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I want Lucario to be good so bad 
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May 27, 2020 03:58
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| # ? Apr 26, 2024 06:37 |
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Captain Invictus posted:Yeah doesn't one of his upward sword swings do like 40 in one hit but he's slow as molasses. However if you're not careful, you'll get swept away in a molasses flood A flood of molasses can travel up to 35 mph. Bleck posted:it's impossible to suggest anything to fix mac because people who play this game think that it wouldn't be fun for characters to be good tl;dr: In order for Little Mac to be "fun" and "good," he needs to not be Little Mac. The thing about balancing for a fighting game is that a character needs to be a viable option with respect to the rest of the cast (unless they're obviously meant to be a joke character, like Dan Hibiki or Melee's Pichu) or else nobody will want to play as them because they lose all the time, but they also need to be fun to fight against, or else people will opt to just not play the game if that character is chosen. With Little Mac's current design, it's frankly impossible to achieve both - Little Mac is effectively missing half of his moveset, so realistically speaking, he isn't a viable character in Smash. But if they overtune his numbers in order to make up for that, he's no longer fun to fight against. I mean, the guy already has a frame 1 jab; super armour on all his kill moves; his slowest smash attack is frame 15 (fsmash tilted down), which is nutty fast, and that one breaks shields and does 24% uncharged; he's the third fastest runner in the game; he occasionally gets access to a move that hits on frame 9, is unblockable, and kills Jigglypuff off the top at 8%.... Saying that he's fun to fight against as he is now is a stretch, and Sakurai understood that, if he wanted to maintain his vision of Mac "not being an air fighter," he had to make his ground game bullshit-overpowered to compensate. There is no angle where Little Mac could be considered a well designed character, and that was intentional, because Smash is, if nothing else, loyal to the source material of the games its characters come from, even to the detriment of its, or at least Little Mac's, own competitive balance.
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May 27, 2020 04:02
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Bleck posted:Kirby Nah, last couple of patches have done a lot of work to pull Kirby out of the garbage heap. He's still not great, but I see him putting up results of some kind now and people are moving him out of 'the worst (non-Mac) tier' to sometimes the tier or two above that. 5.0 Kirby, hell yeah, he was probably 2nd and not even that far from Mac. But now it's a lot harder to just say Kirby's the 2nd worst, especially because I'd be hard pressed to name a super-heavyweight he doesn't having a winning matchup now in his current incarnation outside, weirdly, Charizard.
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May 27, 2020 04:02
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Although there isn't complete consensus on how all the fighters stack up, PGRU did a survey of a bunch of top players rating each fighter. That data was used to make a tier list with all fighters ranked accordingly, with a 1-10 rating for each. Here's the tweet showing the tier list: https://twitter.com/Jaaahsh/status/1229812803852173313 And here's a video of Zero discussing the results: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhgY1VIT3_8
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May 27, 2020 04:17
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Mr. Locke posted:But now it's a lot harder to just say Kirby's the 2nd worst. no it's not, watch me do it - Kirby is the 2nd worst character
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May 27, 2020 05:20
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Maple Leaf posted:circular argument people keep saying this as though a bunch of mac's ground tools are not analogous to a bunch of other characters' tools except functioning the implicitly "unfun" way people describe playing against mac almost always doubles as a succinct description of why it's not fun to play against Joker but people just sort of accept that one because he's "Well Designed", and if you ask them to explain why he's Well Designed they say if he wasn't, he wouldn't be fun to play against basically this discussion is always horseshit
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May 27, 2020 05:23
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It's you, you're the second worst character.
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May 27, 2020 05:25
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that's...that's the joke 
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May 27, 2020 05:25
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Electric Phantasm posted:It's you, you're the second worst character. woe betide the poster worse than me
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May 27, 2020 05:28
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The big thing to keep in mind re: tier lists is that they only apply to one "mode". FFA is going to have a different tier list than 1v1 which will be different than doubles and so on. Wi-Fi and offline will also be different. The VAST majority of tier lists you see will be for 1v1, offline, no items, standard comp stages (FD, BF, SV, PS2, KPL, YS, TnC), because that's both the easiest to collect and process data for and because that's what most players who care about tier lists will find valuable. Change up the format and the tiers can change a LOT. Mac goes from bottom 3 in that format to top 20 in FFAs (because he's harder to counterplay in the chaos of an FFA) or on Wi-Fi (because lag makes punishing him much riskier). In standard 1v1, what makes a character "top tier" generally is a combination of powerful tools in neutral (Palu nair, Peach Float aerials, Pika nair fair and uair, etc.) and an effective kill confirm (A way to consistently kill with a low commitment option, like Joker falling uair > smash or Wario tilts > waft). As you go down the tier list these two elements will be either less available or not available at all.
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May 27, 2020 05:33
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Rupert Buttermilk posted:Finally picking this game up next month for my birthday and I couldn't be more pumped Banjo is the must-buy! Everyone else your mileage varies! Skip Byleth, waste of a roster spot 
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May 27, 2020 05:35
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Parrotine posted:Skip Byleth, waste of a roster spot 
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May 27, 2020 06:05
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Bleck posted:people keep saying this as though a bunch of mac's ground tools are not analogous to a bunch of other characters' tools except functioning Mac is unfun because he's almost unbeatable in his one good point- seriously, running at Mac on the ground in neutral is goddamn stupid- but that's all Mac's got. He's got no advantage state. His disadvantage is uniquely terrible. His counterplay is to just stand over THERE on that thing and ignore Mac until he fucks up because literally the only thing Mac does well he does so much better then anyone else in the game that him having other tools would start to push him from useless to insufferable because if you ever have to engage Mac's grounded neutral because of his other strength, you just lose. And if Mac's grounded neutral actually lead to anything besides 30% damage and a reset to neutral, it'd be worse then Brawl Metaknight due to how polarizing it is. Also, nobody universally defends Joker, you and your strawman are both dumbasses. Arsene was jacked at launch and is still kind low-key broken. There's no reason it needs to have Ike Power, Ike Reach, Joker's speed, and still having the best reflector and the best counter in the game. No, come on, why? Downguns were REALLY stupid once people figured out how good they were and now are actually kinda poo poo outside loving certain recoveries- they're nowhere near the 'get out of disadvantage free' tool they were when their hitbox was this gigantic column under Joker. Rest of Joker is basically just what Shiek wanted to be at launch and is... fine, I guess? He seems to be able to flex between annoying rushdown dude and annoying zoning dude and the fact he's fast enough to choose between the two at will probably would make him a high-tier without the Big Red rear end in a top hat, but he still has said rear end in a top hat and he'll never be worse then top tier until they gut that fucker like a fish.
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May 27, 2020 06:06
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Parrotine posted:Skip Byleth, waste of a roster spot paging Sharrrk to the Smash Bros. thread Sharrrk, you have been paged to the Smash Bros. thread
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May 27, 2020 06:12
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No one has ever produced a "good" tier list. They're all completely useless.
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May 27, 2020 06:54
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Reiley posted:No one has ever produced a "good" tier list. They're all completely useless. not true  
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May 27, 2020 07:06
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How long did it take for Melee to get a decent tier list? 7-8 years?
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May 27, 2020 07:17
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sharrrk posted:not true Ike could 100% lift a piano if he tried hard enough
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May 27, 2020 07:28
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Also Villager doesn't actually need a tool to pick up a piano, they can just pick it up.
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May 27, 2020 07:29
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SeANMcBAY posted:How long did it take for Melee to get a decent tier list? 7-8 years? It wasn't that long, but the tier list reflects meta so when new poo poo was found in Melee that change it the list started to change along side it. Like, no one thought Yoshi was poo poo until you started factoring in his parrying and ability to combo really well, but that poo poo was unheard of upon release. Melee's first tier list in 2002 got a lot of it right but with some strange poo poo like Falcon being lower on the list, Zelda being high up for some reason:  Here's the most current tier list I could find:  It was pretty good back in 2002.
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May 27, 2020 07:51
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sharrrk posted:not true Piranha plant isn’t an animal it’s a plant! Also putting Mac in “cannot type” because of his boxing gloves is funny.
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May 27, 2020 08:21
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Dear Little Mac, How do you type with boxing gloves on? Mike, Smash thread, Oregon
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May 27, 2020 09:16
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sharrrk posted:not true Toon Link should absolutely be in the lift with tools league, thanks to the Power Bracelets. And Lucario should be there too at the least. There are no scrawny Fighting type Pokemon.
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May 27, 2020 09:22
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Reiley posted:No one has ever produced a "good" tier list. They're all completely useless. The HNK one that orders the cast by how easy it is to confirm your ToD is pretty cool
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May 27, 2020 11:19
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Mr. Locke posted:He's got no advantage state. His disadvantage is uniquely terrible. His counterplay is to just stand over THERE on that thing and ignore Mac until he fucks up "Little Mac can't approach and has no advantage state and that's why he has the best ground game in the game"
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May 27, 2020 13:12
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Bleck posted:people keep saying this as though a bunch of mac's ground tools are not analogous to a bunch of other characters' tools except functioning Joker is also not a well-designed character and he was never fun to fight against, hth Bleck posted:"Little Mac can't approach and has no advantage state and that's why he has the best ground game in the game" The thing about "advantage state" in Smash specifically is that 95% of the time, it involves putting an opponent in the air. Little Mac is in a uniquely terrible position where he can have most of the best grounded tools in the game and still not be in a position to pressure or follow up when his opponent is in disadvantage. You seem to be pretty strongly against the notion that Little Mac can't be good and fun to play against as he is now. Without changing his design, what would you change on him to make him both a mid-tier-at-worst character that's also fun to fight against? Maple Leaf fucked around with this message at 13:42 on May 27, 2020 |
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May 27, 2020 13:37
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Maple Leaf posted:The thing about "advantage state" in Smash specifically is that 95% of the time, it involves putting an opponent in the air. Little Mac is in a uniquely terrible position where he can have most of the best grounded tools in the game and still not be in a position to pressure or follow up when his opponent is in disadvantage. consider; if the crux of a grounded game is how well it leads to advantageous aerials - a notion that I agree with - then how does Little Mac, a character who literally cannot do that, have a good ground game you could also argue that a good ground game is one that leads to a lot of tech chases and/or grounded pressure - which you might notice that Mac also cannot do Maple Leaf posted:You seem to be pretty strongly against the notion that Little Mac can't be good and fun to play against as he is now. Without changing his design, what would you change on him to make him both a mid-tier-at-worst character that's also fun to fight against? I feel like "without changing his design" is a vague qualifier here that's intended to make the goalposts as mobile as possible
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May 27, 2020 13:46
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Bleck posted:consider; if the crux of a grounded game is how well it leads to advantageous aerials - a notion that I agree with - then how does Little Mac, a character who literally cannot do that, have a good ground game I feel like this is less us disagreeing on what Little Mac is good or bad at, and more us being confused on what the phrase "ground game" means in Smash. I never considered a "strong ground game" to be "grounded option > aerial option" - since the grounded option, upon success, puts you in advantage, that's advantage state, not ground game. I consider a strong ground game to be the one or two options that gets you into advantage - in Mac's case, almost literally anything outside of grabs - but I also think that ground game and advantage state are two distinct but inextricable things. If you'd like to argue this point further, then I'll just concede and agree that Little Mac has the worst grounded game in the roster  Bleck posted:I feel like "without changing his design" is a vague qualifier here that's intended to make the goalposts as mobile as possible You could, alternatively, assume that I'm not arguing in bad faith. But if you want me to be more specific: how would you make Little Mac 1) good, 2) fun to fight against, and 3) as per his current design, is strong on the ground but is weak to the point of ineffectiveness in the air?
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May 27, 2020 14:08
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sharrrk posted:not true But if you get a room full of infinite Diddy Kongs typing for eternity, one of them will eventually produce Shakespeare.
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May 27, 2020 14:19
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Inu posted:But if you get a room full of infinite Diddy Kongs typing for eternity, one of them will eventually produce Shakespeare. Diddiam Kongspeare
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May 27, 2020 14:35
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sharrrk posted:not true Why is Dr Mario better at lifting pianos than Mario?
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May 27, 2020 14:43
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How come Corn can't read? Is this lore?
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May 27, 2020 15:03
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Cattail Prophet posted:Why is Dr Mario better at lifting pianos than Mario? He’s stronger
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May 27, 2020 15:06
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Cattail Prophet posted:Why is Dr Mario better at lifting pianos than Mario? He's stronger but slower.
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May 27, 2020 15:07
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In Training posted:How come Corn can't read? Is this lore? Corn is a dumbass
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May 27, 2020 16:04
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Maple Leaf posted:You could, alternatively, assume that I'm not arguing in bad faith. But if you want me to be more specific: how would you make Little Mac 1) good, 2) fun to fight against, and 3) as per his current design, is strong on the ground but is weak to the point of ineffectiveness in the air? not saying he should get all of these at once, but any would help a lot: - give Mac the SF/FF style 'always face opponents in 1v1' thing, but only if they also reduce his initial dash speed so he can more consistently space things - reduce the time it takes to drop shield by two frames (in fact, I maintain that they should do this across the board) - increase Mac's weight - make Mac's jab two or three frames slower, but give it similar knockback growth and angle as the Koopaling's - change the knockback angle of Mac's forward tilt to be more horizontal and reduce the knockback growth substantially (he already has five other kill moves, it would be nice if he could pressure somebody into a position where he can land one without completely removing his opponent's agency), also - give aerial side special the same intangibility frames it gets on the ground - remove the super armor on the Straight Lunge charging, but let Mac store it like DK's Giant Punch, then make it travel a similar distance in the air, but do significantly reduced knockback and damage like his other specials more outlandish and complex stuff that I would do if I were King of Smash: - change Mac's up tilt to be a fast, mostly-upwards jab that has bad horizontal range and relatively high endlag, so he has a functional anti-air that he can't subsequently abuse (think Ryu's up tilt but without the combos or special canceling) - remove the KO meter, make Slip Counter do fixed, 'back to neutral' level knockback, but make a successful counter of a non-projectile attack give Mac a star, up to three, where each star boosts the power and range of the next up smash (a three star up smash would be similar to the current KO Punch) - change Rising Uppercut to have a slower startup in the air, but a similar execution to Roy's up special, or rather like Kirby's Rising Break when he has Fighter power in Super Star - give Mac a leopard-print leotard costume
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May 27, 2020 17:27
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Whenever I hop on smash with my brother if he plays as Robin he starts chanting "me robin me moron me shoot you with thoron" and he usually lands it I just screech and flap a bunch as a giant dumb dragon and shout RIDE OR DIE RBA Starblade fucked around with this message at 17:43 on May 27, 2020 |
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May 27, 2020 17:41
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These all actually sound like pretty neat ideas, with the exception of being able to store Straight Lunge, since his recovery is supposed to be a major sticking point: if he gets the same distance in the air as he does on the ground, and he can store it, he's never going to want to approach unless he has it, similar to how Cloud played in Smash 4. Having it be like a worse version of Green Missile would be a better application without adjusting his ground play and without giving him a huge burst recovery, making his recovery better but still lovely. But the rest of it sounds pretty rad, I'd like to see how this version of Mac plays out.
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May 27, 2020 18:03
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little mac is canonically able to take his gloves off you fake fans!!!
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May 27, 2020 18:19
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Augus posted:little mac is canonically able to take his gloves off you fake fans!!! He's just wearing Macflesh colored gloves
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May 27, 2020 18:24
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