Ancap thread

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Wheeee: Mar 11, 2001; When a tree grows, it is soft and pliable. But when it's dry and hard, it dies.

Hardness and strength are death's companions. Flexibility and softness are the embodiment of life.

That which has become hard shall not triumph.

Gizmoduck_5000 posted:

Okay, I'm really, really dumb on this subject.

I get that NAP means I'm not allowed to punch master because of reasons...

But what does "Valhalla DRO" represent?

It's an in-joke company name to stand in for any generic DRO, or dispute resolution organization, which is basically what it sounds like. Libertarians literally believe that the judicial system should be replaced by private military contractors like Blackwater because reasons

yes, it is precisely as stupid as it sounds

# ? Jun 18, 2018 02:23

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# ? Apr 23, 2024 11:11

rudatron: May 31, 2011; by Fluffdaddy

Whats to stop the DRO setting themselves up as a new state or running a protection racket.

# ? Jun 18, 2018 02:25

Helsing: Aug 23, 2003; DON'T POST IN THE ELECTION THREAD UNLESS YOU JOE BIDEN

Because then they'd receive bad yelp reviews and would be winnowed out of existence by the efficiency of the market.

# ? Jun 18, 2018 02:46

Dreddout: Oct 1, 2015; You must stay drunk on writing so reality cannot destroy you.

rudatron posted:

Whats to stop the DRO setting themselves up as a new state or running a protection racket.

The NAP, duh

# ? Jun 18, 2018 02:47

Goon Danton: May 24, 2012; Don't forget to show my shitposts to the people. They're well worth seeing.

rudatron posted:

Whats to stop the DRO setting themselves up as a new state or running a protection racket.

Ancap answer: monopolies don't happen on the Free Market, they're solely due to state intervention, so a DRO couldn't monopolize the DRO market

Nozick answer: nothing, this would inevitably happen, which is why states are justified by the Free Market

# ? Jun 18, 2018 03:02

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

rudatron posted:

Whats to stop the DRO setting themselves up as a new state or running a protection racket.

it�s not a state. says so in the contracts.

# ? Jun 18, 2018 03:07

Grand Theft Autobot: Feb 28, 2008; I'm something of a fucking idiot myself

That's literally what states and war are.

# ? Jun 18, 2018 03:30

Goon Danton: May 24, 2012; Don't forget to show my shitposts to the people. They're well worth seeing.

Grand Theft Autobot posted:

That's literally what states and war are.

jrodefeld posted:

Let's presuppose that private defense agencies and dispute resolution organizations are in the businesses they are in for the purpose of making a profit. Isn't that a supposition that most leftists make about the market economy, that everyone is focused on turning a profit? Well, if that were the case, there would be an overwhelming incentive to NOT wage war between various defense agencies or DROs. War is ALWAYS a losing proposition. What would happen is that each private defense agency and dispute resolution organization would have a contingency plan for a third party arbitrator should the agencies representing different clients come to opposite conclusions about a dispute. Acceptance of a third party arbitrator in such a scenario would be part of the contract that each party signs with the agency that represents them.

I can hear your objection now. You might say "what, war is NOT profitable? That goes against all recorded history and the countless wars and war profiteers that have made a good living off of bloodshed." This is true but the difference is that wars are committed by States that have the unique ability to tax their citizens to finance a war effort and, critically, to print paper money to pay off the debts. The war profiteers align with States and make their money through redistributed wealth.

By contrast, in a Stateless society there would be no taxes, likely no paper money and any defense agency that was foolish enough to want to wage war on other defense agencies would have to finance their mini war themselves. It would never be a profitable enterprise. If any one agency was foolish enough to try, the other agencies would align together to protect their market and subdue the rogue and likely mentally insane company.

There will of course be crime and criminals but they will tend to be made up of the poor and desperate, not established and wealthy businessmen who earned their wealth in a free market and stand to lose a great deal in any prolonged conflict. Now defensive war is another matter entirely. If a foreign nation State was foolish enough to try and conquer a State less territory, a free people who all stand to lose their independence, their prosperity and their way of life will have a great incentive to work together to repel the invading force. Defense agencies will most likely have contracts between them that stipulate a cooperative arrangement should a large foreign Nation State threaten the territory with war. The incentive for an invading State to conquer a Stateless territory would be far less because there is no tax base to take over and profit from, no formal army to surrender and less profit in the exercise. A free people working to defend their own property, as history has shown, are capable of repelling far more powerful armies at a drastically lower cost.

What about the people that "fall through the cracks" and don't have representation with a DRO or private defense agency? In the first place since there is no Utopian system, you have to compare the proposed system to an actually existing system. I'm sure you are not so foolhardy as to think that the poor and vulnerable are being treated well in our current State monopolized "justice" system? We incarcerate more people per capita than any nation on the planet and any nation in world history, most often for petty victim-less "crimes" and infractions. Rather than focusing on restitution to the victim of aggression or fraud, our current State "justice" system focuses on alleged crimes against the State, while mostly de-emphasizing crimes with actual victims. If you are a tax evader, you go to jail for a long time. Don't follow the speed limit? A harsh fine and arrest if you resist. If you use a prohibited substance like marijuana or if you sell said substances to willing buyers? You go to jail for a long time. There are too many meaningless and ridiculous victimless alleged "crimes" to count.

In contrast to any State run "justice" system that exists or has ever existed, I think it can be easily demonstrated that the libertarian State-less alternative based on restitution to the victim of aggression is a far better and more ethical system. There will surely exist charity dispute resolution organizations and defense agencies. Since safety is a commodity that is universally desired by all members of society it will be to everyone's benefit to see the victim of aggression be "made whole" and the perpetrator of aggressive rights violations be held to account. Therefore there will likely be no shortage of people who will volunteer their time and/or money to promote justice for one of those who is not adequately being served by the market.

If you had a rapist on the loose in your neighborhood would you not want to see them punished for their heinous crime? Or would you say, "well, considering the victim was poor and cannot pay a defense agency or DRO for representation I'll just let the criminal live among us without lifting a finger to help." I find it hard to believe that most people wouldn't want to see justice done even for those who are not represented by the market. However, we can expect the market to provide the services of defense and courts far better than any State monopoly and more broadly across society.

No voluntarily paying consumer would want to pay to punish someone for smoking a joint or engaging in victim-less behavior. Only a State that can pass the costs on to the expropriated taxpayer could get away with being predatory, with terrorizing innocents who never used aggression against anyone. Talk about a perversion of "justice".

# ? Jun 18, 2018 03:36

Darkman Fanpage: Jul 4, 2012

Wheeee posted:

It's an in-joke company name to stand in for any generic DRO, or dispute resolution organization, which is basically what it sounds like. Libertarians literally believe that the judicial system should be replaced by private military contractors like Blackwater because reasons

yes, it is precisely as stupid as it sounds

what if GOVERNMENT but instead CORPORATION?

# ? Jun 18, 2018 03:43

Caganer: Feb 15, 2018

DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:

how real is the libertarian to fascist pipeline, and did more Ron Paul types turn into Bernie bros or quasi fash

I flirted with libertarianism in my teens and moved to left libertarianism / dem socialism (not a huge fan of labels but basically I support individual rights and a strong social safety net) after actually reading some Econ and realizing gold standard is wack and invisible hand is bs.

I suspect a large chunk of them are social libertarians who don�t understand economics

like people who worry they�ll make �too much� and go into next tax bracket because they don�t understand marginal tax rates.

# ? Jun 18, 2018 03:53

Grand Theft Autobot: Feb 28, 2008; I'm something of a fucking idiot myself

My libertarian friend today said that instead of Universal Healthcare we should be libertarians and just make more money then we won't need the government to subsidize us.

Makes u think.

# ? Jun 18, 2018 03:55

Goon Danton: May 24, 2012; Don't forget to show my shitposts to the people. They're well worth seeing.

Darkman Fanpage posted:

what if GOVERNMENT but instead CORPORATION?

Eventually from arguing with jrod I realized that it's a bit more specific. Molyneux's DROs are "health insurance companies are the blueprint for utopia." Whereas Hans Hermann Hoppe's covenants are "Homeowners' Associations are the blueprint for utopia."

# ? Jun 18, 2018 03:57

Grand Theft Autobot: Feb 28, 2008; I'm something of a fucking idiot myself

Jrod posts: come for the apparently unrecognized Nazism, stay for the just-so stories that somehow invalidate recorded human experience.

# ? Jun 18, 2018 03:58

MizPiz: May 29, 2013; by Athanatos

Grand Theft Autobot posted:

My libertarian friend today said that instead of Universal Healthcare we should be libertarians and just make more money then we won't need the government to subsidize us.

Makes u think.

What if instead of public roads, we just make more money so we can each build roads to where we want to go.

# ? Jun 18, 2018 04:01

Marx Headroom: May 10, 2007; AT LAST! A show with nonono ~~commercials~~!; Fallen Rib

Pand posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBHicyqMML4

this is exactly the kind of shakeup in youtube recommendations i need rn

# ? Jun 18, 2018 04:07

Dr. Video Games 0081: Jan 19, 2005

Hey in the purge movies when they say all crime is legal doesn't that create a liars paradox? Maybe this is addressed in the movies

# ? Jun 18, 2018 04:10

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

Grand Theft Autobot posted:

My libertarian friend today said that instead of Universal Healthcare we should be libertarians and just make more money then we won't need the government to subsidize us.

Makes u think.

You should tell him that the government makes all the money.

# ? Jun 18, 2018 04:24

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

Dr. Video Games 0081 posted:

Hey in the purge movies when they say all crime is legal doesn't that create a liars paradox? Maybe this is addressed in the movies

Maybe, but it doesn't matter. All regimes require exceptions to the law in order to perpetuate their rule, and The Purge is the formalization of the ultimate exception. It's an exception that proves the need for state rule. In the first movie the justification is psychological, but in the later movies the true motive is revealed to be political.

# ? Jun 18, 2018 04:29

KiteAuraan: Aug 5, 2014; JER GEDDA FERDA RADDA ARA!

rudatron posted:

Whats to stop the DRO setting themselves up as a new state or running a protection racket.

They would be the new state, by like, definition of what a state is, and how they fit in all these weird little ancap fantasies. They'd just also be hiring their own police force instead of paying one with taxes, but the functions the same poo poo.

And they would just become a protection racket for the wealthy and powerful, that's why ancaps are so loving stupid, they want to tear down the state, recreate it, and then hand it over to feudal lords, and claim that's a choice. They're loving idiots.

# ? Jun 18, 2018 04:38

Darkman Fanpage: Jul 4, 2012

an ancap society depends entirely on its wealthiest members NOT being shitheads

# ? Jun 18, 2018 05:06

Darkman Fanpage: Jul 4, 2012

somebody please repost the probability broach

# ? Jun 18, 2018 05:09

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

Darkman Fanpage posted:

somebody please repost the probability broach

for man-rear end

"But Pener, how could this man from a parallel dimension with money nobody accepts just walk into a private bathroom, wash himself and his clothes without paying?"

How indeed.

They've packaged the Probability Broach webcomic into a graphic novel so only the first few chapters are online anymore. The chapter where they go into the alternate history where American settlers had peaceful relations with Native Americans somehow is gone.

Pener Kropoopkin has issued a correction as of 05:21 on Jun 18, 2018

# ? Jun 18, 2018 05:18

Gizmoduck_5000: Oct 6, 2013; Your superior intellect is no match for our primitive weapons!

Wheeee posted:

It's an in-joke company name to stand in for any generic DRO, or dispute resolution organization, which is basically what it sounds like. Libertarians literally believe that the judicial system should be replaced by private military contractors like Blackwater because reasons

yes, it is precisely as stupid as it sounds

So just to make sure I'm understanding this, the court system, a (nominally) objective body of law which workers use to seek redress for grievances against their employers, would be replaced by a for-profit company that are hired to fairly arbitrate between the people with the money to pay for their services and those who don't? But we know that the DRO will arbitrate fairly, because the market is self-regulating and...employers will cease hiring them if they...find in their favor too much o0?

What do ANCAPS think of labor unions and collective bargaining?

Edited: Proofreading.

Gizmoduck_5000 has issued a correction as of 05:29 on Jun 18, 2018

# ? Jun 18, 2018 05:22

Wheeee: Mar 11, 2001; When a tree grows, it is soft and pliable. But when it's dry and hard, it dies.

Hardness and strength are death's companions. Flexibility and softness are the embodiment of life.

That which has become hard shall not triumph.

Gizmoduck_5000 posted:

So just to make sure I'm understanding this, the court system, a (nominally) objective body of law which workers use to seek redress for grievances against their employers, would be replaced by a for-profit company that are hired to fairly arbitrate between the people with the money to pay for their services and those who don't? But we know that the DRO will arbitrate fairly, because the market will weed them out. Essentially employers will cease hiring them if they...find in their favor too much o0?

yes

quote:

What do ANCAPS think of labor unions and collective bargaining?

guess

# ? Jun 18, 2018 05:26

Gizmoduck_5000: Oct 6, 2013; Your superior intellect is no match for our primitive weapons!

Wheeee posted:

yes

guess

Oh okay. So slavery then?

# ? Jun 18, 2018 05:28

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

Gizmoduck_5000 posted:

Oh okay. So slavery then?

If you signed the contract, that means you consented to bondage.

# ? Jun 18, 2018 05:29

Gizmoduck_5000: Oct 6, 2013; Your superior intellect is no match for our primitive weapons!

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

If you signed the contract, that means you consented to bondage.

And would there be jobs available where signing such a contract would not be required as a condition of employment?

# ? Jun 18, 2018 05:31

Wheeee: Mar 11, 2001; When a tree grows, it is soft and pliable. But when it's dry and hard, it dies.

Hardness and strength are death's companions. Flexibility and softness are the embodiment of life.

That which has become hard shall not triumph.

Gizmoduck_5000 posted:

And would there be jobs available where signing such a contract would not be required as a condition of employment?

guess

ayncap bullshit is probably the most infuriatingly stupid ideology

# ? Jun 18, 2018 05:33

Shear Modulus: Jun 9, 2010

Slugnoid posted:

I was beat up by left anarchists in Greece.

I don't usually use forums or Reddit, I usually just post comments on Ancap blogs like Molyneux or Cantwell's blog, but they didn't seem appropriate places to post my story. So here goes, I just wanted to share this with all of you.

Nov 3 I flew to Europe for a Eurotrip type tour. Not a guide or packaged deal, just going around by myself. I paid for half of the trip with the wages I earned over the last two years, my dad paid for the other half. I am 19, I guess that is normal starting college and all. (Before that I worked for my dad's company part time, so I guess you could say he paid for all of it, lol).

I did France and then Italy and then Greece next. I am an Ancap so I wanted to see anarchists in these places. Yes, I know they are different kinds of "anarchists" and not really full anarchists like us. I went to an anarchist book store in Italy and it had a lot of English books, but no Rothbard or Ancap. Like I said, I expected that, not a surprise.

I went to Greece, which everyone knows is famous for its revolutionary anarchism, its economic crisis and everything going on right now. Here I found directions for a local anarchist center. I went and didn't see anybody, but it was covered in graffiti, mostly in Greek so I couldn't read it. Whatever, I started taking pictures. Then some people came out and confronted me.

This should have been my first warning sign something was not right, because photography is not a crime. They were not violent, but they were not friendly, like asking who I was, what I wanted. They all spoke good English actually. Not uncommon in Greece. I said I was a tourist and an anarchist and I just wanted to take pictures. Then they got friendly and told me I should have asked first (but pictures are no NAP violation so I don't know why, but I didn't say anything) and they invited me inside.

We hung out for a while and smoked hash (there is no good dank in Europe as you might find out like in Cali, everyone smokes hash with tobacco which isn't as cool as it sounds). We started talking about politics and anarchism. I was trying to talk about the state, they were like yeah no doubt the state was bad. But they wanted to talk about capitalism, capitalism this and that. This is when we started to get into a debate.

I told them that what they called capitalism is different from the free market. They said capitalism is free markets. And I said I agreed. That is what I am saying. Real capitalism is free markets. And they said yes, that is what we are trying to get rid of. And I said no, but we don't even have that right now. We need more free markets. And everyone at the same time was like "nooo" we are anarchists, we are against capitalism. Anarchists oppose capitalism.

And I said but not anarcho-capitalists. Anarcho-capitalists are the anarchists who support capitalism. I had a fanny pack (yeah, lame I know) for my camera and in that I had this yellow and black bowtie (also super lame, it was a joke but I wasnt wearing it). And I said look, these are the Ancap colors, yellow and black, like versus the communist red and black. Well, these guys had a lot of red and black in the building already so I thought they would get it.

I think that is when it started to get a really bad vibe, really tense in the air. The free market thing was funny, we disagreed but I think they thought I was just confused. Everyone was uncomfortable now. Then someone said markets wont work with democracy. And I said exactly, that's it, democracy is against anarchism. And they kind of agreed, and said yes, we don't have real democracy, just governments, and we needed more democracy. I said no, we need less democracy, democracy is the enemy. And we need to end democracy to have anarchy. Then they were all like "noooo" again. You know that thing people do in groups when everyone all says "nooo" or expresses some disapproval at the same time.

And one of them said "but we do want to stop democracy" and then they kind of spoke back and forth in Greek. I didn't really understand it. And they asked me what I meant.

So I said okay, I had the floor, I was going to tell them about ancapism. And I tried to explain to them some Rothbard and Hoppe. I said the natural order in anarchy is that the best rise to the top, the market picks who is the best. They compete and are peaceful. They said what do we want instead of anarchy. I said we want private owners to own their own land and businesses, and to employ people. They said that is what we have now. I said no, it would be even better. One of the guys said it was like feudalism. And I said it is not feudalism.

Eventually one of the guys spoke up and I thought he was Greek, but he spoke English perfectly so he may have not been. He said he knew what anarcho-capitalism was and that we were basically fascists. He asked me if I thought everything should be private. And I said yes. And he asked me if I thought people were unequal. And I told him yes. And that not everyone would have equal rights. I said everyone has the right to own property and not be done aggression against. But that not everyone had to be treated equally by the owners. He said what about immigrants and racism. And I said that would not happen in a free market, but yes property owners could be racist if they wanted to. They had to respect property.

Then he called me a fascist again, and someone else said I was a fascist. And then they basically all started shouting fascist at me, and one of them grabbed me by the wrists. They pulled me out the door, it was up three floors, and basically drug me down the stairs on my back. It hurt really bad and I remember yelling "you're breaking the NAP" and things like that. "Stop initiating force against me." Then they kicked me around on the ground in the hallway, before they took my camera and threw me outside. I was crying and stuff, I just sat there. I was in shock because it was so sudden. Looking back there were warning signs though.

I think they felt bad for me and gave the camera back, but when I looked later they stole the memory card with all of my Greek photos.

So they initiated force and theft. They broke the NAP. I knew the left anarchists were not real anarchists, but I never knew they would do something that bad.

I wasnt seriously hurt, just kicked around a little, lots of bruises and little cuts. I am fine guys so don't worry. Just needed to share.

this story is a classic

yeah i think certain races are inferior. wait why are you beating me up?

"full anarchists like us"

# ? Jun 18, 2018 05:46

Gizmoduck_5000: Oct 6, 2013; Your superior intellect is no match for our primitive weapons!

Wheeee posted:

guess

ayncap bullshit is probably the most infuriatingly stupid ideology

Wow.

So ANCAPS are pretty much just fascist kleptocrats who believe in slavery, but hide behind a facade of disingenuous rhetoric about individual liberty.

That's pretty much what I assumed in the first place, but I wanted to be sure.

# ? Jun 18, 2018 06:00

Gizmoduck_5000: Oct 6, 2013; Your superior intellect is no match for our primitive weapons!

Shear Modulus posted:

this story is a classic

yeah i think certain races are inferior. wait why are you beating me up?

"full anarchists like us"

Is that copypasta?

EDIT: Nevermind. Just googled it.

# ? Jun 18, 2018 06:02

Wheeee: Mar 11, 2001; When a tree grows, it is soft and pliable. But when it's dry and hard, it dies.

Hardness and strength are death's companions. Flexibility and softness are the embodiment of life.

That which has become hard shall not triumph.

its fake, but what makes it a classic is that its so plausible

# ? Jun 18, 2018 06:04

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

Gizmoduck_5000 posted:

Wow.

So ANCAPS are pretty much just fascist kleptocrats who believe in slavery, but hide behind a facade of disingenuous rhetoric about individual liberty.

That's pretty much what I assumed in the first place, but I wanted to be sure.

Individual liberty is a fatally flawed concept to start off with, because if you think of individual liberty as sacrosanct you run into the problem of how you have a functioning society. A working society needs a reasonably expected level of trust when making deals or cooperating with other people, and to have that expectation means you'll need to punish people for violating agreements or outright harming others - but punishing people also violates their individual liberty, because you've subjected them to a condition against their will. So to get around this problem you come up with something like the Non-Aggression Principle or the rule of contract, which makes an exception for offending individuals to have their liberties violated.

That's no different from how any other society operates, because everyone makes exceptions for certain principles just to be able to enforce the rules. It's wrong to assault people, but if cops don't assault anyone then how would anybody be arrested? The individual liberty stuff is all rhetoric.

# ? Jun 18, 2018 06:12

Gizmoduck_5000: Oct 6, 2013; Your superior intellect is no match for our primitive weapons!

Wheeee posted:

its fake, but what makes it a classic is that its so plausible

If I was a Greek anarchist and fighting with LITERAL fascists, and some turd shows up and starts shooting pics and running his mouth about fascism, I'd assume he's an enemy agent and beat the poo poo out of him too.

# ? Jun 18, 2018 06:15