cop results, and the 3 cops with the results). That is over 50% of the living players on D2 and is just insanity. Small changes could have made this setup at least semi viable due to ending the game faster, such as adding another scum AND second scum kill via poison or something. Adding an SK. Or going another way entirely and making the setup a bit more of a bastard setup by including an entire scum team of godfathers, or adding in a bunch more millers, or adding in janitored flips to make someone look like town as scum or vice versa, changing the sanity of some of the cops, etc.

hambeet
Sep 13, 2002

Excuse me while I kiss this Guy...

Authorized by the Lowtax Spine Fund, Parliament House, Canberra


kB mentioned it already, but I was going to raise the idea of the mod providing scum with plausible claims. Gaspy did it for one of his Transformers games giving scum plausible role and flavour claims (for those not familiar with the source material). I think it worked really really well. Bif, tithin and anidav played so they might want to chime in on that.

hambeet
Sep 13, 2002

Excuse me while I kiss this Guy...

Authorized by the Lowtax Spine Fund, Parliament House, Canberra


Also I'm about to head off to work , but I would like to continue that conversation kB because it taps into where I was at about two years ago when I stopped playing mafia (because I took a sabbatical from the forums).

Basically my thoughts at that time were: meta cases are bad for mafia. Discuss.

Anomalous Amalgam
Feb 13, 2015

In time, you will know the tragic extent of my failings...


Doctor Rope

Fake claims are good in role madness imo, especially so in flavor heavy games,I feel Like it gives scum a better chance. The Nowl claim was a decent flavor claim by anidav, but yeah all other factors...

Anidav
Feb 25, 2010

Praise me. Tell others what I've accomplished. Erect a bronze statue of me. Respect me. Please make me... the Ultimate Avatar.


Town started with too many roles. If you cut each character in half and made them earn the other upgrade via the shop, it would've been great. However it lacked confusion, town had clarity basically from the start. Anna should've been a survivor who could use her gold to buy poison, lightning rods, lovers potions and more basically making her a self inventor. Her being a cop incentivises her to lean town because she has info but info isnt the point of being a third party.

Game should've been Unconfirmed masons (aka a neighbourhood) and only started with Chrom. I think recruiting the shop is kind of hosed up. Since fire emblem relies on conversations to convert people Chrom should roll a d10 for conversion.

Anidav fucked around with this message at Jun 22, 2018 around 21:55

Anomalous Amalgam
Feb 13, 2015

In time, you will know the tragic extent of my failings...


Doctor Rope

Beetphyxious posted:

Also I'm about to head off to work , but I would like to continue that conversation kB because it taps into where I was at about two years ago when I stopped playing mafia (because I took a sabbatical from the forums).

Basically my thoughts at that time were that and meta cases are bad for mafia. Discuss.

I just had a big post typed up about this for ongoing games.

Developing meta is inevitable, but I feel like it is off-putting to newer players.

On the other hand, it's become an underlying mechanic itself and people often rely on their meta to hide as scum or justify as town. So... is it bad for mafia, probably in general yes, but bad for how we've come to play the game, probably not so long as we can clearly explain and provide examples of meta to newer players to this community.

Anomalous Amalgam
Feb 13, 2015

In time, you will know the tragic extent of my failings...


Doctor Rope

I hate meta, but it has it's place...

I've been nailed as scum from meta and speech patterns, I've also gotten away as scum by defending my meta as a moron.

hambeet
Sep 13, 2002

Excuse me while I kiss this Guy...

Authorized by the Lowtax Spine Fund, Parliament House, Canberra


Actually that's just reminded me somebody ran and auspol Mafia for auspol Mafia players. So that game was meta free because everybody was playing as somebody else's style.

That was fun

Anidav
Feb 25, 2010

Praise me. Tell others what I've accomplished. Erect a bronze statue of me. Respect me. Please make me... the Ultimate Avatar.


I think that was Mills lmao

Anomalous Amalgam
Feb 13, 2015

In time, you will know the tragic extent of my failings...


Doctor Rope

Beetphyxious posted:

Actually that's just reminded me somebody ran and auspol Mafia for auspol Mafia players. So that game was meta free because everybody was playing as somebody else's style.

That was fun

That would be fun.

I feel sorry for the rear end in a top hat whoever had to role play me...

Claim d1 or early d2 for no reason.

Don't read any of the current game day, start catching up and find what you think is an a-ha, derail the thread

Argue at length into the wind

Realize you missed something glaringly obvious in your PM

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!

Beetphyxious posted:

Also I'm about to head off to work , but I would like to continue that conversation kB because it taps into where I was at about two years ago when I stopped playing mafia (because I took a sabbatical from the forums).

Basically my thoughts at that time were: meta cases are bad for mafia. Discuss.

Yup, I'm ready to discuss this whenever. I brought it up in dead chat already with Gulag but here is the gist of it.

There are tons of people who play mafia on SA that really don't put in a ton of effort. This is not a criticism of them, it is how they find their fun. They pop in here and there, try and keep up with the thread, and post a thing or two and that is their involvement.

I was putting in a crazy amount of time in playing these games. Reading and rereading, making elaborate cases, etc. I started to fall off a bit because I didn't have as much time, and suddenly I was being cased because "KB isn't making big cases/he isn't putting in as much effort, he must be scum". In a game where there were people who were lurking and barely posting at all, this felt especially bad to me. It was ok for them to be low effort, but not me. Why should I have to put more work in then others?

So that led to my new meta. It isn't just for show. I stopped rereading threads looking for scum until closer to end game if I'm still in it. So now I'm legit putting in less effort, as such I'm less committed and I feel less bad about dying/losing/whatever. I do have to hold myself back from posting here and there to stick to it since my natural state is to chat and probe and problem solve, but it's fine.

In every game so far where it has been bought up, people get mad at me for it, but the people who do are also not really doing much? So it's like, pot/kettle? Basically, if we as a community are ok with low effort play, I'm not sure why some people should be held to a higher standard. It is either all ok or it isn't.

---

In terms of your comment about meta in general, I don't think there is any getting around it. As you get to know people, you can feel sometimes when something is off. This happens in real life social deduction games too. You can't really outlaw it, because even if you do, it will still be informing how they go about generating their reads in some cases.

Bifauxnen
Aug 11, 2010

YOLO FRONTLINE


In JoJo 3 I went all out providing not only fakeclaim characters to scum, but also examples of how they could explain their actual fakeclaimed Stand power as well. Since I figured people might be way behind on the tricky flavor.

but then they didn't even use it!

Anidav
Feb 25, 2010

Praise me. Tell others what I've accomplished. Erect a bronze statue of me. Respect me. Please make me... the Ultimate Avatar.


The beard moustache and watermelon flavour should not have existed because it weakened fake claims massively.

Even the backbone I put into the Nowi claim didn't matter.

GulagDolls
Jun 4, 2011



it's too bad that podima was killed in space and has his form assumed by a typhon organism. i will never forget him

Bifauxnen
Aug 11, 2010

YOLO FRONTLINE


Anidav posted:

The beard moustache and watermelon flavour should not have existed because it weakened fake claims massively.

Even the backbone I put into the Nowi claim didn't matter.

oh yeah, this is a criticism I had in FF7 as well. Flavour confirmation of actions makes things even more difficult for scum, and ideally shouldn't happen in role madness games, imo. It's tempting cause it's fun and it's more flavour, but it adds a whole extra level of possible town confirmation making things that much harder to work around.

hambeet
Sep 13, 2002

Excuse me while I kiss this Guy...

Authorized by the Lowtax Spine Fund, Parliament House, Canberra


Bifauxnen posted:

In JoJo 3 I went all out providing not only fakeclaim characters to scum, but also examples of how they could explain their actual fakeclaimed Stand power as well. Since I figured people might be way behind on the tricky flavor.

but then they didn't even use it!

Maybe it was your game and not gaspys, sorry, because I remember the stands.

Maybe it was both?

Tired Moritz
Mar 25, 2012

wish Lowtax would get tired of YOUR POSTS

(n o i c e)


there was watermelon in this game?

Bifauxnen
Aug 11, 2010

YOLO FRONTLINE


Tired Moritz posted:

there was watermelon in this game?

drat don't act like you can't even remember I was here, that's cold

hambeet
Sep 13, 2002

Excuse me while I kiss this Guy...

Authorized by the Lowtax Spine Fund, Parliament House, Canberra


King Burgundy posted:

Yup, I'm ready to discuss this whenever. I brought it up in dead chat already with Gulag but here is the gist of it.

There are tons of people who play mafia on SA that really don't put in a ton of effort. This is not a criticism of them, it is how they find their fun. They pop in here and there, try and keep up with the thread, and post a thing or two and that is their involvement.

I was putting in a crazy amount of time in playing these games. Reading and rereading, making elaborate cases, etc. I started to fall off a bit because I didn't have as much time, and suddenly I was being cased because "KB isn't making big cases/he isn't putting in as much effort, he must be scum". In a game where there were people who were lurking and barely posting at all, this felt especially bad to me. It was ok for them to be low effort, but not me. Why should I have to put more work in then others?

So that led to my new meta. It isn't just for show. I stopped rereading threads looking for scum until closer to end game if I'm still in it. So now I'm legit putting in less effort, as such I'm less committed and I feel less bad about dying/losing/whatever. I do have to hold myself back from posting here and there to stick to it since my natural state is to chat and probe and problem solve, but it's fine.

In every game so far where it has been bought up, people get mad at me for it, but the people who do are also not really doing much? So it's like, pot/kettle? Basically, if we as a community are ok with low effort play, I'm not sure why some people should be held to a higher standard. It is either all ok or it isn't.


Okay fair enough. In the game it sounded more like a can't beat them? join them! approach to lurkers which is obviously counter productive. (Being that if everyone took that approach the game would become unplayable).

It also sounds more like you've adjusted to a style that works better for you across both town and scum, is that fair to say? I found my prolific poo poo posting style comes very easy to me when either town or scum, building cases too whenever I deign to do it.

On the 'being held to a higher standard' my approach was always to promote punishing the lurkers. If there's no room to lurk, and its applied consistently across all games by all players (eg. never not lynch lurkers), you hopefully end up having less lurking.

From memory, Auspol Mafia games of yore didn't really have huge issue with lurkers because we always jumped on them early.


quote:

---

In terms of your comment about meta in general, I don't think there is any getting around it. As you get to know people, you can feel sometimes when something is off. This happens in real life social deduction games too. You can't really outlaw it, because even if you do, it will still be informing how they go about generating their reads in some cases.

Of course you can't ask people to not learn people's behaviour, however you can tell people to stop making cases made solely on meta. Like, I've seen cases made this game based solely on another game and I think that's poor mafia personally.

There's still quite a bit of wiggle room between "hmm your playing differently" and tunnelling on them / to scraping their post history and creating an argument based solely on quotes from other threads, don't you think?

Natural 20
Sep 17, 2007

So long, Ex-Ma Fergie!


So I've been meta casing a fair bit because I have a small log of what I perceive of everyone from most of the games I play.

I honestly fail to see the issue? I'd forget all this meta stuff because it's not something I've the memory for. But I know it exists and I can use it to better back up my suspicions with evidence.

hambeet
Sep 13, 2002

Excuse me while I kiss this Guy...

Authorized by the Lowtax Spine Fund, Parliament House, Canberra


Natural 20 posted:

So I've been meta casing a fair bit because I have a small log of what I perceive of everyone from most of the games I play.

I honestly fail to see the issue? I'd forget all this meta stuff because it's not something I've the memory for. But I know it exists and I can use it to better back up my suspicions with evidence.

Well here's a random grab bag:

1. It's only possible with the same group of players.

If it was all new players everytime you would have to play the game you're in, not every other game you've been in as well.

2. It's self reinforcing.

It can be a barrier / disincentive for new players meaning you're generally stuck with a similar group. See point 1.

3. Players are punished for trying new / different styles.

KB seems like a good example of this. Unless every player disclaimed at the start of each game they were "trying something new", players can lose out for growing their game. Also, such disclaimers at the start by all players would render all meta useless anyway. Hmm maybe everyone should do this from now on.



There are more, but I'm tired and it's been a couple of years.

I said earlier that noticing familiar players play differently is unavoidable. Quoting from other games as your sole means of proving a point in the current game is easily avoidable.

Maybe it comes down to a difference in philosophies. If winning at all costs is more important than just having fun, then yeah, maybe that's the only justification for meta cases?

Natural 20
Sep 17, 2007

So long, Ex-Ma Fergie!


Beetphyxious posted:

Well here's a random grab bag:

1. It's only possible with the same group of players.

If it was all new players everytime you would have to play the game you're in, not every other game you've been in as well.

2. It's self reinforcing.

It can be a barrier / disincentive for new players meaning you're generally stuck with a similar group. See point 1.

3. Players are punished for trying new / different styles.

KB seems like a good example of this. Unless every player disclaimed at the start of each game they were "trying something new", players can lose out for growing their game. Also, such disclaimers at the start by all players would render all meta useless anyway. Hmm maybe everyone should do this from now on.



There are more, but I'm tired and it's been a couple of years.

I said earlier that noticing familiar players play differently is unavoidable. Quoting from other games as your sole means of proving a point in the current game is easily avoidable.

Maybe it comes down to a difference in philosophies. If winning at all costs is more important than just having fun, then yeah, maybe that's the only justification for meta cases?

1. Yes, obviously. But we consistently play the game with a similar group of players. It's silly to sit there and just ignore that it happens and play to some far off ideal of what mafia should be and often it's counterproductive to do so. For example as a moderator and scum player I observed that SA games tend to die because people just naturally lurk and scum lurk victories where they repeatedly just kill off vocal posters are often trivial. This is absolutely terrible for people playing overall and means that ultimately you get stuff like KB's frustration where he stops posting because people aren't putting effort in, or newbies just seeing silent games and thinking it's par for the course.

So I make rules in the games I mod like lurker guns etc. because each game logically affects the next game along that's played. So discouraging metas that are bad for the community as a whole is something I seek to do across my games. But given that I'm aware of this as a moderator, I think it's reasonable and smart for players to be aware of it and act in that way as well.

2. I'm unclear on this, yes? Of course? It's not really a barrier since the players who consistently own me tend to be newer players as I'm much blinder to them. I suppose commenting on a player's meta might be an exclusive conversation, but if you're trying to build a case it's to your benefit to be inclusive in your argumentation, which means sourcing your meta read so that it's easy for people without that familiarity to understand.

3. In terms of new meta creation, I'm unsure that this is true? Certainly meta reads that I make are "Are these people playing as I would expect them to play when I have seen them as scum/town" if neither is true then obviously my meta read is incomplete. I come down hard on KB's new meta because imo it's "My new meta is playing badly" when Bif did the same thing, where she chose to be less aggressive in games, some people commented on it being odd in the first game they played, but given that it wasn't consistent with any of her previous approaches, it read as neutral in terms of change.

Like I'm not trying to win mafia at all costs. On scum I purposely go for incredibly suboptimal plays because they're interesting, in this game I lied about not being Severa for a full day because I thought it would be a laugh. But I just see meta argumentation as something that exists and that we can either ignore or lean into with the latter leading to more positive results.

GulagDolls
Jun 4, 2011



Natural 20 posted:



Like I'm not trying to win mafia at all costs.

i noticed...

hambeet
Sep 13, 2002

Excuse me while I kiss this Guy...

Authorized by the Lowtax Spine Fund, Parliament House, Canberra


Natural 20 posted:

1. Yes, obviously. But we consistently play the game with a similar group of players. It's silly to sit there and just ignore that it happens and play to some far off ideal of what mafia should be and often it's counterproductive to do so. For example as a moderator and scum player I observed that SA games tend to die because people just naturally lurk and scum lurk victories where they repeatedly just kill off vocal posters are often trivial. This is absolutely terrible for people playing overall and means that ultimately you get stuff like KB's frustration where he stops posting because people aren't putting effort in, or newbies just seeing silent games and thinking it's par for the course.

So I make rules in the games I mod like lurker guns etc. because each game logically affects the next game along that's played. So discouraging metas that are bad for the community as a whole is something I seek to do across my games. But given that I'm aware of this as a moderator, I think it's reasonable and smart for players to be aware of it and act in that way as well.

2. I'm unclear on this, yes? Of course? It's not really a barrier since the players who consistently own me tend to be newer players as I'm much blinder to them. I suppose commenting on a player's meta might be an exclusive conversation, but if you're trying to build a case it's to your benefit to be inclusive in your argumentation, which means sourcing your meta read so that it's easy for people without that familiarity to understand.

3. In terms of new meta creation, I'm unsure that this is true? Certainly meta reads that I make are "Are these people playing as I would expect them to play when I have seen them as scum/town" if neither is true then obviously my meta read is incomplete. I come down hard on KB's new meta because imo it's "My new meta is playing badly" when Bif did the same thing, where she chose to be less aggressive in games, some people commented on it being odd in the first game they played, but given that it wasn't consistent with any of her previous approaches, it read as neutral in terms of change.

Like I'm not trying to win mafia at all costs. On scum I purposely go for incredibly suboptimal plays because they're interesting, in this game I lied about not being Severa for a full day because I thought it would be a laugh. But I just see meta argumentation as something that exists and that we can either ignore or lean into with the latter leading to more positive results.

I've been meaning to come back to this and give it an effort reply, but I've been extremely busy with work and other stuff.

So here's a half effort response:

I'm not saying we ignore it, I've even clearly said it's unavoidable noticing someone is playing different, however we can actually avoid basing all of our games on it. Specifically quoting from other threads to build a case I think is tremendously unfair as you're now using a players previous games games against them irrespective on their ability (and growth)overall, if they were having a bad day in one thread, a bad role in another, posting restrictions in a third or a multitude of other things that could affect it.

I'm not going on some rant on how I think Mafia should be played, whatever floats your boat, however I think it would be good if people could draw a line under things that would ultimately be unproductive (imo) for such an insular community, as I think meta plays are. Fast forward 12 months from now where every game looks like a literature review quoting half a dozen other threads.

Lurker policy is another matter, which auspol mafia treated with the 'never not lynch' lurker policy and from my hazy memory it seemed to work pretty well, but everyone needs to be on board, scum included, that plays that make the game actively worse should be punished.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

hambeet
Sep 13, 2002

Excuse me while I kiss this Guy...

Authorized by the Lowtax Spine Fund, Parliament House, Canberra


tl;dr:

"hey you're playing differently" < - i have no problem with this
"hey they're playing differently, check out this bibliography of their posts from other games i've collated and cross referenced" < - bad mafia badfia.

  • Locked thread
«40 »